Not sure what you're talking about, MattManic (no offense), but let me argue my case, JoJoB. Maybe Finitevus and all the other Echidnas are just Knuckles with a few changes made in his coloring and appearance, but Finitevus is a good example of how to do something like that decently. I mean, sure he's recognizable as having the same basic blueprint as Knuckles, but he's also got some unique traits that clearly differentiate him as well. At least he's not just Knuckles' body with some facial hair and different clothing (aka, Locke). He's unique because those design elements have never before appeared in another character; he may be Knuckles underneath it all, but those added features make him cool.
As for the argument that characters have to look similar to be recognizable, I'll agree that it's rather lame. But you have to remember that the Archie guys work on a deadline: I think they just find it easier to adapt the design of a single character to fit multiple different personas rather than coming up with a totally new design for each one. Archie is quite different from Marvel, DC, or other comics: series like Sonic don't get as much attention or uniqueness as characters like the X-Men do. What really matters, so far as I see it, is that if they use a single underlying design they do a good job adapting it to fit other characters, make it look cool for each one, and then show us all that it's not some cheap clone by giving them a unique personality.
As for liking a character who appears to be almost the same as another in appearance, the idea does have a certain appeal, given that it's been used before. Two characters who share many appearance traits interacting with each other has a certain appeal: it's kind of like seeing how two or more beings who look alike can be so different from each other in behavior. Archie's done an impressive job with this: you've got Knuckles, the heroic and somewhat thickheaded hero, and Dr. Finitevus, the villainous and brilliant-if insane-scientist. Don't know if you like that idea, and I'm not trying to convert you if you don't, but some people do.
Sadly, I wish Archie would spend more time developing their characters visually. I don't mean to come off as selfish, but as a collector of the comic, I demand quality. Reusing character designs isn't of any worth. The ring gauntlets are an interesting concept, although for the most part, Finitevus just looks like recycled elements from the comic's past to me (ex. Tobor had the inverted eyes, Luger has the metal surrounding the edges of his muzzle, Dark Legionnaires have bandaged hands and feet, capes/cloaks are common, etc.). There's nothing truly specific about his design (blueprint). I understand there are deadlines, but I would love to see Archie's artists come up with brand new designs and experiment more. I see stock designs like this all the time from fan artists. Jon Gray was a fan artist, but after being hired by Archie to design Finitevus, I would expect him to be able to come up with something different and demonstrate his unique design ability, especially in such a creative position.
Artists need to raise the bar so that they may inspire other young creatives with new ideas. Not recycle something that someone else has done, or is trying to do.
"Details and long hours by themselves do nothing for art. Intelligent, creative choices make art." -John K.
What I'm saying is that comparing Knuckles to Finitevus and saying they look the same except for a few differences is like saying Denzel Washington and Leonardo DiCaprio look the same, except for a few differences. They're the same species, there's only so far you can stretch it.
You know, there are times that I can't tell Sally and Alica apart(just pointing out how much Sally looks like her mom).
Thank you, Matt, because that's exactly what I was getting at before. All of us look the "same" based on JoJo's standard.
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I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would like a character that looks practically the same, or even a character [Scourge] who is the same as another person?
Mainly because personality has a lot more to do with liking a character than design. Sure, you can like the way a character looks, but most people either like or dislike a character based on how he/she/it acts.
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You could still come up with a lot of different designs for one animal and still make it recognizable (regardless if it's Archie or Sega's doing).
Possibly, but I haven't seen it done yet in anything that I can think of that I've ever read or watched. So, an example would be very beneficial.
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As for the argument that characters have to look similar to be recognizable, I'll agree that it's rather lame.
Not really. You know a person is a person based on certain traits that separate people from other species. Similarly, you know a character is a hedgehog or echidna or rabbit or fox or whatever based on their traits. Missing those traits, then you get arguments like "is the new Amy an echidna" or "if Arlo is an armadillo why doesn't he look like Mighty" among others.
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You know, there are times that I can't tell Sally and Alica apart.
Alicia and Sally are mother and daughter. If my mother didn't have gray hair, a lot of people would mistake my mother and I because we look so much alike. From a distance or when we both have our hair covered in a hat, people do mistake the two of us.
