Well, what was Locke supposed to do after Knuckles turned his back on his own people, when Eggman wasn't even a valid threat at the time? Let his home and people be annihilated?
I personally think that Knuckles has been hanging around Sonic too long and picked up his "bastard syndrome". I hope that when he comes back to himself, Julie-Su gives him one pit of a lecture and possibly a slap like Sally gave Sonic.
How in the world can you say Knuckles turned his back on his people and say that Eggman wasn't a valid threat? May I remind you that Eggman, and unbeknownst to us at the time, Finitevus, was the cause of the dingo rise!! Knux plainly stated that he thought that Eggman was the main threat, and rightfully so, and needed to help the FFs defeat him. Knux realized that Robotnik was the root of all of Mobius' problems and if you destroy the root you destroy the weed.
So what did Eggman have with the Dark Legion schism?
Are we going to blame Eggman for every sin of the world?
All seriousness aside, the echidnas have proven to be a prideful group so things like the DL go hand in hand.
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How in the world can you say Knuckles turned his back on his people and say that Eggman wasn't a valid threat?
Its seems pretty clear-cut to me: Knuckles' people were getting killed; he had the power to stop it, and he did nothing. Hence, he turned his back on them. As for Eggman not being a valid threat, I think what Sailor Unicron meant is that Knothole could have done without Knux's assistance at the time. Besides which, just how much he was actually contributing to the war effort is a lot more debatable than you might think, about which, see below.
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Knux plainly stated that he thought that Eggman was the main threat, and rightfully so, and needed to help the FFs defeat him. Knux realized that Robotnik was the root of all of Mobius' problems and if you destroy the root you destroy the weed.
Yeah, that's Knuckles' "big picture" rationale but ... just how was he planning to do that? What great and noble mission did he choose for himself, in lieu of his Guardian duties? I seem to remember him working security for a pop-star at one point, and considering this of such vital importance to the war effort that even rumors of the theft of the Master Emerald weren't enough to tear him away.
Nevermind the devastation this would cause to the island and his people ... nevermind about finding out if, oh, I don't know, his own family was still alive and well (something that he apparently couldn't be bothered to do at any point during his months in Knothole). Instead, he sends his friends to check it out. Gee Knux, how good of you to delegate.
I mean seriously, WTF? The Knuckles I knew and loved would never be so blas about a threat to his island and his people. And even this episode pales in comparison to the fact that Knuckles let his people die when he could have saved them, because he was too busy, as I believe Finitevus rightly said, "playing errand boy to the King of Acorn." Sure, he could have prevented genocide, but he had better things to do. Give me a break.
It may be loss of memory on my part, but I don't ever recall Knuckles being incredibly dedicated to the echidnas.
Angel Island, yea.
His father, definately, and he saved him.
But I can't really think of a moment where he cared the entire civilization, since he spent his entire life living in a cave.
But surely he'd care about his mother and his baby brother, right? If not for the other echidnas, shouldn't he at least try to help for their sakes? Does Knuckles even care about them anymore?
Knuckles does care for his people, and his family, it's just that previously he's had bigger concerns. Back before his brief death, the Echidnas had the other Guardians and the EST to look after 'em; when he finally got back to Angel Island, Locke and the Dark Legion were on the job and he was dedicated to fighting Robotnik. He didn't worry about the Echidnas too much when Locke told him about their troubles because Locke didn't go into too many details, and Knux was too busy arguing with him. Once he learned the truth of matters, his true feelings for his people came out and he became determined to help them-thus leading to his inadvertent brainwashing.
But did Knothole actually need him at the time he left after RtAI? As far as I recall, his roll of "defending against the bigger threat" was nothing more than an overglorified errand boy.
Well, that's the way it usually is: Knuckles isn't the MAIN character, so he doesn't get to do anything important. Besides that, he started working with the Freedom Fighters while Max was still in power, and that guy doesn't know ANYTHING about using the talents of younger people.
All the more reason for him to go back to Angel Island.
I'll be mad if all this falls on Locke's shoulders, cause Knuckles is just as guilty as him, if not more.
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I don't ever recall Knuckles being incredibly dedicated to the echidnas.
That may be so, though Knuckles' reaction to news of the 90% supposedly indicates otherwise. Either way, this in no way lessens his obligation to them. With great power, comes great responsibility. Knuckles himself admitted as much. And I believe he has used (or rather, not used) his power irresponsibly in this case, by squandering his time and talents in menial service to the ineffectual Acorn Kingdom. It might not bother me so much if so many people hadn't ended up paying the ultimate price for his cowardice, but they did, and it does.
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Knuckles does care for his people, and his family, it's just that previously he's had bigger concerns.
Oh? Bigger concerns than the very survival of the people he'd sworn to protect? Than the very survival of his own family? And just how did he go about addressing these so-called "bigger concerns?" I believe we've already been over this.
