Before people at school start branding me as racist. I just want to know why all of the immigrants who want to come over to the states ILLEGALLY do not want to get in trouble for it. And then have the gall to protest. Well not them. But people in the states. Theres no such thing as a job an american citizen "just wont do". Its just that the business people will automatically pay an illegal less money. On purpose, because that illegal will take whatever he or she can get.
And I feel sorry for the people who did come to the states legal. I mean what a total rip off. Thats like standing up to get your diploma. After years of hard work and study. And then find out that everyone is getting a diploma simply because they are 18.
No kidding. This is one instance where Bush has failed the country in a big way.
I mean, have you seen the signs at these protests? They have no interest in assimilating. And how the heck can they think that they're somehow OWED the right to a living here when they came illegally in the first place?
All of these protests are flawed in their approach. Basically, they're protesting the fact that they're illegal and don't want to be deported. It's not about racism; it's about the law. Legal immigration? Fine by me. Illegal immigration? No way.
Build a wall, and start cracking down on those who employ illegals. That'd be a good start to reversing the damage.
And students, seriously, do they even know why they are out protesting? I doubt it. They probably think its a racist issue. But its not. Either that or they are only ONLY out their protesting and missing school because their friends are. One guy in my reading class was making a shirt during the lecture that said "Immigrants are not criminals" and so on. I wanted to ask him if he truely understood the issues. But I didn't. I don't fully understand the issues. And theres no point in picking a fight when you don't have firm ground.
Quote:
This is one instance where Bush has failed the country in a big way.
Hmm...the Iraq War might be another...
Anywho...I find it funny that if you are against Illegal immigration, you're considered a bigot. Funny, I'm against illegal immigration but that doesn't make me a bigot considering I get along well with anyone, including said Latinos/Chicanos who make up the illegals.
It's one thing to allow immigration. It's a stupid mistake to allow illegal immigration. I don't really have to say anything, if thats not completely obvious...
Of course, this country WAS founded on illegal immigration though.
~Rico
Quote:
Of course, this country WAS founded on illegal immigration though.
There are laws in place now. Laws that forbid illegal immigration. But are they being enforced properly? Not really.
Quote:
There are laws in place now.
o.o
I was speaking about when the europeans came to this land and drove the native's off it. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
~Rico
I'm talking from a right/wrong perspective. Even THOUGH our country was founded on 'illegal' immigration (I'm not aware if there were any laws in place prohibiting undocumented immigration to different lands back then), there ARE laws in place now that forbid illegal immigration.
Oh hush and keep paying my medical bills. 
~Rico
Undocumented workers face a much higher risk of being exploited by employers in the agriculture, commercial contracting, manufacturing and hospitality sectors of the economy than those who are documented. They work in jobs that most Americans don't want because they are high labor and low pay areas of labor. They pay over a billion dollars annually in federal and state taxes.
Undocumented Mexican workers cook and clean in the restaurants you eat in, landscape parks and homes so that they look beautiful, build alot of the roads you drive on, harvest the food you eat, and do a thousand other things that affect you daily. The work they do stimulates billions of dollars for our economy.
Quote:
I'm talking from a right/wrong perspective. Even THOUGH our country was founded on 'illegal' immigration (I'm not aware if there were any laws in place prohibiting undocumented immigration to different lands back then), there ARE laws in place now that forbid illegal immigration.
Funny how you claim you're discussing right and wrong, and then proceed to dicuss legality. Laws aren't morality, although ideally the former are based upon the latter.
It was immoral to come to America and drive people off their land.
I know it was wrong for the Europeans to take the land from the Natives. But dammit thats come and gone. Its the PAST. Let it be. Let it DIE. This is now. And evils of the past should NOT be an excuse for continued wrong doings.
Calm down dear, it's only Marble Garden.
~Rico
Okay. I'll uh...calm down. o_o
Well do you think this is like another civil rights movement?
No, because Civil Rights protestors had a case.
Protesting because you're not allowed to illegally enter a country and just stay there is simply ludicrous.
I suppose you're talking about the protests in LA and Dallas that were going on earlier this week?
