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Which would you rather live in, a perfect earth or outer space? You are talking in cultural terms like hell and purgatory, which are not applicable.
Cultural terms? wtf dude. Isn't that the point of this topic? To see what other cultures/religions/peoples feel about death and what happens after it?
I think he's just pointing out that those elements weren't really applicable particularly in Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs, not saying that they aren't applicable across the board. The questions were about Witness beliefs, but we don't believe in hell or purgetory, so the comparison was a little off. The basic premise of the questions were sound, though, and have already been answered.
I personally believe Heaven is NOT like Church forever. Rather, it is an eternal paridise kinda like a sunny beach in honalulu hawaii, with you playing music a lot(yay!), lots of food, and socialization possible everywhere you go. You can talk to people you meet in heaven.
I don't think heaven will be boring at all. In fact, I believe it will be a LOT like Earth, only with no pain.
I'll play devil's advocate, If you don't mind. 😛
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I personally believe Heaven is NOT like Church forever. Rather, it is an eternal paridise kinda like a sunny beach in honalulu hawaii, with you playing music a lot(yay!), lots of food, and socialization possible everywhere you go. You can talk to people you meet in heaven.
But what if my friends aren't in heaven? And no pain? Then there can be no happiness either. How would we recognize one without the other? Are we just "reprogrammed" to be happy? Then my will is altered, it is not me that is experiencing this "paradise". It is rather, a new "entity" that has been created. It is not me. I do not exist.
To paraphrase Shakespeare:
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I think, therefore I am.
I'd much rather burn in the Christian idea of hell if it means I can be with my friends. Here's a little proverb I like, take this as you will.
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Who needs god when you have friends?
I would trade in the idea of a "paradise" for friendship Monday, Tuesday, Wedensday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
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To paraphrase Shakespeare:
Actually, that was Descartes.
I'm another person who sees these things as relative. If you're asking me if I want to lie about my own loyalties to spend eternity with a bunch of Christian fundamentalists who don't share my beliefs and laugh about the fact that, if the universe is run by their rules, most of my friends're going to Hell, I don't want to go.
As Sartre put it "Hell is other people". And in my case, it's that sort of person.
I'm not saying that all Christians believe in that idea of God or Heaven - just using it as an example of why I class the catch-all idea of paradise as a bit suspect.
Oh, it was Descartes? I apologize to both parties in that case.
Oh, and besides, YOU CAN'T SEE IN HELL! WHAT PART OF "ETERNAL DARKNESS" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
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Oh, and besides, YOU CAN'T SEE IN HELL! WHAT PART OF "ETERNAL DARKNESS" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
Uh, being away from my friends, who make life worth living, IS ETERNAL DARKNESS for me.
I understand you feel very strongly about your beliefs, but you appear to be coming off as a "I'm right, you're wrong, so go deal with it" attitude.
And about what you say... How do you know that you can't see? I mean, have you ever been there? I haven't so I can't say for sure. There's a chance if what Christianity says is true and that I burn in your "Hell", then so be it. I'll be much happier in hell with MY beliefs than in heaven with someone elses. But there's a chance that it isn't. And I'm of the latter opinion.
I'm glad you feel very strongly about your beliefs, but people (read: me) do not take very kindly to having that kind of thing forced down our throats as defacto law when you haven't been able to prove it.
If you believe it, fine, I'm happy for you if you think you're going to live in an eternal paradise. More power to you. But I just don't see the same side of the fence as you do, and I don't think it's fair that you seem to expect everyone to see what you do.
I prefer the easy and simple versions of heaven and hell. Heaven being the devine presence and hell being the absence of God.
I'm a perfectionist. That's too easy for me. 😛
Thank you, Aeva.
MMS, you don't have a wire in your ear direct from God to give you an eyewitness description. Neither - as SSS already pointed out to you - do you speak for all Christians or their visions of those concepts (although if you really do want to take responsibility for the Westboro Baptist Church, be my guest).