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when he finally got back to Angel Island, Locke and the Dark Legion were on the job and he was dedicated to fighting Robotnik.
[Copied and pasted from Ian's forum, because I don't feel like paraphrasing]: Generally speaking, concentration camps = genocide. Even if Knuckles were unacquainted with this particular formula, he should have seen enough during the raids he participated in during RtAI to put two and two together. He should have known that his people were being systematically murdered, and that as long as there were still concentration camps and dingoes on the island, his people would keep being systematically murdered.
Why would he have reason to believe that would stop when he left? What had really and truly changed since Knuckles arrived back on the island? A few more people, including his father, were freed from the concentration camps, and some dingoes got their butts kicked. Whoop. De. Doo. Yeah, that ought to be enough to stop genocide in its tracks.
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He didn't worry about the Echidnas too much when Locke told him about their troubles because Locke didn't go into too many details, and Knux was too busy arguing with him.
The gist of Locke's message was this: "The Dark Legion, otherwise known as the only resistance on A.I. against the dingoes (and still a rather ineffective one at that, given how many echidnas we saw in the concentration camps in RtAI), is crumbling into civil war, thus leaving your people entirely vulnerable to attack from Kage's forces, who've stepped up their offensive. Thus, the genocide that you witnessed in your raids on the concentration camps will only get even worse than it is now and has been since you left. Under such circumstances, I cannot even guarantee the safety of your own mother and her family."
This pretty effectively destroys for me the idea that Knuckles could possibly not have known that his people were being decimated. It is the only logical consequence of the Dark Legion split and the dingo aggression: that what was already happening to the echidnas, what Knuckles had seen with his own eyes in RtAI, would only continue and in all likelihood get even worse.
And saying that he was too busy arguing with his father to look out for his own people's welfare hardly excuses him. Even if you want to say he was distracted by Locke's "threat" near the end of their conversation, that doesn't explain why it still took him ages to haul his butt to Angel Island and fulfill his duty to his people, far too late to do any real good whatsoever.
Even after he'd had time to calm down and consider his father's words, he still choose to keep cooling his heels in Knothole, while his people were suffering and dying. Good luck trying to make that look noble under the light of scrutiny, E3. You're going to need it.
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Once he learned the truth of matters, his true feelings for his people came out and he became determined to help them-thus leading to his inadvertent brainwashing.
Ah yes, Knuckles' undying devotion to his people. Seeing as this is the first "proof" he's given of it for quite some time, you'll have to forgive me for being more than a little skeptical of said devotion.
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But did Knothole actually need him at the time he left after RtAI? As far as I recall, his roll of "defending against the bigger threat" was nothing more than an overglorified errand boy.
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Knuckles isn't the MAIN character, so he doesn't get to do anything important.
Yes, but I happen to think Ian was under a certain obligation to prove to the readers that Knuckles made the right decision, by showing that he was making more of a difference in Knothole than he ever could have on Angel Island ... and Ian didn't. If he's going to make Knuckles abandon his people and his family, Knuckles had better have a d good reason for it, and Knuckles' reasons seem more like shallow excuses than anything, when considered in the light of his petty contribution to the war effort.
Knuckles could have made a difference on Angel Island, and he chose not to, for no good reason. He can pour forth all the eloquent discourse on big-picture thinking that he wants, it won't be enough to wash the blood from his hands, as far as I'm concerned.
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Besides that, he started working with the Freedom Fighters while Max was still in power, and that guy doesn't know ANYTHING about using the talents of younger people.
Like that's some kind of excuse? Who chose to submit himself to Max's command? Gee, I think that would be Knuckles. Who remained in Max's service while his people were dying horrific deaths, even when it had become abundantly clear that Max didn't know what the H he was doing? Knuckles, again.
It's not like Knuckles was under any obligation to serve King Acorn either. For all intents and purposes, Knuckles is a sovereign in his own right, if of a very different stripe from the likes of Sally and Elias.
Such submission also seems very much at odds to me with the "independent-minded" Knuckles I think Ian's been trying to sell us, by having Knux deny his Guardian heritage. This is part of the reason why Knuckles' supposedly courageous choice to fight "on the larger front" comes off more like cowardice to me.
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I'll be mad if all this falls on Locke's shoulders, cause Knuckles is just as guilty as him, if not more.
Same here, though I don't really see how Locke is guilty in any of this: Yes, he left Angel Island, but he left it in the hands of someone who had proven they were just as capable as he was to protect it, and its people. That's more than Knuckles can say, whose capabilities (thanks to Locke) far exceed Locke's own.
Remember, Locke had no reason (besides Finitevus' association with the DL, who had already begun to redeem themselves by serving as the resistance on Angel Island) to doubt Finitevus' good intentions. This was the guy who'd helped him retain the Master Emerald during the Gathering. This was the guy who'd just saved what little remained of Locke's people from destruction at dingo hands. This was, to all appearances, a good guy. Besides which, he was vouched for by Dimitri, who had ostensibly become a force for good himself, in his attempts to re-integrate the Dark Legion into echidna society.
