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Black fur and a travelling cloak
it's not easy to make out under his helmet-thing, but i thought he had red fur and the blackness is just the shading caused by his head-gear?
If operating under Ken's ground rules for character design, Dimitri did not have a ring--only Edmund, and only Edmund's descendents have it.
Lara-Su does have the ring. It was made obvious in a few panels, though yes she does wear a shirt that has a white collar so sometimes it's not obvious. It's similar to the fact that she doesn't have to be drawn with "knuckles" either if operating under Ken's ground rules for her design.
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it's not easy to make out under his helmet-thing, but i thought he had red fur and the blackness is just the shading caused by his head-gear?
If operating under Ken's design rules, that is the correct style unless Mike has changed it (which we won't know until we see Spectre again). It's just that anyone who bought the entire Knuckles series knows that was a re-write started around SSS#14 just like the change in the order of Knuckles' ancestors back in Sonic #109. In the Knuckles series, you saw Spectre's hand & head without being covered and it was obvious that it was black (and even more obvious that his eyes were red--something else that was changed).
Spectre's gotta have some kinda mystery behind him. Sure, you could explain the black cloak and helmet as being raised by Moritori impersonating Tobor, along with his rather fierce hatred towards the Dark Legion, but what about the cloud of fog? No other character, Dark Legion or otherwise, has ever had anything like that. Besides, we saw Spectre as an infant, and he didn't look much like he does now-those cute little eyes did not look red, they looked more like green. Just like Finitevus, I believe Spectre underwent a transformation at one point, and as a result has become a different class of Echidna than any other. I certainly hope that his fur really is black; after all, we've seen a ton of Echidnas with red, brown, or purple fur, but Spectre's the only guy we've seen with black!
FMR, you are a nice person, and I am honored to have made your acquaintance.
The whole House of Dimitri having the ring deal (where did that Byron thing come from again?) is a mystery that we won't likely ever find out the answer too. Members of the Grand Master line may have it, they may not-I hope they do, since that might support my Luger is Finitevus theory (though I know you guys are probably a bit sick of hearing about that). But it's not something that's ever really likely to be revealed: as somebody said, Julie-Su's never going to be shown naked, neither is Lien-Da, and all the guys in the Grand Master line are almost always covered from the neck down to the waist. Lara-Su has the ring, but that could obviously be just from Knuckles and not from Julie-Su at all. As for Dimitri having it because Edmund had it and it appears to have always been a dominant trait among Knuckles' ancestors, how do we know that Dimitri's parents' genetics didn't work out so that Edmund ended up with the mark trait and Dimitri didn't?
I suppose you could explain Spectre's unusual attributes as being some kind of dramatic act, but he doesn't strike me as that kind of a guy. There've been a couple of scans I've seen from the Knuckles comics-courtesy of the Knuckles Haven fansite, unless I'm remembering wrong-that depicted Spectre when he wasn't in angry or serious mode, and he actually looked somewhat depressed. Another tragic origin for one of the Brotherhood would be cliche, but it certainly wouldn't be surprising.
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FMR, you are a nice person, and I am honored to have made your acquaintance.
Why thank you; you don't know how good that makes me feel inside to think you're honored to know me; I am humbled and right back at ya! 
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where did that Byron thing come from again?
Bryon is Edmund's and Dimitri's dad and, now that I think about it, I believe their mom's name was Angel-La, which is why they "renamed" the Floating Island to Angel Island in honor of her.
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how do we know that Dimitri's parents' genetics didn't work out so that Edmund ended up with the mark trait and Dimitri didn't?
Because the genetics never did work out differently among the Guardians which is a line several generations old, I think that if genetics could get rid of the ring then it would have been gone by now in the guardian lineage. That plus the fact that the ring lasted from the White Comet generation to Knuckles is pretty solid proof that it can never be erased from the family; also, like I said Aaron and Jordan were brothers and they had the white guardian ring so it appears on brothers as well.
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If operating under Ken's design rules, that is the correct style unless Mike has changed it (which we won't know until we see Spectre again). It's just that anyone who bought the entire Knuckles series knows that was a re-write started around SSS#14 just like the change in the order of Knuckles' ancestors back in Sonic #109. In the Knuckles series, you saw Spectre's hand & head without being covered and it was obvious that it was black (and even more obvious that his eyes were red--something else that was changed).
Like I said before, I believe Ian said that to him Spectre's fur was black, course don't quote me on that but I'm like 95% sure he said that somewhere, but I'm not gonna check the Ask Ian thread again to confirm or deny it, though.
Ah, now I remember that thing about Byron, and I believe you're right about the whole Angel-La=Angel Island thing. Glad to know that you return my pleasure at being able to discuss this stuff with you.
Yeah, I guess the whole Guardian ring deal is a bit over my head. Of course, unless something happens so that we see a member of the House of Dimitri with their torso clothing ripped off-or not wearing any, in case it's a guy-we'll never really know. The idea that the Guardian ring and Finitevus' are connected would support my Luger theory, but sadly that's looking less likely by the day. I mean, how would the guy have ended up in Albion?
Anyway, I guess we'll just have to wait and see about Finitevus until #182 comes around. We'll get all the answers there, though speculating what may happen has been fun. It'll be even more fun if we learn that some of our ideas were right!
