As much as people complain about Sally nowadays, I've lately been looking into why she's been acting this way, the "pshyco Sally" as some would like to call her. I posted this on FUS awhile back, but I've changed a few things since my opinions on a few aspects have changed recently. After delving into it, I found Archie Sally a more respectable character, and my liking for SatAM Sally has further dwindled. Overall, I think that Sal IS a strong character, just with a more emphasized set of flaws in comparison to the show (although I'm not so sure I'd say I'd approve of how Archie's doing it exactly) and obstacles to overcome.
As Rosie explained to Sonic in Sonic #89 Sal reacts irrationally at times because of extreme, (and most importantly) accumulative stress. Sally has always had this problem in the comic. Its nothing new. The circumstances are. Keep in mind in the pre-50 era, Sally usually had her friends, (more specifically Sonic most of the time) to lean on before her emotions could seriously crack like they have done. Without that, she's usually left to spiral more and more into the stresses given to her by others until she just blows up. Even in the SatAM bible, this type of Sally was indicated to be deep down inside her... never to really be exposed to the degree it was in Archie comics, probably due to the fact she had friends.
That's exactly what happened in Knuckles #29. Sally felt betrayed by Antione, her father, AND Knuckles. She's under the impression that they've been keeping secrets from her. Sally's not used to being kept out of the loop like this, especially from people so close to her. This stress over time built up. And with no one to pick her up, Sally, when she found out and encountered Antione, the king and Knuckles, she barked at all three of them in various parts of the comic when they were shown.
And she's done it on other occasions too. In Sonic Kids 2, Sally is desperately trying to get over the loss of her father. And she does this by hanging out with the friends and has a snowball fight...playing with them to keep her spirits up so that she doesn't fall emotionally.. just like Sally relies on her friends today. However, one of the snowballs fly into Rosie's hut, and she is scolded over the incident in front of her friends. Overwhelmed with having to come to terms with what she was trying to bury, and possibly being embarassed in front of her friends as well Sally broke down and cried. And then when her father tried getting Sally to marry Antione the first time, overwhelmed by her responsibilities, her father's constant secret-keeping, not not being able to be with Sonic.. and lack of contact with her friends at the moment she lashed out on him.
So knowing her history, was it really surprising she slapped Sonic?
1. Sally is taken from her friends to live in a palace alone, having to deal with an overbearing father, and secrets being kept from her left and right.. and to top it all off, the job she was raised and worked so hard to get as queen is now being taken away because of her brother (who mind you, has no experience or understanding to be a monarch) and the manipulative Geoffrey St. Jhon.
2. Sally is insecure because she feels she could lose Sonic to Mina. Even during #134, she's still a little insecure about Mina, as she drags Sonic away from her.. So its she's not exactly secure about it still.
3. Not long after Sonic becomes her boyfriend he supposedly dies; She has just lost one her most closest friends, her boyfriend, and consort.
4.Sally can't rely on her friends to help her because they have to battle on the front lines.
5. Sally must also deal with knowing that the Freedom Fighter group, and her friends she worked so hard to create is falling apart (Bunnie is broken up with Antione and explains that old times are gone, and Sonic's death affected all of them not just Sally).
6.Sonic comes back only for her fears to be realized again when M nearly kills him.
7.Sally asks Sonic to fulfill his duties as her consort and he refuses. Now at first glace, that may not seem as a big deal, but it is for Sally. Here's why.
a. The friend she's relied on the most has now in her mind betrayed her when she needs him the most. Sonic promised to be there for Sally when he agreed to be her consort, and now (despite understandable reasoning that Sally isn't comprehending due to stress) bails on her. Sally has been in emotional turmouil for the last year, and ruling is going to be somewhat stressful, especially alone and without her friends to be by her side as she does her job.
b. Sally is embarassed in front of not only her people, but her entire family... specifically the father she tried so hard to convince that Sonic would be worthy as her husband, when he told her not to pursue him.
c. Sally because Sonic refuses to step up to responsibility must now constantly worry about whether or not anything will happen to him when he goes out on the frontlines.
d. Sally, who had once beleived that she meant more than anything to Sonic must now deal with the fact that she never meant more to him than his adventuring. Which she sees little more than "punching Robotnik's lights out", because she feels that there are enough people to fight in his place.
With all these burdens piling up one by one, and without the problems ever being fully reconciled, and never really having anyone to pick her up for an extended period of time Sally is at her limit, and well.... slaps Sonic, the current link to a lot of her stress. Now, a lot of you may ask: Well, if Sally always had it in her to do this, then why haven't we ever seen her do something as drastic as physically hurting anyone? The answer I'd give is simple. Sally's never had stress accumulate this badly before. We also have to consider that a lot of Sally's newer problems are very new to her. She's never experienced these problems, and unlike in the past, she's now doesn't have her friends to help her up when she falls. Sally is all alone.
So yes. Sally is emotional. And while it may annoy fans at times, her feelings are not unjustified. A good question I'd like to give pro and anti Sally fans who constantly complain about her actions is: could you do any better? How would they being forced to handle all that pressure? Having it accumulate to that point? And does it kill Sally to have any detractable characteristics?
At first I looked at the fans as to why nobody caught onto this, but now I'm looking more at the writers as well.
