Why are you insisting that Nicole has to die?, for me that future changed completely.
It makes me happy to see Dimitri up in arms about what and how the Dark Legion has handled things since his imprisonment. I mean, he knew not of the extent of their battles to try and defeat the Guardians, and he certainly showed incredible intelligence when the Legion as a whole became just this...war-mongering focus.
It spun all away from him, and now-after the one-year later event, Dimitri has little to no power. He can't help his fellow echidnas, even though it seems he direly wants to now-even if for the sake of regaining power/body..
He's willing to work with SONIC of all people, I didn't even know he KNEW about Sonic, let alone jump to his crib to find C-Knux (then again those imbued with chaos energy have the ability to trace signature trails....Knux would be what Tobor called him, a beacon of energy.)
But his apparent distate for Finetivus has GOT to mean that either Finetivius was someone he didn't like...a third agenda that didn't quite fit in to the whole DL/Guardian fight....Or maybe one of the descendants of the original Tribal Jury that ruled his action down way back when. That would be cool...
But, that's why I think It might be Mori's OTHER (made this up)son.
It COULD be Luger too, since I REALLY did forget about him-he was a pansy..so what!! XD. Ahh well, when's this come out. Christmas? Gives me time to get backstories..All right!
Supposing Finetivus is Luger, that'd probably hit Julie-Su pretty hard. It'd be interesting to see how she would handle the situation.
I am not insisting that Nicole die, Alex. If you look at my post, I said I could take or leave that part, which means it doesn't matter to me if that happens or not.
I see, now I understand what you meant DC =)
Dimitri's dislike of Finitevus could come from a number of sources. I wouldn't be too happy with a guy who slowly took me apart, even if it was to keep me alive. It could also be that Dimitri, who was never really as much a villain as an idealist who let his heart get away from him, is utterly repulsed by the true evil that Finitevus would seem to be possessed of. He could hate Finitevus for being one of his descendants, particularly if my Luger theory or the various Moritori ones are correct, but only time will tell.
I think that it's not too likely that NICOLE will be destroyed along the current timeline, although that's still a possiblity. I would like to see some developments from M25Yl take place, but I won't mention them since they mainly have to do with romance, which is forbidden in the forum (at least, it is on most occasions).
I'm pretty sure that whatever reason Dimi hates Fini (heehee) so much will be revealed in this arc.
You know. I've been thinking about that Spectre. Maybe FIni didn't take Dimitri apart unwillingly. It may have been too hard to keep Dimitri's head alive-with all the crap its been through-and reanimate it to a body-mechanical or bioengineered.
I mean, Dimi was last seen on a dang bed, strapped down while Knuckles took a Chaos poop RIGHT NEXT TO HIM! I mean, that amount of glowing radiation had to do something to Dimitri. Maybe it irreversibly messed his nerves up with reconnecting to bionic parts any lower than his neck?
Or maybe Dimi wanted a cool gyro-ball to float and roll in without going all topsy turvy 😛
I was under the impression that Dr. Finitevius was an entirely different character and was just well, Dr. Finitevius. I suppose he could be another character is guise its just his personaility seems to be so much different than most of the other characters. Still though I see everyones point and some of them are definately valid, I'd find it interesting as well if Fini was Luger but I have my doubts that would happen, but it would be nice for the sake of tying up loose ends for Archie to at least let us see or know what exactly happened to Luger, it was never confirmed whether he really was dead or not just that he "disapppeared mysteriously" and whatnot. In any case though I have a feeling that Dr. Finitevius isn't going to turn out to be anyone else but just himself if that makes any sense.
And going off topic for a moment after seeing the whole character design thing a few pages back, not counting creatures like cats or dogs or anything, but have you ever seen hedgehogs and echidnas? For the most part they all look identical. I always thought that Archie did a pretty good job of seperating and giving a distinct look to each of the characters keeping in mind that in real life your not going to be seeing a blue hedgehog next to a green one and a black one ect...still this is obviously not real life and is such, a comic book. However keeping in mind that I believe Archie has done a rather good job at making them look distinct I have to contradict myself for one moment...
