A suicide and a sacrifice are two different things.

I'm not sure how anyone could even save thousands, if any, people by killing themselves--not in any situation I think of. Well, I can think of a few, but they're extremely farfetched. Like, superhero movie farfetched.

A sacrifice, in its deepest biblical meaning, is the act of offering something (usually an animal or a person) to a deity as a show of respect or fear; sometimes as a peace offering. And although it depends on your beliefs... I'd say killing someone is bad. Especially since there's a chance that the god(s) you worship don't exist.

A very good point. I suppose someone could sacrifice one's life, in effect being suicide, but I stand very much corrected.

Arigato, Wesu san!

*Bows respectfully*

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jimro

But by saying that sacrifice is a sin, millions - no, billions of soldiers that gave their lives in war for our freedom have committed a sin.

And men who join the army knowing they risk death by going into war are also volenteering for sacrifice.

I would imagine it's more a question of motivation for the "suiciding to save others" concept. If it is because the person is looking to save others, to the extent that they kill themselves to do so, then that would be generally praised by Christian values. However, if the person was seeking death, and saving others was just a convenient bonus, then that would be far less admirable as far as Christians are concerned.

But by saying that sacrifice is a sin, millions - no, billions of soldiers that gave their lives in war for our freedom have committed a sin.

Men try to fight for their lives in the war. A sacrifice is forced or voluntary.

Not just for their lives though. To a soldier, his top priority is to do what he can to prevent anything happening to his country and kinsmen.

The soldiers that fight in war are brave men and women who have taken the weighty task of defending their country. They are prepared to make sacrifices, to give up their lives, if necessary, so that their family and friends back home won't be bombed to hell or be invaded. If willingly laying your life on the line for your country isn't sacrifice, then I don't know what is.

I always saw sacrifice as being, not only an offering to a deity, but when you give up something willingly (and the 'sacrificed' item in question is not coming back).

Sacrifice is not a sin in that you can make sacrifices without actually doing it all old-school and killing somebody. Usually nowadays making a sacrifice would entail just giving something up, wouldn't it?

Usually nowadays making a sacrifice would entail just giving something up, wouldn't it?

Yeah. If you noticed, I was referring to the biblical meaning.

Martyrdom was always looked upon highly, back in the day; but usually involved being killed for your beliefs/ideals, rather than killing yourself.

Suicide and dying are two different things.

I can't think of any realistic scenarios where killing yourself, as in terminating your own life; would cause any real benefit, besides suicide bombing which is usually more destructive and destroying life, than saving it.

It'd be a very very iffy subject. I'm sure the dudes upstairs are already having a headache over it

Let's just stick to martyrs, everyone loves a good selfless hero.

What if you push a stroller with two babies in it out of the way of an oncoming train, but you yourself can't move off the tracks and are splattered as a result?

You knew you weren't going to make it, so in effect you killed yourself in order to save the lives of others.
I don't think the big guy would exactly frown on that.
I mean, everybody loves babies....

Especially with BBQ sauce. XD

That's sacrifice, not suicide.

Suicide would be ending your own life, yourself; and again, I don't see how that can save lives.

So suicide can never be a noble act, only sacrifice.

OK, how about someone leaps in front of a train, causing the train driver to bring the train to a halt. just yards further down the track, someone is found with a broken leg lying on the track, where he would have been killed by the oncoming train had the man not jumped in front of the train earlier.

In this situation, the man dies and saves someone else's life. However, he didn' know about the other man on the track, he just decided that throwing himself in front of a train was a good way to suicide.

I agree that suicide is not a noble act, but it is possible - if unlikely - that it can save lives. This is why I would mark the difference between suicide and sacrifice in terms of the intention of the person dying - as in whether they are looking to kill themselves or save other people as their main motivation.

Nope, that's sacrificing your life for someone else. As in the death was coming, you took the bullet for someone else.

Noble act.

Suicide is creating the death for yourself, not taking it from someone else.

OK, how about someone leaps in front of a train, causing the train driver to bring the train to a halt
It takes about a mile to bring a freight train to a complete stop.

Ehh I'd only let myself die if it meant saving someone whom I cared about, or someone who looked like a good person. Or....well, many other people in different catigories I'd go down for.