Of course, Locke would have known Finitevus was a villain if Knuckles had only passed on the intelligence of Finny's plans that he'd received from Rouge. But I guess Knuckles was too busy playing video games at Freedom HQ or hanging out at Uncle Chuck's Diner that day, and it slipped his mind. Kind of ironic when you consider now that Knuckles' life is hanging in the balance as a direct result of that omission. I wish I could say he didn't deserve it.
I think we have to keep in mind that the whole Knuckles story since "Home" has been juggled by three different writers. Karl put Knux in Knothole to feature him more in the comic since his own backups were gone; and between him and Ken I think we were meant to get the impression that the Echidna/Dingo war was nowhere near as serious as Ian has made it to be. In effect Ian's kind of retconned it a bit - if you look at #150/#151, Ken was writing as if Echidna society had returned to normal and the dingoes had been beaten back enough for the situation to no longer be considered warfare. In that situation I think it was perfectly fine for Knux to decide to stay in Knothole, from the Ken/Karl perspective, the Echidnas had effectively "won" the "war", and Robotnik was definitely the more pressing issue.
However when Ian took over he kinda retconned that a bit; as we can see Echidnaopolis changed from the massive city it was to a small village without any reason (I'm not criticising Ian for this, just commenting). He clearly had a much direr perspective of the events than K&K and retconned it slightly, which is something we didn't get to see the full picture of until #181.
Not saying this excuses the characters of Knuckles or Locke or removes their guilt, however much it may be - but just that some of the story and inconsistencies have got to because of the creative change.
On the bright side, alot of echidna baggage got taken out.
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if you look at #150/#151, Ken was writing as if Echidna society had returned to normal and the dingoes had been beaten back enough for the situation to no longer be considered warfare. In that situation I think it was perfectly fine for Knux to decide to stay in Knothole, from the Ken/Karl perspective, the Echidnas had effectively "won" the "war", and Robotnik was definitely the more pressing issue.
But, by the same token, Locke seems to indicate at the end of RtAI that Knuckles and company haven't returned things to normal, when he says, "So now that your powers have returned, and you have the ability to fight, you'd rather turn your back on your home than reclaim it from evil?!" (dialogue slightly cleaned up by me from its original grammatically awkward state).
Sorry if can't comment more extensively on S150-1 (I'm sure you're very disappointed
), but I missed those issues. Actually, I think I might have boycotted them because I was so disgusted about the whole Locke-Rouge thing. I mean seriously, he has better taste than that, not to mention that such gullibility is totally OOC for him. But Locke's been getting a lot that treatment lately too, so I guess I should be accustomed to it by now.
Though you do raise an interesting question in your assertions: To what extent can/do circumstances outside the narrative serve to justify or explain a character's actions? Those Knotholers who also frequent Ian's forum might remember that I devoted an entire thread to this question, though I won't restate the example I used there in this thread; it's rather involved. Still, I do kind of wonder where others weigh in on this question. I know it's one that has persistently plagued me, anyway.
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On the bright side, alot of echidna baggage got taken out.
"Baggage" that quite a lot of fans (myself included) dearly loved! All the culture, the history, the political intrigue, the vitality of the city and its people, all, ALL are gone. Forever. Everything that made me fall in love with the Knuckles comic (sans Locke, and don't even get me started on that) is gone, because Knuckles was too busy playing hero in a war that didn't need him.
I was patient enough with Ian's purge when it limited itself to fringe characters that nobody cared about ... but this? The Echidnaopolitans and their city were the cornerstones of an entire continuity! How could Ian so casually eliminate the work of years, the product of such painstaking development? It disgusts and saddens me, beyond even my power to express.
There is no reason the echidnas had to go; if Ian was concerned the complexity of their society would baffle new readers, why not just not show them, or at least only do so on special occasions?* Though I would hardly consider such a scenario ideal, I would of course prefer it to the alternative of near-total annihilation. I guess there's no middle ground when you're on a mission, huh?
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* And give new readers a little credit for God's sake; if they're interested enough to pick up the comic, they'd probably be willing to endure occasional bouts of exposition/backstory. God knows Ian's stories are somewhat exposition-heavy as it is, would a little more hurt? This also ignores the presence of online resources, which many new readers could use to get up to speed on Knuckles' backstory.
EDIT: An amusing, and somewhat disturbing, thought just occured to me. Can anyone else kind of see a weird parallel between Knucklejak and Ian? Both of them are setting out to "make things right" ... and causing a lot of destruction in the process. Huh. I don't know what to make of it.
I have to wonder whether Ken Penders has been keeping up with the happenings of the comic. I'd love to hear how he feels about ten years of story he'd built by himself being effectively eliminated from the comic in a matter of four issues.
