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What makes you feel emotion? Hm?
Chemicals, my boy. Chemicals.
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Therefore, from the standpoint of a religious person such as myself, there must be SOME point to all this otherwise it would not exist. That's how nature works, right?
Quite simply, No.
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but that's just the thing. Isn't 'caring atheist' a contradiction in terms?
Again, you're as far from 'yes' as possible.
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What makes you feel emotion?
The amygdala, and chemicals. Why do drugs work? Vodka doesn't contain soul-altering properties.
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Anyway, people need to believe in something. Anything at all. Wnd when there is already an established faith, than they don't have to take all the time to establish one for themselves, hence Christianity.
That's like an anti-religion argument. I can see why that could be considered a positive, but it's like an admission that it's a product of instinct and culture.
Not to be argumentative, Wonderbat, but would you care to elaborate?
EDIT FOR AN AFTERTHOUGHT: The reason I post this disection of atheism is because I once considered myself one. I thought a lot about life, and soon came to the conclusion that if there is nothing after life, then none of it really matters. Those thoughts were how I defined my 'faith' (or lack thereof) and, having talked with many atheist friends, I've discovered that same general trend.
To make a long story short, I discovered I never really was an atheist simply because the ideology didn't jive with my outlook, and I gradually grew in religious faith since then.
I'm not saying an atheist CAN'T be caring by definition. I'm simply saying that, by strict definition of what it means to be an atheist, the characteristic doesn't JIVE.
As to whether or not something exists because it NEEDS to being 'how nature works,' well, we could argue 'till the cows come home. I can point out evolution, you could point out the existance of Pluto. Whatever. We'll either find out in the end or we won't, right?
-Jake
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I see nothing more hopeless
okay, so i'm a little late with this but whatever.
i'm an atheist and i'm happy as hell. i don't have a religion because to me, they sound ridiculous. that's my opinion. i'm not saying, "there's no god," or anything like that, but i also can't stand it when christians deny that there could be other gods from different cultures and think that it's wrong that there are other religions besides christianity. i've known too many people that do that.
so my view on it is, when i die, i'll find out. until then, no one can convince me that there is a god and i'll go to hell for not believing it.
<quote> so my view on it is, when i die, i'll find out. until then, no one can convince me that there is a god and i'll go to hell for not believing it. </quote>
I can see no better approach, sir. What I find hopeless is a belief that there is, without a doubt, NOTHING, and that nothing therefore matters.
Your quote here actually is very inspiring. We will all, indeed, find out in the end, I like to think.
-Jake
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i also can't stand it when christians deny that there could be other gods from different cultures and think that it's wrong that there are other religions besides christianity.
But see, there is an old saying, "if nobody's is right, then everybody's wrong" See, the idea that any God could be the right God comes from the idea, no religion is perfect, and all religions are wrong, so it doesn't matter which one you believe. I believe my Christian God: Father, Son, and Holy Sprite are the One and only God, and if you disagree with me you are wrong. But ANY view point has to take that stand. You think that everyone should accept all Gods, and you believe that anybody who disagrees with you is wrong. The whole thing about believing you are right, is believing everyone that disagrees with you is wrong. But there are people who go waaaaay too far adding stuff in the Bible and putting words in God's mouth to get other people to do what they want.
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so my view on it is, when i die, i'll find out. until then, no one can convince me that there is a god and i'll go to hell for not believing it.
What will be the difference when you die, If you don't want God now, what will change when you die?
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what will change when you die?
The obvious answer is: you'd know whether you were right or wrong all along.
The obvious answer is: you'd know whether you were right or wrong all along.
Well technically if the people who believe in the afterlife are wrong, they won't know because they'll be dead
Science and religion CAN co-exist. In fact, science often supports religion in more ways than people think.
For instance, the Christian Bible states that the world was created in seven days. Remember all that jazz about the Big Bang? Whose to say it didn't take awhile for things to form? And who was driving force behind it all?
And the whole seven days deal, how long is seven days according to a being that exists and always HAS existed? The Bible states no where that 'days' refer to the 'days' we measure.
And meanwhile, there are many things science cannot account for. Darwin himself admitted that there were things on that happen in this world that were far beyond his comprehension.
"a day in the Lord is a thousand years"
But seven thousand years is still much shorter than the average scientific theory.
I'm fine with most things on this subject until the bible starts contradicting itself.
I had a teacher my freshmen year in high school. He could merge everything sensible in the bible with its congruent scientific partner. And in a way that everyone said made sense, even me.
Disclaimer: I said SENSIBLE things. Racist, Violent and/or Bigoted sections do not count as sensible.
~Rico
I don't think the Bible does contradict its self, except for quotes, but when the Bible was written exact quotes weren't used much. But with creation.
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And the evening and the mourning were the [number 1-6] day
See it is saying one evening and one mourning is a day. 
But that's ok cause there is no possible way the Earth would survive and be inhabitable after millions of years.
What?
Isn't Roleplaying a sin?
Moreever, Wring? Call I call you, Elias. :3
~Rico
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What?
Roleplaying a sin? what?
God gave you that body and pretending to be something else is rejecting it. Therefore its rejecting God, ie a sin. Even I've heard enough preachers to know that.
~Rico
My Lord, but aren't the people nowadays overly literal in their endeavors?
~Nytloc Penumbral Lightkeeper
Unless it affects them? Yes.
~Rico
*Comes in to the Marble Garden late, and spots this discussion*
Forgive me for my tardyness, and indeed for only skimming through the preceeding posts and not reading them word for word (just enough to get the gist of them), but I feel I should express my own views as a religious person too.
Firstly with regard to science and the bible, I believe they are extremely compatable. To take just two examples, the bible says that god is dwelling "over the circle of the Earth" and is "hanging the Earth upon nothing". Bear in mind that these statements were written in an era where common belief was that the Earth was flat, and supported on the back of a turtle. Now with modern advances, we can travel into space and look back on our planet, and what do we see? The bible's words were correct all along!
