If stereotyping was mass that post would collaspe in on itself like a neutron star.

~Rico

Yes, we're sure.

He had me at "Inferiorly".

~Rico

Repeat after me: Life Isn't Fair.

Or you can go the "Malcom in the Middle" theme song route and say: Life is Unfair.

The fact is that women, as a statistical average in the US, make less pay than a man for doing the same job with the same experience.

The truth is that the pay gap is shrinking, and I think that in a decade it will be gone completely.

I believe in a meritocracy where people are hired not by the color of their skin or number of X chromosomes, but by the contents of their resum.

Jimro

Untill then fear and bigotry will rule.

~Rico

I don't think fear and bigotry rule our nation right now, especially since fear and bigotry are personal traits, not national traits.

There will always be racist/sexist/ageist individuals. But as a nation, we are unreasonably tolerant (Former Taliban spokesman at Yale is a darn good example of how tolerant we are a society) and extremely fair (enforced college acceptance based on race, EO quotas).

Jimro

I can cite an obviously fact opposing that but you'd turn this off topic and hit your second warning this week.

~Rico

Not only are you a mind read but you can predict the future as well. I am actually interested in where you are going with this.

I can't think of a well known example showing that American's are fearful and bigotted. Are you referring to me as an individual?

Am I fearful?

Am I a bigot?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Jimro

Wow, you really are paranoid. Stop looking for reasons to be insulted, it's unbecoming.

And, oh yeah, I predicted it right, you went offtopic. Get back on.

~Rico

Acually I'm still wondering what your well known example of how America is both fearful and bigotted.

Since I couldn't figure out your example (I'm not a mind reader), I asked if you were referring to me as fearful and bigotted.

Clearly I'm not bigotted, if I were I would be in violation of the rules and banned from this sight. You know this and I know this, it was a rhetorical question meant for you to clarify your position. Which you didn't, on a topic you brought up.

This is not a rhetorical device. Are you going to explicitly provide your example or stick with innuendo?

Jimro

Even without you two bickering, this is a sh*t thread.

A man and a woman are applying for the same job. But it is the man that is more capable of doing the job. The man is just better at it (more expericne, smarter, older, etc..) The boss, who is also a male, picks the man over the woman because the man can get better results. The woman, however, sees this as sexist. She thinks she deserves the job even though she didn't deserves as well as the man.
Would you care to, like, I dunno, provide a recent example of something like this?

It seems like women MUST have every privilage equal to that of men. If that's the case they should also:
1) Take a punch for someone
2) Pay half of the check after a date.
3) Respect males and see them as equals. Not morons as T.V. sees us.
4) Serves up same time in prison for crimes
I'd agree with you if women hadn't just spent the last few hundred thousand years enjoying a role in society comparable to that of cattle, and weren't tasked with the largely thankless job of expelling seven-pound human beings out their tail ends.

I think I follow your logic Cycle, to summarize: Because women have had a "subserviant" place in society for recorded history it only makes sense to give them all the benefits of being a man, with none of the drawbacks.

Or did you mean something else?

Jimro

Because women have had a "subserviant" place in society for recorded history it only makes sense to give them all the benefits of being a man, with none of the drawbacks.
It's payback time, sisters.

Honestly, though, I can agree with the OP to some extent -- a minority of North American women, white women in particular, seem to have developed an unreasonable sense of entitlement about certain things, namely my credit card. That doesn't, however, speak for the majority of North American women, most of whom are still making less money than men of equivalent professional standing.

Also, this thing about expecting women to pay half the bill at a date is just plain stupid. "Hey, Vanessa, I'll take you out to dinner tonight. By the way, you're paying for half of it." What the hell is that? Do you have no class at all? Generally, when one guy invites one girl for dinner, the implication is that he'll be paying for it, in exchange for nothing more than the pleasure of her company. (And, of course, a little pleasure of an intimate nature.) That's just the way it is.

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the largely thankless job of expelling seven-pound human beings out their tail ends

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Contributing to the survival of the human race as a whole through procreation is hardly a 'thankless' task. If anything, motherhood is arguably the most important job in the world.