There's no call for this monomaniacal persecution complex over your Christianity. You don't know that you're right any more or less than the rest of us. There's only one way we'll find out who is - and that involves waiting about seventy or so years, and you can't even come back to gloat.
Please respect everyone else's beliefs enough to rein in your - quite literally - holier-than-thou attitude. I respect your convictions, but I'd appreciate them a lot more if you'd respect the beliefs of everyone else, rather than sounding like the exact sort of stereotype that you complain about people seeing.
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Thank you, Aeva.
You're welcome! Although I prefer my chat name, Hukos. But whatever floats your boat. =p
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MMS, you don't have a wire in your ear direct from God to give you an eyewitness description. Neither - as SSS already pointed out to you - do you speak for all Christians or their visions of those concepts (although if you really do want to take responsibility for the Westboro Baptist Church, be my guest).
I've never heard of such an event. I'm curious actually. Mind elaborating?
I'll try to remember to call you that next time. 🙂
Linking directly to Westboro or any of its affiliated sites'd require me sticking a few content warnings up, so I'll make do with an overview for now.
*Reads article, hand meets face*
Thanks for the Article Sam.
Actually I wouldn't mind being blind if I could be with my friends and family anyway *shrug*
I actually like the idea of an afterlife. The stuff they said at my Gran's funeral earlier this week (it was a christian service) was quite nice. Never before in my life had I wanted to beleive in God and the afterlife so strongly =/ [/THREADKILL]
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lolololol God hates cigarettes (yes I know the american slang but I find the brit slang funnier in this case)
I like the idea of an afterlife, too - I'm just very wary of exactly what sort of place I want to wind up for eternity. Eternity's a pretty daunting concept...
There are noble things about Christianity imo.
I just don't think it can live up to it's promise though.
The part of forgiving others despite thier flaws and mistakes, I like that. I respect that area of it.
What I don't like are the "Sterotypical" ones. Not to say that all are, but I have met a few. But some very good friends of mine are Christian too.
In short: I like the concept, not the establishment.
I do not Stupport WBC in ANY WAY! In fact, I ranted on them on my youtube account...
I figured that you don't. Very few people do.
But - and I'm not sure that I can think of a way to phrase this that'll make it look less severe, since I'm not trying to be offensive - in reckoning that you can speak for all Christianity about the "correct" way to see things, you're acting in the exact same way they do.
Hence you're being asked to tone it down a little...
Well, I'm not trying to force my beliefs or anything...I'm just stating my views...
I understand that. But since they're beliefs rather than facts, that doesn't give you a right to say that everyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong...
I never said anyone was wrong.
In fact I don't mind if people believe differently so long as they don't treat us like morons.
I know that you apologised for your earlier quote about all atheists being weak, but:
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Oh, and besides, YOU CAN'T SEE IN HELL! WHAT PART OF "ETERNAL DARKNESS" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
And making topics where you're speaking as though yours is "proper" Christianity and you can answer questions on behalf of the whole religion (the likes of WBC included) doesn't make it look that way. It just makes you look like a Christian version of the patronising people you have a problem with in the first place... For someone who doesn't mind, you seem to get awfully heated.
And no pain? Then there can be no happiness either. How would we recognize one without the other?
Just out of curiosity, are you saying here that you believe happiness cannot exist without pain? Or that Humans can't have a concept of one without the other?
On an offtopic note:
MMSG: we understand you've a strong conviction in your beliefs and so forth, but you need to tone things down in how you're responding to people and the way you're stating things. If you wish not to be thought of or treated as a moron, you need to avoid acting like one. Pardon me if that sounds harsh, but as has already been stated, you aren't the only Christian around the place. Therefore, you need to take into account that what you say and do is likely to reflect on the rest of the believing populace.