There is ample truth to that, Red. It's innate too, my birth father has returned to the scene after some 16 years of absence and I've been told we look, walk, laugh, and mounds of other idiosyncrasies the same.
More times than not kids very much resemble their parents so much that they can easily be mistaken for each other.
~Tobe
I have the opposite problem. My family is 'blended' and some of us look nothing alike. My sis and I have different skin tones, hair styles, eye color etc. and of Dad's 4 kids, I'm the only one who wears glasses. When I went to see my grandma in the hospital earlier this year, the nurse stopped me saying 'only family were alowed to visit'. Took awhile to convince her that yes, I was part of the family. :/
So I guess my point is, not all of us follow templates. But there are sometimes when it would be easier if we did.
I don't mind if comics take shortcuts with character design as long as the stories are enganging and the art is passable. The Brotherhood pic with it's static poses is a little dull, but not fugly enough to have me recoil in horror and bleach my eyeballs.
Aside from changing the fur color, adding hair, dread decorations, extraneous features (like Knuckles's knuckles), and implants (if the echidna is a Legionnaire), what else could the artists do to individualize the echidna species?
From what I've seen, the only things most of them have in common are the dreadlocks, the muzzle, and eye shape. You can only alter those so much.
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What I'm saying is that comparing Knuckles to Finitevus and saying they look the same except for a few differences is like saying Denzel Washington and Leonardo DiCaprio look the same, except for a few differences. They're the same species, there's only so far you can stretch it.
Human beings are all made up of different sizes and shapes, not to mention distinct features which make them unique. Essentially, these features are their design. When coming up with reference material for characters, many cartoons are caricatures of real people, even animals. Artists refer to the real world for ideas, and make their own observations, as opposed to seeing the world through someone else's point of view. This process isn't incorporated into the comic. In the comic, a stock design (ex. Knuckles' template) is used over and over again to produce a "new" character, topped with details (ex. a belt, a jacket, facial hair, etc) and possibly a different color. Fan characters are created like this all the time. This kind method is only cementing the comic into a formula which hinders improvement and creativity.
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All of us look the "same" based on JoJo's standard.
I didn't say that.
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Mainly because personality has a lot more to do with liking a character than design. Sure, you can like the way a character looks, but most people either like or dislike a character based on how he/she/it acts.
In the case of Scourge, I was given the impression that he was meant to be "redesigned" in order to differentiate him from just being another Sonic clone. This is simply a matter of opinion, but the evil twin thing is a cliche. I was expecting Scourge to be developed into an entirely new character, visually and personality-wise.
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So, an example would be very beneficial.
Ever watch a Foghorn Leghorn cartoon? A variety of different designs, most of them chickens.
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You know, there are times that I can't tell Sally and Alica apart.
Alicia is the result of a design with little effort. She's just a taller Sally with a new wardrobe. Sure, some people may look like their parents, but in a comic I wouldn't find anything interesting in a character who looks almost identical to another.
Alicia should've stuck with the rounded ears. It would have made her less of a Sally clone and leant a bit more towards Sally's hybrid status (father's ears, mother's tail).
Well, wasn't Alicia a chipmunk? Chipmunks have pointed ears.
They have long tails, too, but...
Chipmunks have tiny, pointy tails; unless there's a regional descrepency I'm unaware of.
That is: tiny in relation to the tail of a squirrel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Chipmunk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_Chipmunk
I wouldn't call those tiny. Even if it's not as bushy as a squirrel's, it's still about the length of their bodies.
So maybe there's some sub-species with a short tail, or else it's a big misconception (Chip and Dale have short tails like Sally, don't they?).
You can't trust a chipmunk anyway
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Human beings are all made up of different sizes and shapes, not to mention distinct features which make them unique.
Compare Sergeant, Pravda, Gala-Na, Julie-Su, Enerjak, Knuckles, Thunderhawk, Lara-Le, Wynmacher, Finitevus and many other "named" echidnas in Archie and you'd find the same. It's even more obvious if you actually looked at the characters in the background drawn by Spaz or Galan or Valentino or even Allen. Some are fatter (Pravda & Wynmacher) and others thinner (particularly an unnamed echidna Vector was hitting on in one issue). Some have extremely distinct features (Thunderhawk, Sergeant, & Finitevus are obvious ones). However, just like human beings, they have "stock" features or else they couldn't be recognized as echidnas.