Sure they've talked about her character under stress, but I think that the concept was IMO underemphasized, and lacked depth. Now when I talk about this, I don't mean her depression in general. I'm talking more about how she acts under pressure, and how that's contributed to a lot of her actions as of late.
Recently, I've grown to respect, and yes, even like the Archie Sally; She's a strong young woman, but at the same time she's not without her own set of flaws. While I'm not saying I condone everything she does, that goes for any charachter or person I do happen to like. She isn't just some ideal feminist poster child, or some cookie-cutter character. She's been developed to be "human"...er "mobian". And I feel part of being human is having our sets of flaws. Not just (sympathetic) weaknesses, but literally detractable charachteristics. I guess that's just what sets SatAM and Archie Sally apart. SatAM Sally seemed to fit what feminists wanted or the typical "Disney" princess at the time. She had weaknesses true, but they weren't very detractable and were pretty sympathetic. So she didn't come off as deep and realistic to me personally.
If 'resorting to physical violence when one can't have one's own way' is a trait you hold in high regard, then I'll have to remember never o get on your bad side.
Because, honestly, that's all it boils down to: Sally wanted Sonic, and she wanted the relationship to work on her terms. Perhaps the months they'd been seperated caused her to forget, but Sonic doen't allow himself to be ruled by Sally, King Acorn, or anyone else.
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If 'resorting to physical violence when one can't have one's own way' is a trait you hold in high regard, then I'll have to remember never o get on your bad side.
Who said I held physical violence in high regaurd? I'm getting the impression that your talking about Sonic and Sally's issue where she slapped him. I hold in high regaurd the fact that there was an attempt to fleshen her out, and making her "human" by giving her detractable characteristics. I never said anything about the detractable characteristic being a right or wrong way of handling something.
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Perhaps the months they'd been seperated caused her to forget, but Sonic doen't allow himself to be ruled by Sally, King Acorn, or anyone else.
She knows Sonic's stubborn, but that's hardly the point. When Sonic said he'd be her consort he was making an agreement, a promise to her that he'd be at her side. Sonic "made" the choice. Sonic, while its understandable that he'd want to fight Robotnik and adventure, especially after looking at what's going on, broke his word in Sally's mind, and she must now deal with ruling the kingdom alone.
Sounds like Sally needs to find herself a new snag.
~Rico
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However, one of the snowballs fly into Rosie's hut, and she is scolded over the incident in front of her friends. Overwhelmed with having to come to terms with what she was trying to bury, and possibly being embarassed in front of her friends as well Sally broke down and cried.
yes...I totally see how this is completely out of it for any five-year old, and totally related to how shes been acting recently..
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A good question I'd like to give pro and anti Sally fans who constantly complain about her actions is: could you do any better? How would they being forced to handle all that pressure?
Then let me counter with an equally good question: can you honestly say that you belive the preassure Sally is facing now is greater than what she faced when she waged a nigh never-ending war against a foe with limitless supplies and resources, an enemy, which is devouring the very planet they live on and its people with ruthless efficiency day by day, while still keping a brave face to those she hold dear, so not to make them lose hope that they will ever win this seemingly hopeless struggle, and at the same time act as leader and moral backbone to the last lingering remnants of what was once her people-to-be?
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can you honestly say that you belive the preassure Sally is facing now is greater than what she faced when she waged a nigh never-ending war against a foe with limitless supplies and resources, an enemy, which is devouring the very planet they live on and its people with ruthless efficiency day by day, while still keping a brave face to those she hold dear, so not to make them lose hope that they will ever win this seemingly hopeless struggle, and at the same time act as leader and moral backbone to the last lingering remnants of what was once her people-to-be?
Greater? No.
Does she have the ability to cope as well as before? No.
That is the point being made. Sally is currently on her own without the support she's used to having and that is what is driving much of her actions. I think most of us agree with that as that is one of the reasons a lot of people want Sally to be able to hang out with the others more than she does--since it seems it's even less frequently than before that she does.
Actually, Shorty hit on a lot of things that are why I prefer Archie's Sally to SatAM's Sally though I like both very much. Of course part of it is Sal acting more like a mini-me in Archie than SatAM with things such as "the slap" in #134 and her comments about her people coming before Sonic in #144 being some of the more recent things helping.
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Then let me counter with an equally good question: can you honestly say that you belive the preassure Sally is facing now is greater than what she faced when she waged a nigh never-ending war against a foe with limitless supplies and resources, an enemy, which is devouring the very planet they live on and its people with ruthless efficiency day by day, while still keping a brave face to those she hold dear, so not to make them lose hope that they will ever win this seemingly hopeless struggle, and at the same time act as leader and moral backbone to the last lingering remnants of what was once her people-to-be?
That's precisely what he's saying. He's also saying that the difference between SatAM and now is that Sally's emotional safety valve--her friends--are growing increasingly further away from her. Hence, the wild outbursts.
Hopefully, now, with her brother in the hot seat, Sally can do a little adveturing of her own. And stop attempting to living up to other people's impressions of her. She never was a prim, proper little girly-girl. I mean, who says royals can't be military leaders?
-Shakudo-
"Rouge teams up with...Cream?"
Shorty Chan, my point was that while you find Sally admirable, I think your stated reasons just don't cut it for me. All you've managed to prove is that Sally is reacting like a spoiled brat who's angry at Sonic for not seeing things her way. Any rational individual would not expect Sonic to accept Sally's terms. And if Sally were more mature, she wouldn't have acted as childishly/selfishly/violently as she did.