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"Baggage" that quite a lot of fans (myself included) dearly loved! All the culture, the history, the political intrigue, the vitality of the city and its people, all, ALL are gone. Forever. Everything that made me fall in love with the Knuckles comic (sans Locke, and don't even get me started on that) is gone, because Knuckles was too busy playing hero in a war that didn't need him.
I was patient enough with Ian's purge when it limited itself to fringe characters that nobody cared about ... but this? The Echidnaopolitans and their city were the cornerstones of an entire continuity! How could Ian so casually eliminate the work of years, the product of such painstaking development? It disgusts and saddens me, beyond even my power to express.
But it's not "ALL" gone. It's not work that's completely "eliminated", either. It's changed. Destruction can be followed by rebuilding. In some cases, some things have even been restored; Remington is again a protector of his people, and the echidna population has returned to its homeland as Gala-Na had wished.
Frankly, "super-advanced civilization that's existed forever and despite major quarrels, schisms and arrogance has never suffered any major irreversible setback" is kinda boring. This is an ongoing story. A lack of any kind of dramatic, wide-reaching change would just be stagnant. Otherwise threats have no meaning, bad actions have no real consequences.
Or would you rather that the heroes are never faulted and that everything just perpetuates happily regardless of what happens?
Oh, and I think "baggage" mostly applies to there having been over sixty named echidna characters in the series, with very few of them given a lot of deep focus.
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But it's not "ALL" gone. It's not work that's completely "eliminated", either. It's changed. Destruction can be followed by rebuilding.
You really want to quibble over semantics, Lea? Alright then, I'll indulge you. Let's take an inventory, shall we? It's been a while since I last checked: Who knows, maybe I missed something?
What we DON'T have anymore:
1. Echidnaopolis AND Albion: both reduced to rubble and unlikely to be rebuilt anytime soon (at least, as the sprawling metropolises we knew and loved) because really, who's going live there, given the echidnas' severely depleted numbers? Which leads us to:
2. The vast majority of echidnas everywhere: Besides the fact that we now have far fewer characters to work with (and thus have lost a lot of potential for future storylines), this includes the loss of other intangibles, which you seem to think are so easily replaceable, such as:
a) government infrastructure: How are they supposed to keep that fascinating, if corrupt, political machine running now that the cogs have gone missing? Are we ever going to see a storyline like the Dark Alliance arc again? Where am I supposed to go now for my political intrigue? The Acorn Council? After the far-too-tidy resolution of the Revolution arc, I hope you'll forgive me for being somewhat less than enthusiastic about that prospect.
b) culture: Included under this heading would be things like the echidna state religion (worship of the goddess Aurora) and religious hierarchy, which has apparently given way to Avatarism, last time I checked, and traditions like the "unveiling" of echidna females upon their sixteenth birthday.
And if you think religious and cultural traditions can survive genocide so easily, you might want to think again: Surveys of Holocaust survivors found that though many of them made a conscious effort to maintain the traditions of their ancestors, these traditions were nevertheless dying out left and right, because there just simply weren't enough people left who knew their ins and outs.
c) history: Do you think anyone thought grab to their history textbook whilst their city was being razed to the ground, or when Enerjak zapped them to Albion? Without a recorded history, the echidnas are going to have to resort to their much more fallible memories to preserve the events of their past, and even if they write down what they can remember right away (unlikely, since their focus now is just on surviving in a wasteland) there will still be significant distortions. They'll likely end up having to transmit that knowledge through oral tradition instead, which will only introduce more distortion. (Historical landmarks, like the statue of Hawking shown in K4, destroyed along with Echidnaopolis might also be lumped under this heading.)
d) technology: This has always been one of the defining qualities of the echidna people, and their advanced technology made them an interesting counterpoint to the hitherto more rustic Acorn Kingdom. It seems these peoples' situations have been almost exactly reversed in this regard actually, though I have to wonder what's going to happen to all that echidna technological knowledge now.
In the Dark Ages of Western Civilization for example, much of Greek and Roman classical knowledge (philosophical and political treatises, science and mathematics, etc.) would have been lost had Islamic scholars not preserved it (and in many cases added to it). But who's going to do that for the echidnas? The only glimmer of hope I can find in this scenario might be the continued existence of the Grand Conservatory, which could preserve at least some (though probably not all) of that knowledge, and make it available for future generations to reclaim....
If the dingoes haven't discovered and trashed the GC by now, that is. If they could do it to Haven, they could do it to the Grand Conservatory. Discussion of technological considerations also segues to:
3. The Dark Legion: Yes, they haven't been completely wiped out, and certainly appear to have fared better than the mere handful of Echidnaopolitans that survived the dingo genocide ... but their cybernetics are gone. Much like the Echidnaopolitans, the DL were in many ways defined by their attachment to advanced technology ... the outward manifestations of which were their cybernetic parts.