Actually, does anyone else think Archie copied Dr. Finitevus from Dr. Zachary from the Fleetway series?
I mean think about it.
Two evil echidnas. Both are white. Both have "Doctor" in their name...both act decent but always having some kind of alterior motive.
Granted, I'm not THAT familiar with Fleetway...but it just seeeems like it to me...
I wouldn't go so far and say "copy".
Maybe homage?
Just for the record, Ian confirmed that Dimitri and his descendants (Menniker/Moritori/Luger/Kragok/Lien-Da/Julie-Su - am I missing any?) also have the white ring.
When? Was it in the Ask Ian thread or at his own forums? Be sure because we don't need another Ian said this, Ian said that scenario. BTW,you forgot Remington.
Ooh, Remington, of course. And that answers the question of how he knew he was Kragok's son - I've always wondered that.
It was from the Ask Ian thread here; sorry, I should have provided a link.
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Does Julie-Su or any of Dimitri's desendants have a Guardian Ring that cloaks/vests etc. cover up?
Both Edmund and Dimitri had the ring. Since the ring endured the generations to show up on Knuckles, I think we can assume everyone on Dimitri's side did as well. I also take into consideration that Moritori Rex's mistaken identity wouldn't have come across if he shared Tobor's mark.
It's fairly common knowledge online that Athair was meant to be the one Guardian without the mark. However I don't believe this was ever directly stated and thus isn't necessarily canon. Since Athair doesn't have a body anymore, either, the point is rather moot.
Okay, cool, and no problem about not giving the link, but if I didn't someone would probably be smart about you not giving one. Anyway, I'm glad I and Ian were thinking alike; then again great minds and all.
Man, that Moritori/Tobor situation should have been a dead giveaway-even if you'd suffered major injuries, how could it have removed the white mark? Of course, I'm not sure I entirely like the idea of the Dark Legion and the Brotherhood sharing the mark-it kind of takes away from the unique attribute by which you can always identify a Guardian.
Finitevus and Zachary do have a number of similarities, I'll admit-I know virtually squat about Fleetway as well, but I do know about Zachary. I would like to reinforce, however, that I don't think Zachary is anywhere near as cool as Finitevus: white furred cyborg evil genius Echidnas they may both be, but all Zachary's got is a robotic arm with a built-in missile launcher; Finitevus has powers.
Speaking of the powers, anyone have any more ideas about what they might be? I know we've talked about the Black Emerald, him being a former Knight of Aurora who learned some stuff from the Order of Ixis, and him being the guy who wore the suit when Chaos Knuckles was put in that Chaos Syphon, but do we have any other theories? I've considered that his powers might have something to do with Order-the opposite energy of Chaos-but that's mostly just a fan trend. And his powers have been hinted at as having technological origins, going by his official comic bio. So, any ideas?
Perhaps he was an experiment of Albion scientists to make their own Guardian to counteract Chaos Knuckles?
Perhaps he was an experiment of Albion scientists to make their own Guardian to counteract Chaos Knuckles?
Possibly. But how then did they get involved with the DL? Errr...well how did Finitevus get involved with the DL?
I'm kind of wondering how Albion knew about Dimitri becoming Enerjak in the first place...not to go off topic or anything...
but could someone explain more about the "Knights of Aurora/Albion" or whatever for me? ^^;
Sure. During The Darkest Storm (#163) Mogul & Naugus had a duel over the possesion of the sword/crown as both wanting the artifacts to further their own take-over-the-world plots. Naugus got PWN'd. He asked how Mogul knew so much about magic and was told that Mogul founded the Order of Ixis long ago and was boss of a bunch of wizardy types that wanted to rule over Mobius. They were stopped by The Albion Knights of Aurora, most if not all of Mogul's Order were slain in battle. And that's all were told about them.
Fini's reason for working with the DL has not been explained as of yet.
Well explained, Miss Puar. Someone in this topic suggested that Finitevus may have been one of the Knights of Aurora who crushed the Order of Ixis, and that he may have uncovered the magical knowledge left behind and been corrupted by it.
That idea of an Albion Guardian sounds interesting, and he probably would have left them because he wouldn't want to be anyone's pawn. As for joining the Dark Legion, we don't know why he joined as of yet, but it's quite possible that he just wanted to get himself into a position of power. Besides, where else does an Echidna rejected by society go?
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I'm kind of wondering how Albion knew about Dimitri becoming Enerjak in the first place...not to go off topic or anything...
I believe that Gayla-Na (sp?) said the Brotherhood has an open communications with Albion and that Albion had the original discs of Dimitri's transformation because of it.
Anyone else notice 'Albion' is darned close to 'Albino' ?
Just throwing that out there ^_^;
That's because they're both derived from the word "Albus", which means white. Albion's the ancient name for England, the home of the "white" people.
Haha, yes. But I was more referring to the possibilty of a already-been-established link between Albion, and the fact that Fin is Albino.
Ha, but wutevs. XP
Actually, Finitevus' status as an albino seems a bit questionable to me these days. I think his coloring results from a transformation, which means that it's not natural. Ergo, I don't think he really qualifies as an albino.
He can be white without being Albino. You wouldn't call Shadow African, would you?
Don't know who show is, but I'll take your word for it. I'm not saying that just because he's not a real albino means he isn't white; I'm just saying that I don't think the fur color is naturally occurring.