There are plenty of differences between characters that are based on the "original" one.
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Ever watch a Foghorn Leghorn cartoon? A variety of different designs, most of them chickens.
I have and I'll guess we'll have to just disagree because those are definitely not different designs. It's the same basic body type only just stretched to be a little bigger or smaller with regards to those chickens and roosters--and most of the difference tends to focus on whether the chicken or rooster was a kid or an adult. I see the same done in Archie.
You all make excellent points. I agree that the personality is more important that the appearance: aren't all the twin/evil clone/doppelganger pairings fun because characters who look so similar have such different personalities? Besides, as numerous posts have said, all species have similar basic traits that make them recognizable.
To those who still complain that the Echidnas look too much like Knuckles, let me refer to what people have said about family members having similar traits. Lest we forget, most of the prominent Echidnas in the comics are related to Rad Red, however distantly, so it makes sense that they might share a few traits. I know that doesn't apply to everyone, but it does make some sense. True Red, I definitely agree that characters whose designs are based on an "original" have plenty to distinguish themselves. So, it doesn't really matter if the Echidnas or any other characters look a little alike, so long as we know that they're all unique.
Now then, as fun as this topic has been, I'd like to get back on track. Does anyone have any more theories about Dr. Finitevus? You know: what the deal is with his appearance, what his powers are, the story behind his origins-anything will do.
CCL, it's a very big misconception, and I blame Disney for it.
Chipmunks have long or long-ish tails. I can't think of a species that doesn't, anyway.
Eh? I could've sworn that the chipmunks around where I live had small tails.
I'll agree that there are misconceptions about animals from various media, including Disney. However, I would like to try and do something that I've been trying to do for several posts now: get back on topic. I'm not trying to be rude, but this thread is about Dr. Finitevus: theories on his origins, powers, and what may happen to him. While I'm not putting down conversation on other topics, I would like everyone to remember that this thread is about the albino Echidna. If you're not going to talk very much about him, can you at least inject one little comment about him in your posts?
Please, remember the purpose of this thread.
All the chipmunks I've seen have had short tails as well. =
Spectre, you really don't need to do a daily post telling people to get back on topic. Conversations derail and will fix themselves back up accordingly, and if they go too far a mod will put us back on track. Just let the conversation flow as it will, especially since there's not really that much that can be said Finitevus for the time being.
You're right, MattManic; I'm not a moderator, so I have no business telling people to get back on topic. And I know that this will eventually probably get back on topic. Of course, there's really not much point to continuing the discussion on this thread-at least not in regards to Finitevus' origins-since the preview for #182 revealed that the doc's tragic beginnings will be expounded on in that issue.
Am I the only one who believes that Finitevus has something to do with Moritori Rex? I mean, Rex hasn't been seen for years, and Ian did say that'd we be finding out the fates of him and Remington in an arc that he was working on. (And it's undoubtedly the "Enerjak Reborn" arc.)
^ :O That brings up a good point. Who knows, really. (Except for Ian of course) 
Sometimes, I don't even think Ian knows 
Bean, I'll admit that Moritori Rex is a possible alter ego for Dr. Finitevus. However, the same situation going on over in the issue #181 thread applies here: there are a number of candidates for Finitevus just as there are for the new Enerjak. Let's just look at those who have been suggested and haven't really been confirmed disproven:
Moritori Rex
Menniker
Kragok
A member of the Brotherhood of Guardians (obviously excluding Locke)
Luger
Knuckles (the insane possible future version from the original Lara-Su's timeline)
Yanar
New character (while I don't like this idea, he could just be a character we'd never been introduced to in any form before #139-granted, a very cool character that we'd never been intro'd to)
Now, there might be a few more than this, but these seem like the main contenders. If you guys are wondering about Yanar, this same subject has been brought up over in the #182 thread. Anyway, these guys are the ones who haven't really been disproven, because we have no evidence as of yet that they are or are not Finitevus. One other guy I can think of who was proposed is Xenin, but he was seen in the Egg Grape Chamber just after Finitevus was seen on Angel Island, so that theory's basically in the toilet. As for the rest of these guys, a number of them are highly unlikely. but they're all we've got so far.