To what extent can they still be considered the Dark Legion? What about those who thanked Knucklejak for his so-called benevolent meddling and got teleported to Albion? Are they still legionnaires? And what kind of numbers are we talking about here? Just going off the panel portraying the DL's reaction to their new, natural states, it looks like about two out of seven (not counting Lien-Da) reacted with the glee, while the rest were either angry or afraid. But does this smattering accurately reflect the attitudes of the entire Legion? Just how much have their ranks been depleted by Knucklejak?
4. The Lost Tribe: wiped out along with most of the other Albionites, and just a year or two after they'd reached Journey's End too. Poor guys, they might have been better off if they'd just kept wandering.
5. Various peoples of Angel Island: (such as Espio's fellow chameleons, for instance) This is a bit of a question mark, seeing as their fate in the midst of the echidna genocide has never been explicitly stated. However, the bloodthirsty nature of the dingo regime, coupled with Knucklejak's failure to address their fate during his stint of "setting things right" on the island, leads me to believe that they're simply not there, having either evacuated Angel Island or ... not.
6. The Brotherhood: yes, I know this was before Ian's time and he might well bring them back (or not), so I don't blame him for it ... I just thought I should include them for completeness' sake.
7. Charmy's people: like the Brotherhood, included for the sake of completeness, though I've never been entirely sure if they were situated on Angel Island or not. But if they weren't, why would Knuckles blame Locke for not looking for them in "Call of Duty"?
What we DO have (for the time being):
1. Knuckles, kind of. Sort of. Not really: right now, quite literally is not Knuckles but Enerjak, his mind having been warped by Finitevus' hex, which may or may not be irreversible (depending on whether you believe Locke and/or if Locke has his information straight). Even before this, he didn't feel like Knuckles (or like much of a hero at all) to me, for reasons I've already gone into in great detail.
2. Locke, kind of. Sort of. Not really: much like Knuckles, almost doesn't feel like Locke to me anymore, due to the nature of his recent portrayal. But again, I've already stated my issues with this, so let's move on.
3. Julie-Su and the Chaotix
4. Bubble-Head Dimitri: reduced to a pitiable state and forced to go begging from one make-shift ally to the next ... though apparently Ian has plans to address this in the course of the Enerjak Returns arc, so I'll say no more on this subject.
5. Remington: magically restored to his former state to the delighted squeals of fan-girls ... and the groans of people (like myself) who would have liked to see the plot point of his memory loss and elevation to the top spot of an organization he previously fought against dealt with in some meaningful way.
6. Lara-Le, Wynmacher, and little Kneecaps: cause it would just be heartless to kill off the portion of Knuckles' family who aren't jerks, or at least perceived as such.
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So we've kept a few characters from the run of the Knuckles series (basically, Julie-Su, Remington, and Lara-Le and family, with the rest pre-dating the series) ... and effectively gotten rid just about the entire rest of the continuity. Gee, what an accomplishment. It just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know that years worth of development can be flushed down the tube at a moment's notice. Not.
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In some cases, some things have even been restored ... the echidna population has returned to its homeland as Gala-Na had wished.
Is that necessarily a good thing though? I'm still not entirely sure why Knucklejak felt the need to send his people to Albion and make his own home, Angel Island, into a sort of dumping ground for all those he considers undesirable.
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Frankly, "super-advanced civilization that's existed forever and despite major quarrels, schisms and arrogance has never suffered any major irreversible setback" is kinda boring. This is an ongoing story. A lack of any kind of dramatic, wide-reaching change would just be stagnant. Otherwise threats have no meaning, bad actions have no real consequences.
I can see the need for losses. I just can't see the need for losses of the magnitude Ian has inflicted on the echidnas. Dramatic tension can, in fact, be maintained without killing off the greater part of your cast: One look at the Knuckles series should be enough to confirm that.
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Or would you rather that the heroes are never faulted and that everything just perpetuates happily regardless of what happens?
If by "heroes faulted" you're referring to Knuckles, then I suppose my problem boils down to this: There's making a mistake, and there's being a d coward.
Everybody makes mistakes; this is not only understandable in a hero, but often serves to heighten audience identification with and sympathy for the hero. (In fact, this is a lot of the reason I like Locke so much.) Making mistakes in no way impugns the character of the hero, because it is assumed this is but a temporary and most likely accidental occurrence that will be resolved as soon as the hero realizes his error.
And then there's being a d coward. This does impugn the hero's character: D cowardice is a state of being, as indicated by the fact that it persists for a sizable amount of time. To be a d coward is to keep believing you made the right choice even when presented with clear evidence to the contrary, to fail to make amends even after you've seen the consequences of your error. Sound like anybody we know? How long did it take Knuckles to start "making things right" after seeing his people suffering in concentration camps in RtAI, or learning that their persecution had only continued and was getting worse from his father?
(more to come later, I've got somewhere to be right now, but I don't want to wait to post this. So.)