Contributing to the survival of the human race as a whole through procreation is hardly a 'thankless' task.
I estimate it takes the average spoiled white kid at least 12 years to thank their mother for bringing him into this world.

I believe that there is a segment of feminists who would be insulted if a man picked up the whole check. I also think that they are vastly outnumbered by the number of women who appreciate manners and are fine with more "traditional" gender roles.

However, that "silent majority" isn't doesn't get legislation passed the way a "vocal minority" gets legislation passed.

And as far as equal opportunity in the work place translating into equal burden in personal relationships...I fail to see the connection. Of course I'm probably a dinosaur.

Jimro

And as far as equal opportunity in the work place translating into equal burden in personal relationships...I fail to see the connection.
We appear to have more in common than we thought.

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Even without you two bickering, this is a sh*t thread.

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Fine, no more advice in this thread either.

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Clearly I'm not bigotted, if I were I would be in violation of the rules

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No you wouldn't. Unless you act someone directly you can say whatever you what. I can say all christians are hatemongering idiots and it wouldn't be against the rules. If it were you'd already be banned.

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Acually I'm still wondering what your well known example of how America is both fearful and bigotted.

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It's even in another ongoing thread in the form of some guy throwing his daughter on the streets for being gay. Do NOT rant on it, only warning.

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Are you going to explicitly provide your example or stick with innuendo?

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I avoid try to avoid direct examples that send the loons into a frenzy of drivel about morality, or at least their version of it.

And thats the last I expect to hear of that barring something involving the topic.

~Rico

We appear to have more in common than we thought.

Such is always the case. Liberals want EO enforced because they care about equality, conservatives want a meritocracy because they care about equality. Both want things to be equal, the devil is in the details.

Jimro

Personally, I think whoever invites the other person out to dinner should pay for the other person. It's only polite, regardless of gender.

Yes, women aren't expected to take punches, be drafted, go to equally miserable prisons, etc.

However..:

Domestic violence is for the most part perpetrated against women.
Sexual violence, coercion, and humiliation is for the most part perpetrated against women.

So... while women have certain social advantages, I wouldn't exactly say that women are in a "cushier" position.

More frivolously:

Just as men have more pressure to succeed financially than women, women have a lot more pressure to look a certain way. I was reading some teen magazine's "celebration of diversity," which was hideously ironic. Despite the fact that all the girls had different skin colors, they were all the same height and build, had the exact same long, straight, flowing hair (even the black girls). They had approximately the same facial features, and were all wearing the same picket-fence suburban clothes, regardless of their different ethnic backgrounds. There wasn't a single handicapped girl, let alone even a girl in glasses. Guess there's no room for "imperfection." For all their "racial diversity," they were all .. white-looking. Oh, and God forbid an older woman be considered beautiful. Men in their forties and fifties are still considered handsome, but actresses who hit 30 are considered over the hill. Frankly, I hate being talked to (by the media targeted at young women) like my only goal in life should be trying to look good. I have other interests, you know.

A male politician's wife is expected to peform social functions regardless of whether she has a career. She could be a world-renown neurosurgeon for all we care, but she still has to bother with the china. A female politician's husband is understood to have a career as a first priority.

Women have greater expectations laid on them as mothers than men have as fathers - eg. women are expected to spend more time and involvement in their children than men. (This isn't to say that men are bad fathers, just that society will glare at the mom for not attending her son's bake sale, instead of the dad.)

Women in comedy... men are consistently funnier. It's almost like it's socially unacceptable to have either a female comedian because it makes the girl less lady-like or sexy. But.. who cares? She's a comedian! She's supposed to be funny, not be a dream date. Male satirists will hold back on women, like those sitcoms where the man can be a big drunken snob, but his wife has to be dull, pious, perfect. Or comic strips populated by a clumsy, dysfunctional male ensemble, but the one woman is beautiful and perfect (and hence the most boring character of the cast). C'mon. Women are entitled to laugh as much as men. 🙂

...

etc etc. These are just little things that bug me, but it's always the little things, and I could think of a million more, given time. It's just that.. they're hard to understand, if you're not me.

