Watch AoStH lol

In terms of a better portrayal of Tails? Yes, I'd happily say that AoStH did a better job than SatAM. They might've made him very young, but they let him be what he was meant to be: the techie and the friggin' sidekick!

He wasn't lucky if he was even got one appearance per episode, let alone a spoken line - he was young and he might as well've carried around his own pre-written ransom note at tines, but he was always there and also seen portrayed as a mechanical genius and had an episode number in double figures where he actually pulled Sonic's spiny rear out of the proverbial fire in one way or another.

I'm as respecting of a good storyline as anyone, but my opinion on Princess Mary-Sue and her clique is well known and boiled down here (there was a 1,000 word limit - the original version had about 700 more words and more detail) - I got rather bored of being told how great she was by all and sundry (including her) when I should've been able to figure that out myself from watching the narrative.

I'm not one of those fans who describe any original character as a Mary-Sue, but I do define Mary-Sues as those characters that take attention away from the canon characters, and to a lesser extent those that the entire cast have to keep foregrounding as unfathomably perfect and that all have to be exceptionally "special" - magic powers (or some equally substitute bit of tech *coughNicolecough*), hideously coincidental contacts and/or rich relatives that let them get into everything...

The canon consisted of Tails and Robotnik at that point, and the show had to have a villain so Robotnik got off lightly.

But the only other good guy got their role completely obliterated, the sidekick position given to Sally, the techie position given to Rotor and their screen time completely pressed out by DiC's original characters.

Rather than having it legitimised by being on TV, if we were reading it on FanFiction.net and equivalent time and prominence was given to characters with identical traits named (for example) Princess Twinkletoes the hedgehog and her cowardly butler, a half-robot fox that could shoot lasers and suchlike whilst Tails sat around in the background and even Sonic didn't seem to be the main character in his own narrative, how many of us - even at the time SatAM was created - would honestly've described that as a good fic?

Had Tails gotten a bit more parity, I'd have said that a cast of hero, sidekick and villain could stand up to a bit of fleshing out - but I find it a bit hard to justify it when cast members who were already there to fill certain roles were supplanted and downright ignored.

~~but she's canon in this universe of Sonic so doesn't that make your complaints sort of null? Many people at least consider her to be canon. Not like, say, Chris Thorndyke. Because Sonic X was just an animated adaption of the games and in the games Chris did not exsist.

Sonic has too many universes? Maybe. But wouldn't Sonic X and Sonic X archie kinda be stuck together? With the comic being an extension of the show?

Anyway I apologize. I still can't see what makes Sally a "mary-sue" in the satAM show. The Archie possibly but I haven't read it in years. Samanfur, you seem to not like her just because she exists. Which is the unfair immediate response a lot of original characters get. Had season 3 never been canceled I'm sure Tails' would have been given a more promiment role. When was it stated that satAM was supposed to be exactly like the games? And I would have appreciated the fact that they were trying to grow Tails up instead of making him just as skilled as the others from the get-go. Their plans just got cut off at the head before it came to fruition.

Again, feel free to take a look at that IMDB comment, where I could go into more detail on my thoughts on Sally's personality than I could multi-tasking first thing in the morning at work. It's not the fact that she exists (although, as I said, I don't see why she needs all of the time devoted to her that she gets) it's her overall character and skillset, and the fact that as a result, I just don't see why (at least in SatAM - she's had more room for development in Archie, and at least been acknowledged within the storyline as having attitude problems there) she's supposed to be this wonderful character with so much adulation from both other characters and fans.

I'd say the same thing about Chris. If that means I don't like the basic make-up of the universe, then so be it - I never denied that.

I have an issue with world-building that prioritises original characters over canon - and especially when the original characters're written as Sally was, which I again just didn't find attractive anyway.

But thats YOUR argument. I thought that imdb one was written by someone else. That link is just more of what I already know from your point of view. I want to hear really long rants about why Sally sucks from different people.

Fair enough, DB. I wasn't trying to come across as offensive at all.

Although bear in mind that I'm just talking about SatAM - there's been so much time and development that I think slightly differently about Archie.

a lot of people i know say that archie tried too hard to make Sally not a sue to the point that they messed her up.