I hope not. Sarcasm was just to get see who the psycho's are in this thread. The ones that didn't notice my reply was also silly.
Seriously though like I said to BEGIN with (Rather than the silly comment ultra decided to focus on and ignore the bulk of the post) Immigration is fine. But the masses of people pouring across our borders is ridiculous. We shouldn't specified, "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses. Just, make sure they check in with us before they come in."
~Rico
Quote:
Undocumented Mexican workers cook and clean in the restaurants you eat in, landscape parks and homes so that they look beautiful, build alot of the roads you drive on, harvest the food you eat, and do a thousand other things that affect you daily. The work they do stimulates billions of dollars for our economy.
And legal immigrants don't?
1. MONEY
2. FREEDOM
Guess America isn't such a bad place to be really.
I think that a guest worker program would solve a lot of problems associated with illegal immigration. A lot of workers only want to come here for a year or two, earn money, and then head back to their family in Mexico.
I once had my employer lose an entire work crew because of something happening in Mexico and they all needed to go back. Never did find out what the reason was.
However permanent immigrants really deserve a more streamlined naturalization process. Right now five years is speedy.
Jimro
I've been seeing pictures on other websites from the protesting. It seems the illegals put Bush right up there with Hitler. I can't help but think they have it backwards. Didn't Hitler invade other countries? And what do they think they are they doing?
Quote:
And legal immigrants don't?
The last time i checked, unless you have a high skilled profession/job, it is unlikly that you'd be allowed to stay and work. And i don't think that someone legally entering the country (with permission to work)with highly skilled profession would be want to be a cleaner.
Quote:
It seems the illegals put Bush right up there with Hitler. I can't help but think they have it backwards. Didn't Hitler invade other countries?
That would be outside the scope of this topic (read Iraq war).
There were completely different motives for war between Hitler and Bush...but that's off-topic.
When I made that reference to Hitler the Iraq War was the last thing on my mind. But oh well. I guess that is off topic. Now theres the whole language thing. Man and I've never been good with spanish. I mean I took the required class in school but I'd never do it again. I'd rather learn french. But being able to speak two languages gets you more money I think. So is it so hard to learn English or what? I don't think so.
Immigrants of all kinds gain some degree of English fluency because of exposure to English speaking culture and people. Around 50% of Dallas is both Spanish and English speaking.
It's not like actually, I don't know, learning a new language (Spanish, French or whatever) isn't beneficial to you. It teaches you not only about another culture, but also more about the structure of your own language.
In Mexico high school kids have to take a year or two of English. If you're a high school kid in some parts of Europe you may be required to take courses in 2 or 3 languages that aren't native to you. In Canada you'll probably be forced to learn some French. In most US colleges (public or private) you're going to experience the joy of taking 2 more years of foreign language in order to fufill your graduation requirements. Pick whatever language you want, honestly unless you're entirely fluent in both English and Spanish you aren't going to make more money in the future.
But then again, you may value knowing stuff more than money?
3. Education.(there is over half million students learning English in the United States. Many get work here and stay).
I came to learn English. This language is 20% easier than Spanish. French is 1.5 times harder than Spanish. Greek, German, Russian, Hebrew,...two to 3 times as hard as Spanish....
That's a good point Elp, I didn't think that education would be a reason for permanent immigration.
Shows you how much I know 😛
Hitler invaded his neighbors in an imperialist grab. We invaded Iraq to end Saddam's regime, find where the heck the missing WMD's are, and install a stable democracy to help stabilize the region.
Critics say that this is an imperialist grab all about oil.
Top Ten Reasons why Bush isn't Hitler. These are all original Jimro, but in your mind please read them as if Letterman were doing the nightly countdown...