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Then let me counter with an equally good question: can you honestly say that you belive the preassure Sally is facing now is greater than what she faced when she waged a nigh never-ending war against a foe with limitless supplies and resources, an enemy, which is devouring the very planet they live on and its people with ruthless efficiency day by day, while still keping a brave face to those she hold dear, so not to make them lose hope that they will ever win this seemingly hopeless struggle, and at the same time act as leader and moral backbone to the last lingering remnants of what was once her people-to-be?
Actually, Sally has far greater pressure on her now because the situation has become more complicated.
In the early days, everything was simple: some brave comrades risking life and limb to restore the kindgom. Now, there's much more at stake: Sally (and Sonic and everyone else) has to worry about their family. And civillians. If Robotnik had attacked Knothole during the early days, then that was the end of them, but that's the risk they signed up for. If Robotnik attacks Knothole now, there are thousands of innocent lives on the line.
To complicate matters further, there are levels of beuraucracy that simply didn't exist before. Now, they have to worry about varying teams, the miliraty, foreign powers, and all other such things.
Anyway, I don't think the issue is Sally herself. I think it's the writers.
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Shorty Chan, my point was that while you find Sally admirable, I think your stated reasons just don't cut it for me.
I'm not saying that you need to admire her for the reasons I do.
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All you've managed to prove is that Sally is reacting like a spoiled brat who's angry at Sonic for not seeing things her way.
You make it seem like it's all Sally's fault. Let's not forget here that Sonic told her he'd be her consort. He went back on his word. So she's a spoiled brat because she's frustrated at the fact someone extremely close to her broke their word? Not only was it their word, but more importantly, giving his word that he'd be her consort meant so much to her in a time where she is up her neck in problems with no one who pick her up when she falls. And now she has to deal with handling the burden of ruling by herself because he wants out all of a sudden despite what he told her. Ontop of that again is the humiliation, betrayl, and having to come to terms with the fact she never meant to Sonic as much as she thought she did. Sonic being VERY important to her. All these problems at once.
I'm not saying slapping Sonic was the best way to express her frustrations, but is it necessary to look at Sally as someone who must always handle her her frustrations the morally best or good way in order to be an overall good person? I can say that no one in this world could live up to that expectation, so I don't hold Sally down as a "bad charachter" because she like everyone else has times where she slips up.
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Any rational individual would not expect Sonic to accept Sally's terms.
Sally has depended and trusted Sonic since she was a small child. She even said in issue 109 when you're in a pinch he's someone you can depend on. She also described him as considerate for others. That is how is how Sally veiwed him after all these years, and her basis for that is simply what she saw. What she never saw included his frustrations over not being able to fight Robotnik once he was over during Mobotropolis' redeveloping period in Sonic #54 for instance. So when Sally receives word from Sonic that he'd be her consort she beleives him because of the fact when she's been in trouble before she knew that she could always depend on him. So again, I see it as perfectly rational for Sally because she's never seen him frustrated with being excluded from the fastlane life like he is now.
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And if Sally were more mature, she wouldn't have acted as childishly/selfishly/violently as she did.
So yes it's a flaw that Sally doesn't act as mature as people would expect when under stress, but it's happened before and I even listed instances. Not to mention there's a difference between her and a child. For one thing, simple mistakes can frustrate a child whereas accumulative stress, stress that puts more people at serious risk, and other more mature issues (that I doubt even most adults experience in their entire lifetime) is what has choked Sally.
And Yes, she is selfish. But my sister has been telling me lately when it comes down to it we're all selfish. It's just a matter of our behavior helping others in our process of being selfish, or our actions becoming totally focused at helping no one but ourselves for that particular moment.Sally exhibitting selfishness isn't going to turn me away from her charachter. With all her stress she needs to focus on putting herself back on track. How can you think to fix the world's problems when your own are still untouched?
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yes...I totally see how this is completely out of it for any five-year old, and totally related to how shes been acting recently..
If you're being sarcastic I'll do my best to explain. The reason why I showed Sally breaking down under accumulative stress was because I wanted it to be understood that this has been a problem she has had since she was little. If you are looking for more recent factors of stress I listed some in my first post. Also, while it is not "completely" out of it for a five year old to break down under stress, it is not "completely" unheard of for 17 year olds to break under pressure either, or adults for that matter.
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In the early days, everything was simple: some brave comrades risking life and limb to restore the kindgom.
simple story perhaps, hardly a simple life...or rather, hardly an easy life.
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If Robotnik attacks Knothole now, there are thousands of innocent lives on the line.
attack with what exactly? The populace that served as an army under him is now fighting against him, his supposed IQ of 300 is dropping by the minute and he now has an standing army of pissed off mobians standing against him. Knotholes location isnt a secret anymore, so thats not whats keeping him from attacking...he seems to be more into threatening station square or assassinating pop-stars...
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You make it seem like it's all Sally's fault. Let's not forget here that Sonic told her he'd be her consort
im sorry, but i dont really remember this one. I was under the impression that this was something Sally assumed, and didnt straight out tell Sonic about it until onstage...
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And Yes, she is selfish. But my sister has been telling me lately when it comes down to it we're all selfish.
you or your sister wouldnt happen to be Miko?