And seeing that Sally is a princess isn't it obvious that she'd have fans? Not to mention that all the core freedom fighters were friends since childhood. Why wouldn't they like Sally? Friends tend to like each other. Thats the trend. Not to mention she being a princess, Sally is basically a hope figure for all rebels. Why do you hate her for being competent? You wanted Princess Peach? Besides Archie, Sonic's never gotten character development. In Sonic X,AoStH, Sonic the movie, satAM and Sonic Underground he's the same guy coming out as he was going in. Because back in the day his personality was, and kinda still is, flat as a steamrolled pancake. Thats what Sega wanted. Remember when Sonic wasn't supposed to cry ever? I'm pretty sure writers had a tough time making Sonic interesting when the only personality he could ever convey was 'surfer dude' Even Michelangelo from TMNT was allowed more emotions than that.

To be honest though I have to admit AoStH's sonic was ok because he was o so silly. It was like He got a visit from Bugs Bunny or something.

Wow D. B., Sam, everyone else, this is sum pretty heated stuff! It's like watching politicians argue over who's right or wrong, without all that boring political stuff! Honestly all I really want is Sonic! I don't care what universe, who is protrayed like what, personalities, I just want my sonic!

DB, you said that DiC was probably trying to show Tails growing up. If that were the case, why didn't they bother showing the other Freedom Fighters growing up.

The series came out in 1993. Sonic 2 came out in 1992, so Tails was already an established canon character at that point. Why, then, did they feel the need to develop Tails, when they just jumped in with Sally, Rotor, Antoine, and Bunnie? Did they just not realize that Tails had already been proven to be on par with Sonic?

Arguments are such useless things (But i guess thats why there so fun)

All in all i agree in with eggpire i want my sonci(& robotnik & tails & sally & Knuckles & Chaotix, Nack, Snivly etc.)

I could care less how there portrayed as long as they don't make sonic a total git like he was in Fleetways STC, but besdies that im fine with Whatever X decides to do.

(As long as its not like Underground, lord knows i'd hate to see sonic & the FF sing every episode, but i digreses.)

DB, you said that DiC was probably trying to show Tails growing up. If that were the case, why didn't they bother showing the other Freedom Fighters growing up.

The series came out in 1993. Sonic 2 came out in 1992, so Tails was already an established canon character at that point. Why, then, did they feel the need to develop Tails, when they just jumped in with Sally, Rotor, Antoine, and Bunnie? Did they just not realize that Tails had already been proven to be on par with Sonic?

I don't know. I just liked the idea. Maybe they took too long but I'm sure if season 3 aired he would have had a bigger role.

If this show gets greenlighted I bet two characters who won't make it will be Rotor and Dulcy.

Hmm, Dulcy getting cut? Yea mabye, I can see it happening.
BUT ROTOR?! Wow, things would be different then. Dunno. I just can't see it. I mean, he was a freedom fighter...

Sega will be like :"He's not popular enough". And Executive meddling + fan +@%@@+$* would make sure that Tails' got role of tech head.

<strong class="quote-title" B Vulpix wrote:

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Sega will be like :"He's not popular enough". And Executive meddling + fan +@%@@+$* would make sure that Tails' got role of tech head.

Have an evil Rotor instead?

a lot of people i know say that archie tried too hard to make Sally not a sue to the point that they messed her up.

I disagree and I'd call it character development and watching the character grow once the narrative got beyond the context it started out in (the lone rebels). I've liked seeing Sally knocked down a peg or two, acknowledged for having serious attitude problems and even admitting it herself - I've got more issue with the way that Ian seems to be turning the clock back to her SatAM personality in that respect.

And seeing that Sally is a princess isn't it obvious that she'd have fans?

This brings me back to world-building again, since it feels like a chicken and agg scenario. I just don't get why the series needed to be built around an original character princess (and to a lesser extent, her entourage) in the way it was.

Not to mention that all the core freedom fighters were friends since childhood. Why wouldn't they like Sally? Friends tend to like each other. Thats the trend.

Not arguing that. Just wondering why they found her likeable. She was arrogant, she was insulting, she was immature, she was rash... And all her friends ever seemed to do was ignore it or pat the poor dear on the head for being stressed. Yes, they were all kids together so maybe that was it - but the rest of the core FFs didn't seem to have that problem, on the whole.

I found Bunnie an example of a more attractive personality for me, so it's not as though the writers couldn't write them. Sally just seemed to get lots of adulation purely for her status and for being physically attractive. To paraphrase Jim Henson's Dinosaurs, it's "I'm the Princess - gotta love me!", no matter how big a brat she is.