Not like this kind of thing hasn't happened before in comics...
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You really want to quibble over semantics, Lea? Alright then, I'll indulge you. Let's take an inventory, shall we? It's been a while since I last checked: Who knows, maybe I missed something?
Ooh, gee, I guess I made you mad or something. I'm sorry to have so personally insulted you on the subject of fictional comic book civilizations. But you seemed so insistent that everything was completely gone and totally beyond any kind of salvation I thought I'd point out the silver lining here (but who wants to be an optimist?). See...
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So we've kept a few characters from the run of the Knuckles series (basically, Julie-Su, Remington, and Lara-Le and family, with the rest pre-dating the series) ... and effectively gotten rid just about the entire rest of the continuity. Gee, what an accomplishment. It just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know that years worth of development can be flushed down the tube at a moment's notice. Not.
Essentially, we're left with the core cast THAT MATTERED. The characters with development. You call it fewer characters to work with and act like that's some sort of crippling element. It's not. I'd much rather ten developed characters instead of sixty empty ones, which is what we had. Let's look at some video games. Chrono Cross had about forty playable characters who had little if no development. Baten Kaitos Origins had only three playable characters, but they were EXPLORED characters with depth whose personalities played off each other. Guess which made for more interesting interactions?
Apparently it's stabbed you to the core that cardboard cutout echidnas like Terri-Lu, Rita-Li, Binny and the two Raynors most likely won't be gracing the pages anymore. Frankly I can't see why. There were literally dozens of these echidnas who had little more than a name, a position and maybe a slight variation to their hairstyle. Extras are nice; they are not crucial to the main structure.
Albion's not rubble; it needs some rebuilding but it still exists, and it has people and someone to guide them for the time being. There's no reason to think nothing more will come from this. There's no reason to think Angel Island is devoid of other life (especially as the chameleons kept to themselves anyway - not everything on the island revolved around the echidna's problems) or being used as a "dumping ground" (it's a big place and he sent them to a specific area of it, the same place he himself was exiled to, with the chance to reform). Charmy's people didn't live on the island - Knuckles' point was that Locke was putting priority on his own family being missing while not protecting the families of others, including that of a family friend. The point was that he was being selfish.
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To be a d*** coward is to keep believing you made the right choice even when presented with clear evidence to the contrary, to fail to make amends even after you've seen the consequences of your error. Sound like anybody we know?
Um... no? Because Knuckles was pretty shocked when he was told just how bad things had gotten - I don't recall him, after this realization, claiming that he was right all along. He was stricken. He became Enerjak AFTER being told what his choice had cost his people in an effort to fix what he could. Right there is him realizing his bad choice and his trying to make amends. In fact, he was insistent that it was HIS responsibility. By your own definition, "coward" doesn't apply here. Knuckles is not insisting there was no mistake made, nor has he shown any intention of not trying to rectify that mistake. For some reason you keep insisting upon this "coward" thing despite evidence to the contrary.
The echidnas have been decimated - not eliminated - and relocated to a city that's damaged - not nonexistant. There are losses - it wouldn't be a problem if there weren't. They can also rebuild. They can reinstate and re-establish the things they knew, and even if things do change - that's life. The arc's not even over yet, so how can you judge a new status quo before it's established?
Really, if it all upsets you this much, you need to take a step back, calm down and stop taking things so damn seriously. Or say a prayer for poor Terri-Lu or whoever and get over it.
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You really want to quibble over semantics, Lea? Alright then, I'll indulge you. Let's take an inventory, shall we? It's been a while since I last checked: Who knows, maybe I missed something?
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Ooh, gee, I guess I made you mad or something. I'm sorry to have so personally insulted you on the subject of fictional comic book civilizations.
Actually, the tone I was going for there was teasingly sarcastic, otherwise known as my default setting. Maybe I should stop trying to do that; it doesn't seem to translate well to online correspondence a lot of times. Oh well...
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But you seemed so insistent that everything was completely gone and totally beyond any kind of salvation I thought I'd point out the silver lining here (but who wants to be an optimist?).
Oh, so you were actually trying to cheer me up? That's considerate of you.
I thought you were just trying to justify what Ian's done to the echidnas. And seeing as I view what he's done as unjustifiable, I quite understandably felt the need to disprove you.
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Essentially, we're left with the core cast THAT MATTERED. The characters with development. You call it fewer characters to work with and act like that's some sort of crippling element. It's not. I'd much rather ten developed characters instead of sixty empty ones, which is what we had.
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Apparently it's stabbed you to the core that cardboard cutout echidnas like Terri-Lu, Rita-Li, Binny and the two Raynors most likely won't be gracing the pages anymore. Frankly I can't see why. There were literally dozens of these echidnas who had little more than a name, a position and maybe a slight variation to their hairstyle. Extras are nice; they are not crucial to the main structure.
