After Sonic greets Mina and Ash back from their world concert tour, Nicole tells Sonic that Mammoth Mongul 1,000+ year old ex-demi-god,has something to say to Sonic from inside Mongul's prison cell.
Basically, Mongul says, "Let me out, or face my new Fearsome Foursome."
Naturally, Sonic is sure Mongul means Nack, Bark, Bean, and Nagus, also
prisoners in the same prison.
However, Mongul means someone else all together.
Before he lost his divine ranks, Mongul hardwired the minds of four people to be his loyal minions when he gave out the mental signal.... and that signal is now given.
First... MINA! Back when Eggman took over Robotnik's empire, and Mina was
trying to find her robotocized mom, Mongul found her, and awakened her mutation that gave her speed equal to Sonic's. Then erased her memory of their encounter.
Second...MIGHTY! We learn pieces of Mighty's past that he apparent buried in his memory.
Mighty and (gasp) a little sister we knew nothing about until now, were the
children of a pair of successful bandits! When the criminal pair were eventually beaten, Mighty, still an ignorant child, wanted the power to save them, and Mongul gave it to him. Thus were Mighty's Herculean strength COMES from. The child Mighty still failed, and left Merica (the exact same country that Amy Rose and the rest of her family is from!) to eventually chose to settle on the floating island. And like Mina, had his memory erased of ever
meeting Mongul.
Third... TAILS!!!! Yes Tails, apparently, back when Knuckles -first- lost
control of his chaos powers and Super Tails took him on. Mongul during the chaos swapped Tails with a clone (the poor kit went though his year long life ignorant of what he was to only
minutes before his death learning he wasn't the real Tails). And slowly ate at Tails' super form regenerating from it. Though Sonic saved Tails, Mongul had already planted the powerful Hypnotic suggestion to rise as Mongul's loyal servant when the time was right.
Finally, all three descend and attack the forth person Mongul mentally hardwired to become his lacky at the snap of his finger when all other plans failed... SONIC!
With all three brainwashed minions coming down on him, Sonic doesn't like how this is gonna turn out.
This is where it's To Be Continued.
WOW! This enough mind control for ya?
My only regret is that since Tails is part of the discolored eyes club, that
therefore, this disaster will be solved with no lasting scars on the Sonic World. Which is kinda sad.
And FINALLY, Mighty is given some depth.
Simple side story: The badnik army under the sea decides now is the time to take revenge on Sonic (including the now jumbo sized proto-type Metal Sonic), sadly, the underwater FFs in a surprise attack kicks them into scrap metal! Ta-da!
Third... TAILS!!!! Yes Tails, apparently, back when Knuckles -first- lost
control of his chaos powers and Super Tails took him on. Mongul during the chaos swapped Tails with a clone (the poor kit went though his year long life ignorant of what he was to only
minutes before his death learning he wasn't the real Tails). And slowly ate at Tails' super form regenerating from it. Though Sonic saved Tails, Mongul had already planted the powerful Hypnotic suggestion to rise as Mongul's loyal servant when the time was right.
Alright, who called this?
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Mongul
ahem, mogul. (sorry, it was just bugging me for awhile)
the issue sounds good, i'm really happy that naugus wasn't apart of the new fearsome foursome.
My only regret is that Mogul didn't get to complete his collection of four brainwashed good guys, and from the laws of visual story telling, isn't like to, given how Sonic is likely to get his mind rescued by an ex machina before the new Fearsome Foursome can go on their first rampage. And that they only stay brainwashed for likely half an issue.
I wish Archie would cut out the side stories and give the main stories the space they need to breath.
you do realize you just basically spammed 7 topics with spoilers right? i mean, seriously not everybody reads these spoiler threads so there's no reason for you to broadcast something that some don't want to hear just yet.
I do not spam. Each thread either had a spoiler warning, or did not actually say anything particular about the issue.
What I don't get is why Mogul had Mina put on her normal outfit before going out to brainwash Sonic. She can't do evil in her jammies?
I'm just going to say the jist of what I did on another MB.
