So... you're arguing that your books about an invisible being of absolute power are better because they were written first?
No, what I'm saying is (unless I read Cham's post wrong) is that the Qur'an can't really claim to be correcting the original accounts if it came out so much later than the Gospels; if anything, its account of Jesus would be more suspect than that of the Gospels.
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No, what I'm saying is (unless I read Cham's post wrong) is that the Qur'an can't really claim to be correcting the original accounts if it came out so much later than the Gospels; if anything, its account of Jesus would be more suspect than that of the Gospels.
Apparently you did... either way, I don't see your logic here.
What I said was
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According to Islam, later prophets were needed to set people back on the "true path" towards God and to correct mistakes and mistellings that came about over time concerning old scripture and the like.
The fact that one was written earlier has absolutely no bearing on this.
Ever hear the joke in which it's realised that a spelling error was made concerning the duties of priests - that it was meant to read "celebrate"?
Same idea. It's the concept that, since the time such scripture was written (despite the original source being divine) things were altered through misinterpretation, mistranslation, other human error, or, sad as it is, to manipulate others. This certainly does happen on a small scale (for instance, people changing "unbeliever" in the Qu'ran to "Christian", or "sinner" in the Bible to "blacks" - interpreting it one way, and then passing it as accurate in order to support one's own belief).
Islam claims that, over time, such inaccuracies arose. Whether that's your belief or not is irrelevent, as the point was that, from a Muslim perspective, there is no contradiction.
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the Qur'an can't really claim to be correcting the original accounts if it came out so much later than the Gospels
Why not, if it too is supposed to be divinely inspired? How on earth does the time make a difference?
And thank you, but I'm quite aware of when Islam rose and when the Gospels were written.
Crazy,
You are spouting nearly word for word the arguments in the Koran that "the people of the book polluted God's word". Which is just one of the reasons why Christians and Jews must be subjugated, as "dhimmis".
www.jpost.com/servlet/Sat...2FShowFull
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Individual Islamists may appear law-abiding and reasonable, but they are part of a totalitarian movement, and as such, all must be considered potential killers.
I wrote those words days after 9/11 and have been criticized for them ever since. But an incident on March 3 at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill suggests I did not go far enough.
Of course you can always bury your head in the sand, after all, such may be the "will of Allah".
Jimro
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So... you're arguing that your books about an invisible being of absolute power are better because they were written first?
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No, what I'm saying is ... if anything, its account of Jesus would be more suspect than that of the Gospels.
I'm glad we agree. 
You say it happened one way, the baptists say it happened that way but not quite, the arabs say it didn't happen that way, and mormon's just don't give a crap about foreign stuff.
You all have just as much right to believe what you believe but you have no right not start talking about what's "suspect" to be false when you ALL sound like lunatics to imperical people.
Been away for a while due to needing to get work done, but I thought this might want ot be pointed out:
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The only problem is, if you want to kill unbelievers and you read the Koran....
How about if you want to kill unbelievers and you read the Bible? While the Koran may be more explicit, it does not change the fact that there's plenty in the Bible which can encourage crusades, and so forth.
In general, religion may be the excuse, and some people may actively believe it is the true reason, but the real reasons are inevitably economic or political. For all the anti-Islamic spouting going on, have any of you forgotten the story of Malcolm X? Try taking a look at his message when he came back from Mecca, after having been exposed to what is considered the true Islam, rather than various versions based around more extreme, fundamentalist teachings. Or maybe everyone's forgotten the fun of the South African Church endorsing Apartheid, even though the rest of the Christian world viewed The Apartheid as wrong.
I'm just saying...
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You are spouting nearly word for word the arguments in the Koran that "the people of the book polluted God's word". Which is just one of the reasons why Christians and Jews must be subjugated, as "dhimmis
Gee, really? You think so?
Of course that's what I'm saying. That's what the general belief is - if you read my posts you'd see the part where I said it was a belief and a means of justification according to Islam. Never did I say it's right or that I support it - I'm simply stating a fact.
Quit jumping the gun with the condensending attitude.
How about if you want to kill unbelievers and you read the Bible? While the Koran may be more explicit, it does not change the fact that there's plenty in the Bible which can encourage crusades, and so forth.