Basically, this topic is just the same thing that's going on over at #182. This one was here first, but with that thread up there's not much point in continuing. Just bring your ideas on the good doctor with you.
Actually, Spectre, Kragok is pretty much confirmed not to be anyone as Kragok was killed by Tobor's kamikaze attack, and Ian has said that when someone dies that's pretty much the end of it. Though there still is a small possiblity that it could be him, but the chances are slim to none and Slim has just rode out of town, as my daddy says.
I only raised Yanar as a joke, I'm pretty willing to bet it's not him.
As FMR says Ian's working on a pretty strict dead=dead policy, not to mention he's probably going to try and avoid raising plot points and characters from 75 issues ago so as not to confuse new readers. On that note I think we can rule out Menniker, Kragok, Luger, Xenin, and Future!Knuckles.
I'm still pretty confident that Enerjak is going to be Finitevus; it doesn't make sense for it to be anyone else unless Finitevus is playing a deeper game, and making his enemies into pissed off, near-omnipotent enemies isn't a good idea in any situation.
Well, MattManic, I find that rather doubtful since: Spoilers (Select To Read): both Enerjak and Finitevus appear on the cover of #182, unless that's just a nod to the fact that that issue is about Finitevus' origin.
Xenin's already been ruled out; we saw him right after Finitevus confronted Hunter, so either he can transform between those two alter egos and left the Egg Grape Chamber or it's not him. I've also heard that, apparently, Yanar has not been involved in any situation-so far as we know-that could have resulted in his transformation into Finitevus; he wasn't the dude wearing the Chaos Syphon suit in #93 or whatever issue it was. I forgot that Kragok's death has been confirmed, I've never had much confidence in the return of Menniker anyway, I personally hope that it's going to be Luger, and I thought that the Future Knuckles was an interesting suggestion.
I guess I should revise the qualificactions on that list to Echidnas who have been suggested and not totally disproven, while a few who have basically been disproven have been eliminated. Again, see the spoiler I put in here for evidence against the Finitevus-is-the-new-Enerjak theory. Finitevus strikes me as being similar Mammoth Mogul: he has schemes and plans so intricate and secretive that it's almost impossible to figure them out without seeing them play out. So until we see in #182 the story of how Finitevus came to be, or in #181 who the new Enerjak is, we can't really know for sure.
And forgive me if I'm not up to date on all of Ian's policies; I've never really bothered to look up anything to do with him, and the little that I've heard makes me kinda mad. Assuming that the new Enerjak isn't Knuckles, it is just messed up to pit his arch-nemesis against Sonic. But that's what we're talking about over in the #181 topic, so I'll shut up now.
Another thing I just remembered. Finitevus has the black birthmark of a Guardian. Does this perhaps mean a Guardian once lived in Albion and married an Echidna that would be Finitevus' mother? Or is Finitevus a forgotten Guardian of some sort?
Black Mark? Wasn't that indicative of one of the Legionnares x_x. I can't remember, but one of them had a black mark...
No, none of the Legionnaires have been shown with a ring mark around their neck, but it stands to reason that if the line of Grandmasters are the direct descendants of Dimitri like the Guardians are of Edmund, than it stands to reason that they too have white ring around the neck. Anywho, Finny just has an inverse Guardian ring around his neck.
So Finitevus is an Anti-Guardian!
*shot*
Perhaps, but Spectre could be right and Finitevus could be Lueger or Moritori corrupted by magic of some sort to make him white and his ring being black.
Well, FMR, I'm surprised-and pleased, I must admit-that you actually think my theory has some merit. Of course, it really has just as much chance as any theories that have been suggested here, but it's still nice to here it.
As for Finitevus' black ring, I've never really thought about that seriously. I thought it might have some dark connections to the Guardian line back when I first read about it, but there's really no way to know for sure. It could well be some sort of altered version of the Guardian birthmark, especially if Dimitri and his descendants also had the white crescent-we don't really know because none of them have been seen with their torsos uncovered, which is just another thing that distinguishes a number of the Echidnas from Knuckles: they wear clothes besides gloves and shoes.