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Ooh, Remington, of course. And that answers the question of how he knew he was Kragok's son - I've always wondered that.
It was from the Ask Ian thread here; sorry, I should have provided a link.
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Question: Does Julie-Su or any of Dimitri's desendants have a Guardian Ring that cloaks/vests etc. cover up?
Answer: Both Edmund and Dimitri had the ring. Since the ring endured the generations to show up on Knuckles, I think we can assume everyone on Dimitri's side did as well. I also take into consideration that Moritori Rex's mistaken identity wouldn't have come across if he shared Tobor's mark.
It's fairly common knowledge online that Athair was meant to be the one Guardian without the mark. However I don't believe this was ever directly stated and thus isn't necessarily canon. Since Athair doesn't have a body anymore, either, the point is rath
Am I the only one who sees this as problematic (especially in Julie-Su's and Remington's cases) continuity-wise?
Julie-Su didn't know she was a descendent of Dimitri until Simon told her so in SSS#11. Granted, her memory had been erased by Kragok and Lien-Da, but it's pretty well certain she knew about the Guardian's mark. (How else would she have recognized Knuckles as a Guardian when she first met/attacked him?) You'd think she'd wonder why she had one, too.
And speaking of Lien-Da: She's worn some pretty low-cut clothing over the years (especially the black catsuit she was introduced in), and yet we've never seen even a sliver of a white ring on her chest.
Then there's the matter of Remington. His parentage was first hinted at (though fans didn't realize it at the time) in the Dark Alliance arc (I think it was called, the election arc, anyway). The Legion's candidate tried to blackmail Remington by hinting Remington had skeletons in his closet, or something to that effect. And Remington seemed to have no idea what he was talking about, and to think he was making it up.
Either Remington's a good actor or he, like Julie-Su, hadn't the slightest inkling of his relation to Dimitri, a virtual impossibility if he bore the Guardian's mark.
The only other time Rem's origins have been alluded to in the comic, I think, was in STH#118, when he and Lien-Da ran into each other on the way to find out what happened to Knuckles and Dimitri. Remington was curt to her, causing Lien-Da to think, "If he only knew whom he truly was addressing!" This seems to indicate that Lien-Da, at least, was convinced that Remington remained ignorant of his true parentage.
Add to this the fact that Remington has been in close proximity to both Kragok and Lien-Da in the course of the comic, and hasn't betrayed even a hint of unease or confliction, and you have only two real explanations:
a) Remington has been consciously deceiving everyone around him for years now, which (besides running contrary to his established character) would be exceedingly difficult in a city where everyone from his doctor to his girlfriend knows about the Guardian's mark, and would ask awkward questions were they ever to see it on him, OR
b) Remington was truly unaware of his origins, a virtual impossibility if he bore the Guardian's mark. Seriously, he worked closely with the Brotherhood, how could he NOT wonder why he had the same mark as them?
So you see, of course, that the idea of Dimitri's descendents having the Guardian's mark raises more problems (3) than it solves (1), and the one question it does resolve (Moritori's impersonating Tobor) can be explained away by other means.
For example, I've always assumed that Moritori Rex must have sustained injuries to his torso that were severe enough to temporarily or permanently obscure the place where the mark would be, if he had it. Even if he didn't sustain these injuries as a result of being trapped in a collapsing building, he could have deliberately inflicted them on himself (most likely before the battle), since his plan all along had been to impersonate a Guardian.
(What actually bothers me more about the Moritori-Tobor fiasco is the question of how Moritori Rex could have received treatment, as Tobor, for such severe injuries. We're honestly supposed to believe that, besides looking so much alike, he and Tobor had the same blood type and Rh factor, too? Coincidences pile up like junk mail in comics, don't they? But I digress.)
And (just when you thought you were almost clear of the thick brambles of my nitpicking) I'd also like to take a minute to discuss Dimitri and his Guardian's mark, or lack thereof. I'm fairly certain the only "proof" we've seen that Dimitri has/had the mark is his portrayal, in his natural form, in the (very early) Knuckles back-story that described the origins of Enerjak. But you may notice, too, that all of the echidnas in that storyline look more or less alike, and don't exhibit the diversity of fur color, clothing, hairstyles, and head-spine-length that we've come to expect from the Echidnaopolitan populace.
Many have speculated (myself included) that this was because the story was told from Knuckles' perspective: Knuckles, who hadn't seen another echidna besides Locke for about ten years at that point, Knuckles, who didn't seem to have the faintest memory of his early childhood in Echidnaopolis. This being the case, he imagined all echidnas as looking more or less like himself, hence why (if I remember correctly) all the echidnas in that story had red fur, like him, and none of the females had hairstyles anything like what we see in the comics nowadays (or hairstyles at all).
Assuming this theory holds, is it that much of a stretch to think that he might have imagined Dimitri to have a Guardian's mark simply because Knuckles himself had one? Add to this the fact that the only other time Dimitri was shown with his chest exposed (KTE#7) there was no evidence of a Guardian's mark, and the idea of him (or any of his descendents) having one becomes increasingly untenable.