Also with regard to the bible contradicting itself, me and my friends have studied the bible all through many times, and have yet to find a single contradiction in it's pages. To quote the example mentioned above about loving everyone except gay people, etc: (NOTE: I know there has already been a discussion on this, so I bring it up for example purposes only, not to hijak the topic) It is not true that god and Jesus hate gay people...they love all persons, and "do not desire any to be destroyed, but desire all to attain to repentance." What they dislike is the action of commiting the sin. If they really hated gays, then even if the person renounced his sinful course they would condemn him, but they do not...instead they welcome him and are happy that he has made the right decision. The bible says: "There is more joy in heven over one sinner that repents than a hundred rightous who do not sin"!
If anybody wishes to disagree with me on these points, then that is their perogative, however I have proved to myself through reaserch that the bible is indeed the word of god, and should be followed to the best of our abillity. All I ask is that you accept that I may have different viewpoints, and do not make sarcastic comments or anything (as often seems to happen in these threads), just as I do not make such comments about your beliefs.
Thankyou for your time.
Wraith
Ah, the forgotten Twelfth Commandment: Thou shalt not roleplay, being further explanation of the Eleventh: Thou shalt not smite thine allies in Massively Multiplayer Online RPGs as it is to have smote an entity not made by God.
Seriously, though, if it's okay for a Christian to be an actor, I think roleplaying is fine, too.
As to Wraith's comments, I commend you on your faith and have absolutely no sarcastic comments to make. I actually agree with you on quite a bit, except of course that men, not God, wrote the Bible, and there are occasions where personal opinions do come out. Perhaps not overt contradictions, but I believe in 1 Corintheans (correct me if I'm wrong) Paul lectures on marriage, and quite often says "I can find nothing on this in Scripture, but I believe... etc." The word of God is presented in the Bible, but I don't believe the Bible is purely the word of God.
My point, essentially, Wraith, is to worship God, not the Bible. God is our destination, the Bible is simply the best roadmap we have.
-Jake
DUH! You So totally forgot about that one. It's right after the Eleven and a halfth Commandment: Thou shalt not taketh it up the bumhole.
Unlike most people in marble I can laugh at stuff rather that feign offense, argue about the color of the sky, and glue litmus paper to playtapi.
God says to promote peace and love everyone. So you are ALL going to hell. 
~Rico
Kaul, it's true that it was Humans that wrote the bible, but as the bible itself says in I think it's Hebrews, as I recall: "All scripture is inspired of god and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for steeing things straight, for disciplinning in righteousness, that the man of god may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." So while god did not write the bible with his own hand, he was the inspiration behind all the different writers...they wronte what he inspired them to write, so in that way it is basically his words.
You can see this in the fact that while the various bible writers are from all different backgrounds, like sheaperds, doctors, tax collectors, etc, and lived in all different ages, every single book is tied together by three long-running and overwhelming themes, that are delt with in some way in all the books. These themes are the issue of god's sovreignty (his right to rule, called into question by Satan when he seduced Adam and Eve), his purposes for mankind, and the coming of his kingdom with Jesus as king. These themes run right through the bible from beginning to end, despite the wide and varied background of the writers...how could they have kept such perfect continuity without god's influence and inspiration?
And yes, we are not to worship the bible as a book, we should direct our worship to god alone, but the bible is his letter to us, his handbook for Humans, if you will, and by looking into it we can see his will, his feelings and his nobillity, and come to know him as a close friend.
Wraith this is great stuff. I never thought about this before but I can use this forum to get ideas for that novel. Since everyone knows Kyzarie is just a buncha religions anyway.
Ok book research time, and its actually on the original topic too.
Alright, what do you say to people that say: "The bible says to *X* (Stone prostitutes; shun other religions, gays, etc) but people say God says *Y* (Love everyone, strive for peace, ect), these are differening points in the same text. Which is right?"
My question and one I'm going to be needing very quickly in No More Heroes is how you answer these people in a way that will, as the title says, keep religion alive?
Anyone can answer, I specifically want Wraith's because he answered the last one in a way that wouldn't incite someone to fight and argue. Much like a character from my book would.
~Rico
To Wraith: Totally agreed.
To Rico: It's my personal preference to believe that most people have knowledge of the difference between right and wrong inherent within them. This is a discussion I've had with my girlfriend a number of times, and she's the daughter of two pastors and plans on being one herself. She is torn between accepting others as they are, it seems, and loving everyone as a child of God. And that is a terribly hard question for anyone of faith of any kind. I think the answer is to serve your maker as you believe He would like to be served, bearing in mind that He made not only you, but all others, and probably not just for the sake of watching His people destroy each other. The basic idea is that God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. Hence Jesus Christ.
-Jake
Hmm, see Kaul's answer was be good for the group that's considered to be fallen out of the Faith. The group that says, "Hey, if something in the holy texts seems to oppose peace, it's probably not something our god would say."
I was having trouble putting that into a more eloquent style for Kane to say. And yes that IS a really hard question to answer for someone of Faith. I still need to ask it to the real Kevin and I know it's going to be a hard one for him too. If I end up using something like that while writing, Kaul, I'll mention ya in the dedication section. :3
Really not meaning to take this off topic, just didn't want people thinking I'm in here stealing ideas or anything. That was cool, but really wanna hear Wraith's as I think he'll be the one to answer like Rico's father. And I'm having a lot of trouble on that front.
~Rico
Guys, guys.
I think we're all missing the real question at hand here:
Can God microwave a burrito so hot/make a rock so big/make a woman so hot that even he can't eat it/lift it/have sex with her?
I personally don't believe this question is hard to answer, as you need only to look at the context of these commands to understand them.
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Alright, what do you say to people that say: "The bible says to *X* (Stone prostitutes; shun other religions, gays, etc) but people say God says *Y* (Love everyone, strive for peace, ect), these are differening points in the same text. Which is right?"
Take, for example, the issue of prostitution...it was as you say a stoneable offence in Israel of the time. However, when Jesus came down to Earth, and the prostitute washed his feet, did Jesus pull away and call for her to be stoned? No, he didn't. Why? Because he knew that the woman was repentant of her former life course. in Luke 7:47 he says "By virtue of this, I tell you, her sins, many though they are, are forgiven, because she loved much." and later on in verse 50, he says to the woman "Your faith has saved you. Go your way in peace."