On topic:
My beliefs are fairly solidly set. I'm pretty sure once I shuffle off this mortal coil, I'll be headed to Heaven. I have no idea what it looks like entirely, nor do I need to know. I've a strong grasp of the whole concept, and it sounds brilliant to me. Considering the relatively small amount of personal sacrifice required for entry to eternal paradise, it's a bargain as far as I'm concerned.
Of course the other side of the coin is what folks call Hell. As I understand it there're a large number of folk likely to head there, but if I'm brutally honest I only really care about where the people I care about are heading. Selfish? Maybe. Somewhat "un-Christian"? Possibly. But I figure if I were to bring those I care about to faith, they will then in turn do the same with those they care about, and so on. If it works like that, it shouldn't take too long to spread like wildfire.
Of course, I've no guarantee that I'm right. I could be completely and utterly wrong about the whole thing, and maybe once I die there's nothing, I'm gone forever. But if I am, I don't care - the beliefs I've held throughout my life will have kept me on the path I believe to be right, and will have had an effect on everyone I meet. The legacy and memories I leave behind will continue to influence others long after my death, so in truth I will never truly have died.
So I figure either way, I lose nothing and stand to gain everything if my belief in what happens when I die is correct.
Hope you guys enjoyed that =P
~SilverShadow - left his soapbox in his other coat pocket.
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Just out of curiosity, are you saying here that you believe happiness cannot exist without pain? Or that Humans can't have a concept of one without the other?
Yes, you've got it. =p
I don't see how one can understand a particular emotion without experiencing it's opposite. How can we "define" pain without happiness? I mean, I don't see how one can exist without the other.
How do you define pain? I see it the opposite of happiness and all other related emotions.
But that's just my point of view. *Shrug*
I would perhaps take issue with that view, myself. Can't a newborn baby experience emotions such as fear, pain, happiness, etc. even within it's first few minutes and hours of life after birth? It has no knowledge base on which to fall back on to define these emotions, yet they definitely exist, and the baby does experience them. And more to the point, it knows what is pleasent and unpleasent in that regard too, even though it cannot identify the emotions as an educated Human would. Surely a natural sence of 'pleasure' and 'pain' is built into the Human psychie much the same way as a natural sence of 'right' and 'wrong' is, isn't it?
I've heard another person on a diferent forum express a similar view, actually, that good cannot exist without evil to counterbalance it. While I respect both her and your views, naturally, I think personally I don't really agree. I say this because I have experienced a taste of a life without evil within the close community of my friends, and it is a wonderfully refreshing atmosphere after the chaos and darkness of modern life. It certainly works for me.
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I would perhaps take issue with that view, myself. Can't a newborn baby experience emotions such as fear, pain, happiness, etc. even within it's first few minutes and hours of life after birth? It has no knowledge base on which to fall back on to define these emotions, yet they definitely exist, and the baby does experience them. And more to the point, it knows what is pleasent and unpleasent in that regard too, even though it cannot identify the emotions as an educated Human would. Surely a natural sence of 'pleasure' and 'pain' is built into the Human psychie much the same way as a natural sence of 'right' and 'wrong' is, isn't it?
Where there is order, there is Chaos, one never without the other, the basis for my arguement.
Basically, certain emotions that you described are prevalant at birht, no doubt, but in my mind, they occur together, never without each other. And any emotion that is learned must be obtained with it's opposite. But I do see your point. I just think that you can't accurately define them without the opposite, what do you have to compare it to? I mean, if you take away "stop" how do "go"? How can you tell one without the other? But that's just how I feel, *Shrug*
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I've heard another person on a diferent forum express a similar view, actually, that good cannot exist without evil to counterbalance it. While I respect both her and your views, naturally, I think personally I don't really agree. I say this because I have experienced a taste of a life without evil within the close community of my friends, and it is a wonderfully refreshing atmosphere after the chaos and darkness of modern life. It certainly works for me.