In comparison to many of Mina's other stories, this had to be one the most hollow I've seen recently. I say that because this story was just too contrived, and not just because of Mina, but on so many other levels. I saw the original outline for this story (which Ian posted on a forum long ago), and looking at the original premise and what I'm seeing now, it looks like this plot went through a story shredder. A few notable aspects remain, but in comparison to what he originally had set, it seems very butchered.
And he didn't even try to develop or foreshadow the "markings" of any of these characters in previous issues, so it seems very implausible. He rushed the story by trying to refference again, through off-panel. We never actually saw Mogul meet Mina or Mighty so again, while it isn't impossible it doesn't seem plausible, and again, looks contrived for the sake of telling a plot. The only character that this concept would have been easily beleivable with was Tails, and even still I think Ian should have taken more time to foreshadow the event so that newcomers could understand it. If I were Ian, I would have at least used Mogul to probe into Sonic's mind to find potential candidates instead of just saying: " despite the fact it had no development, this plan was in the making for a looooong, looooong time".
But that's right. The cell difuses/prevents magic. So riddle me this, Batman: how the heck can Mogul meditate and possess these so-called "marked targets" in the first place? Did I miss something here, because possesion can be still considered as magic.
If I had to rate this story, it'd get a pretty funky grade, and not in the groovy sense. The story just comes off as another, pointless action plot. There's no heart in it, no signiffigance to it aside from the plotty aspect that Mogul's going to get busted out more than likely. The concept of Mogul marking characters lacked any sensible development, and borders being a plothole. Speaking of which, this is where the score really falls: the fact that Ian established a concept and debunked it through a plothole in ONE issue. Beleive what you want but for me, Its displaying that he really doesn't know what he's doing. And if he can mess up concepts that he creates, well... I have to wonder what he'll do or has already done to the things he hasn't.
Maybe this sounds harsh, and I know many of you don't like the concepts of Ian dissent-- but I'm just being honest with myself. I read to be entertained, and if I'm not, I don't see why I can't voice my opinion, no?
The ultimate irony, is that I find it one of the BETTER issues of late. My only regret is that it's likely only to be a two part story. And as someone else said, AT LAST Mighty and Mina's powers are explained!!
And I just wonder why Ash just stared in confusion as the mind control Mina with the scary eyes put on her outfit and walked out.
ADDITIONAL:
Telepathy and magic are NOT the same thing! They are not even close!
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Telepathy and magic are NOT the same thing! They are not even close!
I disagree. His powers derive from something that is intangible, and non-physical.
Here's some definitions for magic found on dictionary.com:
1) the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.
2)any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.: the magic in a great name; the magic of music; the magic of spring.
By these definitions, yes, Mogul DOES posess magic.
Also, telepathy is defined as the transfer of information on thoughts and feelings between individuals. It sounds that in this case, he possessed characters. So even if we were to argue that telepathy isn't magic (which I could strongly argue against), the act of posessing someone without any physical explanation, based on the definitions still sounds like magic.
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And as someone else said, AT LAST Mighty and Mina's powers are explained!!
Its one thing to explain something. Its another thing to explain and develop it well.
Actually, it could be seen basically as inputting a command phrase to a shell program, and activating the desired function, since he did all the brainwashing before hand before losing his chaos powers.
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Actually, it could be seen basically as inputting a command phrase to a shell program, and activating the desired function, since he did all the brainwashing before hand before losing his chaos powers.
I'll post this again:
1) the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.
2)any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.: the magic in a great name; the magic of music; the magic of spring.
You can explain it as technically as you'd like, but it still doesn't change the fact that it by definition is magic. You speak of Mogul and the other characters as if they were computers or robots. When machines transfer information, its not a mystical influence. The fact that Mogul had to produce a mystical influence in order to possess these characters makes it magic.
Uh.... I hate to say this.. but Chalkra, Chi, Mana, Psi-Energy, are all seperate forces, all with their own rules and effects.
You can get similar results, but they do not work the same way.
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Uh.... I hate to say this.. but Chalkra, Chi, Mana, Psi-Energy, are all seperate forces, all with their own rules and effects.
You can get similar results, but they do not work the same way.
It doesn't matter how they work. If its an extraordinary or mystical influence (and in Mogul's case its both), then its technically magic. Even if we were to dismiss these as things that aren't magic, Mogul's ability characterizes an extra-ordinary influence even by Mobian standards.Therefore, it is magic, and therefore, he should not have been able to possess the characters in the first place.