So was Jesus condoning her prostitution by doing this? Certainly not, but he knew that she was truly sorry for what she had done, and was determined not to commit the same sin again. It is true that god commanded in the Mosaic Law for prostitutes to be stoned, but this was only for those sinners who continued to practice their sin without regard for god. If they realised their mistake and showed themselves truly sorry for what they had done, they were to be forgiven and not looked down upon, because they had put right their sinful life and were now trying to live in harmony with god.
There is no contridiction in these laws...they are merely pointing out a "worst case scenario" if you will. God hopes that situations like that would not come to that end, and lovingly forgives those who do show the right heart condition and stop their sinning.
As an extra note though, this does not give us the abillity to simply sin as we wish, believing that if we say sorry we will be forgiven. True repentance is not simply the word "sorry", it means to completely desist from the wrong course of action and never practice it again. If we are sinning believing we can say sorry then simply sin again, this is not showing true repentance, and god will not forgive us for it.
But as stated before, god doesn't want any to be destroyed. He doesn't pull his punches, in that he does explain clearly how he feels about matters (like the laws about stoning sinners), but if people will stop sinning and listen to him, he forgives them completely.
Thats an odd coincidence. I have down Chapter 7 as the one that all the contraversial stuff occurs in in the Remembrance. Weird...
Any, thats what I was looking for. Kane argues that there are mitigating reasons for sins and that the ends justify the means. Like a hooker using the money to feed her child as there is no other way for her to do so other than lose the child to DHS.
It's the old arguement Russell says things that are fairly close to a lot of biblical teachings. Kane says that only someone that hasn't had those hardships can speak that way. So it gives the book a feeling that the really are no "bad" guys, and if you have no bad guys, there is no reason for good guys. And the end result is the book title of "No More Heroes". As in a war of beliefs, there are no winners, the middle east is proof of that and has been for millenia.
Goes back to the topic and my question on it. How do you keep faith and religion alive without hurting others and causing war?
~Rico
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Goes back to the topic and my question on it. How do you keep faith and religion alive without hurting others and causing war?
That one's simple...by following the right religion. If everybody followed the "golden rule" of "do to others what you want them to do to you" we would most certainly live in a much better world...nobody would be violent or evil, and everyone would care for each other and help each other. Similarly, if everyone was of the same religion, there would be no religiously inspired wars or atrocities. Now before anybody starts making fun of me saying I'm dreaming or anything, yes, I know this isn't going to happen with Human rule...only under god's rule can this be accomplished, but he promises to do just that very shortly when he vows to, as he says in the bible, "bring to ruin those ruining the Earth" and usher in a new paradise world here on Earth for all the rightous to enjoy.
Now with regard to a universal religion, everybody has their own viewpoints on what the right religion is, and far be it from me to try to convert anyone, but in my own personal opinion, I believe I have found the true one. For a religion to be true, it must first and formost follow gods commands, which, as I have stated above, I believe can be clearly and obviously seen in the bible. Some of those commands found within the bible are as follows:
1. The religion would never go to war, or support millitery action of any kind. Whilst god will fight for his name and purposes, he would not sanction any other violence, or support any army going out to fight a war.
2. The members of the religion would have to apply all of god's principles in their lives...things like the bible's (and therefore god's) viewpoint on sexuallity, or worship, or other factors. God gave us these principles for our own good...as he created us, he knows what's best for us, and he will also bless us for making the right decision.
3. Finally and most importantly, just before Jesus went up to heaven, he said to his apostles "Go therefore and make desciples of people of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit, teaching them all the things I have commanded you." (Matthew 28: 19,20) They followed these instructions immeadeately, traveling all around the cities and towns in the area and further afield, teaching people about god's kingdom and his purpose for the Earth wherever they could be found. A true religion today would have to also be following this devine instruction in the same way, going out into the community and teaching people god's requirements and purposes, and helping them gain understanding about him.
It is up to everyone to make up their own minds on which religion is upholding these standards, but I'm sure you would agree that following god's commandments in this way would be a nessecity for a religion that claims to be following god. This is what has led me to search and find the religion that I believe is the right one, and I hope it helps anyone else who may be having trouble with their faith to reason on and think about the situation too.
Ah therein lies the conflict of my book. Much like the sexuality issue, the main religion's holy texts single something else out as a sin. Something similar to sexuality.
Of course most of the populus agrees, because most of the populus isn't affected by it. The part that is are simply treated poorly (getting passed over for jobs, shunning in public, etc). It leads to two other groups emerging. One that sees the unfair treatment of these people as wrong, as they aren't doing anything to harm others. And the other group is looking to use that very conflict to destroy the religion and the people leading it.
This leads back to the topic.
"1. The religion would never go to war, or support millitery action of any kind. Whilst god will fight for his name and purposes, he would not sanction any other violence, or support any army going out to fight a war."
How can he never goto war if he would fight to defend himself?
"2. The members of the religion would have to apply all of god's principles in their lives...things like the bible's (and therefore god's) viewpoint on sexuallity, or worship, or other factors. God gave us these principles for our own good...as he created us, he knows what's best for us, and he will also bless us for making the right decision."
Who gets to decide who is right? God? Why would he chastise someone for something that isn't causing harm like worshiping another god or falling in love? What god would punish someone for that? A vengeful one. And that is cause for dissent.
"3. Finally and most importantly, just before Jesus went up to heaven, he said to his apostles "Go therefore and make desciples of people of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit, teaching them all the things I have commanded you." (Matthew 28: 19,20) They followed these instructions immeadeately, traveling all around the cities and towns in the area and further afield, teaching people about god's kingdom and his purpose for the Earth wherever they could be found. A true religion today would have to also be following this devine instruction in the same way, going out into the community and teaching people god's requirements and purposes, and helping them gain understanding about him."
If they do not want to listen, are they not free to think with their own mind. Why would people not listen unless there's something they don't want to hear? If you tell them something that makes no sense to them, why are they going to follow it? If someone told you you had to sacrifice a goat every sabbath because Allah says to, would you?
Whether I think all of these or not the point is that when you say, "Everything would be fine if everyone thought my way." That in itself is cause for peace to shatter. People are not sheep, they are individuals. If you tell someone that wiccans are sinners and must repent. And that someone happens to know a wiccan and knows their religion's founding rule is never to cause harm to any living being(something that can't be said of Christianity). And yet here you are, saying they are immoral. To a logical person, that makes no sense. Cause for arguements. Cause for dissent. Cause for war.