Remington and Julie-Su not noticing the Guardian's mark could be explained in a number of ways. I read somewhere that Remington was sent to Echidnaopolis by Kragok because Kragok, showing a bit of decency for once, wanted to keep his son away from Lien-Da. To that end it could be that Kragok would have wanted Remington to stay out of obvious sight, and so he might have found some high-tech way of removing or disguising the birthmark that no one could detect. He and Lien-Da could have done the same to Julie, to make sure that no one recognized it and made any connections, and to make it so that they had as little in common with her as possible physically as well as in personality.
Moritori getting passed off as Tobor has an explanantion as well: it could be that his injuries weren't bad enough that he had to have blood work done, and they just assumed that it was Tobor because they didn't know that both Moritori and Tobor had survived landing on Angel Island. Of course, if Moritori really did intend to impersonate a Guardian all along (which doesn't make sense to me; how did he even know if he'd live long enough to be of use to the Legion) then he might have had his genetics altered somehow to match Tobor's. Of course, I don't think genetics is the Legion's cup of tea; if it were, then maybe they could have cloned Dimitri a new body instead of just giving him a ball to float around in, assuming that they could safely transfer him to the new body.
Ian, unless I'm mistaken, is one of the editors, not the artists. If he missed a few things that didn't fit in with the idea that Dimitri and his descendants having the same mark as the Guardians, he can hardly be blamed. Personally, I'm wondering about Finitevus' mark-is it another of the coincidences that, as Aurelia le has said, pile up in the comics, or could it be that he's somehow related to the Brotherood, the Legion, or both?
Ian is the writer. Mike Pellerito is the book's editor.
... because you don't get enough of that in school, right?
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... it could be that Kragok would have wanted Remington to stay out of obvious sight, and so he might have found some high-tech way of removing or disguising the birthmark that no one could detect. He and Lien-Da could have done the same to Julie, to make sure that no one recognized it and made any connections, and to make it so that they had as little in common with her as possible physically as well as in personality.
But the only way to get rid of the mark permanently without getting rid of Remmie and Julie-Su's fur would have been to fiddle with their genetics. It's rather like dying your hair: If you like that color, you're going to have to keep dying it. But the hair will always grow back in your natural color, so if you can't or don't want to keep dying it, you'd actually have to alter the genetic code that produces your natural hair color, so that the genes produce the desired color instead. This presents its own problems though, as I'll get to later in this response.
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Moritori getting passed off as Tobor has an explanantion as well: it could be that his injuries weren't bad enough that he had to have blood work done
I think his injuries were pretty severe; he was shown in what was practically a full body cast shortly after his battle with Tobor, and "his" wife, Voni-Ca looked very grave, standing by his bed-side with hands folded in prayer.
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Of course, if Moritori really did intend to impersonate a Guardian all along (which doesn't make sense to me; how did he even know if he'd live long enough to be of use to the Legion)
Moritori did intend to impersonate a Guardian even before he staged the attack on Echidnaopolis; it's been established in the comic that he watched Tobor in advance so as to memorize his habits and better impersonate him, so that MR might undermine the Brotherhood from within. What Moritori didn't intend was, in the process of kidnapping Tobor, to land both of them in the middle of a collapsing building. So he probably wouldn't have foreseen that he'd be that severely injured in the process of taking Tobor out and taking his place in the Brotherhood.
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then he might have had his genetics altered somehow to match Tobor's. Of course, I don't think genetics is the Legion's cup of tea; if it were, then maybe they could have cloned Dimitri a new body instead of just giving him a ball to float around in, assuming that they could safely transfer him to the new body.
The Legion could be genetics wizards for all we know; we have to keep in mind that they're currently operating out of much more rustic headquarters than they're accustomed to, due to the destruction of Echidnaopolis. It's kind of like during the American Civil War, when battle-field surgeons' solution to just about every injury/ailment was amputation, because there wasn't a whole lot else they could do, under the circumstances. Dimitri could well have received better care and had more options if the Legion were operating at peak efficiency, which they obviously aren't at present. My point being, what we see now is hardly the norm for them.
As to the possibility of Tobor altering his own genes (and the alteration of Remington and Julie-Su's genes), this seems highly unlikely to me. It is exceedingly difficult and often dangerous to alter the genetic structure of a mature organism, especially one as complex as a humanoid echidna. That's why most of the genetic manipulation you hear about is done to embryos at a very early stage: It's most effective to alter the most basic cell(s) (a.k.a. stem cells) that will later multiply to provide all the cells that compose your body.
Of course, efforts have also been made to alter the genetic structure of mature individuals, usually in an effort to cure them of genetic disorders like cystic fibrosis. This is referred to as gene therapy, and has proven largely unsuccessful thusfar. The basic problem is this: Instead of having one cell's genes to alter, you now have to alter the code contained within millions of cells. There's no way to directly alter the genetic code, like there is with stem cells, because this time you'd have to extract each and every cell from the subject's body, make the same changes to it every time, and then put it back. Besides being prohibitively time-consuming, this would also most likely kill them, depending on how you went about it. So gene therapy has to rely on a more indirect method to alter genes.
As it turns out, there already exists in nature an organism custom-designed to seek out cells and alter their genetic code; these are known as viruses. In case you're unfamiliar with what viruses do, I'll try to explain: Once viruses are introduced into your body, they seek out cells, enter them, and insert a genetic code encapsulated within the virus into the cell's pre-existing genetic code. This has the basic effect of turning the cell in question into a virus factory, whose only purpose now is to churn out more viruses, which will in turn convert other cells into virus factories, etc.