10. Bush doesn't require a funny salute, altho some use their middle finger.
9. Bush is a short commander, Hitler was a short commander with a mustache.
8. Hitler's government shot jews, Bush's VP shoots lawyers of any ethnicity.
7. Hitler fought Russia, in the wintertime. Bush fights Russia all the time on the security council.
6. Texas cuisine beats German cuisine.
5. German beer beats "Lonestar beer".
4. Hitler was a good public speaker. GWBush barely manages to speak in public.
3. Hitler looked like a tyranical dicator, Bush looks like a monkey.
2. Hitler fought against French weapons in France. Bush fought against French weapons in Iraq.
And the number 1 reason why Bush isn't like Hitler....Hitler had higher approval ratings.
That's as funny as I get Rico, hope you enjoyed it.
Jimro
There were completely different motives for war between Hitler and Bush...but that's off-topic.
That's not the point. He said "Hitler invaded countries" as a distinction between Hitler and Bush. Motives aside, Bush has invaded two countries.
So is it so hard to learn English or what? I don't think so.
Learning a language with a million words in it is not exactly an easy task. Especially when you consider how frequently it breaks its own rules.
On the subject of illegal immigration, I think it's pretty amusing how a person who crossed the border into the States without going through customs, and basically declared himself a citizen of said country without actually immigrating to it, is now holding up a sign at a protest that says "No 2nd-Class Citizens". I mean, sorry Pablo, but you're going to have to work your way up from "guy who kind of missed the point of having a border in the first place" before you can be a citizen at all, let alone a second-class one.
Not bad Jimmy, I'll give ya a 9. Of course I give myself a 10.
~Rico
To address a point D B brought up, considering some of those students are possibly American citizens (or their friends) due to being born here while their parents came here illegally, they'd understand exactly why they're protesting.
The "racist" part that gets thrown around comes from other issues that Hispanics deal with combined with the fact that some people are ignoring the non-Hispanic illegal immigrants in this country that come through Canada or Mexico. The U.S. borders two countries--not just one--and illegal immigrants come across from both--not just one.
True Red,
I agree that we have Canadian border issues, but 8 to 12 million illegal immigrants did not come from Canada. That is potentially a full third of the Canadian population.
Fix the biggest leak first.
Jimro
Well I've talked to a few students. Most of them know why they are protesting. The rest just wanted and early release from school. The teachers seem to not really care when they make posters during class.
I've come to the point where I can't be angry anymore. At first I was angry. But Now I just want to understand. I still think its wrong but I don't hate these people.
Jimro, the problem with equating the estimated numbers to the Canadian population is the implied assumption that its Canadians that are doing the illegal crossing. Many Europeans/Hispanics/Asians have gotten into Canada and crossed the Canadian border just as many cross the Mexican border. The easiest ones to identify are those on foot (which usually tend to be Hispanics on the Mexican border), but many get in via cars/trucks on both borders. That's not even counting those that fly in from any country in the world.
I would estimate, conservatively, that 80% of the people who illegally cross the border into the States from Canada are smuggling pot. Moving to the States is not exactly something a lot of Canadians do voluntarily.
Quote:
Many Europeans/Hispanics/Asians have gotten into Canada and crossed the Canadian border just as many cross the Mexican border. The easiest ones to identify are those on foot (which usually tend to be Hispanics on the Mexican border), but many get in via cars/trucks on both borders. That's not even counting those that fly in from any country in the world.
Source?
Jimro
Considering I thought it was relatively common knowledge that people become illegal immigrants in this country via many methods besides "walking," I had to re-read that several times before I think I got the point you're trying to make that I wasn't claiming. If you believe that I was saying that there's an equal number of people coming across both borders, then you're mistaken. If you're just looking for examples of Europeans/Hispanics/Asians crossing both borders that were caught (or originally accounted for but then lost, particularly those on student visas), I don't have the time to find some examples right now.
He just likes to think he's the only one that knows what www.google.com is, Kat. 
~Rico
Why Rico, I'm so glad that you are a mind reader!
Could you tell me how mind read so I can be as cool as you?
Jimro
People will move to other nations. it has been done historically. The United States is the one with the best record when it come to immigration.
The English, Welsh, scots, Jews, and Dutch moved and occupied illegally the Eastern Coast of what is the United States between 1600-1783. The spaniards occupied the Southwest, The South, and West between 1550s-1820s. Later, when the Irish came because of the potato famine in the 1840s followed by the Germans, they were attcked. They were folowed by the Chinese,German and Eastern Jews, poles, Ucrainians, Russians,Italiasn,...that immigration was closed.