Obviously the bible is flawed if there are so many parts of it that so many people have issue with. And noone can explain WHY it is that, just that it is. Human's aren't stupid, they can think, and when you tell them not to, a lot of them will get angry.
So again, we are back to the original topic. Keeping religion alive. For something to prevent itself from becoming extinct, what does it need to do. In a radically changing world, what you need to do to survive and flourish.
Adapt.
And that is the one thing that religions can't seem to do. They can cure cancer with faith. They can give hope to the hopeless. But they can't seem to adapt.
~Rico
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Guys, guys.
I think we're all missing the real question at hand here:Can God microwave a burrito so hot/make a rock so big/make a woman so hot that even he can't eat it/lift it/have sex with her?
I don't know... I can make a pretty hot burrito myself.
-Jake
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How can he never goto war if he would fight to defend himself?
I don't understand your point. That is exactly what I said...he wouldn't go to war except for his name. That is the only reason. He does not condone any other type of war, like Humans for land, or between religions, or anything else.
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Who gets to decide who is right? God? Why would he chastise someone for something that isn't causing harm like worshiping another god or falling in love? What god would punish someone for that? A vengeful one. And that is cause for dissent.
Firstly, almost all of the guidelines god gives us in the bible are for our good, not his own. His guidelines on immorality and adultery protect against sexually transmitted diseases, his rules on treating each other fairly promotes peace and understanding...the fact that he has made these rules proves simply that he loves us dearly, and wants us to enjoy our lives free from pain, suffering, and harm.
The other rules, like for example the one of not worshiping any other god but him, are simply logical. He created the universe and everything in it, so it is only fair that we give him the respect and honor he deserves, and it is only fair that he is allowed to set certain boundaries where nessecery too. If you create a computer program, would it be wrong of you to write into that program certain rules and regulations to ensure the smooth and efficient running of said program? No, certainly it wouldn't. God has created us, not as mere robots or compu7ter programs, but as free thinking individuals, with the gift of free will...he didn't need to give this to us, but in his love he did, because he knew it would make our lives so much more enjoyable...and all he asks is that he be given the respect and honor that he rightfully deserves as the giver of life and all these gifts. What is more, he will shower blessings on those who do so, such is his kindness! Is this a vengeful god? Certainly not!
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If they do not want to listen, are they not free to think with their own mind. Why would people not listen unless there's something they don't want to hear? If you tell them something that makes no sense to them, why are they going to follow it? If someone told you you had to sacrifice a goat every sabbath because Allah says to, would you?
Certainly they are free to make up their own mind. It is up to each and every person wether they do the right thing or not. If we are telling people about god's message and they choose not to listen, we do not force the issue. What matters is that they have the chance and opertunity to listen.
And with regard to not understanding the message, it is laid out in the bible for everyone to see, if they are willing to look. We do not tell people what we believe, we simply tell them what the bible says. Nothing more, nothing less. Note in these messages I am quoting many scriptures from the bible...it is that that does the talking, not we ourselves.
And finally, about the "on't want to hear" quote: It was foretold in the bible that many would not listen. Satan the Devil is currently ruler over this planet, and his influence has "blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the christ, who is the image of god, might not shine through." (2 Corinthians 4:4) Some are so wrapped up in the pleasures and pressures of this system that they feel they have no time for religion. Some are seduced by other religions not from god, believing those to be correct. Others simply rebel against the whole idea of there being a more powerful being than them in the universe, spurning all authority of any kind and rebelling against it. The reasons for many not listening are wide and varied, but it does not nessecerily mean that the message itself is wrong. Each person must make up their own mind on that, regardless of other's views. Just because one person says they don't agree, doesn't mean the entire concept is flawed.
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Whether I think all of these or not the point is that when you say, "Everything would be fine if everyone thought my way."
No, you missunderstand me. I am merely presenting what god says in the bible. And as we have discussed earlier, god, as creator and almighty, has the right to set certain guidelines for all his creations to live by. These guidelines are not hard to attain or evil, they are simple, caring, and completely just and honorable. It is possible that some of these members of other religions truly do believe that they are serving god, and it is simply that their facts are wrong. Will these be destroyed indesciminately when god comes to eliminate the wicked? Noof course not, because their mistakes were not their fault. They will be given the opertunity to learn the truth about god and his word, so their energies and strength can be redirected into the propper vein.
God created us all, so he has the right as sovreign to be respected and honored. Back in the garden of Eden, Satan challenged that right by seducing Adam and Eve to sin. In effect, he was saying "No, god does not deserve to be god. Even though he is kind and loving and gives us all these undeserved gifts, including life itself, we shouldn't have to respect him." God was sad about this, but he responded to the effect that: "All right, we'll give the Humans a chance to see if they can rule themselves without my assistance, and let's see what happens. Can they, or can't they?"
And the world we see around us today is the result. War, disease, pain, suffering, death, evil. Human independence from god, along with Satan's influence, has caused all the problems we see in the world nowadays, and made this world a terrible place. God is deeply pained at this, and he has said that when the test is complete, he will step in to end the suffering and restore Earth to the paradise that it started out as. But there are a few, Satan, and some Humans, who will refuse to accept his guidence no matter what, and will continue to destroy and cause suffering wherever they go. For this reason, god will extinguish them and rid the world of their influence, not because he is a cruel dictator who demands everyone conform to his views (if he was then he wouldn't have given us free will!) but to save those who are good and peacable from the suffering and pain that those evil ones cause.
It is Satan and his evil followers who are to blame for all the pain. God will simply be setting things straight so everyone can live in peace and harmony as we were origionally designed to do.
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Obviously the bible is flawed if there are so many parts of it that so many people have issue with. And noone can explain WHY it is that, just that it is.
Not the case. So many people have a problem with it, because Satan has twisted this world so that they cannot see the good news. That is WHY that is. The message is not flawed, it is the world that views the message that is flawed, so that they cannot grasp it's call. If they are really willing to search and investigate, though, then everyone will be ab;e to break through Satan's interference and understand the light of truth...they simply have to try hard enough.