Not to mention she being a princess, Sally is basically a hope figure for all rebels.

I know. I guess I'm just used to that being... y'know... Sonic's job - him being the eponymous hero an' all. Again, I just have a hard time figuring out why she was a necessary addition to the cast.

Why do you hate her for being competent? You wanted Princess Peach?

For me, there's a difference between competent and feeling like the writers're taking the mickey a bit. Characters with one or two or even a few standout traits're one thing, but:

She's a princess, which gives her automatic right to shove her nose in everything and pull rank.
She drives the central plot hook.
She's apparently so beautiful by furry standards that guys fall in love at first sight and flit after her like bees around a honey pot, despite the fact that she openly plays them against each other and insults them to their faces.
She's apparently super-smart enough to've invented a device for communicating with wild animals that nobody's ever invented before, despite the fact she's been hiding in a forest without so much tech as a water wheel since I was five years old.
She hates being told she's wrong and basically sulks or does her own thing if she doesn't get her own way (she takes Tails' place in the should-carry-own-ransom-note stakes on occasion, when she's not consistently saving Sonic), yet everyone mystifyingly makes excuses for her, despite the fact that her and Sonic're the only characters who make a habit of this.
She just happens to be a kick-tail martial artist.
She just happens to be the only one to have a handy-dandy piece of tech that'll tell her the answer to virtually anything on the planet she doesn't know and enable her to do a load of other stuff that she wouldn't be able to do otherwise.

Basically, the character is written as physically and mentally all that and a bag of chips, and held in adulation despite not really being all that nice. I have a problem with any character where despite blatant evidence to the contrary, the only flaws that their companions seem to admit they have are the likes of "Can't play the nose flute", "Only got 99% rather than full marks in an exam once" or even fudges like "Cares too much" or "Tries too hard", that anyone else might see as a compliment.

Besides Archie, Sonic's never gotten character development. In Sonic X,AoStH, Sonic the movie, satAM and Sonic Underground he's the same guy coming out as he was going in.

You haven't read any Fleetway, have you?

Because back in the day his personality was, and kinda still is, flat as a steamrolled pancake. Thats what Sega wanted. Remember when Sonic wasn't supposed to cry ever? I'm pretty sure writers had a tough time making Sonic interesting when the only personality he could ever convey was 'surfer dude' Even Michelangelo from TMNT was allowed more emotions than that.

I'm not sure how this is relevant, but... Sonic did show emotion in both AoStH and SatAM (and I reckon that he developed in Sonic X, as well - but that'd be off-topic in here). He cried, he got scared, he did a whole load of stuff. I just don't see why he needed a picture perfect little princess as his sidekick to do it besides.

It is interesting, for a "perfect" character some people find a lot of things wrong with Sally and while complaining she is "perfect" make her out to be like she is some kind of terrible creature. I guess I see flaws differently then some people, I see flaws in characters as any bad trait, and it doesn't have to affect the character's relationship with others. She's whinny, she criticizes Sonic too much, she is a flirt(I am glad Archie has gotten her away from that), are just some of the compliants I have heard about Sally over the years. Sally does have some good points, she can be kind and brave. It never bothered me that Sally's friends weren't hard on her, in fact I am glad her friends were/are so kind and understanding of her. I assume her friends are so forgiving, not only because they are childhood friends but also maybe because they all feel the pressure too(remember the fate of their world is in their hands), and understand their own weakness/faults(most of them anyway). Its not that they don't see her faults, they love Sally in spite of her faults, the same with her fans. Also, I think it is strange, that some fans seem to want the freedom fighters to get to the point of even hating Sally; like they want(ed) the freedom fighters to really bash her, tell her how awful she is, and kick her when she is down. I don't see anything wrong with her friends liking Sally, and her being pretty and talented. I think there is some jealousy, or upsetness, with some fans that Tails didn't get enough attention and Sally did in Sat a.m., which while understandable, I think unfair to take it out on Sally especially since Tails was just starting to get more development and attention when the series ended. I agree, that some fans, like Sam just don't seem like the fact that Sally exsist(repeating what some else has said).

The problem I had with the way Archie developed her character was that it ruinned her relationships with her friends. If a character does change, I like to see it for the better. In Sally's case I thought it made her worse; tearing her apart from her friends and making her weak. I wouldn't mind, and even like, to see Sally's character developed better, seeing her grow up, changing for the better so as to not hurt her friendships but make them stronger. Hopefully, Ian will eventually get to it, and Matt(animator X)too if he is allowed.