In general, religion may be the excuse, and some people may actively believe it is the true reason, but the real reasons are inevitably economic or political. For all the anti-Islamic spouting going on, have any of you forgotten the story of Malcolm X? Try taking a look at his message when he came back from Mecca, after having been exposed to what is considered the true Islam, rather than various versions based around more extreme, fundamentalist teachings. Or maybe everyone's forgotten the fun of the South African Church endorsing Apartheid, even though the rest of the Christian world viewed The Apartheid as wrong.
No, Islamic fundamentalists want to kill unbelievers because it is the "will of Allah" not for economic reasons. A UNC graduate decides to mow down 9 people with his Jeep because of what? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't economics.
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Quit jumping the gun with the condensending attitude.
Oh Mr. Kettle, this is Mr. Pot speaking, I have some alarming news about your color...
Jimro
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Oh Mr. Kettle, this is Mr. Pot speaking, I have some alarming news about your color...
You reap what you sow. I state a fact about something, and you reply that I'm "spouting" things and then... provide stuff that backs up my point (before, of course, making another negative accusation about my character). Considering that nothing I said was in direct response to any of your comments, never mind that I never said anything to you directly, never mind that what you replied with didn't even offer a different point of view, your rude comments came out of left field, so it's assinine for you to be complaining when I reply to your behaviour in kind. Or is "spouting" supposed to be taken in a positive light?
Also, I'm a girl.
Crazy,
Are you finished with your rant?
Jimro
Do you really need to ask?
It's nice to see you can hold up your end of a debate without resorting to snide insults.
All right then.
Let's consider that Islam considers itself completely correct and that Christianity considers itself completely correct and that Judaism considers itself completely correct. I'm not going to get into an argument of faith except to say that arguing faith who has the "right" faith is silly.
The Tanach (old testament) applies to Jews by bloodline, only in the Talmud are their procedures for someone to "convert" to Judaism. Strict interpretation, NO CONVERTS.
The New Testament applies to anyone who enters into the covenant of salvation, and the command is given to spread the good news that all can be saved. Specific passages are in the new testament about how to spot a false prophet and antichrist. Strict interpretation, SPREAD THE WORD AND LET PEOPLE HEAR.
The Koran applies to Muslims, and the command was given them to conquer and convert unbelievers by the sword if need be. The specific passages in the Koran, Hadith, etc that set up "dhimmi's" or second class citizens out of Jews and Christians under Muslim rule. One law in the UAE was that a Jewish widow could not keep her children, they must be taken from her and placed in a "good Muslim home". Strict interpretation, KILL FOR YOUR FAITH.
Now there is plenty of justification in the Koran as to WHY good muslims must fight, that the "people of the book corrupted God's word" and "the polytheists (christians) are idolaters".
Now, sharia law is based on the Koran, Hadith, etc.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law
www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/mis...h1sec2.htm
Part of sharia law is that those who make fun of the prophet are killed.
This is why the cartoonist who drew Mohammed with a bomb for a turban was threatened to be, bombed. Oh the irony.
And don't bother critizing the Koran, that can also be considered criticizing the prophet and therefore worthy of death.
And if you are a muslim who converts to Christianity, death.
If you are a Christian missionary trying to spread the Gospel, death.
Do I paint a clear enough picture here?
Muslims have been commanded to conquer and turn the entire world into "Dar al Islam" (land of peace) under Islamic rule. If a land is not "Dar al Islam" it is "Dar al Harb" or (battlefield).
This is why wiping Israel off the map is such a huge issue to Muslims, because Israel was once "Dar al Islam" and is now "Dar al Harb", and Allah has promised that Muslims would be victorious on the field of battle. This is why there will never be peace with Islam. How can there be peace with a people who have a divine command to fight?
Heck, if enough people read this post I'm sure some cleric somewhere could offer a bounty for my head. Or I could just end up like Theo Van Gogh, shot eight times, throat slit, with two knives pinning a five page threat to my chest.
Jimro
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No, Islamic fundamentalists want to kill unbelievers because it is the "will of Allah" not for economic reasons. A UNC graduate decides to mow down 9 people with his Jeep because of what? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't economics.
Yes, some people are just generally unpleasant. Big news. Same applies in Christianity. The way I see it, there are two versions of Islam - one where it preaches submission and peace, which is generally held by the majority of muslims. Then there's the extremist version which preaches violence and war, which unsurprisingly appeals to certain types of people, but is, AFAIK, a minority view.