Look, you're over generalizing.
Sonic and co knew already that Nicole's cage didn't block his telepathy, but he kept acting like it had no real power, so they saw no reason to figure out how to block it too.
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Look, you're over generalizing.
How am I overgeneralizing, when the term "magic" encompases a wide range of abilities?
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Sonic and co knew already that Nicole's cage didn't block his telepathy
But it wasn't even telepathy. It just goes to my post above. What Mogul did to these characters was possesion. There's a difference, and I've already explained it. And even if we did put it in that category, it just creates another plothole since telepathy can be considered magic.
Uh. It's started in plain english in the comic, several times, that what Mongul was doing was telepathy.
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Uh. It's started in plain english in the comic, several times, that what Mongul was doing was telepathy.
Well then perhaps they need a dictionary, ne? The properties of Mogul's powers at the time are technically defined as possession, not telepathy. And again even if we were to put it in the telepathy category, the fact Moul's using it in an extra-ordinary manner constitutes it as magic. And if the cell is supposed to difuse magic, he shouldn't have been able to use it. Because he could, its a plothole.
UGH!
How many times do I need to say it? Magic and ESP are not the same thing! And Mogul used them as mouth pieces, but I don't think they're completely mindless right now! That would mean he'd need to control three to four bodies at once! Thus I think that his long sleeping hypnotic command he telepathically spoke the command word for basically activated their brain washing.
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How many times do I need to say it? Magic and ESP are not the same thing!
Just because you're trying to give it a name, doesn't mean that it can't be magic. I don't care if you want to call it ESP, gumbo, pixie-dust or whatever. If it fits the definition, then its magic. End of story.
But lets look at ESP for a second. ESP, or extrasensory perception is defined as the perception or communication outside of normal sensory capability, as in telepathy and clairvoyance. Its not possession.
I hate to bring in this sort of thing, since it can easily backfire: but telepathy, magic, and gumbo, are all abtract metalphyical ideas. Thus, they normally fit whatever definition the author desires.
In this case, the archie comic writers decided that TECHNOLOGY, used to block power using mana, could not block power using psy-energy.
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I hate to bring in this sort of thing, since it can easily backfire: but telepathy, magic, and gumbo, are all abtract metalphyical ideas. Thus, they normally fit whatever definition the author desires.
Just because its metaphysical, doesn't always mean that its magic. Spirits can be metaphysical, but they do not fit the necessary terms.
Also, just because Ian desires it to be within apart of his definition, doesn't mean that it factually is. That's like saying you want Sally or Amy to act a certain way even when certain things have defined them as opposite. What happened was that Ian used abilities with pre-existing definitions without knowing entirely what they meant. Maybe it was an accident, but it doesn't change the fact that its a plothole. By definition, possession and telepathy are two different abilities, and possession can be considered as magic.
Possession implies no control by the victim what so ever.
However, I do not believe that they are simply disconnected body parts of Mogul right now. Mogul has shown using them as mouth pieces. But their behavior seems too stylized to be done by one brain.
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Possession implies no control by the victim what so ever.
Possession in this case was defined as:
1) The state of being dominated by or as if by evil spirits or by an obsession.
2) being controlled by passion or the supernatural
Being possessed ultimately means being controlled. Whether these characters are able to speak, or maintain some level of their characterization with warped allegiance doesn't change the fact that they're being possessed. As long as they're under Mogul's control to some degree, the term 'possession' can still apply. None of the definitions stated that the victim has to have absolutely no control over themselves in order to be classified. Now the degree of which they were is still up in the air, but you can't tell me for a second that these characters would be doing what they are under full control of their minds and/or bodies. Mogul has forced his will into them, and because he is able to control them its classified as some degree of possession.
Serious business is serious.
That Irkin reply was sheer poetry.
Can I be Purple? Toby you can be Red.
Possession, and mind control, in story telling, are two separate things. Possession in story telling is where basically you hijack the person's body, displacing their soul or mind with your own (Mogul wouldn't have gone into that speech of that's all he was doing).