The sword cuts both ways. I think it's rather foolish to hope for total equality, but the world would be better off if we let people do what they want and are good at, regardless of gender. If a woman wants to be an athlete and a man wants to be a nurse, good for them. If more women want to serve their country and if men want to pursue an end to domestic violence, good for them.

..

No argument, just a thought. (BTW, is it just me, or is debate more of a manly thing and consensus more of a woman thing? When I see online communities consisting of men, they always want to "defeat" the other side in debates, while online communities of women can't wait to find a common ground...)

I'm sure Jimro's going to cut me to pieces now because I can't write an organized post to save my life.

oh well. Out.

If you just read the first letter of each word is his posts they reveal hidden meanings.

~Rico

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If you just read the first letter of each word is his posts they reveal hidden meanings.

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Let's test that theory!

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Such is always the case. Liberals want EO enforced because they care about equality, conservatives want a meritocracy because they care about equality. Both want things to be equal, the devil is in the details.

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Siatc. Lweebtcae, cwambtcae. Bwttbe, tdiitd.

Uh...maybe not. Oo

But it does sound demonic! Just like Beatles records! Okay, enough on that tangent. Lets just agree that Ultra is treated inferiorly and be done with it.

~Rico

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Lets just agree that Ultra is treated inferiorly and be done with it.

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I disagree.

I'll do my best not to cut anyone to pieces, Troophead does bring up some more obvious societal expectations, namely the spousal responsibilities of men in positions of authority.

People assume a mantel of responsibility, it is never thrust upon them. If they choose not to take responsibility, it is easily passed on to one who does.

Having manners, and acting as a proper Lady or Gentleman, does make one old fashioned. Socially conservative so to speak. But women have the option now to not choose such roles.

Of course they would have to deal with the snickering and finger wagging of OTHER women. Most of the fighting between career mom and stay at home mom is between them, not between them and men.

In fact, most men are notoriously silent on these gender issues. The truth is that right now women have MORE choices than at any other point in history. I think that this is a good thing. No matter the choice a woman makes, her responsibility is to herself, her family, and lastly to society. Succumbing to societal pressure to conform means that she values herself less than others, a sad state of affairs for anyone. Conversely if a woman wants to conform to a certain societal standard, that is her choice as well, and I do hope that she will make such a choice to benefit herself.

Jimro

Well it has been proven that women are safer drivers then men. But my farther can drive damn welll better than my aunt who once crashed a car with me in it(i was a baby)People cannot be judged by gender life experience is much better. Even though women have better conected sides of the brain many men are/were intellectual gods like Steven Hawking and Albert Einstein. I myself am male and hoping to be a quantum phisisyst. Men can be any job so can women.

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A man and a woman are applying for the same job. But it is the man that is more capable of doing the job. The man is just better at it (more expericne, smarter, older, etc..) The boss, who is also a male, picks the man over the woman because the man can get better results. The woman, however, sees this as sexist. She thinks she deserves the job even though she didn't deserves as well as the man.

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i've seen this happen before. it's quite annoying.
for the most part, women have very good lives nowadays. they have every right a man does.

i hear all the time on the radio that women and minorities are encouraged to apply, has anyone thought that they are trying to be so tolerant of everyone else, that they are actually being intolerant of white males?

my dad's always told me (since i'm starting to get into the job phase of my life) that if i'm going up against a woman or minority for a job, 9 times out of 10 i won't get the job. it's a pity, but i'm sure if i were in the boss' position i'd try to avoid a lawsuit as well.

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i hear all the time on the radio that women and minorities are encouraged to apply, has anyone thought that they are trying to be so tolerant of everyone else, that they are actually being intolerant of white males?

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Seeing as how we've had what you'd call a "Free Pass" for pretty much all of humanity's existence, no, no they have not.