For the love of god, please go out and get laid.
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attack with what exactly? The populace that served as an army under him is now fighting against him, his supposed IQ of 300 is dropping by the minute and he now has an standing army of pissed off mobians standing against him. Knotholes location isnt a secret anymore, so thats not whats keeping him from attacking...he seems to be more into threatening station square or assassinating pop-stars...
I'm not arguing that the odds are worse. I'm arguing that the stakes are higher.
In those days, things were difficult but fairly simple. Nowadays, things are easier but far more complicated.
Back then, Sally was fighting a guerilla war. Now, she's fighting a full-scale war, not to mention ruling a nation that didn't exist a year and a half ago. Slip-ups are less likely, but more diastrous if they occur.
im sorry, but i dont really remember this one. I was under the impression that this was something Sally assumed, and didnt straight out tell Sonic about it until onstage...
Well, considering all the hints and gestures those two have been making each other, I guess Sally felt it was okay in her book to tell Sonic in stage in front of a gazillion people.
~Neo
There are times I prefer the Sat a.m. Sally to the Archie Sally now. I think there are times she becomes too self-sacficing for the "good of the kingdom" to the point of being degrading. Also, I didn't like her behavior towards Sonic that caused their break up, though Sonic's behavoir wasn't perfect either. To Sally's credit she did seem remoseful about it later. I guess I just perfer a stronger, more straight forward Sally(that is the best I can describe it), even if she that means her character doesn't have a lot of depth.
Off-topic, I did get an e-mail message over the weekend that the message board move it close at hand. I understand why you would want to change, especially since ezboard was hacked. It should be easy to get to the new board when the change happens, right?
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There are times I prefer the Sat a.m. Sally to the Archie Sally now. I think there are times she becomes too self-sacficing for the "good of the kingdom" to the point of being degrading.
I think many people need to understand and accept the fact that while Sally loves Sonic, she loves her people over him, and if they need something, they come first. Same with Sonic. Sonic will never love any girl over the people, and adventuring is how he feels he can contribute to them the best.
If Sally were just some average princess, then maybe the people wouldn't matter as much to her as they do, and I would agree upon the notion that Sally only does things for them just because she feels its her duty as princess. But I think we can all agree that Sally never lived the life of an "ordinary princess" in either the comics or the cartoon. She's a people's princess. Sally has LIVED with these people in Knothole ever since she was five years old. She's lived their lives, and their struggles, and has eaten, laughed, made friens and cried with these people. For something more current, Sonic #144's "Love and Loss". She still keeps contact with them, and is still aiding them, now via love advice. In that issue she also made clear how she empathizes with her people about the war.
In other words, Sal has a bond with the people that most princesses don't get. As a result, Sally has a very strong dedication to her people that's stronger than most rulers aspiring the throne, and she'll do anything to help them. Sally simply uses her title with the idea that she'll aid the people which monarchs are pretty much supposed to in the first place (but don't always do).
I think what gets you, as well as many others is the fact when Sally's dedication gets her doing things people wouldn't want her to do. Especially when it contributed to Sally not being with Sonic. Your entitled to that opinion.
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I guess I just perfer a stronger, more straight forward Sally(that is the best I can describe it), even if she that means her character doesn't have a lot of depth.
Not everyone's going to like deep characters, but I feel that it doesn't kill to have any. The Sonic verse is already plagued with shallow characters IMO. I personally don't want to see anymore of them. You may think that Archie Sally is weaker, but its not that she grew any weaker, its that circumstances changed which resulted in her emotional support (her friends) not being in the equation as much which eventually caused a lot of stress for her.
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im sorry, but i dont really remember this one. I was under the impression that this was something Sally assumed, and didnt straight out tell Sonic about it until onstage...
No, by Sonic #124, it was apparent to even Sonic what Sally had planned for their future. She even asked Sonic if he was ready to bring the idea to her parents and brought Sonic up to her parents and told them that she wanted him as her consort. And not once did Sonic complain. Even in #134, Sally notes that Sonic IS supposed to be her consort, he acknowleges it instead of acting dumbfounded. So its not like Sonic didn't know Sally's intentions, he just wasn't thinking about the reprocussions that might've taken place agreeing to something like that. A continous flaw of Sonic's character from the beginning.
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you or your sister wouldnt happen to be Miko?
No,I'm not Miko, and second, she's my older sister and I'm leaving it at that. the topic isn't about "Miko", its about Sally, and appreciate it if it stayed that way.
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attack with what exactly? The populace that served as an army under him is now fighting against him, his supposed IQ of 300 is dropping by the minute and he now has an standing army of pissed off mobians standing against him. Knotholes location isnt a secret anymore, so thats not whats keeping him from attacking...he seems to be more into threatening station square or assassinating pop-stars...
You might not think that he's a big threat, but its the risk that's important. I mean, did the royal family think Julian was a threat? And look what happened. Everyone was a caught into another war that's still not entirely won, and has lasted well over ten years. again, its the threat that counts, and Robotnik Prime/Julian brought that to home. And you also have to consider that this isn't meant for your age audience so while it may not seem menacing to you, it might to someone the comic's more targetted to.
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simple story perhaps, hardly a simple life...or rather, hardly an easy life.
What Dirk said. Plus, her friends aren't there for her as much anymore.