Is it a sin? Well I don't know that for sure... and if God punishes me for it, then....rats. x.x

~T2K

i think something everyone is just assuming here is that suicide is an actual sin in christian beliefs. which it isn't. at least, not as a necessary orthodox view needed for salvation. i in my studies have never found anywhere in the bible that it says that suicide is the unforgivable sin. in fact, i would say the simple act of suicide is certainly not condemning. but, given the frame of mind and outlook on life that a typical suicidal person has, i would say that they probably do not have salvation purely because they probably don't have faith in Jesus Christ.

------------------------------------------the-Krayon

To be 100% honest, I don't believe EVERY single word of the Bible. I think that some of the passages are merely stories to teach us lessons and so on.
I've always been told suicide was a sin but that doesn't make it correct. No one can be sure. Not unless you are willing to find out but please, DON'T!

I can understand how suicide could be a sin in that you are taking a life, in this case your own, and I can understand how it isn't but in my opinion, suicide whether a sin or not, is still a bad thing because you are leaving behind everyone you love. They are the most important people to you.

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Theologians over the centuries have analyzed the question of suicide and sin and come to the conclusion that it is based on the following reasoning.

It is a sign of lack of belief that God will provide a solution to your problem, so you take matters into your own hands instead of trusting God. Faith is the biggest part of Christian life. If you don't have faith, then you cannot have salvation, from a strict Biblical standpoint, the Catholics take a different view, but they believe suicide to be a mortal sin.

It is self murder (murder = killing for some personal gain), and murder is clearly a sin.

Sacrifice on the other hand, is encouraged. Christians are saved, and therefore already going to heaven, so saving the life of a non-believer gives him/her more chances to be saved. This is why when a grenade is thrown into a bunker, soldiers will jump on it to save their buddies lives. I can't begin to explain the love that soldiers have for one another, but it builds bonds stronger than anything except family.

There is ancient wisdom in this saying "This Too Shall Pass". The phrase is not found in the Bible, but the lesson surely is. If you are feeling down, have faith that eventually you will be lifted up. If you are on top of the world, take care and remember that it doesn't last.

Jimro

Like everyone rightfully said, sacrifice is for others. Just like how Jesus went on the cross for all of our sins. That was a sacrifice.

But, there are bad sacrifices, like when Satan worshippers sacrifice other people for the Devil.
That's just scary...

Are you serious? Didn't think stanists made sacrifices to Satan. If they are animal sacrifices then that's not surprising. Still screwed up though.

AbiJayEchidna has made a cast iron point. Jesus was nailed to the cross. Sacrificing himself for our sins. But again, is that an exception purely because he was the son of God?

Satanists don't worship (or even believe in) Satan, and they certainly don't sacrifice animals let alone people). The Church of Satan is an atheist organization that draws its name from the Judeao-Islamic concept of Satan, however, "Satan" in their usage denotes a symbol and metaphor rather than a literal anthropomorphic deity. Satanists believe that every individual can be his or her own god and is responsible for his or her own destiny.

Emerald,

No, Jesus' sacrifice is not an exception. Many "Christian Hero's" were killed against their will while serving as missionaries, remember the parable of the vineyard?. Giving your life in service to God and losing it doing his work is personal sacrifice.

Anyways, everyone dies, it is how we live that is really important.

Jimro

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

That statement could be taken in two ways. If by "temporary problem," you are referring to the subject's mortality, then I agree with you. But if by "temporary problem" you mean that what drives a person to commit suicide is something that will pass quickly, so the subject should just tough it out, then that's generally false and, in my opinion, an insult to victims of suicide

Yes, victims. Suicide isn't about wanting to kill yourself. As it says on this excellent webpage, "Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain."

Craig,

The example I gave was intended to be a case where the man jumping in front of the train was unaware of the other man further down the track. While it is a somewhat outlandish example, the idea was to make the point about the difference between suicide and sacrifice being the intent on the part of the person dying than on the outcome of their death. However, I didn't make this particularly clear in the post, so apologies for being misleading.

Dirk,

The websight you linked is an excellent resource, but I disagree. Pain is temporary. Suicide IS a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Suicide is a choice, albeit a poor choice, unless you do not believe in free will, if you do not believe in free will, then nothing is a choice.

The alternatives to suicide are many, but getting help is the best one. If someone chooses to hide their pain from their friends and loved ones, and chooses to not get help, then they are eliminating their options until their only choice left is suicide.