The changes done to his Fearsome Foursome are all autonomous. THey can be doing this of their own will, but 'their own will' has been totally screwed with!!!
Mind control is a technique that's able to subvert an individual's control of their own thinking, behavior, emotions, or decisions.
Now let's look at the definitions again:
1) The state of being dominated by or as if by evil spirits or by an obsession.
2) being controlled by passion or the supernatural
Because mind-control requires a person to be dominated or possessed by some one else's will (in this case an ex-demi god), it fits the requirements of possession. And even if it didn't, it fits the requirements for magic, so its still a magical ability by definition.
So, because Mogul's power was actually possession, and not telepathy (which can arguably be considered magic still), he should not have been able to penetrate through the cell. Because he could its, well.... a plothole. 
I can see that we are getting nowhere.
You have decided to clump any extra ordinary ability with magic. Which I find extremely bias.
You are stubbornly refusing to admit to any POV but your own.
Could some emulate ESP using magic? Yes. Can it hard or impossible to tell the two apart in a poorly designed story verse? Yes.
However, as a friend of mine pointed out, "Magic is an external force to a person, part of nature, interwoven in the fabric of reality of the world. ESP comes purely from the mind of the person, ESP comes purely from the mind of the person, that is how I interpret it anyway."
Also, as another friend pointed out magic is part of fantasy, while telepathy is science fiction. "ESP / Psi and Magic can be and in the same way can be not the same. It depends on the difinition. But usually, I'd say it's not the same ... Magic being rather a kind of fantasy thing, a raw kind of energy, with cool items as wands and great colour effects and the like ... also it's less bound to rules .... as ESP /Psi is rather a Science Fictionish things, basing on mutations and rather bound to rules."
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You have decided to clump any extra ordinary ability with magic.
I never said anything about every extra-ordinary ability. Many characters have extra-ordinary abilities, but magic is an extra-ordinary influence.
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You are stubbornly refusing to admit to any POV but your own.
Sorry, but you're the one arguing by what you define magic.I'm making a point based on dictionary definitions.
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However, as a friend of mine pointed out, "Magic is an external force to a person, part of nature, interwoven in the fabric of reality of the world. ESP comes purely from the mind of the person, ESP comes purely from the mind of the person, that is how I interpret it anyway."
And where did your friend get that from? I'm using a dictionary, and I don't care if the ability comes from science fiction or a fantasy book. And to be honest, it doesn't matter to me how you interpret it. If its ability encompases what was given in the definition, then its just magic.
I pity you. And sadly, I work full time, so I don't have the time to debate this anymore.
telepathy
Main Entry:
telepathy
Pronunciation:
t?-?le-p?-th?
Function:
noun
Date:
1882
: communication from one mind to another by extrasensory means
telepathic ?te-l?-?pa-thik adjective
telepathically -thi-k(?-)l? adverb
Main Entry:
extrasensory perception
Function:
noun
Date:
1934
:perception (as in telepathy, clairvoyance, and precognition) that involves awareness of information about events external to the self not gained through the senses and not deducible from previous experience called also ESP
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I pity you. And sadly, I work full time, so I don't have the time to debate this anymore.
Firstly, nobody asked you to debate me. And for someone who has a full time job, you spent quite awhile yesterday going over this.
Quote:
telepathy
Main Entry:
telepathy
Pronunciation:
t?-?le-p?-th?
Function:
noun
Date:
1882
: communication from one mind to another by extrasensory means
telepathic ?te-l?-?pa-thik adjective
telepathically -thi-k(?-)l? adverb
I see you finally went to dictionary.com. Yes, telepathy is the communication from one mind to another, but Mogul's ability is still more accurately defined by possession. Let's look again at some of the possession definitions.
1) The state of being dominated by or as if by evil spirits or by an obsession.
2) being controlled by passion or the supernatural
Now, when we look at Mogul's ability, and what accurately defines it, he's not merely communicating to another mind like what would be in telepathy; instead he is dominating and controlling it. Possession is a form of magic and therefore shouldn't have been able to be manipulated by Mogul within the confines of the cell. And I'm not even going to bother with the other definition, since it matters little what these terms are described as. We can argue the theories behind psychic powers and magic until we're blue in the face, but Mogul's power was most definately magic. Thus, its a plothole, and you have yet to make a very convincing arguement otherwise.