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Human's aren't stupid, they can think, and when you tell them not to, a lot of them will get angry.
Nowhere did I or anyone say that we were not allowed to think. As stated before, god gave us free will for a reason. All we are talking about are a few small, easy-to-keep guidelines that are for our own benefit, and the right that god has to respect. Nothing more. Beond that, Humans are completely free to make whatever choices they wish.
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Adapt.
To adapt to this world would be to give in to Satan's evil standards. Satan is currently in control of this world, and it is he that tries to force everyone to turn against god. If we were to drop god's standards and "adapt" to the world's point of view, we would simply be turning our backs on god and turning to Satan, thus not giving god the honor he deserves.
God has stated where he stands, and invites all true-hearted ones to join him there. It is not a dictatorial rule, nor a though, hard opression. But god's standards do not change, they do not lower, whereas Human and Satan's standards are progressively sinking deeper and deeper into a pit. To adapt to those standards would be to lower our own standards below gods, thereofre turning our back on him.
And see there is MORE proof of why you cannot spread the word without angering people. Most of the post comes off like anyone that disagrees is some immoral, satan following, evil person. Noone wants to be evil.
This is another point of the religion thing that comes up in my book. I'm sure if the whole world was the exact same we'd have no war and could easily fit into a single religion. But as you said, people are not robots. Believe at one point in the script I have a section on Rico, one of the faith doubters, and his brother Trevor, one of the faithful, arguing. The arguement is very similar to the debate going on here, just with much less blood and more yelling.
I can see I'm getting better at accurately producing the other side of the debate because a section read akin to the following...
"You don't seem to understand, hena. Kenji 's guideline about accepting the illusion of the prey is there to protect us from the predators. Kenji did not make them in the image of rodents, Raven did. Just as the Raven feeds on rodents, so shall he feed on their weaknesses."
The discussion here is very similar. To yours on other gods and sexuality. Although in the Warden faith it is creatures that have the form of rodents that are targeted. Just you said the rules are there to protect us against sexually transmitted disease, the section says that their god's rule is there to protect against the predators of the real world as well as the spiritual.
I'm trying to get their argument as close to reality as possible so they aren't seen as the "bad guys". If anything I want the majority of the people that come across this book to have to stop and think, take notice of what it's saying. Give it more purpose than just entertainment.
Anyway, lets keep on, the more I get into this more more I learn for the book faith.
Yeah, I do understand the only fight for yourself thing. It goes contrary to my beliefs as I think you should fight for others more than yourself. But thats a to each his own thing.
Back on the false worship and sexuality though. It's simple for a straight, devote christian to say "Just change!", as it doesn't effect them because they were already in line with their religion. Even someone that desperately WANTS to change who they are, it takes years of psychological counseling to retrain your brain to be something else. It takes time and youth to redo who you are.
To change your faith? Even WORSE, can you IMAGINE someone telling you that your beliefs are wrong and immoral and you should believe their way because its right?
Can't you, for once, look at it from another point of view? Think. Think if they told you that being straight was immoral and of the devil and you had to have mansex in order to get to heaven. Think if they told you being Christian was wrong and a devil spawned religion and you had to be Islamic to goto heaven. What would you do?
~Rico
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What will be the difference when you die, If you don't want God now, what will change when you die?
like true red said, i'll find out if i was right or wrong
and if it's true that i dissapear into nothing then i'd still know wouldn't i?
ok, so if it turns out christianity is right and i face god when i die and am sent to hell, then this "god" would contradict itself.
i'll admit, i'm interested in finding out what happens. Does that mean i'm going to kill myself? no. i'm happy with life. i'm just interested is all.
i don't fear death personally. i accept it as an inevitability but at the same time i don't want to die in a way that would freak the hell out of me. such as being like eaten by a giant spider or something.
but yeah, that's just my opinion. like i said, i'm not trying to keep anyone from believing in a "god".
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and if it's true that i dissapear into nothing then i'd still know wouldn't i?
How would you know? You wouldn't even exist. Just like my little brother Larry. He doesn't know he doesn't exist because, to be redundant, he doesn't exist.
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ok, so if it turns out christianity is right and i face god when i die and am sent to hell, then this "god" would contradict itself.
I happen to agree. Unless you've been a bad, bad boy, God is forgiving and wants you in Heaven.
Yes, we will find out in the end, hypershadow. But I do think you might be underestimating exactly what 'nothing' means. It's a hard concept to grasp, not existing, since we both obviously do exist. You can't know you don't exist if you don't exist. You can't know anything.
-Jake
Well most of thise board is bad bad boys and girls. I mean anyone over the age of 13 that likes sonic the hedgehog is a little off the norm. Most of them have a little 'furry' in them whether they'll admit it or not.
I got ONE more here. Saved the toughest for last as it refutes most of the stuff thats been said. Sorry I can't find anymore but here's a Christian revamped version of Kane's speech. See what your response would be. Because I'm stuck on a retort for the faith.
God's will is simple. Love each other and create peace. Sneering at someone that doesn't "propogate the species" is violating both those. We aren't anywhere NEAR extiniction, we could take over aliens mexican style, ie just stampedeing the border. Christianity is massive religion and most every culture on earth has some piece of it in their beliefs. Old rules to keep the faith and people alive are about as useless as the "Don't park your horse on the street" laws down here. There's just no need for them.
In fact laws like that waste resources and tax dollars, just like biblical passages akin to them are preventing love and peace.
Somewhere up there I saw someone mention they were to protect us from sexual disease. When did certain kinds of sex become more likely to transmit disease? If anything its the persecution people face about that forcing it to be secretive from everyone, even the quickee mart attendant you'd normally get protection from.
Christianty is not in danger of becoming extinct, its as flourishing as God wanted it. The human race doesn't need to spread more, we're already crowded a hundred stories high in some areas. Non traditional acceptance, love, and lust aren't killing people or causing anymore disease than traditional acceptance, love, and lust. The religion is not in danger, but it's hard headed members are endangering others.