Anyway, the ring might be an interesting clue in to Finitevus' origins-or it might just be one of those recycled design elements that somebody in here kept saying that Archie used. Either way, it just adds to Finitevus' mystique and unusual appearance. Going by my main theory, it probably has something to do with whatever made Finitevus what he is today, but we won't know until #182 comes out, will we?
Ian made a point of mentioning Fini's "dark mark" in his data file back in the #160s. There's no way it's not important.
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Well, FMR, I'm surprised-and pleased, I must admit-that you actually think my theory has some merit. Of course, it really has just as much chance as any theories that have been suggested here, but it's still nice to here it.
Dude, don't be so surprised; you have some good theories, man, you just need to work on your sarcasm detection and how to take a joke and you'll be pretty fine. Also, don't get so discouraged when someone with more knowledge corrects you or proves you wrong it happens and it just makes you wiser.
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especially if Dimitri and his descendants also had the white crescent-we don't really know because none of them have been seen with their torsos uncovered
I don't see why they wouldn't; I mean Dimitri and Edmund were brothers and if other brothers, like Aaron and Jordan, had the same ring it would stand to reason they did. Plus, I'm quite sure their ancestors, the ones that found out about the White Comet and put AI into the sky, were also shown with the white collar ring; if it goes that far back than the grandmasters have to have the white ring as well which probably means Julie-Su has one as well.
o.O Julie-Su has one? No, we've seen her with her vest off.
At Knux b-day party? Maybe? No? What about at Knux's funeral? No? Drat? NO YES AT THE PARTY WHERE HE KISSES HER!
No mark!
YES Personal Pride point for DL +1 .
(I'm just regaining memory, so sue me 
..Though that can never stop the mystical art that is Ret-conning...)
and wait...Moritori disappeared from Haven..did Knux ever tell them that they've been infiltrated all this time?
Answering your question Darkest light, yeah Knuckles did Uncover Moritoris identity and he even beated him up but Moritori manages to escape.
No, I knew Moritori was found out by Knuckles. But did Knuckles ever tell anyone else? And I mean really, if Moritori always knew waht the Brotherhood was doing, you'd think he'd stop them somehow.
But no, he acted like a Guardian. Anyone think he actually got sucked into actual Guardianship-I mean, someone had to raise Spectre...
And that brings me to another point...
Maybe Finetivus was trained by Moritori. Mori's been there for quite a while-he could have trained Finetivus as a contingency plan--omg that would be the sickest twist ever!!!
Man, you really know how to make a guy feel good FMR! Thanks for the advice, and I'll do my best to work on that.
I, personally, don't recall any instances where Dimitri or any of his descendants were shown with the birthmark. Of course, I haven't read all the comics yet, so I really don't know for sure. My earlier comment of not seeing them comes from the fact that those guys are always wearing some time of clothing on their upper bodies at least, even if it's not their trademark outfits. Of course, Julie-Su has worn a number of outfits that don't look like they'd conceal it, but maybe she just didn't get whatever genetics produce that ring or it doesn't appear on females of the bloodline-we don't know because we haven't seen Janelle-Li's ring, either, so we don't know if that's how it would work out.
But overall, all the Grand Masters have had their marks-if they have them-obscured somehow, by the following methods:
Dimitri-lab coat, ancient Echidna general uniform, metallic torso armor
Menniker-Echidna tunic, Dark Legion robes
Moritori-Tobor disguise, green 'M' shirt
Luger-vest, and I'm not sure if they've ever had a decent view of him
Kragok-Dark Legion robes
Lien-Da-leather jacket, belly shirt
Julie-Su-vest, nightgown...can't think of anything else
Remington-EST uniform, concentration camp wifebeater, Dark Legion robes
I personally hope that Moritori was either bedridden from the fight with Tobor for so long or else so busy with Guardian duties that he didn't have the chance to raise Spectre-I can see the black Guardian having a tragic origin story, but that would be almost too cruel. I just think that whatever Spectre's secrets are-and I hope that they will be addressed in the Enerjak arc along with the rest of the Echidna stuff-that they shouldn't be related to the jerk posing as his father.