C'mon, DC - I already said that it's not a simple matter of her existing. Give her less prominence and dial her abilities back a little, and I'd have no issue - again, I've liked a lot of what's been done with her in Archie until quite recently.

It's not that I wanted to see Sally bashed - just a bit more sense of perspective. You don't have to kick someone when they're down as the only way to tell them that they're out of order at times. There's a difference between being kind and understanding and just letting someone get away with anything they want, and caring in the respect of telling someone if you think they're screwing up or going to get into trouble.

But what I'm basically saying is that it wouldn't even have needed that if she hadn't seen written in that way to start with.

Again, I'm at work at the moment, so I can't expand on things as much as I'd like to. But we seem to be blurring two issues here: the fact that Sally held the role she did in the narrative and her actual personality. I'd see them as two separate things - but to return to the first one, I agree with Kayla that the only character who already had canon development (Tails) being the one who got basically no role in the series until the back end of the second season (whilst the original characters sprang into life fully formed) just didn't seem to make any sense, whether I like Tails as a character or not.

You know arguments grow rather tedious after awhile (But it guess im not one to talk.) I really could care less how Sally is portrayed. What Really matters though is weather will see these guys back in action or not.

C,mon you know They PWN every other side kick ol eggys had.

I was one step off saying the same thing myself, since I wouldn't try or expect to change anyone's mind like this - just tell people what I think, which I've done. I didn't mean to derail the thread like this.

Sega will be like :"He's not popular enough". And Executive meddling + fan +@%@@+$* would make sure that Tails' got role of tech head.

Have an evil Rotor instead?

Yes Rotor will kill Robotnick/Eggman in the middle of season 3 and become the new bad guy.

Hm...Robotnik or Eggman. Which will he be called?

What Really matters though is weather will see these guys back in action or not.

We probably wouldn't in a pure SatAm reboot.

Hence why we need an AoStH reboot instead. Oh yes.

Yeah I like scratch and grounder. coconuts...mmmm not so much. But i doooooubt they'd return. But they're much cooler than Sleet and Dingo.

"Hence why we need an AoStH reboot instead. Oh yes."

I agree that would be awsome, but i could see the 6-s in a new satam show I mean Archie incorpoerated them into the comic pretty Well & i'm glad that theve been brought back recently (Even if they work for mammoth mougel now.) I think It would be nice for Robotnik to have some compitent yet funny sidekicks again. Ok mabye they were'nt that competent but they were hillarious!

"The servers are the seven chaos, chaos is power enriched by the heart."
-Ancient Echindna text.

They could be worked in as cameos definately.

Ok so....a new satAM. What does this pitch have going FOR it. Whats going AGAINST it?

For:
1. 2 new games are coming out.

2. Young children still like sonic enough that one could say he's still popular enough for a new tv show.

3. If the story writing can be aimed at younger audiences but in an intelligent way (like Airbender) You can probably even get people who don't like Sonic (but probably like furries) to watch it.

4. As long as they stay the hell away from 4kids everything should be fine.

What other positives could be added into why this show should be made?

Well, they tried to stop Robotnik from (basically) polluting their environment as well as surviving.
Take that concept into today's society and BAM! Instant Classic and start rolling in the money. 😛
(After all, this "saving this environment" stuff is beginning to look like a buisness to me...)

okay, aside from that, no ideas. Sorry DB.

Well, they tried to stop Robotnik from (basically) polluting their environment as well as surviving.
Take that concept into today's society and BAM! Instant Classic and start rolling in the money. 😛
(After all, this "saving this environment" stuff is beginning to look like a buisness to me...)

okay, aside from that, no ideas. Sorry DB.

Thats actually a good idea. It'll be like 'stop the smoggies' 'were the sun-tots' type deal.....only with furries! And probably not totally focused on enviromentalism. I think the only thing going against the pitch is Sonic just not being popular enough. Now if someone was pitching a new Mario show....

Oh god... I am now imagining Sonic and the Freedom Fighters as Captain Planet characters. Bring the seven Chaos Emeralds together with 50 Power Rings and form Captain-- I mean SUPER SONIC! **FLEES**

CAPTIN PLANET RARR! I don't care what people say that show was good, for 2 seasons anyway. But hasn,t the sonic series akways been a parody to nature fighting technology & urbanization anyways