Jimro

Noble suicide: By DDK

If a robot is programmed to destroy the world, but it gains morality sci-fi movie style and decides to blow itself up in case it's reprogrammed... Yeah.

But that raises the question. Would it even matter for robots?

Considering that the original topic had to deal with "sin" a Judaea/Christian concept, I think that robot "suicide" is a bit farfetched, but interesting.

For sin to have any affect, the "entity" must have a soul. Since robots don't have a soul, and aren't technically living (do not metabolize) then the concept of "Noble Suicide" does not apply.

However, to bring up Seppuku, or Hara Kari, which was/is considered an honorable death, brings into play a different moral base and cultural setting.

Jimro

I would have to agree that sacrifice and suicide are two different things.
Sacrifice IMO is a noble act, only if you are willing to give up your life for that person.
Human sacrifice, where you're forced to be sacrificed to some gods (which, God himself would not approve of ladies and gentlemen ) is bad, because then you're not really laying your life down to protect someone. Someone is killing you to appease a false God.
Finally, as Jimro said, Suicide is a perminate solution to a temporary problem. Suicide =/= Sacrifice. Suicide is where you take your own life, because you're depressed, hate the world, whatever the reason, and it's different than laying your life down for another person.
Christ himself laid his life down for our sins. We're supposed to follow his example.
Oh yeah, and I was already explained that the Church of Satan isn't really a group of Satan worshipers by a friend of mine in school, (they were called Satanists by the Catholic Church if I remember correctly, but then they decided to appease them and stick to that name...why I dunno and I don't care) but I am sure there are people who literally DO worship satan.

Considering that the original topic had to deal with "sin" a Judaea/Christian concept, I think that robot "suicide" is a bit farfetched, but interesting.
If we somehow manage to create an artificial life form that is capable of, among other things, consciously and purposefully ending its own life, theories as to the existence and/or nature of God would need to be greatly altered to remain relevant.

The concept of artificial life is interesting. If it's not alive it is not life? Therefore artificial life would only be an imitation of life.

Of course this whole subject has been rehashed by Hollywood many times. AI, Bicentenial Man, and DARYL come to mind.

The truth is (in complete defiance to Hollywood) that imitation can never be the real deal, no matter how emotionally appealing such an idea might be.

Jimro

Unless you go along with the whole japanese thing where the inanimate thing acquires a soul...but the only way I can see that being possible is through Demon posession.

Which brings up the question, "Do Demons have souls?" and "Does everything living have a soul?"

Clearly we can't answer the first question, and the second question can only be answered by supposition. If every living thing has a soul then anyone who eats bread is committing mass murder, just like anyone who takes antibiotics.

But since the bulk of humanity does not believe that microbes have souls, only people, then since demons are not people they most likely do not have souls. Of course this answer is based on cultural perception and relies highly on the dogma of the Catholic church to define soul, demon, etc.

As for aquirig a soul, where does it come from? Does the soul provide the animation to the inanimate object?

Lots of questions, no definate answers.

Jimro

Quote:

---

Which brings up the question, "Do Demons have souls?" and "Does everything living have a soul?"

Clearly we can't answer the first question, and the second question can only be answered by supposition. If every living thing has a soul then anyone who eats bread is committing mass murder, just like anyone who takes antibiotics.

---

No we can't answer the first question. However, it has always been my understand that demons themselves were spirits, and spirit/soul is pretty much the same thing. And we may not necessarily be commiting murder by eating bread even if plants do have souls. Their souls may be different than ours. I believe our soul gives us free will. Plants and animals lack the ability to make the kinds of choices that we make. Even demons HAVE to obey God. They can't just choose not to. We can choose not to believe God.

Quote:

---

But since the bulk of humanity does not believe that microbes have souls, only people, then since demons are not people they most likely do not have souls. Of course this answer is based on cultural perception and relies highly on the dogma of the Catholic church to define soul, demon, etc.