Over in Northern Ireland, plenty of people were, and probably still are, happy to kill their neighbours because they have different views on what the "true" version of Christianity is. I'm not an expert on the topic, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them thought they were fulfilling the will of God in killing the "heathens". I'll grant you, Islam may provide people with a simpler incentive towards violence than Christianity, or other religions, but that does not mean that violence is inherent to the religion itself. A lot of the violence comes from people who wish to be violent, and see this religion as an excuse to do so.
OK, I'm not an expert on Islam, but the whole claim that "Islam is a religion that promotes violence" doesn't ring true with what I do know about Islam.
Play nice, Jimmy. Don't make me put you in the corner. 
Trim,
Rico told me to be nice, so I am going to try.
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Over in Northern Ireland, plenty of people were, and probably still are, happy to kill their neighbours because they have different views on what the "true" version of Christianity is. I'm not an expert on the topic, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them thought they were fulfilling the will of God in killing the "heathens". I'll grant you, Islam may provide people with a simpler incentive towards violence than Christianity, or other religions, but that does not mean that violence is inherent to the religion itself. A lot of the violence comes from people who wish to be violent, and see this religion as an excuse to do so.
Ok, so you admit that you are "not an expert", but that should at least make you "familiar" with the subject. Unfortunately you think that the conflict in Northern Ireland is religious in nature, so it seems that you aren't "familiar" with the subject matter at all.
Here is a good start to educate yourself. I normally try to avoid wikipedia as a primary source, so you are more than welcome to point out better sources for the conflict in North Ireland as you find them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_Fein
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iri...lican_Army
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iri...22-1969%29
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off...lican_Army
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro...lican_Army
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Con...lican_Army
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rea...lican_Army
In the American Civil war we had Christians Northern soldiers fighting and killing Christian Confederate soldiers. It was not about religion, it really wasn't about slavery, it was economic and political in nature. Same with North Ireland.
The Irish have a history of political and economic oppression at the hands of the British, and despite the copius consumption of Guiness and Tyrconnel the Irish have long memories.
You'll see throughout history in various countries that Christians have been willing to fight, kill, and die, for political independence. USA, Ireland, Franch underground in WWII, Finland fought to keep their political sovereignty (the Winter War and Continuation War en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War)
My point is this, political goals in armed conflict are an accepted part of western culture, whether we are arming the mujahadeen in Afganistan to keep their independence from the USSR or telling the British to sod off because we believe all men are created equal. What is not an accepted part of western culture is "killing for your faith" to convert others to a totalitarian religion. We believe in fighting for freedom, they believe in killing for oppression.
Rico,
Did I play nice enough?
Jimro
Only if you admit you're not an expert either.
I'm not half as informed as your average Irish citizen, that's for dang sure. So by no means am I an "expert".
My interest in North Ireland just happens to coincide with my passion for military history, which is why I am familiar with the issues.
History is such a wonderful subject. If you pay attention you can avoid the pitfalls of the past.
Jimro
There ya go. See, I'm half Irish and I don't know much about it at all. o.o
Speaking of the Irish, did anyone have corned beef yesterday?
Nah, curry chicken.
However I did take a couple to the range, and one of them wanted to shoot a "reactive" target so I let him shoot a gallon milk jug filled with water at 100 yards with one of my "sniper" rifles.
It made a most impressive splash 
Trav, the shooter, found out that it is a LOT harder to "snipe" in real life with a 12 lb rifle and it's darn near impossible to keep a tight group without a support for the rifle. It is much easier to "snipe" using a mouse playing "1942"
What that had to do with St. Patty's day? The rifle he used is camoflauged OD green
What a way to celebrate.
Jimro
Nah, curry chicken.
You too? Honestly, what did the British do before they discovered India?
Have tea and crumpets?
But this is exactly what I'm talking about -- they hadn't even heard of tea until they stole a bunch from India and assimilated it into their culture.
Perhaps they could've asked the Scottish for some haggis instead.
Scottish are Brittish. 😉
Just think of it logically, take away the spices and we just have chicken, take away the tea leaves and sugar and we had scolding hot water and sour biscuits. 😛
Scotland has never been conquered militarily. Rebellions have been quelled, but things haven't escalated to all out civil war, yet.