Sonic&Sally's kids as well as Tails&Mina's kids in the M:25YL issues ticked me off more than anything I've ever seen. Because rather than taking the time to think of what a hybrid would look like((going back to by what things look like in real life point mentioned, can you even IMAGINE a fox crossed with a mongoose or a chipmunk with a hedgehog?)) they decided to make a near-Sonic-clone for a son and a near-Sally-clone for a daughter for Sonic and Sal, now as for Tails and Mina's kids it would have been nice to see hybrid however considering it was only one((correct me if I'm wrong)) panel that showed them with their kids. But still the Sonic-Sal kids were shown throughout the M:25YL issues and I couldn't believe they didn't do a better job of making them look like hybrids or even trying to. And although I realize that two human beings may have a child and it look almost identical to its mother or father, typically in children we see a little bit of both even if its just one or two features, no?
However on a higher note, Lara-Su's design was a fantastic example if you ask me, she actually looked like a cross between Knuckles and Julie-Su.
And thats my two cents on it all 
It was'nt just 25 Echidnas Later that showed the children as clones, blame the In Your Face special too. And besides, it's a big cartoon rule that if parents are different species, the girls look like mommy and the boys look like daddy, except in very special cases.
At least, this is what I've seen in Disney movies, so..
I definitely like the idea of Finitevus being Luger. I've always wanted to know what happened to Luger and never believed he was dead. I don't think I'd like it if Finitevus is just some random new character. I'd prefer it if he was an already existing character or at least directly linked to one. We know (or at least can assume) that his origins lay in Albion. Perhaps they got ahold of Luger (or whoever) and tried to do something to him and it backfired like all things in Albion do
Unless I'm mistaken, I'm the guy who first proposed that Finitevus might be Luger. Not trying to sound braggy, but I do agree that it would be a nice way to tie up lose ends, though it might be a little rip off of Darth Vader-not that Archie hasn't already accomplished that. I'd like to think that Luger somehow made his way to Albion, because if he didn't then the idea that he's Finitevus is totally blown.
I agree that the whole clone kid thing is rather lame; I don't mind seeing a little resemblace between the kids and their parents, but just making the kid look like a younger, differently dressed duplicate of their mom or dad makes you wonder if it's not some past self meets future self story. As for Tails and Mina's kids, I wouldn't mind them being clones if we at least knew what their names were or if they had an actual role in the storyline. I mean, the only times they were brought up was when Sally was talking about Sonic and Tails not speaking much anymore and when Tails mentioned in the alternate M25YL that he'd protected his family from the effects of the timeline changing.
Personally, I'd like to know where Tails and Mina as a couple came from; I haven't read all the comics yet, but last I checked those two weren't even very close friends. Given that Mina is also about twice Tails' age or so in the present, it seems unlikely that they would ever have forged a romantic connection. I actually like the coupling idea, I just think that Archie should have explained why.
All respect intended, but I really do think this Finitevus=Luger theory is getting a bit too much air time. Happy to eat my words if it ends up being true, but there's absolutely no evidence to suggest there's any link between the two. We may as well be saying Finitevus is Yanar or Mari-An or Steppenwolf.
Tails and Mina was an editorial mistake, or something - I can't remember the full story, someone else will have to fill you in. I know it was originally meant to be Fiona. The point's moot anyway as I don't think anyone writer - Ian or otherwise - is going to seriously consider a Tails/Mina pairing, and M25YL is effectively defunt and dead now anyway.
>>Maamaniac, Didn't you get the memo. Fini is Tobor.
::Runs before stones fly::
I know you aren't serious, Darkest Light, but just to clarify for everyone: Tobor is dead.
Anyway, I admit that the Luger=Finitevus theory has gotten a little too much airtime. I agree that Finitevus could just as easily be Moritori, or Yanar, or yet another unknown relative of the Guardians, or even just some new character unconnected to those who have come before. Whichever it is, I'll like him no matter what.
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Tobor is dead.
So is Luger.
No, Luger was never confirmed, its just stated that he mysteriously disappeared. However we all pretty much saw Tobor die as well as he nemesis at that time Kragok. Sadly after what happened I highly doubt either one will be returning.