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No,I'm not Miko, and second, she's my older sister and I'm leaving it at that. the topic isn't about "Miko", its about Sally, and appreciate it if it stayed that way.
no need to get defensive, I just found the use of that particular reasoning to farmiliar to be a coincidence...and the reasoning that everything an individual does is in the end selfish, whether used by you or Miko, is inherently flawed.
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Off-topic, I did get an e-mail message over the weekend that the message board move it close at hand. I understand why you would want to change, especially since ezboard was hacked. It should be easy to get to the new board when the change happens, right?
Yeah. You can view/post at the testing board now and this should be read before asking some questions.
Edit: Link to the FAQ changed. ;p
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the reasoning that everything an individual does is in the end selfish, whether used by you or Miko, is inherently flawed.
Is it? Can you name a situation that's selfless. your entitled to that opinion, but I disagree with that. I feel that people do things because it fulfills them in some way. For instance, let's take Mina (One of the Sonic communities most "popular" refferences to the term "selflessness"). She took the bullet for Sally, but why? She didn't just do it "just because". Mina did it because she knew that it'd make Sonic happy. That, and doing the right thing personally fulfilled her, it made her feel good about herself. Same with characters like Maria as well. Its still selfish, however because the core reason these people did these things were due to self fulfillment. Same for all humans/mobians. We do things because it benifits us in some way. However, I beleive that society has brainwashed people with the idea that people can actually attain a level of selflessness.
There is a difference though between selfishness that in turn helps others (or, self fullfillment by helping others), or self fullfilment that helps no one but one's self at that moment.
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She took the bullet for Sally, but why? She didn't just do it "just because". Mina did it because she knew that it'd make Sonic happy. That, and doing the right thing personally fulfilled her, it made her feel good about herself.
Talk to people who have been wounded in the Iraq war. You know, people who have been shot. Ask them if getting shot feels good. I suspect you'll find the general consesnus that getting shot does not make one feel good about themselves.
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Same with characters like Maria as well.
I don't see how Maria is anything like this. Maria didn't take a bullet for anyone... that bullet was intended for her.
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Its still selfish, however because the core reason these people did these things were due to self fulfillment. Same for all humans/mobians. We do things because it benifits us in some way.
That's illogical. If we achieve fulfillment from helping others, then that's selflessness.
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Talk to people who have been wounded in the Iraq war. You know, people who have been shot. Ask them if getting shot feels good. I suspect you'll find the general consesnus that getting shot does not make one feel good about themselves.
I think you're asking the wrong question. Ask them do they feel good about serving their country, or what they beleived was right.
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I don't see how Maria is anything like this. Maria didn't take a bullet for anyone... that bullet was intended for her.
Look at Shadow the Hedgehog (the game). Maria could've escaped but didn't try to right away because she wanted to help Shadow and the staff escape. I wasn't evaluating Mina and Maria's injuries or how they got injured.
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That's illogical. If we achieve fulfillment from helping others, then that's selflessness.
No. Selflessness is what I feel is illogical. Because because acheiving fulfillment for no matter "good" the reason is, is still selfish because we are at the very least emotionally benifitting off of something.
I'm glad she slapped Sonic. I always thought Sonic's attitude in the comics was a bit too loose cannonish. He almost comes off as being a jerk. I want the Sally from Brave New World back...I thought she showed her toughness as a leader and her sympathetic side...or maybe that's just me.
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Is it?
put frankly: yes, because it excludes the fact that humans are in nature social animals, and it likens the practice of ones own ethics, morale and principles to personal gain, which makes it, as I said,
"inherently flawed".
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Selflessness is what I feel is illogical. Because because acheiving fulfillment for no matter "good" the reason is, is still selfish because we are at the very least emotionally benifitting off of something.
If humans were solitary animals, then selflessness would be highly illogical, unless its a mother to her offspring. We are not, and it isnt. You say there are selfish actions that benefit others, but if I turn that around there can also be selfless actions that benefits oneself.
...and no, likening humans to animals is not far-fetched, there is really no difference. When it all boils down, instincts can tell you whats natural.
Once I saw a close friend of mine being jumped by seven guys. By my own nature, I instinctively recognized the unfairness of this situation, and jumped into the fray and got him out of it. Since I acted upon instincts, thought, and thus choice and decision, never played into it. I can't say I benefited very much from this emotionally, either. He avoided physical harm, I avoided physical harm, and he might have learned something...how was this selfish, from my perspective?
Would you say a lion or wolf protecting its flock/pack is selfish, as well? Or ants performing near-suicidal attacks to protect the anthill? was the kamikaze-pilots of WWII selfish, since they felt good about dying for their country?
I think you go by the reasoning that anything that benefits oneself even the slightest is selfish, which is untrue. Anything that benefits me, but to my knowledge works negatively on others can be considered selfish. Something that benefits me more then it benefits others, but still does effect others in a positive way that wouldn't have happened if I had not performed said action, cannot.
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Maria could've escaped but didn't try to right away because she wanted to help Shadow and the staff escape. I wasn't evaluating Mina and Maria's injuries or how they got injured.
so, by your own reasoning, Maria was selfish. She stayed behind to help the people she cared for, achieving emotional benefit from her actions, and got killed.
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I think you're asking the wrong question. Ask them do they feel good about serving their country, or what they beleived was right.