I liked this issue. I thought the art was good, and the story was fun and leaves us with the potential for future good stuff. (How will Sonic fight his friends without hurting them?) I thought the little bit with Mighty was especially nice - aside from his "Sonic Arcade" Adaptation story, we've never really known much about his past.
As far as the "how did MM's telepathy/possession make it through the magic-proof barrier?" question goes, I just assumed the barrier wasn't perfect, and after studying it for a while (days? weeks? however long it's been in-comic), he found a way to slip his mind powers through the "cracks".
...There was one thing, however, that really bugs me about this issue - so much so that it made me return to the forums after being away for quite some time to ask/vent about it: How in Hades did Mammoth Mogul "find" and "mark" Mina when he was trapped in the Master Emerald?!
Mammoth Mogul was sealed just before "Return of the King" and the Sonic World Tour, and didn't get free until the Sonic Adventure adaptation. Robo-Robotnik's takeover of Mobotropolis (the point in time refered to here as when Mina was marked) is between these two - and prior to this point there has been no evidence Mogul could affect things, let alone manifest a version of his body, while trapped in that emerald.
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How in Hades did Mammoth Mogul "find" and "mark" Mina when he was trapped in the Master Emerald?!
A wizard, quite possibly Naugus, did it or had some part in it.
why would naugus work for mogul way back then? when they first met they were trying to kill each other. (back in darkest storm anyways)
at Psxphile. I'd forgotten how amusing it can be to be on the outside of one of these interminable debates.
It's so much more fun when you don't care, somehow.
I forget which one it was, but the guy who used the word "factually" in a debate about telepathy and magic immediately lost.
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As far as the "how did MM's telepathy/possession make it through the magic-proof barrier?" question goes, I just assumed the barrier wasn't perfect, and after studying it for a while (days? weeks? however long it's been in-comic), he found a way to slip his mind powers through the "cracks".
See, but that's you trying to explain and rationalize it. (Another word for this is fanwank 
) The fact of the matter is, Ian didn't establish a lot of those things when he could have and because he didn't, its still a plothole.
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Robo-Robotnik's takeover of Mobotropolis (the point in time refered to here as when Mina was marked) is between these two - and prior to this point there has been no evidence Mogul could affect things, let alone manifest a version of his body, while trapped in that emerald.
This's something else I wanted to talk about. Maybe it didn't get established and debunked in the way as the magic/telepathy thing was, but any long-time reader will know its a plothole. However, I chose not to speak about it until I could put my finger on the weird feeling I had. Something wasn't right about it, and I thank you for putting that into words. 'Nother plothole folks.
Sorry to Ian's fans, but I gotta say this. Writing like that's.... kinda sloppy. And its mistakes like these that warrant character inconsistancies and the like. Some of these mistakes might've been understandable for a new writer, but Ian's been a fan of the book for years.
It's a kid's comic about a talking blue hedgehog. If the author is saying that if whatever mojo Mogul worked up doesn't count as the type of magic that the cell is blocking, you just need to accept it.
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It's a kid's comic about a talking blue hedgehog.
Let's look at your arguement from a logical standpoint. Just because the comic is marketted to kids, doesn't mean that Mogul's power didn't fit the definition of magic, and doesn't mean that the story in and of itself is plausible writing.
Even if we were to ignore this problem there were many others. And on that token I take back what I said about Tails. This story didn't sound plausible, even for him.
If Tails was marked, Mogul should have been able to prevent the battle between him and Titan Tails, and would have thus been able to win. He shouldn't have been able to mark Mina because he was trapped was in the Master Emerald when Robo-Robotnik took over. There's been no evidence that prior to this, Mogul could had the power to do anything, so why create another version of his body, while trapped in that emerald? If he was able to do that, then he'd have been able to telepathically contact the Fearsome Foursome, or possess Mighty (or someone else on the island) in order to free himself. In fact, he would have been able to not only free himself, but quicker than what originally happened, thus allowing him to keep more of his power in addition to marking Mina. Again, plothole.