---

I think it's possible. I'm not part of the catholic church however, I'm part of the prodestant church you could say.
But here's another thing you can chew on. Is God a person? God isn't a human being. Does he have a soul?
Kind of an awkward question I realize though.
To be quite frank, I think the reason most people don't believe animals have souls is because of the practice of witch craft and the worship of animal spirits (even if wiccans don't necessarily do that). These "animal spirits" may actually be demonic spirits.
I think that because demons and angels are spiritual forms, that they themselves are souls. God is a soul as well. Eternal souls. I think animals have an eternal soul as well. What made us in the image of God is our free will, the ability to choose right from wrong. God gave us free will because he didn't want us to follow him mechanically like an angel or animal or demon would. Not to mention, angels have been in the presense of God. We havn't.
Well, y'know what I mean right? I think.
xx
Anyway, we're going off topic. Just throwing out somethings. Personally I think animals do have souls, but they don't have a choice like we do. They don't recongnize good or evil, and go straight to heaven since they can't be put at fault.
Another controversy that could bring up is babies and abortion, and if we're born into sin then are babies really innocent? Are we murdering or not? It's hard to say. We could be sending an eternal soul into hell and it wouldn't even be their fault. But because of the wages of sin, that's the price that's paid.
But who knows. Some people believe babies go straight to heaven if they die.
However, I disgress as I am pro choice.
But we won't get into that. Again, off topic.

Quote:

---

As for aquirig a soul, where does it come from? Does the soul provide the animation to the inanimate object?

---

I never said they did. The Japanese seem to translate that into their fictional manga stories and animes. I myself find it weird and awkward. I don't really see how it's possible. If a demon spirit possessed it that's the only thing I can think of.

Quote:

---

Lots of questions, no definate answers

---

Agreed.

Hell is real! Holy Crap!

I understand that it was not on perpose but when you say something thats saying Hell, damned etc can you refer the people to be Catholics not Christian because people who are Prostant dont belive in Hell.

You have just got to remember nobodys perfect

Quote:

---

because people who are Prostant dont belive in Hell.

---

Who told you that? o_O

I believe there's a hell and I'm a protestant. Oo Very odd connection, I'm with true red on this one, where'd you hear that? That's aweful strange. oo

ah..who would care religion is (dont think u can swear in this forum). sacrifice, suicide saw thing, if the world was to end and someone sacrifice there sealf to save humanity it would fail at that, its just comfort, just say someone did sacrifice themsealfs to save everyone, people might think oh nothing will happen we are saved but really no we would still perish. Its just the thought, movie makes make movies out of it and thats as far it would go.

...I've read that three times and have failed to extract meaning...

Are you implying that martyrism is a sham because people die anyway?

That's a really bleak outlook on life.

Yeah, I'm with Craig.
I didn't understand that, but I think this 'evil echidna' misunderstood the point of the topic.

maybe i did , didnt read all the messages on this message board . one more thing there is no hell because we are already in it.

But if we are already in hell, then hell must exist for us to be in it. Unless you are implying that we ourselves do not exist...

More seriously, life is what you make of it. If you believe it is hell, then it most likely will be for you...

I think you're reading a bit too much into his driv-- er, posts.

wot ever....i really need to get out more , but hell i hate my country . thats why its hell for me , but everyone to their own . no? tought i wouldnt say this but i wish i was in america, usa, or even better i wish i was in japan . man that would be great .

Cyc, not really. I think I pretty much picked up on exactly what he was saying in the last one...

Maybe you think I was giving it more credit than it deserved, but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt...

It's not that far fetched to believe we're already in hell. I have a friend who believes Earth is hell, and by doing good things now will reward you the ability to go to heaven. However, if you can't get into heaven you're just reincarnated back onto Earth until you make it into heaven perminately. oo
Though I suppose it's possible. I think hell exists in another dimention. Same with heaven. oo

CRAAAWWLING IN MY SKIIIIN!!!! THESE WOOUUNNDS THEY AAARREE..*slapped*

Sorry, had to. Anyone that has a bleak outlook on life will have a bleak life. If you think people are evil, you are evil. If you think you are religious, atheist, black, white, yellow, red, polka-dotted, male, female, gay, straight, depressed, happy, introverted, extroverted, sick, well, alive, dead, then thats what you are. It may take some surgery in some cases (*snicker*) but its pretty much the truth.

I also believe the more you condescend to people and tell them how bad they are, the worse you feel inside. And, of course, the worse you feel the worse you are.

Simply put. I believe in the power of willpower. The power of the mind. I think everyone has it in them, they just don't know how to find it.

I guess that relates to the topic in that if someone truely believe what they are doing is sacrifice for someone else then no merciful deity would send them to hell.

~Rico

oh.......thats how i hate everyone but i dont quite give a damn....really. i also hate myself too...its ok if i dont know u, if i dont know u i will like u but if u hurt me i will hate u.