Oh yeah, and tell a Scotsman that he's a limey and see how HE responds 😛
I guess if I didn't have access to Indian, Thai, Japanese, and Chinese curry I'd just have to eat more Italian dishes.
Sure beats traditional Irish "boil everything" cuisine.
Jimro
Still part of Britain.
And tell any Brit he's a limey and see how he responds, there's not a great liking for America over here for some odd reason....<.<.....maybe calling us limies started it :P.
Nothing but a good natured ribbing from us "Yanks". I think "Limey" for a Brit, referring to Her Majesty's Naval forces, as opposed to "Frog" for Frenchmen, referring to what? I do not know.
Of course if the Scots had a choice... But that's a whole 'nother thread.
Jimro
This is pretty good reading.
Because They Hate
By Brigitte Gabriel
[Editor's Note: Below are selected excerpts from Brigitte Gabriel's speech delivered at the Intelligence Summit in Washington DC, Saturday February 18, 2006].
Tolerating evil is a crime. Appeasing murderers doesn't buy protection. It earns one disrespect and loathing in the enemy's eyes. Yet apathy is the weapon by which the West is committing suicide. Political correctness forms the shackles around our ankles, by which Islamists are leading us to our demise
We gather here today to share information and knowledge. Intelligence is not merely cold hard data about numerical strength or armament or disposition of military forces. The most important element of intelligence has to be understanding the mindset and intention of the enemy. The West has been wallowing in a state of ignorance and denial for thirty years as Muslim extremist perpetrated evil against innocent victims in the name of Allah.
I was ten years old when my home exploded around me, burying me under the rubble and leaving me to drink my blood to survive, as the perpetrators shouted "Allah Akbar!" My only crime was that I! was a Christian living in a Christian town. At 10 years old, I learned the meaning of the word "infidel."
I had a crash course in survival. Not in the Girl Scouts, but in a bomb shelter where I lived for seven years in pitch darkness, freezing cold, drinking stale water and eating grass to live. At the age of 13 I dressed in my burial clothes going to bed at night, waiting to be slaughtered. By the age of 20, I had buried most of my friends--killed by Muslims. We were not Americans living in New York, or Britons in London We were Arab Christians living in Lebanon.
As a victim of Islamic terror, I was amazed when I saw Americans waking up on September 12, 2001, and asking themselves "Why do they hate us?" The psychoanalyst experts were coming up with all sort of excuses as to what did we do to offend the Muslim World. But if America and the West were paying attention to the Middle East they would not have had to ask the question. Simply put, they hate us because we are defined in their eyes by one simple word: "infidels."
Under the banner of Islam "la, ilaha illa allah, muhammad rasoulu allah," (None is god except Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah) they murdered Jewish children in Israel, massacred Christians in Lebanon, killed Copts in Egypt, Assyrians in Syria, Hindus in India, and expelled almost 900,000 Jews from Muslim lands. We Middle Eastern infidels paid the price then. Now infidels worldwide are paying the price for indifference and shortsightedness.
Tolerating evil is a crime. Appeasing murderers doesn't buy protection. It earns one disrespect and loathing in the enemy's eyes. Yet apathy is the weapon by which the West is committing suicide. Political correctness forms the shackles around our ankles, by which Islamists are leading us to our demise.
America and the West are doomed to failure in this war unless they stand up and identify the real enemy: Islam. You hear about Wahabbi and Salafi Islam as the only extreme form of Islam. All the other Muslims, supposedly, are wonderful moderates. Closer to the truth are the pictures of the irrational eruption of violence in reaction to the cartoons of Mohammed printed by a Danish newspaper. From burning embassies, to calls to butcher those who mock Islam, to warnings that the West be prepared for another holocaust, those pictures have given us a glimpse into the real face of the enemy. News pictures and video of these events represent a canvas of hate decorated by different nationalities who share one common ideology of hate, bigotry and intolerance derived from one source: authentic Islam. An Islam that is awakening from centuries of slumber to re-ignite its wrath against the infidel and dominate the world. An Islam which has declared "Intifada" on the West.