Then, because of WWII, Mexicans like my granparents came to work on the fields or railroads under a program called bracero, similar to the guest worker program advocated by George W. Bush. It ended in 1964.
Then, President ronald Reagan signed the amnesty law of 1986 granting over 3 million amnesty. This ended in 1989.
Salvadorans, Nicraguans,...were given preferential treatment because of their governments implementing anti-communist policies. While Cubans, Vietnameses,...were given theis treatment for being part of Communist nations.
9/11/01 changed the views on immigration.
Now, there is a declaration about human rights.
The Universal Declaration on Human Rights states:
Quote:
Article 13
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14
1. Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution
Somehow, Mexico always comes into the picture when discussing immigration. But Immigration is a two way street in both directions
Here are the rough facts for those who think this nation (The united sates)has been overun.
There are over 500,000 Americans living in Mexico. The vast majority are not legal residents but entered as tourists. You find them in Ensenada, Rosarito, Mexicali, Ciudada Juarez, Guadalajara, Cancun,...
http://www.peoplesguide.com/1pages/retire/work/bil-maste/%23americans.html
http://www.go2vallarta.com/?page=vallarta_articles/nov2402.php
Or is it 1 million Americans?
http://www.peoplesguide.com/1pages/retire/work/bil-maste/%232americans.html
Quote:
If her projections are correct, that there are 1 million Americans in Mexico (600,000 in Mexico City) and 42% of them have Mexican immigration status, then there should have been 420,000 non-tourist card visas issued for all of Mexico, and 252,000 in Mexico City alone (the accuracy of which is not recognized by INM). Alcocer is further reported to have said, that "about one-third of US citizens living in Mexico City [200,000) are married to Mexicans" (this is a claim I've not heard made before, nor as a former resident of, and now a regular visitor to, the city have I seen evidence of).
While the Mexican Census [up to and including the 1990 Census] regularly included a country-by-country breakdown of the number of foreign-born residents, the question was not included in the 2000 questionnaire, from what I've learned and from what El Instituto Nacional de Estadstica, Geografa e Informtica (INEGI) told me. (If that information is still available it'll take Sherlock Holmes to find it!)
INEGI did report 88,000 American-born residents in 1960; 97,000 in 1970; 157,000 in 1980; and 195,000 in 1990. It's unclear just what these numbers representwere only Mexican citizens counted (and recorded as foreign-born) or were expats living in-country at the time of the Census added, also?; I've been unable to find the answer to this question.
Of the U.S. citizens residing in Mexico, I think it is generally acknowledged that relatively few of these people formally register their presence in-country with one of the consular offices. (U.S. citizens in Mexico really aren't different than their countrymen in other parts of the world, from what I've read on the citizen-registration issue.) In addition, there are an undetermined number of U.S. citizens who spend varying amounts of time in Mexico on a tourist card (FMT) or with no visa whatsoever (particularly in the approximately 20 mile-wide border zone).
I million Mexicans living in the United states?
http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/matriculaconsular.htm
Quote:
The matricula consular is an identification card issued by the government of Mexico. An estimated million Mexicans living in the United States now carry the card, a great number of those being Mexican nationals illegally residing in the United States
.
But what do mexicans say about immirating to the United states?
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=41
Quote:
3.2.2005
Survey of Mexican Migrants, Part One
The Pew Hispanic Center's Survey of Mexican Migrants provides detailed information on the demographic characteristics, living arrangements, work experiences and attitudes toward immigration of 4,836 Mexican adults who completed a 12-page questionnaire as they were applying for a matrcula consular, an identity document issued by Mexican diplomatic missions. Fieldwork was conducted in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas, Raleigh, NC, and Fresno, CA, from July 12, 2004, to Jan. 28, 2005.