In the context of the situation, it'd be a pretty radical interpretation of the text to read Luger's disappearance as anything *but* getting offed by his kids.
still, in comics, not saying "dead" means a lot, but I get that Ian most likely considers him dead. i guess i'd at least want to know the details if he really is dead. it'd be an interesting story regardless for julie-su and lien-da
I'd say that someone who isn't confirmed dead is pretty much still alive.
And even some people who ARE confirmed dead are still alive. I'm pretty sure at some point, Lien-Da stated that Dimitri was 'no longer with us' yet Dimitri is still around (geddit? a ROUND? *shot*).
*cough* Anyway, what I'm getting at is that whether someone is said to be dead or not often means nothing. I mean, we all beleived Remington to be dead, but there's a good chance he'll come back as the Frost Legion's Grandmaster.
And moving back to Sonic's side of the plot, wasn't Sonic's parents originally supposed to be dead? Sally has 'died' before, and Tommy Turtle has come back once before dying for good, IIRC.
I think there's a saying that goes, "if you don't see a body, never presume someone is dead" or something to that effect.
Come to think of it, I don't beleive we ever saw Kragok's body... I'm not suggesting that he is still alive, but you just never know....
Kragok's dead alright.
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What other viable option was there?
- Dimitri is over-played without a revamp/return to the classics
- Lien-Da isn't much of a super-villain-type
- Kragok is dead
- Moritori Rex, aside from missing, wasn't nearly as interesting-looking as Finitevus.
- Finitevus had more intrigue built around him
Yes, this is a quote from Ian when someone asked him on his forum as to why he decided to use Finitevus as a villain. And remember, Ian's stated serveral times on his forum that he has a "dead=dead policy". So I don't think Kragok's coming back. I also believe he's one of the many people who think Luger's dead, but he said it wouldn't be canon until you saw it in the comic.
Ok, main thing. How did Luger "die"? He was caught in some explosion-building falling thing.
Uhh wait, Didn't Tobor and Mori have some building-fall-on them-death ...type scenario?
< X-Files theme> Luger folks, may not be dead... </X-Files theme>
DL- What your referring to with Tobor and Moritori Rex happened way back when, Tobor died and took Kragok down with him the moment your thinking of is when Moritori Rex and Tobors bodies were trapped underneath building parts during their battel however Moritori Rex was nursed back to health by the Brotherhood((who though it was Tobor o_O)) and Moritori Rex lived there in Haven with them before anti-climactically being forced out by Knuckles who revealed him.
As far as I'm concerned, until we get proof that Luger was in fact taken out, then he's still alive and a likely candidate for Doc Fin. While Lien-Da and Kragok could have offed him, it seems such an ignoble death for a Dark Legion Grand Master-every one that's died before took a Guardian with him. True, Luger doesn't sound like your typical, fight to the death Grand Master, but it still doesn't sound cool.
Luger would be a good choice as Finitevus because it would fill in a plot gap that's never really been answered by anything more than a "I'm assuming he's dead" or some such from Ian. While it might be a Darth Vader ripoff, we know that neither Julie nor Kommisar is going to go Luke Skywalker on us and break down in the middle of a fight, nor is Remington liable to, if Finitevus is Luger. He may be, he may not be; we'll just have to wait and see.
I know Guardian. My point is, whenever buildings/mountians/ominous structures fall on Echidnas, they somehow survive.
Dimitri/Enerjak-Mt Doom
Tobor and Mori-Ruined Floating Isle
Knux-Chaos Syphon escapade part II. (Ok he died, but he came back.)
..Uhh anyone else wanna toss examples in to the melting pot? All I'm saying, Luger could be alive.
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Ok, main thing. How did Luger "die"? He was caught in some explosion-building falling thing.
No, that was Mari-Su. Luger just disappeared. There were never details given to explain what happened to him.
Exactly my point, True Red. Something I've learned in my years as a fan of sci-fi and fantasy: if a character's death hasn't been shown and confirmed, there's a good chance that they may still be alive. Luger may have been a bit of reserved Grand Master-Kragok and Kommisar planned to take him out because they were tired of waiting for him to take action, or so I've heard-but he may have been smart enough to know they would have come after him and run. After disappearing, maybe he found his way back to Mobius Prime and Albion, where he somehow became...Dr. Finitevus!