So what stops the viruses from turning every cell in your body to their own nefarious ends? Well, your immune system eventually learns to recognize the viruses and those cells they've corrupted, which are now fit for nothing more than destruction, as far as your immune system is concerned. (In the vast majority of cases, your immune system would be right: Mutated cells, left to their own devices, usually turn into something much worse, like cancer. That's why a vaccination for human papilloma virus can equal a vaccination against cervical cancer, BTW.) Assuming your immune system successfully fights off the virus, this is going to mean cell-death on a pretty large scale. That's where you get some of the highly unpleasant symptoms of viral infections, such as fever, vomiting, aches and pains, and even death.
Given all this, it's not surprising that most people consider viruses to be a bad thing. But gene therapy seeks to harness the unique properties of viruses to good ends. Basically, geneticists remove the genetic code encapsulated within the virus and replace it with code they'd like to insert into the patient's genome. (Many genetic disorders stem from genomes that are missing certain key lines of code; if these could be introduced into every cell that lacked them, the disorder would effectively be cured.) They then introduce the mutated virus into the patient's body, and let it do its thing.
Two major problems arise at this point though. The first is (you guessed it) the patient's immune system. Nobody told it that this isn't your garden-variety, borderline-fatal virus, but instead a curing agent. (I guess it missed the memo.) So what's to stop the immune system killing off the mutated virus and every cell it alters? Well actually, nothing, which is why it's not uncommon for patients undergoing gene therapy to die or experience adverse side-effects without being cured.
The second problem has to do with the range of alteration: Once an organism has matured, its cells become specialized; certain cells have certain jobs, and you only really want or need to alter those cells that aren't doing their jobs correctly, due to a genetic defect. How to convey this to the virus though, is another question.
"But," you might argue, "Locke successfully altered his genes, by this or some other method. Isn't it possible that Moritori Rex, Remington, and Julie-Su could have had their genes altered the same way?"
To which I would offer two points of contention:
a) It's been stated in the comic before that the technology the Brotherhood possesses is superior to that of the Dark Legion. Whether this extends to genetic alteration techniques, I don't know, but we can't assume the Legion had the same means available to them as Locke did, and
b) You might remember that Locke died of pancreatic cancer in M:25YL, and if you read my lengthly dissertation above, you can probably guess why. Ian himself has stated that he believes Locke's early (albiet non-canonical) demise to be a result of his altering his own genes.* Kragok and Lien-Da might have been willing to take that chance with Julie-Su, but would Kragok have taken such a risk with his only son, or Moritori Rex with his own body? I think not.
Assuming even this fails to persuade you, I have but two words for you (and then some more words to explain them, of course ): Ockham's razor. This is a scientific and philosophical principle that basically says that, given two or more competing theories, the simplest theory is preferable. And given the multitude of complications that we've demonstrated must arise from the idea of Dimitri and his descendents having the Guardian's mark, it would appear that their not having the mark is a much simpler and (according to Ockham's razor) preferable explanation.
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Ian, unless I'm mistaken, is one of the editors, not the artists. If he missed a few things that didn't fit in with the idea that Dimitri and his descendants having the same mark as the Guardians, he can hardly be blamed.
Actually, Ian's the writer. And I do hold him to a higher standard than just any old writer, because he was a fan of STH and KTE before he ever started writing for them. So I rather expect him to be just as (if not more) obsessed with issues of continuity as I am, and to have a firm grounding in the established continuity of the comic, which (in large part) he does.
The points I've raised just seemed like pretty large oversights to me, so I thought I should point them out. I also intend to post this over at Ian's board, once my new membership goes through, so that hopefully I can get an answer from Ian himself.
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* This also helps explain though, I think, why Locke didn't let Knuckles choose genetic alteration for himself: By the time Knuckles was old enough to choose for himself, the only means of genetic enhancement available to him would have had some pretty nasty consequences. Unless Locke was willing to let Knuckles suffer those consequences, he'd have to alter his own genes instead, so that he could pass only the benefits on to Knuckles, without the quite possibly fatal side-effects.
Wow. the theorists and evolutionists have finally shown their faces :O! I haven't seen this much hub-bub since Chaos Knux :O.
I have two slight points I'll come back to later, but they deal with Moritori and Locke's "capabilities".
But to address something in this post. With Ockham's razor-yes, the simplest answer is the most preferable, you have to make sure you HAVE the simplest one.
And I don't believe the simplest one has been stated. o.O I'm just saying, there's a always another reason that seems to spring up from this series, so we shouldn't hold our breath.
I say that because of someone stating Athair didn't have a Mark. I took a moment to think, and came up with this...
Athair the Guardian w/o a mark. Heheheh Makes me wonder. What if you don't wear the mark if you aren't a guardian, but if you are a Guardian, it shows up due to some mystic connection xD.
No I'm serious, like it only shows up on the part of the bloodline that actually WILL become Guardians, like some trait in the blood goes "You will be special" and it happens.
. And in Aaron's case, it was a marker for death. 😮
Hey this is a comic that had a boiling pool of gold aiding a monarchy -.-..., you never really know.