Rico, I don't understand the point you're making with regard to the book and the conflict there...maybe it's just that I don't know enough details on the world in the book or whatever...but please note on this point:
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And see there is MORE proof of why you cannot spread the word without angering people. Most of the post comes off like anyone that disagrees is some immoral, satan following, evil person. Noone wants to be evil.
Please note that I didn't directly condemn anyone, neither was I implying anyone in particular was evil. Granted there have been those in history, and are some now, who are evil, and wouldn't listen to god's words if he appeared in front of them himself - I'm sure you'll agree with me on that point - but by far the majority are sincere and do not intend to do wrong. They are simply tricked by Satan into believing that their actions are the right ones...they cannot be called evil for ignorance. It is this reason that god has organised the preaching of his word too, so that everyone will have a chance to hear his word and make their decsision where they stand before he acts.
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Yeah, I do understand the only fight for yourself thing. It goes contrary to my beliefs as I think you should fight for others more than yourself. But thats a to each his own thing.
You make a good point in part here, and I admit I did make a mistake by leaving that part out earlier...as well as clearing his name from the slander Satan has thrown up against it, part of god's motivation for the war when he eventually steps in will be for the sake of suffering Humankind as well. He cares for Humans deeply, and wants to save them out of Satan's vile system of things. The truth is though, that god has the power to fight for the only things that could justify violence, and will soon step in to do so, so god will fight for rightious Humankind. Humans will have no reason to fight themselves, and do not even now...petty Human disputes and wars are unnessecery, and a terrible waste, and god does not agree with them.
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Back on the false worship and sexuality though. It's simple for a straight, devote christian to say "Just change!", as it doesn't effect them because they were already in line with their religion. Even someone that desperately WANTS to change who they are, it takes years of psychological counseling to retrain your brain to be something else. It takes time and youth to redo who you are.
True, but with god's help, anything is possible.
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Can't you, for once, look at it from another point of view? Think. Think if they told you that being straight was immoral and of the devil and you had to have mansex in order to get to heaven. Think if they told you being Christian was wrong and a devil spawned religion and you had to be Islamic to goto heaven. What would you do?
I have considered things like this, and continue to do so every time I come across a new point to consider. Please understand, Rico, I'm in much the same boat as you to some degree...I am not speaking here simply as a person with a religious background who is blindly quating what they have been taught. I have searched long and hard through many different ideas and religions, proving or disproving them to myself, and what I say to you now is the result. I look at any idea I find and test it for any truth, to see if they are part of the truth or not. Some things do not hold up, and so I disgard them, but if I cannot prove them wrong in any way, then they must be the truth!
That is where I speak from now. I have proved to myself that these things are true, by testing them out...reaserching into archeology, history, personal interactions...whatever field is required to test the reliabillity of what I am considering, and what I talk to you about now is a basis of solid, indesputable facts that I have proven to myself without doubt to be true, that I can find no fault with. If I could find a problem with it, then I would disguard the ideas and move on, however until that happens, I will continue to believe that this is the truth, because I can find no fault with it.
I have and will continue to look at it from other points of view, but I have yet to find a point of view that makes more sence than what I currently believe.
And a quick word on the other posts:
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ok, so if it turns out christianity is right and i face god when i die and am sent to hell, then this "god" would contradict itself.
This is very true, the idea that a kind, caring, loving god would send anybody to a firey place of torture is completely abhorrant. With this in view I and my friends have also conducted investigations into the topic of hell, and we have actually descovered that this is not actually a bible teaching. The word some translate hell, "sheol", Simply refares to a grave, or hole in the ground, and the bible says in Ecclesiasties 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are consious of nothing at all" (itallics added). Verse 10 continues: "there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in sheol, the place to which you are going." and this is further backed up by Psalms 146: 3, 4 where it says: Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground. In that day his thoughts do perish." (Itallics added). The word used for "spirit" here means simply "breath" in the origional language, like an exhillation.
This point is proved further by the trials of Job: at Job 14:13, when Job was in the midst of his terrible trials, he prayed to god "Oh that in sheol you would conceal me, that you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!" If Job really was in so much suffering, why would he cry out to go to a place where his suffering would only be added to a hundred fold, as it would be in the "hell" many portray. Surely he would want relief from his suffering, not more of it!
And lastly, Jesus himself supported the bible's viewpoint on this matter when he was raising Lazarus, his friend. In the account in John 11, he said to his apostles "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am hourneying there to awaken him from sleep." (verse 11) likening death to simply sleeping. In fact his apostles missunderstood, thinking that he did mean sleeping, so he had to clarify later in verse 14: "Lazarus has died."! So the bible simply states that death is not the passage to another relm where you will be tortured day and night forever, but simply a state of nonexistance, similar to a really deep sleep. What is more, the fact that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead proves that he and god are capable and indeed happy to raise those that have fallen asleep in death back to life, and god promises that this he will do after he has stepped in and erradicated the wicked! Those who have lived a good life and proved they are rightious will be brough back to live forever in his promised paradice, never to die again!
EDIT: Spotted Rico's second post after posting my own responce.
I'm afraid I don't understand the point you are making there Rico, please could you explain a little further?
Not really, its all there. I'd just be repeated myself.
Okay I've found the time to examine your post in more detail, and I'm afraid I'm still not certain about the point you're trying to make, but with regard to this point:
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When did certain kinds of sex become more likely to transmit disease?
It's the promiscuity that spreads the disease. The bible teaches that one man and one woman should come together in union, not going around sleeping with fifty different partners a month as some do today. Sex itself is not the problem, it's the way others view it and use it.
And I'm kinda assuming from this part:
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Non traditional acceptance, love, and lust aren't killing people or causing anymore disease than traditional acceptance, love, and lust. The religion is not in danger, but it's hard headed members are endangering others.
You're meaning acceptance again (correct me if I'm wrong)? If so, in the same vein as what I said earlier, it is Human and Satan's standards that are slipping, not gods. What right do we have to claim that god should accept somebody who isn't doing his will? To turn a blind eye to a sin that someone comits would be to go directly against everything god teaches...it would call into question the entire religion, not just a single point, in that "if god was wrong about that, how do we know he was right about everything else?" That ios why god will not change, nor does he have to, because the guidelines he gives us are correct and complete, given to us for very good reason. He does not lay needless commands on us for the sake of it, everything he says has a good basis behind it.