Wow ... I think you almost completely misunderstood me. It's my own fault though; I probably shouldn't have made my last post before I'd addressed everything you brought up in yours. Let me complete my thought now, and hopefully you'll understand a little better where I'm coming from:
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I'd much rather ten developed characters instead of sixty empty ones, which is what we had.
But are the two mutually exclusive? Can't we have both? You may not think they add anything to the story (though I tend to disagree with that assessment), but can you tell me what these extras detract from the story?
Were there seriously readers sending Ian messages like "who is teh Rykor i dun understand help!!!1111" or "Hey, when're you gonna develop that dude with the French pencil mustache from the First Date arc more? I wanna know the dark secrets of his past, man!" This strikes me as highly unlikely, especially considering those characters hadn't been shown for some time even before Ian came on board. I still just don't get why Ian couldn't leave well enough alone, or how the continued background existence of these characters posed any problem to continuity or reader understanding or whatever.
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Apparently it's stabbed you to the core that cardboard cutout echidnas like Terri-Lu, Rita-Li, Binny and the two Raynors most likely won't be gracing the pages anymore.
Oh no, not at all. I don't care about any of these individuals as characters, because, as you quite correctly point out, they aren't really even characters, just cardboard cutouts. I wouldn't be the least disturbed to learn that any of the extras you just named was dead, because each of them is easily replaceable with another cardboard cutout character ... if there were any left.
This is the problem for me, that there basically aren't any left, especially among the Echidnaopolitans, who seem to have been hit hardest. Characters like those you've just named are indeed insignificant taken separately, but taken as a whole, I would contend that they constitute the very setting, the very atmosphere, within which the characters that matter act.
It wasn't just the characters of the Knuckles series that I fell in love with, it was the setting too. And now that setting, and all the intangibles mentioned above that were woven through it, has basically gone the same way as 90% of the echidna population. Can't you see how that might upset me? Can't you see how I might find it difficult to reconcile myself to the notion that such a fascinating backdrop as the Knuckles series presented us has been irretrievably lost, for no discernable reason?
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Albion's not rubble; it needs some rebuilding but it still exists, and it has people and someone to guide them for the time being.
But it's not Echidnaopolis, and more importantly, it has only small fraction of the original population. I know I keep harping on this point, but this new step-up just seems so far inferior to the old one (or even to the tent-cities of RtAI), mostly because I just hate that so many of the people are gone.
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There's no reason to think Angel Island is devoid of other life (especially as the chameleons kept to themselves anyway - not everything on the island revolved around the echidna's problems) or being used as a "dumping ground" (it's a big place and he sent them to a specific area of it, the same place he himself was exiled to, with the chance to reform).
I was just going off what I saw in S181, and the fact that many other forumers have referred to Angel Island as a "dumping ground" for Knucklejak's enemies. What you said works just as well too, though.
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Charmy's people didn't live on the island - Knuckles' point was that Locke was putting priority on his own family being missing while not protecting the families of others, including that of a family friend. The point was that he was being selfish.
But did Locke even know that Charmy's people had gone missing? And even if he did, I don't see how that would obligate him to try to find them, especially given everything else he had on his plate at the time. His first duty was to his family, as well it should be, especially in a time of crisis. Failing that, his duty was to the people he had sworn to protect.
I'm not sure how he was supposed to extend protection to Charmy's people too, or go looking for them, unless he could be in two places at once. In which case, he wouldn't have to be haranguing Knuckles to get back to Angel Island.
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Because Knuckles was pretty shocked when he was told just how bad things had gotten - I don't recall him, after this realization, claiming that he was right all along. He was stricken. He became Enerjak AFTER being told what his choice had cost his people in an effort to fix what he could. Right there is him realizing his bad choice and his trying to make amends. In fact, he was insistent that it was HIS responsibility. By your own definition, "coward" doesn't apply here.
You're quite right of course; in that instance, Knuckles wasn't acting like a coward (for the first time in a long time, as far as I'm concerned). I was talking about earlier opportunities for him to see the consequences of his actions, namely, his raids of the echidna concentration camps in RtAI in Locke's warning over the Technolotree. He had months to consider what he'd seen and heard on these occasions, and he still didn't act. I think that makes him a coward.
I've already gone over why I find the prospect of Knuckles truly not knowing what was happening to his people prior to S181 dubious, and the raids and the Technolo-convo are a big part of that. If your only evidence that he was completely in the dark is his reaction in S181, then I have to say that reaction seems decidedly at odds to me with the events I've cited above. But I suppose such seeming discontinuities would reflect more on Ian than Knuckles, wouldn't they?
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Knuckles is not insisting there was no mistake made, nor has he shown any intention of not trying to rectify that mistake. For some reason you keep insisting upon this "coward" thing despite evidence to the contrary.