Its a kid's comic, but doesn't mean a writer should ignore beleivable writing. These kids eventually become the long-time readers that we are, and if they don't feel as if they're being acknowledged or feel insecure about the integrity of the story (plotholes within the story and characterization), they can easily leave and save their money for a manga or shojo/shonen magazine with storylines that actually puts forth more effort. Heck, with the magazines, kids can actually preveiw a series of stories that they might want to look at. And guess what? Many of these potential readers are already doing it, and have contemplated if not left the book entirely. Even Penders complained about the decline in the traditional comic book industry when he was writing the book.
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If the author is saying that if whatever mojo Mogul worked up doesn't count as the type of magic that the cell is blocking, you just need to accept it.
So by that token, I should accept every plothole that comes within this book. Sorry, doesn't work that way. With this kind of rationale, its okay for Ian to write characters like Fiona and Princess Sally OOC. Just because Ian tells the fans to beleive something that goes against what's established, doesn't mean its valid.
Since the topic seems to be derailing the whole thread, I'll try to clarify:
When Sonic is taunting Mogul in his cell, he notes the cell blocks the magic and that Mogul's level of telepathy cannot do more than deliver a headache. All that still stands.
The loop-hole is that Mogul had hexed Mina, Mighty and Tails all previously. He didn't need to possess them, the hex was already there. All that remained was a telepathic trigger. He could reach out to them because they were already "marked." So the whole plot is a combo of telepathy and magic.
I hope that clears things up!
^it clears that part up, but not the whole "mogul being in the emerald while hexing mina/having a hex on tails during the chosen one fight" thing.
also, am i the only one who's a little tired of hexing after the last arc? are people gonna have to die to break these hexes too?
I was reminded on another message broad recently of a theory Ian had years ago about Mina getting her speed from Mogul. It looks like he is going though with it.
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Since the topic seems to be derailing the whole thread
Nein, my hassenhopher. This thread was already DOA when Alex decided to create a new thread for discussing #185 when one was already made and being posted in. The only reason I didn't lock it at the time was because I wanted to keep this beautiful train wreck out of the real thread.
That, and they amused me.
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The loop-hole is that Mogul had hexed Mina, Mighty and Tails all previously. He didn't need to possess them, the hex was already there. All that remained was a telepathic trigger. He could reach out to them because they were already "marked." So the whole plot is a combo of telepathy and magic.
Even if I gave you the benifit of the doubt, this still should have been explained within the story.
Also, as guitarpalooz mentioned, the explanation you have given for marking Mina and Tails isn't enough to warrant it not a plothole. It doesn't change the fact that if Tails was marked a long time ago, Mogul would have been able to possess and defeat him when he tried transforming into Titan Tails. As for Mina, again, there was no evidence that he had this kind of power within the Master Emerald, so he couldn't have been able to mark her. If he did have that power, Mogul would have been able to telepathically communicate with his minions so that they'd come to his aid. That, or he could've possesd Mighty or some other island inhabitant. He would have not only gotten out faster, but he would have been able to keep more of his power AND mark Mina if he so desired.
Offtopic - So, which #185 discussion topic are we actually supposed to discuss #185?
Ontopic - I can't remember which issue/story (I think Ron Lim was the artist) but Mighty did mention his sister before. When I think of it/locate it, I'll report the issue number. But Mighty having a sister shouldn't be a surprise.
The one where people are actually talking about the book and not MINDLESS GIBBERING NONSENSE Questern. (PSX I love you) 
Titan Tails was EVERY Tails, not just the one Mogul marked.
...titan tails...
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Titan Tails was EVERY Tails, not just the one Mogul marked.
Oh, you're back I see. 
I could strongly argue against this, but it'd be sidestepping the point, so let's waste less and cut to the chase. If you read my prior posts I emphasized the fact that Mogul could've possessd Tails before or during the time he was attempting to rally the other Tailses together. So it shouldn't have mattered whether or not Titan Tails had the mentality of every combined Tails. Mogul was already after Tails, so If he had him "marked", he could've easily finished him off before it even happened.
Since he didn't, its doubtful Mogul has the capeability of marking and controlling other characters--well, at least in the way Ian established. Therefore, its still a plothole.
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The one where people are actually talking about the book
Umm.. we are talking about the content of this issue, Dub.
..And the plotholes associated with it. 