Yeah, I know, I preach this theory too much, but I strongly hope that it's true.
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After disappearing, maybe he found his way back to Mobius Prime and Albion, where he somehow became...Dr. Finitevus!
During which time he shaved, bleached his fur, cut off half his dreads, got some freaky contacts, and went from fairly passive, distant-but-well-meaning workaholic leader to vicious, manipulative, self-serving, psychotic chaos scientist who completely forgot that he did have children he cared for.
I totally see the connection.
Well, when you say it like that....
But let's just say Fin IS Luger, you have no idea what kind of mental menipulation or trauma Luger might have gone through to chage so dramatically - speaking of which, I beleive there was one story which featured Luger at all, and so we don't really know THAT much abot his personality. And on the fur bleach - Knuckles managed to end up green without fur dye, didn't he?
Er, I dunno. Both sides have points. I dunno, I'm just gonna wait until the backstory is published.
True, we don't know what could have potentially caused Luger to change so dramatically - but by that logic, then ANYONE could have been subject to some huge, drastic unknown body-and-mind-warping-experience, with Fini being the end result. If it's so easy to believe that Luger could change in such a way (from what little we do know about him, he's still pretty dissimilar from Fini), then you may as well say that Sojouner or Wynmacher or Gala-Na could've been made subject to a bunch of unknown trauma and manipulation and end up completely changed.
Well something must've happened to Gala-Na to make her go from a nice echidna to a you-know-what. I mean they completely screwed with her character.
It's true that virtually any Echidna could have gone through the same thing to become Finitevus if he did become what he is through some past trauma or transformation; I'm of the opinion that something similar happened to Spectre. Luger just strikes me as a good choice because it would explain the whole story behind his disappearance, give us a reincarnated version of a rather minor old character, and still give us a pretty cool villain.
As for how Luger could have ended up looking like Finitevus, look at the universe we're talking about: Sonic characters have undergone strange and unusual transformations almost since day one, and the Dark Legionnaires are known for being among the most extreme examples of such. If Knuckles can go from a red-furred mutant to a seemingly omnipotent green-furred living Chaos Emerald, then changing an ordinary Echidna into Dr. Finitevus shouldn't be too hard to explain. After all, they're going to do it in #182, aren't they?
As for Gala-Na, I think that was more a case of character development. Early on she was a kindly, "Welcome to Paradise" type of person. The problem is, she takes her job as Albion's protector a little too seriously and goes to extremes that she really shouldn't, which ends up leaving her and everybody else mad. Why else wouldn't she have showed up since the whole Chaos Knuckles fiasco? Albion and the rest of Mobius have been on bad terms since then, what with their attempted disassembly of General D'Coolette, kidnapping Knuckles and trying to remove his Chaos Powers against his will, and demanding that the Brotherhood return the people of Echidnaopolis to Albion-Gala-Na needs to take a chill pill. Still, it could be worse; this cancelled plot list they have posted on Sonic HQ featured her becoming a Robotnik sub-boss.
I disagree on Gala-Na. We only met her for a couple of pages in KTE#12 and all she did in them was provide a bit of backstory. No one had any idea as to her personality from that. I don't find her personality as expounded upon in STH#91-94 all that surprising considering there aren't any leaders in the comics that haven't been the way Gala-Na was shown. Lupe is possibly the exception, but she doesn't really rule over people in the same manner Gala-Na, King Max, and Echidnaopolis High Councilors have. Sally and Elias have been the closest to the "nicest" in comparable power positions, but I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they're the youngest and haven't yet been truly in power all that long.
Now that you mention it, it does seem that the majority of the comic's leaders are very...hm..."obsessed" with their positions of power.
I suppose that's true...in all honesty, most of them aren't nearly as bad as the Dark Legion Grand Masters. At least their actions are intended towards the greater good.