I hope that answers what you were saying...I'm still not certain I understood you fully.
Ok so there is no real problem with other sexualities as long as you stay with one person?
Your post is just as confusing as mine I'm afraid. >.<
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To turn a blind eye to a sin that someone comits would be to go directly against everything god teaches...
This would be what we call an exaggeration. About like my story book religion calling those that accept looking a certain way (image of the prey, i.e. rodents) a smear against everything their god teachs.
Some of today's hottest religious issues are based on single phrases in a book that we know to NOT even contain all of the books about Jesus and God. It could not even be a real testament of God. I would think that is enough to maybe err on the side of peace and look before you judge.
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it would call into question the entire religion
If accepting a peaceful, kind, loving, and outgoing person calls into question an entire religion. Might it BE time to re-examine it?
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This is more a personal note than research but I've heard that "Every rule the bible has, has a good reason behind it" phrase quite often. And I have yet to hear a real reason for persecution of the two things I've mentioned. Sexuality and other belief systems are both no longer a danger to christianity's ability to survive and flourish. Nor are they a danger to mankind at all. And anger, fear, hate or other negative emotion towards them only destroys hope of the peace that God wants so ardently wants for mankind.
~Rico (posting at work AGAIN)
Ah okay I missunderstood you. No, the bible does give clear guidelines about sexual practices that are viewed as "unclean" by god. For example, when Paul was writing his letters to the various congregations after Jesus' death, he listed the types of people who would "not inherit god's kingdom", in other words, who would not be accepted by god unless they changed their attitude, and one of the types in the list was "men who lie with men" (I could find the scripture and cite it if you wish to look it up yourself). This is just one of many examples that give god's viewpoint on non-biblical sexual practices. In the very next verse, though Paul goes on writing to the congregation: "Yet that is what some of you were"...this problem is nothing new, and people suffered from the same missunderstandings and temptations back then as they do today, but many were able to overcome it and come into a clean standing before god, a testiment to the fact that it is possible, if people are willing.
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To turn a blind eye to a sin that someone comits would be to go directly against everything god teaches...
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This would be what we call an exaggeration.
I don't believe it is. The bible is the authority on all aspects of life...it is god's letter to Humans explaining who he is, what his views are and why we are here. To suggest that one single item of this letter is wrong or out of place would suggest that god is fallable, and call into question all his other statements too, making them just as fallable.
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Some of today's hottest religious issues are based on single phrases in a book that we know to NOT even contain all of the books about Jesus and God.
It is true that there are other books that claim to be from "god" but the bible is the only true book that was actually inspired by god. It's history, science, prophecy, everything in it is 100% accurate, and that is why I personally believe it is truly god's message. As I said before, I have reaserched it and proved it to myself.
So what of all the other books that claim to be about god? Well, the sad truth is that they are indeed about a spirit creature, but not god. It is Satan the Devil who has created such a mass of conflicting and chaotic religions in this world today, in the hope of confusing people and misleading them from the real truth to be found in the bible. As stated before, he is "blinding the minds of the unbelievers" so that they cannot see the truth about god for all the conflicting views.
But god has seen to it that his word, the bible, inspired by him and written for our help and kind assistance, has not been consumed fully by Satan's slander, despite numerous attempts by many different quarters trying to ban it, stop it being translated into languages people can understand, or even outright destroy it, over the ages since it's completion. He has made sure that we do have the truth about him, if we care enough to search for it and listen.
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it would call into question the entire religion
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If accepting a peaceful, kind, loving, and outgoing person calls into question an entire religion. Might it BE time to re-examine it?
Please note that I said if we were to adapt and change god's laws it would do that. The bottom line is, god's laws are perfect, and not only do they not need changing, Humans have no right to do so. When I said that above I was merely saying that if one of those guidelines could be called into question, it would cast doubt over all the rest, however to date I have found nothing that is able to call them into question.
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This is more a personal note than research but I've heard that "Every rule the bible has, has a good reason behind it" phrase quite often. And I have yet to hear a real reason for persecution of the two things I've mentioned.
That is because there is no reason: persecution of any kind is not a bible teaching. The bible teaches "as far as it depends upon you, be peacable with all men" regardless of their sexual orientation or religious beliefs. God loves all Humankind, regardless of their background and current standing, and if we are to immitate his standards, then we should do the same. We should certainly not persecute those who are currently in the grip of sin, but try to help them to come to a more accurate knowledge of what god wants of them with kindness.
Of course, this does not mean we turn a blind eye to the sin they commit. Regadless of how very precious they are in god's eyes, they are still sinning, and as such are considered unclean to him, however he wants them to repent and stop their sin, not be picked on and persecuted. In order for them to be completely acceptable to god they must cease their sinful course, but they are certainly not cursed or cast off by god just for having a weakness. The only time he would cast them off is if they specificly refused to listen to his message after being given a chance to hear and turn around, and even then, if they have a change of heart afterward, he would turn and welcome them warmly.
God only rejects completely those who choose to reject him, and even with them, he does not expect anybody to treat them with disrespect or persecution.
I guess that would be the problem them. As much as I joke about it, I do believe in God. Like the Serv, or Dark Warden, reject some held beliefs of their religion, I do not believe that the christian bible is a true testament of God. I know in my heart that God would want all his people to be able to be who they are so long as it is in a peaceful way.
I do not believe God would want his children to cast out people because they read books of the Koran or practice spiritual beliefs of Buddah.
I do not believe God would want his children to cast out people for loving someone they cannot bear children with.
It is one thing to cast out someone that is purposely destroying peace. Someone that has refused help and continues to harm others or simply make others suffer.
It is a wholely different thing to cast out someone who is different from you. Solely because of those differences.
I'm not saying I'm right, but I still have yet to read a reason handed from God that would show that other faiths and sexualities are causing harm to people or working against the ideals of peace.
~Rico (Dark Christian?)
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I'm not saying I'm right, but I still have yet to read a reason handed from God that would show that other faiths and sexualities are causing harm to people or working against the ideals of peace.