I guess it's all percieptional. Because I've never been in that kind of environment until I came to the internet. But in my eyes, evil is just a phrase used to describe one's own percieved thoughts, just as good is.
*Shrug* I am an extitentialist(sp?) after all. 😛
P.S. Me likey the debating, even if I'm wrong. ^_^
The point of good only being able to exist with evil is that you can only tell if something is good if you have had experience with something else that is bad - and vice versa. If you've never tasted sweet and only had bitter things, then you wouldn't know the difference between the two - yet they still exist just the same as a contrast to each other. However, that doesn't mean that good and evil must exist in the same place at the same time; turning on a light banishes the darkness in a room, after all. And by their nature, good invites people who are inclined to good to gather together, while people who associate themselves with evil tend to gather together away from the light that reveals their evil deeds.
The fact that you have experienced, as you say, a wonderful life with a close family and community, would not be as wonderful or sweet to you had you not gone through that dark time you mentioned. In fact, you may have taken the good time more for granted than you would have without the dark time. So in a sense, you can be grateful for the bad time even if only because it helps you appreciate the good in your life.
I hope that demonstrates the need for good and evil to both exist simultaneously in the world; without it, we could not know the deepest extent of the good.
Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make @ Terg. Thanks.
hmm, I heard there was this lad once who had some spinal condition or something. It was a birth defect, and it caused him to be in severe pain. But because it was a birth defect, he had always had this pain. So he didn't actually realise he was in it. After all, he'd never had a moment without it. But then again, he was a trouble maker. It was due to his misbehaviour (can't remember how) that they diagnosed the defect, and he had surgery to correct it. After that his behaviour improved. He had been misbehaving because he was in such pain and he couldn't stand it, but he didn't actually know it was pain.
So how could he not stand the pain if he's never lived without it?
This arguement is pretty confusing when you look at it like that. I know this is a pretty extreme example, after all the difference between happiness and sadness is much more discreet than the difference between pain and content.
Since I saw this story a while ago now I can't remember the source, but hopefully that'll help everyone see each other's point of view.
Sorry for the post being on a sort of tangent c.c
As you said yourself, he didn't know that it was pain until it was diagnosed and treated. However, he was still affected by it just the same. I received a sprained ankle recently, which I thought was only a twisted ankle - until the following day when it was still hurting and swollen, and then I got it examined to prove to myself that it was a sprain. So the principle holds true, because whether something exists or not isn't dependent on whether it is known about.
Glad to hear they fixed his problem though.
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*Shrug* I am an extitentialist(sp?) after all. 😛
Existentialist. It doesn't really match with your "no pain without pleasure" belief, but then again there's no rule saying you can't believe part of a philosophy and partly your own opinion.
Well, part of Existentialism to be exact. I'm of the opinion that you make your own morality, values, etc. But I also see that one's own valued perception can't be formed without experiencing it's chaotic/ordered opposite.
*Shrug* That's just how I feel, pick it apart if you must. 😛
Ah right, I see where you're coming from better now. I do agree with you that without some guidance, either by experiencing an emotion's oppisite or some other means, it is difficult to define an emotion itself, yeah.
I would still dissagree that one cannot exist without the other, however. The Bible tells us in Genesis 1:12 that when Jehovah God created the Earth, he looked over it all when it was complete and "it was very good". There was no evil or imperfection in the initial creation, and life and the world ran perfectly smoothly without the need of it to 'balance things out' as it where. The account clearly states that evil and imperfection entered the world only after a time had passed, when Satan decided to defy Jehovah's sovreignty and influence the first Human pair to do the same.
So yes, it's very possible that before this time Adam and Eve would not have been able to tell the difference between good and bad through personal experience, although even they would have had the same inbuilt consience that all Humans have that would have given them a rough guide. The truth is, though, they wouldn't have needed experience to tell them right and wrong anyway, as they had a peronal and close relationship with Jehovah, as was his origional purpose with all Humankind. His kind and caring guidance would have told them all they needed to know, so they would not have had to experience the pain of something going wrong, or something evil.