By the way, I thought of something a while back: does anyone have a clue what information Dr. Finitevus took from Isaac? That information has to be important somehow, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered taking it. Could it be the secret he needed to recreate Enerjak? Or is it some other vital piece of knowledge related to another of his schemes?
since the backstory in #182 is titled "Albion's Shameful Secret" i'm pretty much assuming they tried some sort of experiment or tests of sorts and it wound up causing finitevus to be born. whether or not they may have tried this on Luger (perhaps thinking they could use a previous grand-master of the legion to get a leg up) or if it happened by accident to a member of the brotherhood or some other featured echidna, i'm pretty much set on this being an Albion mess up.
As for Gala-Na. I agree that she wasn't neccesarilly shown to be an all in all nice person from her first appearance. in fact, her first appearance backs up her true nature in ways. Obviously she will be as politically correct as she can be upon first meeting knuckles, probably wanting him to prefer Albion to Angel Island. This over-zealous pride shone through even more during her later appearances.
Don't think i overly care who finitevus is as long as its an existing character, and i'm fairly certain this will get tracked back to Gala-Na somehow
The Gala-Na tie to Finitevus theory is one that I'm sure many of the fans believe will turn out to be true, and I wouldn't be surprised. Every time the story has brought us to Albion, she's been involved, and this will no doubt prove to be no exception. Also, it's rather obvious that Finitevus' strange condition must be the result of some strange development, possibly due to experimentation, though why they would choose to experiment on Luger is beyond me if he did in fact end up there. If Finitevus isn't Luger, I'm thinking that he was probably an Albion scientist who pulled a Dimitri and thus disgraced the city with his actions. Of course, it could be that for once Albion did something bad enough to cause themselves shame; whatever the story, I'm just looking forward to seeing how Finitevus came to be.
Gala-Na is no saint, that's for sure. She shares Locke's flaw of having the firm belief that her home and it's safety are more important than anything else, and specifically that the Echidna people must be reunited in Albion. A pity she didn't try to be more diplomatic about it; instead of demanding that the Brotherhood bring the Echidnaopolis folks "home", she could have opened relations with Angel Island and tried to win the people over. "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar", as the old saying goes.
Whoever Finitevus is, I agree that he's cool, and no doubt his origin is one of the many snakes in Gala-Na's closet.
I must've been the only one who didn't read Gala-Na's first appearance that way.
I have the issue in question right in front of me, and all I see is her giving an explanation of what Albion is and its significance to the echidna race. Then she leads the Lost Tribe, who willingly left Echidnapolis, into the city and that's it. Not once did she mention anything about the other echidnas needing to come to Albion. It wasn't until her later appearance that she suddenly became anti-Echidnaopolis.
Am I just missing something?
yes her first appearance was a very glorious one and she appeared to be a wonderful person. My first impression of her was the same as yours. I was merely saying that her further appearances showed her true self and upon looking back, i can see how we may have not been shown her true self at first because as you said, she merely offered a backstory to Albion's existence and a welcoming attitude to the lost tribe. she wouldn't have wanted to push too hard on knux and the brotherhood at that point cuz she had scored a point with the lost tribe making its way there didn't she?
Why must Finitevus being Gala-Na's experiment gone wrong? All we know is that Albion is mentioned in the title of the story that's meant to explain Fini's origins - for all we know it could mean after reviving Enerjak, he heads straight to Albion and decimates the place. There's nothing to suggest he's beenn experimented on either, different fur colour doesn't mean there's anything extraordinary about him. There is far too much conjecture here that is being assumed as fact 
I think Elias and Sally not being obsessed with power may have to do with their age, and that they were rasied or had different experiences than what they would have had if they were raised in the palace their whole lives. Anyway I hope Elias and Sally never become obsessed with power, what I like about both of them is that they are kindhearted, for the most part.
Man, if Finetivus turns out to be a good guy gone bad, its gonna turn out something like this...
"Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to act as though you're angry either. Because, Knuckles. You are..."
*Clap clap* Well played, sir, well played.
Nice use of Photoshop, I agree.