Because it is not the way Humans were designed. When god created Humans, he made them man and woman, so that a man would leave his parents and "stick to his wife, and the two would become one flesh." Humans are designed specificly for hetrosexual relationships, and no matter what small comfort other relationships may bring in the short term, in the long term they would only cause harm to the individual's psyche. Just like if you try to operate a machine in a way that it is not designed for, eventually it will become damaged. Not to mention the risks we have already mentioned like sexually transmitted disease, etc.
Plus it could well be that there are other problems that we are currently unaware of. It would stand to reason that god wouldn't go into extreme scientific detail when he was writing the bible, perhaps with genes etc, as people at that time simply wouldn't have been able to comprehend it and called it stupid. At the end of the day though, the guidelines are there only for our own protection, so that we may have a happy, fulfilling, and enjoyable life, as god origionally planned for us.
And as for religion...as mentioned before, god created us, so it is only fair that he is afforded honor and worship as the almighty. Plus the fact that he wants what is best for us, when his rival, who wants to be reviered as a god himself, only wants to hurt us and see us suffer. With both of those aspects in mind, surely it is only fair that god is, in his own words from the bible: "a god exacting exclusive devotion", in other words, requesting that he be the only one given honor as a god. After all, he is the only god out there...he created everything, so to pray to a god other than him is assigning deity status to a nonexistant concept, or even to his arch enemy Satan...how demeaning is that!
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I do not believe God would want his children to cast out people because they read books of the Koran or practice spiritual beliefs of Buddah.
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I do not believe God would want his children to cast out people for loving someone they cannot bear children with.
You're absolutely right, he doesn't want his people to cast out anyone, nor does he want to cast anybody out himself. He loves all Humankind no matter their mistakes, knowing that we are imperfect and are prone to sin every so often. The only time he would ever go so far as to cast someone off is if they were given the chance to hear his message and make the choice to serve him, and they refused. Then and only then would he leave them to their own devices, but even then, he would be hoping that they change their mind, as "there is more joy in heaven over one sinner that repents, than over a hundred rightous who have no need of repentance." Also even though he has cast them off, he would not expect his followers to completely reject them unless the person was actively trying to draw them away from god, and so they have to sever contact with them for their own protection.
To show god's feelings on the matter, an extremely moving and wonderful scripture comes to mind...the bible says in many places that god has perfect justice and posesses incredible power, but talking about another of his qualities, 1 John 4:8 says: "He that does not love has not come to know god, because god is love." (itallics added). Note it doesn't say he "posesses" love or "shows" love...he is love. He is the very personification of love, it permiates his every action, his entire being, it is so inextricably linked with his existance that everything he does cannot help but be affected by it. He showed this incredible love by sending his son, Jesus, to die an excruciating death for us Humans, who are nothing more than dust compared to him, so that we could be saved from Satan's influence and Adam and Eve's sin, and continue living in the paradise that he will soon bring about. He loves us so much that he would never condone persecution, and would never ever destroy anybody unless they catagorically rejected him and refused to listen to his kind counsel. All of this, when I realised it from reading the bible, was incredibly profound for me, and brought me to tears when I first understood the implications. It is this that has given me my faith, and I will stick with it to the end.
Again you are stating things just as likely to occur in any relationship. Nothing that is more likely with same sex couples. I'm a much more stable and well balanced person than many straight people I know. So saying their psyche is less damaged than mine makes no sense.
That passage and others like are the main reason I can see the truth behind the lies and hypocrisy of the people that wrote the bible, the reason Gods real plan is so obvious and why people that reject for the falsity of the christian bibles words irritate me so much. I truely believe that God is right. Satan rules the world now, and he does so through the corruption of the books we call holy texts.
Nothing that causes harm to harmless people is Gods word. The nonsensical passages smeared into Gods words of peace are the very way Satan hopes to destroy peace. What better way to do so than by planting the seeds of war in the texts of peace?
I'm afraid I don't understand...what is there in the bible that causes harm to harmless people?
EDIT: I personally believe the bible to be the word of god, and I shall explain why I believe this in a moment, but before I do, may I ask a question so I can understand your point of view better?
You say:
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Nothing that causes harm to harmless people is Gods word. The nonsensical passages smeared into Gods words of peace are the very way Satan hopes to destroy peace. What better way to do so than by planting the seeds of war in the texts of peace?
If that were true, then yes, it would indeed be an effective way of doing things, however for this to be the case, it is only logical that Satan would have to be more powerful than god. Is this what you are suggesting?
You agree that god loves Humankind, correct? If that were so, then no matter what Satan tried to do to his true word, and no matter how many false duplicates he made, god would never let him implant his evil words directly into god's true letter, surely. God would always see to it that there would be at least one pure, unchanged, true copy of his words for Humans to view, just to make sure that Humans had the chance to know the truth of his words and follow them. Wether they chose to believe this true version or one of Satan's frauds would be up to them, but he would make sure that his real, true message was available to those who wish to read it.
The only logical reason he would fail to be able to do this, is if Satan were more powerful than him, meaning he could not stop Satan making these alterations. In that case, may I ask if that is what you believe? Forgive me, but I am having trouble understanding the details of your argument...surely Satan is not more powerful than god?
KILL THE WITCHES
^ That's to the first part that totally got obscured after your edit.
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What is there in the bible that causes harm to harmless people?
Shunning.
~Rico
But surely it's only logical that there would be a certain few who god would be forced to shun? I don't know if you're a parent or not, but suppose you were. If you had a child, and that child had a friend who was constantly beating him up and making fun of him, and was leading him into bad habits that could harm him, would you sit by and do nothing, letting it happen? No, surely you would speak to the child, and explain that his friend is bad association to be with, for the sake of his own health and wellbeing. In the same way, it is only reasonable that our heavenly father advises us against associating with certain ones who refuse to follow bible standards for our own safety and protection. God loves all his creations, but he won't simply turn a blind eye to those that are causing problems. What sort of a kind, caring leader would he be if he allowed those good ones who were doing his will to suffer through a lack of care? Surely it is unrealistic to assume that he will not reject certain ones if it is absolutely and undeniably nessecery?
I think, if I may offer a simple explanation from my Christian side of the Gray Area...
It isn't so much God or the Bible that breeds hate, but rather the interpretations people make of the Bible, and thus of God Himself.
-Jake