Major findings in this report include:
When asked how long they expected to remain in the United States, a majority of respondents picked either "as long as I can" (42%) or "for the rest of my life" (17%). Meanwhile, 27 percent said they expected to stay for five years or less.
By a 4-to-1 margin (71% vs. 18%), survey respondents said they would participate in a program that would allow them to work in the United States and cross the border legally on the condition that they eventually return to Mexico. Respondents who said they had no form of U.S.-issued photo ID were even more positive (79% vs. 16%).
Among respondents who said they intended to stay in the United States for "as long as I can" or for "the rest of my life," a clear majority--68 percent--said they would participate in a temporary immigration program that would require them to return to Mexico. Acceptance of the idea of a temporary program was even higher--80 percent--among those who stated an intention to return to Mexico within five years.
By a margin of 72% to 17%, respondents said they would participate in a program that offered the prospect of permanent legalization for migrants who lived here for five years, continued working and had no problems with legal authorities. Respondents who said they had no U.S.-issued ID were even more positive (79% to 15%).
The largest shares of positive responses to questions about both programs came from young, relatively recently arrived migrants, who comprised nearly half of the total sample.
By wide margins, respondents in the overall sample (79% vs. 13%) and among those who said they had no U.S.-issued ID (82% vs. 12%) said that their friends and family in Mexico would be willing to participate in a temporary worker program that would eventually require them to return to Mexico.
The survey captured a distinctively young and recently arrived segment of the Mexican-born population living in the United States. Nearly half of the sample (48%) was between 18 and 29 years old, and almost half (43%) had been in the country for five years or less.
By this you can see, that estimations of illegal immigrants in The united States from Mexico are wrong. Also, no one pays attention the the large illegal American population in Mexico.
Elp, I hate to bring this up, but the pages you listed showed just how difficult it is to count Americans in Mexico, and that the "half a million" number is HIGHLY suspect.
Quote:
Therefore, the best factual estimate of Americans living in Mexico is below 150,000. The statements I earlier referenced about Jalisco are not true, and those being made about other areas of Mexico are also highly suspect.
The one million expat American projection is just that, a projection based on the work of one person. The official number is still below 150,000.
If we use the low estimate of 8 million illegal immigrants in the US versus 150,000 Americans in Mexico, that gives us a ratio of 53 to 1. That doesn't sound like a very equal two way street to me.
Jimro
Actually, I can understand the confusion. It wasn't the best worded sentence and I'll admit that. ;p
Unlike other posters here, I can back my stuff Jimro because I have seen it, not just read it, since I have lived on both sides of the border and hold dual nationality.
Have you crossed the Mexican border, Jimro? Many times Americans are given the green light without being asked to show documentation after being asked a few questions.
As soon as you cross pass Tijuana, you will colonies of American expatriates. They are the majority in Rosarito.
See link http://www.sdro.com/rosarito.htm
Quote:
Since then, Rosarito has been an important tourist resort. By 1995, Rosarito population was 46,128.
Thus, just reported in Rosarito, Jimro, there are over 50,000 Americans living there by now.
I lived in Mexicali. to the South, there is also a colony at a place called Rio Hardy. I never counted them, but is in the thousands. They don't let the locals (Mexicans in).
I used to deliver newspapers to people whose primary language was English. They prefer the Mexican side to save on money, since many are retired.
Then there is Cabo san Lucas, Cancun, Acapulco, Puerto Vallarta (also the majority), Guadalajara, Mazatlan, Mexico City,...
In Los Angeles, I had access to records of students. I did analysis from 1987-1995 at the elementary school where I worked. Compton is an immigrant city. Guess what, the highest was in 1987 when 24% of the students were foreign born. Since Mexicans have 3 kids on average, I estimated that Compton's population was less than 20% illegal. The law of 1986 had changed the status of many. Many of those people are now legal residents. At my latest school, less than 5% are illegal. I know because I know who the students are.I llive in the immigrant section (LA city has neighborhoods like New York but without power: Watts, Florence, Boyle Heights, Lincoln Heights,...are among the ones with illegal immigrants). Thus, I estimate the Mexican illegal population i LA city to be less than 5% also out of 3 million. The illegal ones work in costruction, stores, gardening,..LA county has close to 10 million. Thus, 200,000-400,000 illegals at most. Thus, illegal immigration of Mexicans is a myth, More than half the cities in Los Angeles don't have illegal immigrants from Mexico.