The title is "Albion's Shameful Secret"; that doesn't imply that the city is ashamed because Finitevus shows up and starts blowing stuff up. It seems only logical that Finitevus' origin, as implied by the title, has to do with something done in Albion that the people are in no way proud of, most likely some kind of experiments that ended up creating the villain we all know and love. Maybe they were experimenting on him and it went wrong, maybe they didn't realize the full horror of what they were doing, or maybe they just didn't expect the end result to turn out evil, and so they're ashamed of it. At any rate, Finitevus isn't in Albion anymore, which indicates that he either left out of contempt for them or was driven out.
Gala-Na, when first shown, was probably thinking that the Lost Tribe was enough of a victory at the time. Demanding that the people of Angel Island return would have been too much to ask, and it still is now. Gala-Na is overdedicated to the idea of Echidna unity, though I haven't heard a thing about her approaching the Dark Legion. But the Guardians are even more stubborn than she is, the Echidnas are in too much of a fix to leave Angel Island anyway, and many of them are undoubtedly too attached to the island to ever want to leave it despite the feelings of some Echidnas.
Serious Post Spectre:
Well, maybe Gala-Ne's versIon of Echidna Unity isin't fully opposed to at least having a council with the DL? While we don't know her ancestry, I'm sure she's part of the magistrate that overruled Dimirti. Somehow. I just have this feeling every time I look at her chameleon butt >>
But anyway. Maybe Finitivus was supposed to be their answer to the Guardians now- as they did denounce the idea of Guardianship extending to their world on terra firma. With Robotnik suddenly going uber, they needed somethnig to aid them-and seeing how AI was faring, they needed it fast.
Hence during the Lost in Space Arc- on Terra Firma, we have this Albino Echidna imbued with dark magic somehow, and made into Finitivus.
In truth now, I do hope its Luger. That would just bring the Knuckles series full circle., How so? We had Tobor waling on Terra frima forever!!!! For-frickin EVER and then he finds the Floating Isle again?
Now, we have Luger, who just left after his second love died-probably wandered free of the Zone of Silence-and ended up finding another batch of Echindas I bet he never even THOUGHT about existing. Then you have Gala-Ne-KNOWING who he is, but instead of denying him entrance,-allows hij in to atone and find himself anew....
omg!
fangasm alert!
I'd be even MORE pleased if it was a 4th child of Luger-before he peacefully passed away. THAT-WOULD-ROCK so hard! I'm sick of all these Echidna Guardians/DL'ers (aside from Rembrant & Luger) having one danged kid -.-...
Interesting theories, Darkest Light.
By the way, does anyone remember that mysterious Guardian Hawking was shown with during footage of the Dingoes' nuclear attack on Echidnaopolis? Not sure if that guy's been confirmed as Mathias, Tobor, or someone else yet, but what if it's...Finitevus!
Of course, I still support the Luger idea for the reasons Darkest Light said, but I wanted to let everyone know that I'm open to other suggestions.
That Guardian was already confirmed to be Tobor. Whether it's Tobor or Moritobor we aren't sure of.
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The title is "Albion's Shameful Secret"; that doesn't imply that the city is ashamed because Finitevus shows up and starts blowing stuff up. It seems only logical that Finitevus' origin, as implied by the title, has to do with something done in Albion that the people are in no way proud of, most likely some kind of experiments that ended up creating the villain we all know and love. Maybe they were experimenting on him and it went wrong, maybe they didn't realize the full horror of what they were doing, or maybe they just didn't expect the end result to turn out evil, and so they're ashamed of it. At any rate, Finitevus isn't in Albion anymore, which indicates that he either left out of contempt for them or was driven out.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about. We know nothing about Finitevus or Albion or their relation to each other, you can't start saying "it's most likely blah blah blah", or "this indicates yakkity-yak" - you're an inch away from passing these things of as a fact, which you've done in the past; and there is absolutely nothing that backs up any of your theories. There's not a shred to suggest Finitevus is the result of some failed experiment - as I've said before, technology and magical prowess aren't the results of experimentation; and being a white echidna does not equal abnormal in some way, anymore than Amy being pink makes her an abnormal hedgehog.
Heheh, I've already mentioned that mysterious echidna with Hawking, a few pages back, but noone seemed overly interested in discussing him then. ^w^;
Nuclear attack on Echidnapolis? Back way when? And who what Von Stryker. Im confused ;-; Explanation?