...and by your reasoning: should the answer be yes, then they have been selfish in being shot, for that bullet could as well have hit someone else, making the other person feel good about him or herself (should he or she survive), instead of the person it did hit?
Is it? Can you name a situation that's selfless. your entitled to that opinion, but I disagree with that. I feel that people do things because it fulfills them in some way. For instance, let's take Mina (One of the Sonic communities most "popular" refferences to the term "selflessness"). She took the bullet for Sally, but why? She didn't just do it "just because". Mina did it because she knew that it'd make Sonic happy. That, and doing the right thing personally fulfilled her, it made her feel good about herself. Same with characters like Maria as well. Its still selfish, however because the core reason these people did these things were due to self fulfillment. Same for all humans/mobians. We do things because it benifits us in some way. However, I beleive that society has brainwashed people with the idea that people can actually attain a level of selflessness.
There is a difference though between selfishness that in turn helps others (or, self fullfillment by helping others), or self fullfilment that helps no one but one's self at that moment.
Funny, last time I checked, helping someone in need ended up in the same definition as "selfless."
~Neo
The argument that talking a bullet for someone is selfish makes my brain hurt.
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put frankly: yes, because it excludes the fact that humans are in nature social animals,
For one thing humans intend to get fulfillment through socialzing. So how is the act of being an animal who socializes deter from the fact humans are ultimately always seeking their own best interests?
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If humans were solitary animals, then selflessness would be highly illogical, unless its a mother to her offspring. We are not, and it isnt. You say there are selfish actions that benefit others, but if I turn that around there can also be selfless actions that benefits oneself.
Which means there is to some degree selfishness within the act itself because self fullfillment was received through helping others.
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Once I saw a close friend of mine being jumped by seven guys. By my own nature, I instinctively recognized the unfairness of this situation,
First of all it is not instinctive to help others. There are many humans who would look at that and run, even if they were close. For instance very recently a girl was being attacked, her sister fled, and the girl died. Unfairness is also opinionated as well. You adapt a stand on issues, and that you are comfortable with.
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I can't say I benefited very much from this emotionally,
but you can tell yourself you did the "right thing."
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Funny, last time I checked, helping someone in need ended up in the same definition as "selfless."
but it is the fact people can attain self fullfillment that way that makes it contradictory to the meaning of something selfless, hence making it a faulty example. We have the ability to choose. Our choices all work to our own interests to some degree so all of our choices are going to be some degree selfish.
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For one thing humans intend to get fulfillment through socialzing. So how is the act of being an animal who socializes deter from the fact humans are ultimately always seeking their own best interests?
Because it means that we by nature stick together and help eachother, expecting the same if the situation was reversed.
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but it is the fact people can attain self fullfillment that way that makes it contradictory to the meaning of something selfless, hence making it a faulty example.
what good is "self-fullfilment" if you die from your choices? For the last time: the definition of selfless does not forbid you to feel good about it, and you cannot liken the practice of ones own morals, principles and ethics to personal gain!
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Unfairness is also opinionated as well.
seven to one against a wall is fair when?
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First of all it is not instinctive to help others. There are many humans who would look at that and run, even if they were close. For instance very recently a girl was being attacked, her sister fled, and the girl died.
that would depend on how close you are to your insticts, and how much you let choice play a part. also, gender plays in here, since males most of the time has a stronger urge to fight. Females on the other hand, can generally compensate that by being smarter. maybe she was getting someone, and misjudged time...
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but you can tell yourself you did the "right
thing."
as I said, I only acted by my nature, making what I did not the right thing, but the only thing.
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Which means there is to some degree selfishness within the act itself because self fullfillment was received through helping others.
I think Im starting to see what you're getting at, but it still includes a very warped perception on what is "selfish" and "self-less".
If all actions are in the end selfish, and there are no selfless actions, there cannot be any selfish actions either, only actions.
or, if there is a degree of both selfishness and selflessnes in all actions, then a selfish action would be one that benefits you and you alone, while in some way working negatively on others. on the other hand, a "selfless" action would be an action that benefits one or more people that are not you more than it benefits yourself.
and you still havent answered many of the questions i posted in my previous post:
Would you say a lion or wolf protecting its flock/pack is selfish, as well? Or ants performing near-suicidal attacks to protect the anthill? was the kamikaze-pilots of WWII selfish, since they felt good about dying for their country
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Maria could've escaped but didn't try to right away because she wanted to help Shadow and the staff escape. I wasn't evaluating Mina and Maria's injuries or how they got injured.
so, by your own reasoning, Maria was selfish? She stayed behind to help the people she cared for, achieving emotional benefit from her actions, and got killed.
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I think you're asking the wrong question. Ask them do they feel good about serving their country, or what they beleived was right.
...and by your reasoning: should the answer be yes, then they have been selfish in being shot, for that bullet could as well have hit someone else, making the other person feel good about him or herself (should he or she survive), instead of the person it did hit?
but it is the fact people can attain self fullfillment that way that makes it contradictory to the meaning of something selfless, hence making it a faulty example. We have the ability to choose. Our choices all work to our own interests to some degree so all of our choices are going to be some degree selfish.
Dude. She took a bullet for Sonic and Sally. You wanna actually say she's selfish in her face after she nearly got herself killed? Not a lot of people would take a bullet for their loved ones.
~Neo
Unless that said bullet unlocked a hidden power that required a mortal wound so that it might activate...er wait, wrong forum.