Unfortunately they chose not to listen to this guidance, and because of this, "Just as through one man sin (and evil) entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12, brackets added) And since in this world now evil and wrongdoing is prevelant, we can indeed see and define good by looking at the oppisite, but just because this is the case now doesn't mean it was like this from the very beginning, nor that it absolutely has to be this way for existance to continue. It was God's purpose for evil never to exist and bother Humans, and for everyone to know only good thanks to his kind and loving counsel, and he promises that he will make it like that once again in the future.
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Me likey the debating, even if I'm wrong. ^_^
Agreed 
A good friendly debate once in a while is great fun^^
This line of argument is more religiously oriented to a Christian standpoint, as forewarning.
Think about it: if God never intended us to be subjected to evil, then why allow it in the first place? Unless God is a personage who is not all-powerful, he could wipe Satan up like a wet rag. So then, if God is all powerful, and if Satan exists and fights against God, we must assume that God is allowing Satan to oppose Him. And surely there must be a reason for that which God knows that we may not fully understand.
If we understand that God has placed us here on Earth for a purpose, and that as part of that purpose we must learn good from evil and then make our choice between the two, then it becomes easier to understand why God would allow evil to exist at all. This also means that it is incredibly important for us to have the freedom to choose between good and evil - God will not and Satan can not force us to do anything against our will.
I also see where you're coming from (Or think I do at least). I think what you're saying is that God intended for humankind to be "good" and never wanted "evil" however it still happened anyway. I'm not a Christian, but I do see and respect your pov's.
Personally, God and Satan are just personifications of the actions and consequences that humans can and do make. And so are their realms, "Heavan" and "Hell". But that's just how I see things. *Shrug*
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Think about it: if God never intended us to be subjected to evil, then why allow it in the first place? Unless God is a personage who is not all-powerful, he could wipe Satan up like a wet rag. So then, if God is all powerful, and if Satan exists and fights against God, we must assume that God is allowing Satan to oppose Him. And surely there must be a reason for that which God knows that we may not fully understand.
Agreed entirely, and this is all very true, however I would suggest that the reasons for it are stated clearly within the scriptures for us to see.
The first is indeed for Humans to prove themselves, as you say. This question was brought up in the book of Job, where Satan claimed that the man Job would disown Jehovah if God didn't bless him as he did. And he opened that challenge up to all Humans by stating "Everything that a man (not just Job) has he will give in behalf of his soul." (Job 2:4, brackets added.) So God is allowing wickedness for a time, so that we can prove to God that Satan's accusation is false, as Proverbs 27:11 says - "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." And other scriptures in the Bible clearly state that we will be well rewarded for such endurance.
Another and infinitely more important reason, though, is the issue of God Jehovah's sovreignty over his own creations. Back in the Garden of Eden, when Satan seduced Eve, he said to her that she "positively will not die" if she ate the fruit God had restricted, even going so far as to say "God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad." (Genesis 3:4,5) In these words, he not only accused Jehovah of being a liar when he said that they would indeed die, but also made the assertion that Humans were able to govern themselves completely independantly of God's caring guidance...that God was simply holding something back from them for his own benefit, was unfit to rule, and that Humans would be much better off on their own.