It would be a less scientific, more magical and WAYYY less complex way of explaining how come Julie-Su and Remmy don't have the mark. They aren't ACTUAL GUARDIANS, therefore they aren't blessed/using a dominant/recessive trait that makes the Guardian Mark appear.
There's probably something within the comic that contradicts this - but maybe the guardian ring is something that isn't inhereted?
Like maybe it's a tattoo or something, that is passed down from father to son soon after birth? So it's more of a traditional ritual than a genetic trait.
This would explain why Moritori Rex could easily fool Tobor's family, by just giving himself the mark (If Menniker had not given him the mark already). And why Julie-Su and Remington and even Lien-Da DON'T have the mark.
Lien-Da may not have the mark because, as someone might have mentioned earlier, perhaps the mark isn't passed down to female descendants. Guardianship seems to be passed down to the eldest son, and daughter's usually come in second (rather like the Acorn family line of succession) and so in the Dark Legion, it could be the same. Therefore, the mark would be given to Kragok rather than Lien-Da - and not Julie-Su either.
It would also explain why in KTE, Kragok is grandmaster of the DL, rather than Lien-Da, despite them both being heirs to Dimitri and the same age. Like royal families - it favours males. (Could I just mention here that I'm NOT being sexist - it's just the way it is. I AM a girl.)
This maybe explains why Lien-Da is so keen to become incharge of the DL - she probably resents not being in equal rank to Kragok in the first place. (I don't remember her ever being upset that her twin brother had been killed.)
Also, she was quick to jump down Dimitri's throat in M:25YL when Dimitri stood up for Rutan, on the ground that Rutan is a 'teenage boy, these things happen' to which Lien-Da replied 'That's funny! I don't remember the same being said for teenage girls!'
Dimtiri: Boys are different!
Lien-Da: That's very enlightened of you! I suppose next you're gong to say that girls belong in the home!
Dimitri: That's not what I meant!
Lien-Da: Oh yeah? Then how come you didn't turn over control of the Dark legion to me?
She may have in issue with male supremacy, that stems from Kragok inheritng the DL (and the white mark) over her.
And in Remington's case, if Kragok doesn't want Rem to be recognised as being related to the DL (or the brotherhood) he could have simply not given Rem the mark - and sent him to Echidnapolis without it.
Well? Have I got a point?
That tattoo idea is very interesting; virtually every source I've seen indicates that the mark is genetics. I suppose Finitevus, as an obvious opponent of the Guardians, could have given himself a mark similar to but different from theirs as a mockery of their heritage.
Haha, I completely forgot about Lara-Su and Rutan.
Lara-Su has the mark, despite Knuckles having already decided before her birth that she wasn't going to become the next guardian - so it's unlikely he would've given her the mark... unless he did out of pure tradition rather than intended her to become a guardian. Though Knuckles was never
a big fan of tradition. Or maybe he was pressured into giving her the mark from the rest of the brotherhood (Locke would've been dead already)
Whearas with Rutan, he doesn't have the mark, despite being the first-born heir to the DL. Though they're not overly likely, I can think of two reasons why he wouldn't have received the mark.
a) Lien-Da resents the mark, and what it stands for, and so she refused to pass it down to Rutan
or b) There isn't really a DL anymore, and so she didn't see it nessisary to give him the mark
Or perhaps a mixture of both.
It's unlikely the writers thought about it in that much detail, but it could be an explanaition they could se if ever confronted with it.
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I have two slight points I'll come back to later, but they deal with Moritori and Locke's "capabilities".
I assume you either forgot to address this, or by "later" you meant another post. Either way, I'm rather curious to hear what you might have to say on the subject. 
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With Ockham's razor-yes, the simplest answer is the most preferable, you have to make sure you HAVE the simplest one.
....
It would be a less scientific, more magical and WAYYY less complex way of explaining how come Julie-Su and Remmy don't have the mark.
I hate to contradict you, Darkest Light (ah, who am I kidding, I love it!
) but I think my explanation is still the simplest. Recessive traits are bred out of families all the time in real life, which is why I think it quite possible that Dimitri could simply have missed out on the mark, as did all his descendents. (I take it that's the old evolutionist argument you refer to in the first few lines of your post? )
A lot of the scientific complexity of my last post stems from the fact that I was trying to disprove the theory that the mark could be removed/added at will. None of that makes my theory more complex, it simply points out the staggering complexity inherent in the assumption that Dimitri and his descendents could have the Guardian's mark.
Hmm, I think that if the writers had to chose between a magical explanation or a scientific explanaition for something, they would go with the magical explanation.
You have a point Aurelia le, but I think magic is more likely than all this scientific stuff and genetics.
While magic may not nessisarily be the simplest option, it is certainly far easier for Archie to say "it's magical" to the younger audience that the comic is written for than explaining "Dominant and recessive genes, etc."
You've definitely got a point there, tamkins. While Sonic is equal parts fantasy and sciencie fiction, fantasy usually ends up dominating the field. Finitevus is actually rather fascinating because, if his abilities do mix magic and science, he's a combination of the two.
Yes, well, the DL seem to be far more interested in technology than magic (and technology counts as science, right?)
But from what I've seen of Fin so far, he also seems quite magic-oriented. And he has chaos control.
Whearas the brotherhood are definately more into spirual magicness and such.
But Fin has an altered version of their mark...