I don't agree that women must have the same jobs as men or hold the same responsibilities (but I don't have to go through that, women don't want to pay the bills and men love to be in charge, we both agree that the course of nature is fine here).

As for the jobs: some Jobs that demand hard labor or overwrought training like construction work or military jobs, are too dangerous on women. If it's illegal for children because of their frail bodies, the same should be applied to women.
Even women who seem tough aren't really any different from the rest of us women. We just can't take a punch in the stomach or stay a week without a shower.

As for desk jobs, a woman can top a man in some fields such as business (mainly jobs that require thinking ;p) it's then sexist to pay her less than a man because she does a better job.

Should women be paid equally as men? I think not, both genders should be paid according to their work effort. only then is it fair. and until then we women have the worst deal.

Well, not all men are toughly-built, some are just as frail as the average woman and the opposite is true as well.

You also can't just say that a woman is always better at a job and a man is always better at another one. Each individual has his or her own strenghts and weaknesses. Usually girls are good at drawing, yet you can't deny that there are plenty of boys who can draw as well as the girls or even better than them.

I think each person should be allowed to do the job he or she wants and likes to do. Because when you do something you like, you are good at it, too.

As for the payment, the better you are at doing what you do, the more you should get paid for it, too.
Of course the lowest pay should be enough to allow a person to have access to all the needs.

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Well, not all men are toughly-built, some are just as frail as the average woman and the opposite is true as well.

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women aren't capable of grown muscles, the structure of our bodies "bones" aren't as strong or arranged as a man's. true there are women stronger than us other women and bigger built but that doesn't mean they are as strong as a man.
mass and height might seem like strengths, but you can only use them for effecting balance, they don't change the body's level of endurance.

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women aren't capable of grown muscles, the structure of our bodies "bones" aren't as strong or arranged as a man's.

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Tell that to women body builders. 😉

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women aren't capable of grown muscles, the structure of our bodies "bones" aren't as strong or arranged as a man's. true there are women stronger than us other women and bigger built but that doesn't mean they are as strong as a man.
mass and height might seem like strengths, but you can only use them for effecting balance, they don't change the body's level of endurance.

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sweet Jesus get it away

Silly people. That is clearly not a woman.

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Tell that to women body builders.

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They take drugs to increase their male hormones.

i've seen several programmes on female body builders, and all of them downright swear they don't take drugs to help them.
it is possible through diet and very insane training.

I'm pretty sure that that woman once being the strongest woman in the world, that a competition like that wouldn't be held if all their contestants could only compete through drug use, though I'd love to see the Olympics if they start.

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They take drugs to increase their male hormones.

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If you are attempting to refer to testosterone and others, they occur naturally in women just as estrogen occurs naturally in men. The amount a person has will differ and that's why being male/female has very little bearing on whether you will be able to develop in a certain way--your genes decide that for you.

As for taking drugs, some men & women body builders (as well as other athletes or non-athletes for that matter) do that, but many don't either.

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swear they don't take drugs to help them.
it is possible through diet and very insane training.

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Michael Jackson sticks solidly to his statement of being naturally white, we all know that's not true but who really cares he's an entertainer.
I respect a word of honor just as you do, sadly not many use it honestly.

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If you are attempting to refer to testosterone and others, they occur naturally in women just as estrogen occurs naturally in men. The amount a person has will differ and that's why being male/female has very little bearing on whether you will be able to develop in a certain way--your genes decide that for you.

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I'm not sure what the medical term and logic is exactly, all I know is for a woman to have muscles as a man's is impossible in natural process, even with extensive training. I read it in an article and asked about it. I just didn't have enough interest to look into it much. But I guess it's an interesting topic now.
Well try to research it and I'll see if I can find some back up information on it with more explanation.

Just as someone saying something doesn't necessarily make it true, nor does reading something.

"Never" and "impossible" are strong words and rarely stand up to analysis. While there's a long way to go to fully getting the deal on genes versus environment, it seems to be safe to say that your genes first (what you do with them second or the environment) are the biggest factors in determining your development physically and emotionally. No two people are alike and just as "averages" for women/men rarely hold true for real-life women/men (who are almost always either above/below them), there's no good basis for attempting to determine what a person can/can't do soley on gender.