It's very true that God did indeed have the power to crush Satan then and there for his accusations, and Adam and Eve for their disobediance, and he still does today. However if he had done that, would that have really answered the questions Satan raised? Would it have vindicated his name from the smearing of slander on it, or would it actually have proven Satan absolutely right, painting God out to be a cruel dictator who simply crushed all who stand in his way? Both of those issues needed an answer, so in his wisdom, Jehovah has allowed time to pass without intervention on his part, to truly see if the accusations Satan made were true. And all we have to do is look around at the war, injustice, disease, pain and death that is rampant in the world today to see clearly that it was actually Satan who was lying. Man cannot rule himself without God's assistance...instead he has "dominated man to his injury" (Ecclesiasties 8:9), and it "does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jerimiah 10:23)
But the Bible also clearly tells us that this will not be a permanent arrangement. Even right there in the Garden of Eden, Jehovah prophesied that once the issues had been proven beond all doubt he would step in, put an end to the wickedness of Satan and the suffering of Humans and restore the Earth back to the paradise he origionally intended it to be, where evil no longer exists once again. This is further backed up by prophecies such as Revelation 21:1,3,4 (brackets added) - "And I (the Bible writer John, in vision) saw a new heaven and a new Earth...with that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: 'Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be any more. The former things have passed away'.", and Psalms 37: 10,11 - "And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more, and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will posess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." He promises to stamp out evil and suffering permanently, so none of us have to endure it ever again, and he will have the moral right to do so, as his truthfulness and sovreignty will have been proven beond a shadow of a doubt.
So while we are indeed suffering evil at the moment, this was certainly not the case at the beginning, and will not be the case for the rest of Human existance either. "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) It is up to us to realise the issues Satan raised, make a stand for God against them and follow his righteous standards now, despite suffering, and he will see to it that when the issues have been fully disproven and God steps in, we will be rewarded with a life that will not be subject to this evil we are suffering today.
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Personally, God and Satan are just personifications of the actions and consequences that humans can and do make. And so are their realms, "Heavan" and "Hell". But that's just how I see things. *Shrug*
Each to their own...I respect your views too, naturally. Everyone must make their own choice. I would like to thank you for an interesting and thought-provoking discussion though 
It's very true that God did indeed have the power to crush Satan then and there for his accusations, and Adam and Eve for their disobediance, and he still does today
What if that's Satan's role, help God with those who do evil.
But if that were the case, that would surely clash with Jehovah's personallity too? To create a malevolent, evil being simply to seduce Humans away from him and cause them pain and suffering would also paint him as an evil person himself, something which doesn't fit at all with the loving, caring God of the Bible.
Plus, if Satan really was created for this purpose, surely God would tell us this in the Bible? Yet the Bible clearly states Satan's origins as a good angel who turned to evil because he wanted people to worship him rather than God. The possibillity of him being created just to cause suffering to people is never even mentioned.
Back on topic. I don't think you have to worry about logical issues with an eternal paradise after death when it is created by an omnipotent being. I mean it's not like god has to obey the framework of logic
On the subject of "how can there be only 144,000?," I was at the memorial and thought of this discussion.
There wouldn't be a 144,001st person who is SOL no matter how good they are for these reasons:
Witnesses believe that God will step in to save the world. The 144,000 are people living before that event, so there would be a finite number of people who have ever lived at that time. So the theoretical 144,001st would be born after that.
People who have a paradise earth are not getting a lesser deal. In fact, why would people want to go be some energy being in space or whatever?
The idea is that those people have different instincts - the few who claim to be annointed describe it like just knowing it as central to their identity.
That's pretty much spot on Vec. All I would perhaps add is that there are those who are living now before God steps in who are not part of the 144,000 too, part of the 'other sheep' Jesus refared to in sympbolic language. These will survive Armageddon and go through into Paradise unharmed, as Humans (not transferred to some spirit body or whatever), and probably would have children as you say, yeah. Just that there are members from both classes alive now before God steps in, not just one class...it's only a small point really, just me being picky lol 
Good to hear you made it to the Memorial^^ Always a special occasion, hope you enjoyed it there.
EDIT: Oh hang on, on re-reading your post I think I see better what you mean, my bad lol. You're talking purely about the 144,000 class, not the Earthly class too? Either way you're still spot on lol. Just that there isn't really any evidnce in the Bible that there will be more added to the 144,000 after Armageddon, and it would logically make sence that there wouldn't be, as from that point on death would be done away with, so nobody on Earth would die to go to Heaven.