Wow, idea just occured to me. Fin's a smart guy right? Into science? Like the brother's Edmund and Dimitri, right?
Well, who's to say that Edmund and Dimitri were like, the only children? So the family tree only shows two brothers, but Fin probably hadn't been thought of when that was draw up, right?
It would make sense - Fin has traits of both bloodlines - magic and technology, plus the scientific smarts of their scientist heritage.
Say, remember that other echidna that was with young!Hawking in KTE #5, that had the guardian ring, to which Hawking said "That's not important!" when Knuckles asked about him?
Was he ever explained? Could he have something to do with Fin?
Bah, I'm contradicting myself here. That echidna was definately thought of before the family tree was written up.
Anyway, things to ponder on...
That other echidna was another member of the Brotherhood. Tobor, IIRC.
Rutan does not have a mark because...
a) Rutan was adopted and thus does not bear the mark.
b) The mark is a recessive trait.
c) Mark is not always visible (like LaraSu and her retractable knuckles)
d) Dye was used to cover up the mark.
e) Coloring error (like red GalaNa)
f) M25YL isn't canon, therefore it doesn't matter.
g) Retcon Potto Activate!
That Finitevus as a descendant of some sibling of Dimitri and Edmund's sounds interesting; yet another intriguing theory regarding an intriguing character.
Hold the phone: when did someone decide that Rutan was adopted? Or is that just one of your possible explanations for it, Miss Puar? Anyway, M25YL is canon; it's just a possible future, not a definite future-like the future where Robotnik briefly ended up after being zapped by E.V.E., or the one NICOLE came from.
I doubt that the mark is a recessive trait: as far as we've seen, it's been present in every generation of Guardian from Edmund on down, and going by genetics it's safe to assume that it would have to be dominant in order to continue to appear-or else the Guardians just happened to marry women who had the same recessive gene. The coloring error deal could be true as well, and I suppose it could be possible that the mark could be hidden by natural means (though I have no idea what those could be). Dye sounds logical, but it would have to be a permanent dye or else one applied regularly to hide the mark on members of the line-Lien-Da, Julie-Su, Remington, etc.-who haven't been shown to have it.
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I doubt that the mark is a recessive trait: as far as we've seen, it's been present in every generation of Guardian from Edmund on down, and going by genetics it's safe to assume that it would have to be dominant in order to continue to appear-or else the Guardians just happened to marry women who had the same recessive gene.
That's why my full theory regarding the Guardian's mark is two-part: One, that it's recessive (and therefore could be bred out of Dimitri's branch of the family tree), and two, that the recessive gene is activated even in the presence of more dominant genes by chaos energy (and therefore could manifest itself in seventeen successive generations of the Guardian family, which is, as you noted, highly unlikely in real-world genetics).
I would have added the chaos element to my explanation above, but my purpose was only to prove that Dimitri and his descendents couldn't have the Guardian's mark and that it couldn't be removed/added at will. My purpose was not to explain how the mark has managed to appear in every generation of Knuckles' family, otherwise I would have addressed this previously.
I only sought to avoid needlessly complicating the issue (and still failed pretty spectacularly, by the looks of it), but now that you bring it up, well ... there you are.
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a) Rutan was adopted and thus does not bear the mark.
maybe i wasn't paying attention, but when did they say he was adopted. (why would it matter to the story anyway?)
Yes, I meant later as in another post.
Alright. Let's start with Moritori. My idea of Mori was not so much his abilities, but of his weird and very exploitable storyline...
Being a member of the DL, they use their smarts to technologically enhance themselves and their world. I think that Moritori-despite his motives to infiltrate the Brotherhood from within-WISHED to have the skills needed and utilized by the Guardians. He watched them. I mean, he figured out how to WATCH them! That's crazy!
Cue him and his insidious plan. That then leads to ...what... 200 years later, with Moritori STILL in the Brotherhood, STILL working for the good of the planet-yet STILL being a filter agent.
He's gained the mystic abilities of the Brotherhood.
He knows all the tech of Haven and of Echidna culture...(And it boggles me as to how come Mori didn't get a strike on Haven done sooner?!?! What the heck was he waiting on? Yer, maybe Luger delayed his plans, but I mean, Kragok was all about it! And Mori was all "Well, you got here finally. but uhh I really can't do crap"
Anyway...Who's to say he didn't have another son...I mean, he was able to keep it a secret that he was communicating with the DL for who knows how long. I'm sure he could hide the fact that he had another son...and teach him all he knew.
Side note: Maybe Mori took care of Remi :o.
Cue Eggman causing great havoc on AI, and you get Fini popping up all of a sudden. It would be perfect.
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Locke: Scientist or Specialist.
Now see Locke is weird. Locke willingly enhanced himself in order to fufill a prophecy he dreamt about. He wished to create a Echidna imbued with pure Chaos energy, in order for Knuckles to have and control the energies necessary to withstand and contain this apocalyptic event.
But, to what extent did it affect Locke? Is he a bit stronger/more mystic/faster/bionic-kidna without the DL metal implants than the other members of the Brotherhood? I mean, we've seen how capable he is, but at the same token, look at Spectre. He's all "DARKNESSRAY!" and pwns some DL goonies a few times. I wanna know what this guy can do.