It is impossible for a woman to grow a bulky male muscular figure as the responsible hormone isn't in high quantities in her as in a man. And a woman will never be able to take as much strain on her body as a man can, her bone structure, mainly the pelvis and muscle won't support it.
please bear with me on this: If you restrain your vocabulary based on preternatural possibilities each time you try to make a logical statement, you get awfully confusing and annoying with repetitions. These aberrant rare happenings are needless of mention since they aren't fully proven, and drift the focus from the main widely effected issue.

Getting back to topic:
What female can handle manual labor equal to a well built male?
Naturally I don't see how she can exist, moving heavy loads, walking for hours, pulling and carrying cargo ..
To apply the same workload to both genders is inequitable. at any rate, men can't run a day care center as successful as a woman can <and in some areas it's a booming business> but we don't see men being sensitive about it, so why should us women fuss about work labor we should have more pride in our feminine abilities. it's not an insult to work in the field of your physical and mental capability. What is offensive is when we earn less for being a woman.

So what you are saying is women should have to do less work in physical jobs than men and get paid the same amount?

Mel Rose, I do agree with you to a point. Naturally, women are physically different (not to say less capable; I wouldn't handle childbirth all that well) than men. They cannot develop their muscular strength to the same extreme as a man could, I don't believe.

That said, there is the factor of willpower. There are some female body-builders who are more manly-looking than most men I know, and they certainly could kick my butt. They are, if nothing else, just as toned and powerful as male body-builders. Willpower, I think, but that's an extreme case.

As to your point about men being less capable of running a daycare... That's also pretty accurate. But if you intend to say men cannot be as patient as women or work in 'gentler' environments, you're talking to a guy who works in a nursing home (not in maintenence, either... with actual residents), teaches children's church classes, and is currently working with a group of kids in Vacation Bible School. He's incredibly worn out, but he does it, and he doesn't do a bad job.

That said, as a general rule, I do agree with you, Mel.

-Jake

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There are some female body-builders who are more manly-looking than most men I know

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Appearance is an outer change. a lot of people assume that size is strength, that is not true, especially with a woman.
The pelvis is the main player in lifting weights, it's the center of pressure, lifting weights depends on it's structure and muscle. We women have wide pelvises to give birth, because of that it's very dangerous for us to carry heavy objects. If a woman challenges her body in weight lifting she endangers herself needlessly.

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But if you intend to say men cannot be as patient as women or work in 'gentler' environments, you're talking to a guy who works in a nursing home

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That's a very honorable job for both genders, men and women can work in the same fields, I have no argument there, it's just to the matter of what responsibilities are giving to them. A consideration to gender is no sign of disrespect, I think it's very respectful that a man is treated as a man and a woman is treated as a woman.

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That said, as a general rule, I do agree with you, Mel.

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i'm glad you agree.

Okay. Fascinating stuff about the pelvis, Ms. Rose. Seems like you've got me beat in the science department.

I still agree with you on the 'sensitivity/gentleness' issue, butI also still think it's very, very general.

But you know what? If your opinions were the exact opposite, I'd still be debating it with you. Don't ask me why.

-Jake

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But you know what? If your opinions were the exact opposite, I'd still be debating it with you. Don't ask me why.

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that's perfectly fine with me

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What female can handle manual labor equal to a well built male?

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You just killed your argument with one phrase: "well built male." Most males are not well built. Most females aren't well built either. However, there are plenty of females that can do as much or more manual labor than males. The same thing goes for ALL stereotypes based on genders.

The problem is people make their stereotypes based on the "ideal" male/female when the "ideal" doesn't exist that much in reality.

Well, as a woman, I agree with you.
I have volunteered to do all you said for my boyfriend of three years, but he insists on picking up the check and whatnot. I still pay for dinner every now and again, but he says that he enjoys spoiling me, and I show every bit of gratitude for that that I can.