So my estimation is 1-2 million at most illegally from Mexico, and over 400,000 Americans in Mexico, for a 5:1 ratio at most.
The latest illegals are from China, Korea, India,....not from Mexico.
1-2 Million from Mexico?
You're joking, right?
Almost missed this quote.
Quote:
They work in jobs that most Americans don't want because they are high labor and low pay areas of labor.
Well, yeah. After all, Americans don't quite except low wages coming to around a dollar an hour. Or maybe 50 cents an hour. If illegals start demanding higher wages (perhaps minimum wage, to start?), then the 'cheap labor' market will dry up in a heartbeat.
Undocumented is the term we prefer to illegal, wonderbat.
This group includes less than 2 million Mexicans.
Millions enter every year as tourists, and many overstay their visas, thus becoming undocumented, even though they entered legally.
Only 300,000 jump the fence or cross the rivers. More than half are caught trying the first time, thus giving inflated numbers of almost a million a year. Of those wo make, they go back to Mexico.
Not every Mexican you see is undocumented. We have higher birth rates than Whites, Jews, Asians, and African Americans. My children , bephews, ...all born here. Half my family (brothers, siter), also born here. Unless you are a Mormon or a Baptist, most Americans have 1-2 kids, provided they are straight. Mexicans have 3-4 kids.In Los Angeles county Whites barely increased in a decade from 1990-2000 while Hispanics(Mexicans, Salvadorans, Guatemalans,...) increased more than 40 %.
The Asian population increased more than 100%, yet, no one targets them. They only have 1-2 kids also. Thus, their increase is due to immigration.
Another myth, rampant growth due to "illegals".
Census showing growth rates of less than 1%. yet it was over 1.5-2% during the baby boom era (1946-640. Even numerically, it was over 3 million at one time.Whites were then 88%, Blacks (now African Americans-less than 10%), Hispanics 3 %, Asians and native Americans less than 1% combined.
By 2000, Whites were less than 70%. Hispanics were 12.5%, African Americans 12.3%,Asian 3.6%.American Indians (Native Americans)1%.
Some crude facts. Half of us lived only in 2 states: California and Texas.
In 2000, Mexicans were 20.6 million. They were 14.6 in 1980. A 6 million change in 20 years, or 1 million per every 3.3 years, or 335,000 per year. Our growth rate is about 2% annually, thus, multiplying 14.6 times .02 gives about 290,000 normal growth for our people.Thus about 40,000-50,000 are illegal per year times 20 (years since 1986-2006) gives one million roughly using a low estimate. Thus my number of 1-2 million of undocumente Mexicans.
Maybe this can open the eyes of people to the myths created by politicians to get elected.
Most undocumented Mexicans got amnesty with Ronald Reagan's signing of the law of 1986.
Most "illeiggal (undocumneted) get paid over $6 an hour, ultrasonic. Those in construction even more.
The reason they get hired because they last longer, complain less, and don't cry disability at those jobs than those born in The United States.
I sort of blame the business people. They know they totaly want all this cheap labor. It must be really tempting.
Quote:
The reason they get hired because they last longer, complain less, and don't cry disability at those jobs than those born in The United States.
Source please. And FYI, illegals don't pay taxes. And some of them are also on welfare, if you can believe it.
Quote:
Undocumented is the term we prefer to illegal
A lawbreaker by any other name is still a lawbreaker(can't quite remember how the original quote went, but you get the point).
Quote:
illegals don't pay taxes. And some of them are also on welfare, if you can believe it.
WRONG! That's only a myth: There are many who actually pay their taxes yearly. Just because they broke one rule doesn't mean they will break all others.
Even so. Should they still be allowed to get away with breaking that rule?
By now its probably too ate to deport anyone. But the government can still stop more from coming in. At least to buy some time and sort this giant mess out!