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You wanna actually say she's selfish in her face after she nearly got herself killed?
Like I've been saying, everyone is to some degree selfish. Mina took that bullet for Sally so that Sonic could be happy with her. Knowing Sonic was with Sally made her sad yes, but it also fulfilled her in a sense that she felt she had done the "right thing" for Sonic. That was what fulfilled her, what she got out of it.
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Because it means that we by nature stick together and help eachother, expecting the same if the situation was reversed.
It still doesn't deter from the point I was trying to make. We're social creatures because we benefit by socializing and because of this, we do so. You yourself even admitted that we expect things in return for our good deeds. Humans have had the choice whether or not they want to socialize, whether or not they want to help others, and some would even prefer isolation. But it usually more beneficial as humans to be social, so many of us in turn will socialize with others.
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what good is "self-fullfilment" if you die from your choices?
Usually, people don't go seeking emotional benefits with the intentions to die, and if they do its usually because whatever cause they died for fulfills them much more than if they didn't do it for their specific cause. They're willing to risk their lives for a cause yes, but that doesn't mean that is usually the goal. That's like saying people who take drugs don't seek benefit in what they're doing. Because they could die they automatically put the drugs away. No, that's not how it works. People addicted often do risk their health and thus their lives for a 'high' physically, emotionally, etc..
And we also have to consider the fact that most humans beleive in an "afterlife", a life after death.
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seven to one against a wall is fair when?
Again, it's all in one's opinion. For example: anyone can say, "It's what God wills" and leave him there with the idea they deserve the situation there in because they feel God has done so. That way of thinking has been one in which many people have.
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maybe she was getting someone, and misjudged time...
No, she was trying to get out of harm's way. I'm not going to go that far into it though. As delving too deep in the story would give away my school's location which isn't a very safe thing to do.
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as I said, I only acted by my nature, making what I did not the right thing, but the only thing.
It's not "your nature" as in something you had to be like the moment you were born. It may be you acting by a combination of your ethics and personality but you weren't born needing to act this way. It wasn't the only thing you could've done, you could've easily ran away. It was never the only thing to do but it was the only choice you could feel good about.
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Would you say a lion or wolf protecting its flock/pack is selfish, as well? Or ants performing near-suicidal attacks to protect the anthill? was the kamikaze-pilots of WWII selfish, since they felt good about dying for their country
Yes. If they gained anything out of their actions it is some degree selfish.
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so, by your own reasoning, Maria was selfish? She stayed behind to help the people she cared for, achieving emotional benefit from her actions, and got killed.
Yes, but she wasn't actively seeking to die, she was actively seeking to help others. she didn't pull the trigger. She was selfish when helping others for emotional benefit. But she wasn't doing it with the intention to die, in fact she planned to leave ARK once everyone was secure.
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...and by your reasoning: should the answer be yes, then they have been selfish in being shot, for that bullet could as well have hit someone else,
No, they haven't been selfish in being shot they had been selfish for trying to save someone else for that emotional benefit that they would risk their lives to get.
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for that bullet could as well have hit someone else, making the other person feel good about him or herself (should he or she survive)
Yep, but there is nothing that would've implied that someone else would've taken the bullet.
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For the last time: the definition of selfless does not forbid you to feel good about it
Yes it does.
Here's a definition of selflessness:
"Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no concern for oneself; unselfish"
At the heart to all decisions, we consider ourselves or how WE would benifit off of it. So that's why I feel that there's no such thing as being selfless.
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and you cannot liken the practice of ones own morals, principles and ethics to personal gain!
Again, yes you can. If you feel good about practicing these, you are practicing your morals for personal gain/fullfillment. Feeling you did the right thing according to your own moral code is also selfish.
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Here's a definition of selflessness:
"Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no concern for oneself; unselfish"
why do you give me a definition of selfless, when you yourelf stated that there is no such thing?
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It still doesn't deter from the point I was trying to make. We're social creatures because we benefit by socializing and because of this, we do so.
If it benefits all, how can it be selfish?
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Usually, people don't go seeking emotional benefits with the intentions to die
*puts on a white bandana with a sunrise in red*
KAMIKAZEEEEEEE! *poof*
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No, she was trying to get out of harm's way. I'm not going to go that far into it though. As delving too deep in the story would give away my school's location which isn't a very safe thing to do.
fair enough
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Again, yes you can. If you feel good about practicing these, you are practicing your morals for personal gain/fullfillment. Feeling you did the right thing according to your own moral code is also selfish.
helping those in need = selfish...
defending the weak = selfish
taking a bullet for a loved one = selfish
taking a bullet for someone you dont love = even more selfish
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Yep, but there is nothing that would've implied that someone else would've taken the bullet.
someone else NOT taking the bullet makes it a missed shot, so, in effect, its selfish stepping into the trajectory of a bullet?
...and wouldnt that make it unbselfish to shoot someone?
You're going all over the place here. According to you, there is no such thing as a selfless act because you gain some feeling of having done good, and that's your benefit. What you're missing is the matter of priority. If the person did the action BECAUSE they wanted that feeling of having done good, it was selfish. But do you think that was their ultimate goal? Mina may have felt some good in what she did, but I doubt that that's why she threw herself in front of a bullet - she did do it for the sake of Sonic's happiness, and in a way at the cost of her own, which is selflessness. The fact that she may have happened to gain some emotional benefit is an aside that can't really be avoided (I'm sure the vast majority of people do feel good for helping others), but doing so wasn't the purpose behind the act. That's how you draw the line between selfish and selfless.