I could see Finitevus and Moritori having some kind of relationship, though I find a rivalry comes to mind more quickly than a master-pupil deal. Think about it: assuming that Moritori didn't keel over while Sonic was gone, he used to be one of the top-ranking advisors to the Grand Master, aka Dimitri. When Lien-Da took over, Finitevus became her closest advisor, and Moritori would have found himself replaced by a mysterious newcomer. Naturally, he'd hate the guy who took his job, and I imagine that Finitevus is the sort of villain who would enjoy taunting him over that. Still, I suppose Moritori could have had something to do with Finitevus-it's as plausible as any other theories on his origins.
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it doesn't appear on females of the bloodline
Doesn't Lara-Su have the birthmark, though?
True, but you have to remember that she was Knuckles' daughter as well as Julie-Su's. We can assume that Janelle-Li had the mark as well, but we don't know if the same holds true for any female members of the House of Dimitri-for that matter, we don't know if any of them even HAVE the mark. While we could assume that they do since Dimitri and Edmund were basically twin brothers, we have to be logical and realize that whatever bit of genetic code gave Edmund and his descendants the mark may not have been present in Dimitri.
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whatever Spectre's secrets
Do we even know that Spectre has any secrets to be revealed? Black fur and a travelling cloak do not an enigma make - could just be that Spectre's a real drama queen.
No more than the rest of the Brotherhood.
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o.O Julie-Su has one?
I never said she did; I'm just saying that if the descendants of Dimitri and Edmund both have the collar ring then Julie-Su, as a descendant of Dimitri, would have to have a collar ring just like anyone else in the family. Plus, I don't know if the black dress that Julie wore to Knux's party would have been low enough to show the ring if she does have one, and since they aren't going to show her naked, we may never see if she has one or not.
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Man, you really know how to make a guy feel good FMR! Thanks for the advice, and I'll do my best to work on that.
Hey, man, I try; I'm a nice guy and I don't like seeing people beat themselves up especially when they shoudn't. Though sometimes, I'm afraid I come off as being smart sometime even when it's an instnce I'm not.
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I personally hope that Moritori was either bedridden from the fight with Tobor for so long or else so busy with Guardian duties that he didn't have the chance to raise Spectre-I can see the black Guardian having a tragic origin story, but that would be almost too cruel.
I don't know though; I mean the robes that he wears is so much like a Dark Legionaire and his personality is darker and more brooding then the rest. So, he may have a little Legionaire influence in him though not enough to make him evil.
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assuming that Moritori didn't keel over while Sonic was gone, he used to be one of the top-ranking advisors to the Grand Master, aka Dimitri.
Are you saying Mori was not a Grand Master or are you just saying he was a high-ranking advisor once he rejoin the Legion ranks?
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Doesn't Lara-Su have the birthmark, though?
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True, but you have to remember that she was Knuckles' daughter as well as Julie-Su's.
IIRC, I thought that "white ring" was just an white undershirt not the actual ring, and just now looking at pictures from Wiki, I still can't really tell if the "ring" is part of her fur or part of her clothes. I guess we'll never know for sure about the female members of the House of Bryon since the female characters always have their chest covered up.
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we have to be logical and realize that whatever bit of genetic code gave Edmund and his descendants the mark may not have been present in Dimitri.
But like I said, the ancestors of Dimitri and Edmund has been depicted as having the ring to so it looks like it is a dominant trait that is their all the time; plus, the idea that the Grandmasters have a white ring too would explain how Hawking could have possibly thought Mori was Tobor unless some of Mori's fur was burned off.
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IIRC, I thought that "white ring" was just an white undershirt not the actual ring, and just now looking at pictures from Wiki, I still can't really tell if the "ring" is part of her fur or part of her clothes. I guess we'll never know for sure about the female members of the House of Bryon since the female characters always have their chest covered up.
Well, in this picture it definitely looks like a part of her fur to me:
It does, but if you have the issue, you would see that the red on her is a red shirt and then you wouldn't be able to tell if it was part of the fur or clothes.
Hmm...well I guess then there's really no way to tell if she has the birthmark unless she's been shown with just the vest on or something.