Yeah, he's doing something now, once it's quite nearly too late. Nevermind the months he wasted sitting on his hands in Knothole while his people perished in droves. I'll freely admit he's not acting like a coward now, but cowardice isn't a stain that rubs off easily. I'm sorry, but it's going to take some time before I can see Knuckles as a hero again.
Never before have the exploits of ficional rodents been such serious business.
Oops double post
The Internetz IS Serious Business Tobz.
The way I see it is, why have a character in a comic book that ou actively proclaim to not care about? Why have a race that you don't mind ignoring? There's no point.
Here's a thought.... has anyone ever considered the possibility that Knuckles might have simply been in denial about how bad the situation really was before #180? VERY deep denial?
LOL at Toby, though the nerd in me can't resist informing you that echidnas are monotremes, not rodents. Ironically enough, Sonic isn't a rodent either, despite how many times Robotnik/Eggman has called him one. Hedgehogs are insectivores. I'd actually love to see one of the smarter characters call him on that misapplied insult one day; methinks he wouldn't take it too well.
I guess what really bothers me here is what's happened to Locke and Knuckles, hitherto my two favorite characters in the comic. I just feel like Ian has butchered their characters, if I have to ask questions like these of their behavior and revolve these arguments in my head. And I don't understand why he's doing this.
What's more, I feel doubly betrayed for the fact that I used to be such a big fan of Ian's. I adored Other-M, and followed it regularly. I greeted his arrival at STH with high hopes, and when he finally does get around to addressing echidna issues, this is what he gives me? I just hope things start looking up in the arc soon, that's all.
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why have a character in a comic book that ou actively proclaim to not care about? Why have a race that you don't mind ignoring?
I care about them as a whole, is the point I was trying to make. I care about the function they serve as part of the setting for Knuckles stories. And I'd only prefer them to be ignored as an alternative to having them killed off; ideally, I'd like to see them used from time to time. Though that's not going to happen now anyway, so I guess it's basically beside the point.
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Here's a thought.... has anyone ever considered the possibility that Knuckles might have simply been in denial about how bad the situation really was before #180? VERY deep denial?
Actually, I've considered that too. I think that'd have to be denial bordering on psychosis though, for Knuckles to be able to just block out everything he saw in RtAI. It'd probably be easier to block out what his father said though, since he'd so conveniently convinced himself that Locke was in the wrong.
"I'd like to see them used from time to time. Though that's not going to happen now anyway, so I guess it's basically beside the point."
That's not true. Knuckles might one day read the obituaries.
You know for me 182 was a great issiue, I mean despite what you may say about Ian at times, when he comes up with a story arc like this, he outdoes himself.
Now I know there are some readers around sites like this that say that the Knuckles turning villian story has been done time after time and should be shelved for good, but when you use a storyline that has been used in some of the biggest and most popluar comics of all-time and use one of your main heros in the main role, then you have something that may have been used before but now in an orginal way.
And this issiue contuies to show that with this story arc.
I mean here you have Knuckles who is so manulpated and brainwashed not just by Fintenvius but by the power of Enerjak that he doesn't realize his friends are trying to help him.
But they too have doubt, example of this is after Knuckles/Enerjak is captured by Eggman, that even though Sonic is up for saving the rad red, Sally is doubtful, cause even though physically they'd be rescuing their friend, meantally it would Enerjak that they would be releasing upon the world.
Locke's role as well in this, shows that he will do what he has to, to destory Enerjak once and for all, even it means destorying his own blood to do so.
Now the backstory really brought up a lot of instesting quesitons and relevations, one, we find Fin became who is today when Knuckles was a living chaos emerald and that he is now the kind of echinda that just wants to watch burn, but at the same time we find out that he might be in cohoots with Eggman, or is he?
Overall it was a good issiue, and again I feel something big and comic changing is going to happen in the climax of this whole arc, what it is, guess we'll just have to wait and see.
10/10 stars for this issiue.!
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7. Charmy's people: like the Brotherhood, included for the sake of completeness, though I've never been entirely sure if they were situated on Angel Island or not. But if they weren't, why would Knuckles blame Locke for not looking for them in "Call of Duty"?
Charmy's people had a kingdom located somewhere on Mobius, not on Angel Island. Check "The Chaotix Caper" (Knuckles #13-15) for info on it. It's a moot point anyway, as all of its residents were Egg Graped prior to #138, and Espio destroyed the kingdom (now a Robotnik base) in #169's "For a Friend".
Also, you really don't need to "bleep" out "damn"; it's hardly an offensive word.
Secure that poop Hudson!
I don't really see an issue with the recent deletions in the echidna populations. The way I see it is that all of it - Albion gone, lesser echidnas gone, etc etc - ACTUALLY occurred a loooong time ago: the day that the Knuckles comic was canceled. We're just finally seeing it manifest itself in the Sonic book now.
It's not like we can blame Ian for what he's doing... we can't possibly expect the same amount of attention to the Knuckles side of things with just one comic book. He's just simplifying things, and I see no problem with that.