It's a matter of motivation, of intention. Those you're using as examples may have felt some good or peace in what they'd done, but it wasn't why they did it.
In all honesty, after reading the whole thing, there's only one problem with Shorty's argument. It's ignoring the fact that the reverse is also true. There is pretty much no such thing as an action that is 100% selfless. There is pretty much no such thing as an action that is 100% selfish.
Shorty's argument is basically similar to the theory that everyone has a bit of the main extreme sexualities (homosexuality, heterosexuality, asexuality) within themself no matter what they consider themselves to be. Her entire argument is a parallel of that theory.
She's not arguing that degrees of selflessness/selfishness don't exist. She's just arguing that precious little can be considered truly selfless by pointing out the "selfish" factor of "selfless" actions. She should also acknowledge that taking her theory to its logical conclusion, precious little can be truly selfish either.
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She should also acknowledge that taking her theory to its logical conclusion, precious little can be truly selfish either.
which is not what she's been doing, rather, she's been claiming that all actions are (more or less) selfish. while this is to some degree true, she has also claimed selflessnes to be non-existant, inadveredly voiding her first argument, and in doing so concluded that there is neither selfish or selfless actions, only actions...which I belive I stated at some point.
Agree with both True Red and Ingjald. Yes, there is no perfect selfless as far as I know, too.
~Neo
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why do you give me a definition of selfless, when you yourelf stated that there is no such thing?
To prove that there is no such thing as selflessness because it requires the absence of any selfishness.
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If it benefits all, how can it be selfish?
Because all includes you.
anyway to quote myself...
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At the heart to all decisions, we consider ourselves or how WE would benifit off of it. So that's why I feel that there's no such thing as being selfless.
which means this at the root of all of our decisions I think we're selfish to some extent. That doesn't mean we cannot consider anyone outside of ourselves when making decisions (despite the fact our reasoning for that would be self fulfillment), or that we don't have any concern for others. I'm simply saying I don't really feel there is such a thing as selflessness because it implies the actions we take have no consideration for ourselves, when at the root of it all things we do have some hint of concern for our own well being. I'll provide an example:
Mina took the bullet for Sally so Sonic could be happy.
CLEARLY, Mina was considering Sonic in this situation. So I'm not saying humans aren't capeable of empathy for others. What I am saying is that Mina considered Sonic's feelings because she felt it was the right thing to do and would be fulfilled by doing what he wanted. Thus at the root of her decision there is some selfishness because she felt fulfilled by what she had done. As for the issue of priority, Mina is thinking about Sonic's happiness, but because the root of her decision is self fullfillment (by seeing Sonic happy), I could say she is her own priority just like everyone else.
Honestly though, I don't always look at selfishness as a bad thing. I simply see it as something that just sorta is, if that makes any sense.
I think both sides are right to a certain extent. On one hand, human nature is selfish, at the same time humans have the desire for friendship and companionship, and can at times put the interest of their friends ahead of their own. Human nature is a complicated thing to explain.
Sorry to bring this up, but I have to admit that Sally's breakup with Sonic and the behaviors behind it are part of the reason I lean towards liking Sally better on Sonic Sat a.m. but it is not the whole reason. While Sally had her depressed, sad, moments in Sonic Sat a.m., they seem to happen more often in the comic and I hate seeing Sally like that. Plus there are times she seems weak. Also, I have figured out why I don't like that line in "Love and Loss" about Sally loving her people more than Sonic. It is not the line itself, it is the way some fans use the line to try to show that Sonic and Sally shouldn't and will not get back together, where I came from that story hopefull that Sonic and Sally will eventally reconcile(in spite of everything).
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While Sally had her depressed, sad, moments in Sonic Sat a.m., they seem to happen more often in the comic and I hate seeing Sally like that.
Well Sally had her friends within the series itself. Not to mention the SatAM version was a lot more open with expressing her feelings. The comic version didn't always express her feelings and had to be confronted by friends until she decided to do so. In SIYF she didn't initially want to let her friends in on her personal journey. In Sonic 122, Sally didn't want to let Bunnie in on her insecurities with Sonic and Mina and wouldn't have unless Bunnie pried further, which she did.
Sally isn't always open about seeking help. To add salt to the wound, she lives in the palace and thus deals with her stress alone. Then to make it worse, she's dealing with problems neither she or her figures of support are familiar with. Perhaps it is because of this she seems weak, but don't we all have our short comings? How come every charachter we look up to has to be something we could never aspire to be because they're always so confident and perfect?
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Also, I have figured out why I don't like that line in "Love and Loss" about Sally loving her people more than Sonic. It is not the line itself, it is the way some fans use the line to try to show that Sonic and Sally shouldn't and will not get back together, where I came from that story hopefull that Sonic and Sally will eventally reconcile(in spite of everything).
I thought we weren't allowed to discuss relationships
It would be ridiculous to ignore the relationships. The ban is on discussions ABOUT romantic relationships.
DC simply mentioned hoope that Sonic and Sally will reconcile. Reconcilliation is not always romantic in nature.
Trust the mods. If something's against the rules, one of them will take action.