America and the West can no longer afford to lay in their lazy state of overweight ignorance. The consequences of this mental disease are starting to attack the body, and if they don't take the necessary steps now to control it, death will be knocking soon. If you want to understand the nature of the enemy we face, visualize a tapestry of snakes. They slither and they hiss, and they would eat each other alive, but they will unite in a hideous mass to achieve their common goal of imposing Islam on the world.
This is the ugly face of the enemy we are fighting. We are fighting a powerful ideology that is capable of altering basic human instincts. An ideology that can turn a mother into a launching pad of death. A perfect example is a recently elected Hamas official in the Palestinian Territories who raves in heavenly joy about sending her three sons to death and offering the ones who are still alive for the cause. It is an ideology that is capable of offering highly educated individuals such as doctors and lawyers far more joy in attaining death than any respect and stature, life in society is ever capable of giving them.
The United States has been a prime target for radical Islamic hatred and terror. Every Friday, mosques in the Middle East ring with shrill prayers and monotonous chants calling death, destruction and damnation down on America and its people. The radical Islamists deeds have been as vile as their words. Since the Iran hostage crisis, more than three thousand Americans have died in a terror campaign almost unprecedented in its calculated cruelty along with thousands of other citizens worldwide. Even the Nazis did not turn their own children into human bombs, and then rejoice at their deaths as well the deaths of their victims. This intentional, indiscriminate and wholesale murder of innocent American citizens is justified and glorified in the name of Islam.
America cannot effectively defend itself in this war unless and until the American people understand the nature of the enemy that we face. Even after 9/11 there are those who say that we must engage our terrorist enemies, that we must address their grievances. Their grievance is our freedom of religion. Their grievance is our freedom of speech. Their grievance is our democratic process where the rule of law comes from the voices of many not that of just one prophet. It is the respect we instill in our children towards all religions. It is the equality we grant each other as human beings sharing a planet and striving to make the world a better place for all humanity. Their grievance is the kindness and respect a man shows a woman, the justice we practice as equals under the law, and the mercy we grant our enemy. Their grievance cannot be answered by an apology for who or what we are.
Our mediocre attitude of not confronting Islamic forces of bigotry and hatred wherever they raised their ugly head in the last 30 years, has empowered and strengthened our enemy to launch a full scale attack on the very freedoms we cherish in their effort to impose their values and way of life on our civilization.
If we don't wake up and challenge our Muslim community to take action against the terrorists within it, if we don't believe in ourselves as Americans and in the standards we should hold every patriotic American to, we are going to pay a price for our delusion. For the sake of our children and our country, we must wake up and take action. In the face of a torrent of hateful invective and terrorist murder, America's learning curve since the Iran hostage crisis is so shallow that it is almost flat. The longer we lay supine, the more difficult it will be to stand erect.
######
Jimro
Apologies for lack of reply earlier - been offline for a bit.
Jimro, fair point on the Northern Ireland issue. However, religion has still been used as an excuse for some of the actions, even though socio-economic and political motives are the stronger forces. However, I think we've both made our points, so I'll cease attempting to flog a dead horse.
No problem.
The funny thing about Islamic terror is that there are no economic justifications. The "political" justifications always lead back to sharia law so that they are religious in nature. Since the muslim world is so different from the west they see no seperation between church and state, and those that do see a difference are threatened with death.
Go figure.
Jimro
MALAYSIA'S de facto law minister has threatened to jail or fine non-Muslims who insult Islam, amid concern over recent articles perceived as attacking the religion.
Mohamad Nazri Abdul Aziz said the country's sedition act could be used on non-Muslims who make comments construed as belittling Islam.
"We will not think twice about using this law against anybody who incites," Mohamad Nazri, a minister in the prime minister's department, was quoted as saying in the Star newspaper today.
The minister said he was concerned over recent articles written about Islam by non-Muslims, and warned there was a limit to what could be said in the Muslim-majority country.
"I want to remind non-Muslims to refrain from making statements on something they do not understand," he said.
"We do not want to take away your rights but religion is an important matter, especially to the Muslims."
full article at
www.news.com.au/story/0,1...09,00.html
Jimro
that has reprints of the cartoons, citing "security concerns"
"For us, the safety and security of our customers and employees is a top priority, and we believe that carrying this issue could challenge that priority," Borders Group Inc. spokeswoman Beth Bingham said Wednesday.
Is that politically correct speak for "we don't want a case of 'instant jihad' to cause us property damage and loss of life?"