Also, you gotta feel bad for Locke. He made his son superspecial for some insurmountable evil, and then one day, AI goes to crap :o. Locke gotta be "o.O..If THIS was the event I dreamt about, I'm gonna be PISSED!"
I had more, but its gone now.
Spectre is definitely impressive, and I'm sure a lot of Brotherhood fans want to know what he's capable of. Just like Finitevus, I think he's undergone some kind of transformation in his past, and it's made him stronger than he should be for his place in the Guardian line-assuming that I've heard right and that each subsequent generation of Guardians has more Chaos power than the last.
Moritori could be Finitevus, I suppose; it would be an interesting way of getting him back in the story. However, I doubt that someone as loyal as Moritori would have ignored Dimitri leaving like Finitevus had, or that he would have kept the secret of renewed youth (honestly, Finitevus looks way younger than MR) from Dimitri when it could have helped the Legion.
As for Locke, we can assume that his experiments might have affected his abilities somewhat, though of course not nearly to the extent that Knuckles was affected. In regards to the insurmountable evil, it could be what's happening on Angel Island-that thing in Locke's dream looked an awful lot like Robotnik.
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maybe i wasn't paying attention, but when did they say he was adopted. (why would it matter to the story anyway?)
The comics never did say Rutan was adopted. Maybe I shouldn't have listed it first, it was only a possible explanation for why no mark was shown. Unproven conjuncture, not fact. I thought that choice g) would make it clear that some ideas were less serious than others. ^^;
As to whether M25YL is canon Spectre that depends on your POV. If you think all published stories irreversibly become part of the canon, then it's hypocritical to discount it. But if you are only concerned with past and present events, and not alt. timelines or whatever, Rutan and everything else in M25YL can be disregarded altogether. Neither view is wrong, I just find it less of a headache to worry about the here-and-now than to make current stories conform to a possible future.
(ex: If every series felt they HAD to conform to glimpses of the future, Goku would always die of heart disease and no attempts to cure him would work, Donatello would never be able to save his brothers from Shredder, and Doc Brown would keep getting shot by those durn terrorists over stolen plutonium. Those writers didn't take the future-is-set-in-stone approach, some do. I'm just too lazy to find examples for them!)
o.O I was alluding to Mori being Fini's father.
I suppose Moritori could be Finitevus' dad, but the idea doesn't sit well with me. I support the idea that Finitevus is a transformed Luger, because it brings back a character who really had no major role in the story and makes him one of the top villains. However, the idea of Finitevus being another Grand Master, but not one who's already showed up, is rather dull-almost every Echidna villain is a Grand Master, so making him a brand new one would be the most uninspired plot idea of all time. A transformed one we've seen before sounds good-a completely new one, not good.
Love all the time paradox references, Miss Puar, and I agree that you could take either point of view. I'll take the one where it counts as part of the continuity, if not the same as the one the comics are going to end up following. Truth be told, there are some elements of M25YL I hope do come to pass: namely, Sonic and Sally get hitched and have kids. I know I'm not supposed to talk about romance, but some things you just have to say.
By the way, anyone here heard the rumor that Rutan is Finitevus' son?
I heard that! On Wiki and.. that's it. They say there's a chance Fin is Rutan's father, because of the white tips on Rutan's dreads.
If that's the case, I totally un-support Fin-is-Luger theory. Because Lien-Da having a kid with her dad just crosses the line. And I thought that Knuckles and Julie-Su are distant cousins was bad enough. XP
Knuckles and Julie-Su are so distantly related that they don't qualify as cousins unless you want to get technical; genetically, they might as well have come from different time periods, which, if you think about it, is somewhat true. Julie could have been born before Athair, given the whole Twilight Zone-Echidnaopolis time conversion.
Yeah, I'm still supporting Luger as Finitevus. If that theory proves incorrect-which, due to the revelation in #182 that his origins have something to do with Albion, is looking more and more unlikely-then I'm quite willing to support the idea of him and Lien-Da as a couple. Note: I don't think this qualifies as romantic talk, as the two of them would likely be together only out of a mutual desire for power. Until Luger is proven not to be Finitevus, or Rutan is proven to be Finitevus' son, then I'm going to stick with my theory. If it turns out Finitevus isn't Luger, then I guess Rutan could be his son-though white dreadlock tips is a pretty lame inherited trait from someone as cool as the Doc.
Hey, on the topic of Rutan and Finetivus and inhereting and a number of other words I can't think of nor care to list,
Dimitri did say in M:25YL, he had 'never been more ashamed of his lineage' since working with Fin.
Does this make Fin Dimtri's 'lineage'?
This could either mean Fin is Luger (duh, great grandson, providing my brain is working properly and I have the correct number of generations between them) or that Fin is his 'lineage' through marriage to Lien-Da or whatever it is legionaires do to hook up.... thus 'lineage' indirectly.
You guys totally know I'm just spewing out whatever possible connection comes to mind. ;D
He was referring to either being ashamed of himself or Lien-Da for working with Finitevus.
About M25LY, I have always consider it a possible future, or a what if situation. I agree with Spectre on the things I want to see happen in the future. There are things I would liked to change, like Lara-Su's life being different, and things that I could take or leave (like Nicole's death), and I don't really see Lien-Da and Juile-Su ever getting along. While I think there should probably be some losses, overall I would like the future to be brighter than what was shown and to have a basically happy ending.
