That surgery seems pretty justified to me.

^^ *all I have to say on this*

yuuuuuup @ Velotix

I too agree with Velotix.

Seriously? Sure, her ears stick out a little bit but I'd have to agree with Mada on this one. Besides we're different and we all have flaws, thats what makes us human and unique.

Still, at least she didn't get them done to be like elf ears which I hear is becoming a rage.

0___0 someone agrees with me

 
oooooh pach man be careful

Falling for me?

Already?

Can't say I blame you!

i say it again "be careful"
if you get me to like you i'll stick to you, annoy you, stalk you and demand full attention, so you'll have to care for me, groom me and feed me.. cause i'm a hard pet to take care of.

I think she looked cute the way she was originally. And as Mada said, there is a fundamental problem with throwing money around to solve a problem that doesn't originate with the girl, but with the bullies themselves. How does this teach the bullies that bullying is wrong and that they should treat all humans with respect regardless of how they look? How does this teach the girl to solve problems?

Sure, it'll be easier for her later in life when appearance becomes even more critical to social interactions, so in a way it's spending money now to avoid therapy later. And if the kid is happy with the way she is now? More power to her. I just hope that it doesn't end up becoming a problem later when her body grows and changes.

Whilst I recognise the rather blunt analogy, changing the shape of your ears isn't exactly going to affect your personality any, is it now? 😛

Whilst I recognise the rather blunt analogy, changing the shape of your ears isn't exactly going to affect your personality any, is it now? 😛

It still ignores the fact that the ones at fault are somehow left out of the equation.

Girl has bigger ears than normal.
Bullies pick on her.

So instead of the bullies being reprimanded, she feels compelled to physically alter herself? What kind of lesson does that teach you?

"My face isn't narrow enough to get the guys. Plastic surgery!"
"My nose is so unsightly. Plastic surgery!"
"This feature is unlikeable for (insert reason here). PLASTIC SURGERY!"

It's one thing to exhibit self-control, alter your personal behavior, or change aspects of your appearance for a professional environment or something along those lines.

It's another thing entirely to do so simply because of the derision of fools.

(Did they even try to reprimand the bullies responsible?)

Whilst I recognise the rather blunt analogy, changing the shape of your ears isn't exactly going to affect your personality any, is it now? 😛

It still ignores the fact that the ones at fault are somehow left out of the equation.

Girl has bigger ears than normal.
Bullies pick on her.

So instead of the bullies being reprimanded, she feels compelled to physically alter herself? What kind of lesson does that teach you?

"My face isn't narrow enough to get the guys. Plastic surgery!"
"My nose is so unsightly. Plastic surgery!"
"This feature is unlikeable for (insert reason here). PLASTIC SURGERY!"

It's one thing to exhibit self-control, alter your personal behavior, or change aspects of your appearance for a professional environment or something along those lines.

It's another thing entirely to do so simply because of the derision of fools.

(Did they even try to reprimand the bullies responsible?)

How often do schools reprimand bullies? Basically never.

you know who this topic reminds me of? paris hilton. she's one of those super stars (one of many) that didnt get a nose job she looks pretty and we can all remember her face cause she has a signature nose.

its a fact that people that stand out turn out successful in life. that girl's ears could be a blessing it might have changed her destiny to get it fixed. what ultra said is right too the reasons she got her ears fixed are weak. her weak mom did her little girl wrong, cause i know girl bullying i was the prettiest one in my school and i got bullied. you can have no problem at all and they'll bully you. what will her mom do to her then?

god bless my mom she'd never ever tell me i have a flaw. i'd die inside if my mom the one person on earth i should always trust thought i had a flaw. everyone else can say what they want. i feel strong that i know my mom thinks i'm perfect

I'd rather my mother was honest - mine spent my primary school years trying to make me as obese as her and telling me that I looked fine (actually encouraging me to eat entire six-pavks of crisps in one day, for example - and also encouraging me to think that was normal), because she didn't want to admit that she had a weight problem. Had she actually been honest and dealt with my weight, it would've saved a lot of aggravation and distress in the long run.

That said, though - it's all about the bullies needing to belittle someone to make themselves feel bigger, not the victim. If someone wants to bully you, they'll find something to pick at - and if you change that, they'll find something else. It could be your hair, the way you wear your clothes, your eyes... If they really want to, they'll find something.

And all this did was make her even more different from her peers than they thought she was already, by giving something they can actually use as a hook, rather than have to look for and invent (like her perfectly normal ears).

If I was a betting woman, I'd put money on this kid now being bullied as "that weird kid who thought it was okay to have the plastic surgery" or "that weird kid who's really so ugly that they had to have plastic surgery". The bullies've even been handed, on a plater, the ultimate put-down:

"There's that kid whose own mother thought she was so ugly that she had to give her plastic surgery."

Parent of the Year candidate, I don't think!

If I was a betting woman, I'd put money on this kid now being bullied as "that weird kid who thought it was okay to have the plastic surgery" or "that weird kid who's really so ugly that they had to have plastic surgery". The bullies've even been handed, on a plater, the ultimate put-down:

"There's that kid whose own mother thought she was so ugly that she had to give her plastic surgery."

Parent of the Year candidate, I don't think!

Meh, it's not like the parents of the other kids are much better, raising the kind of children who would pick on someone for something she can't help like ear shape.

Then again, in practice, parenting can only do so much. This is why we need a better sense of justice in schools; if we were to actually PUNISH bullying, we could make children into better people than they would be otherwise, leading in turn to a generation of adults who would be better people than they would be otherwise. People talk about childhood being the time to encourage better behaviour, start with the way bullying is handled in schools.

To be fair, though, I guess whether a form of bullying could be reasonably punished depends on what kind of bullying it was. Something like exclusion (which I resent seeing labelled bullying) probably couldn't reasonably be punished, something like physical bullying ought to be punished, and something like verbal bullying is more of a moral grey area. Then there is stuff like falsely making it look like another student did something, to get said student in trouble for it, etc... the problem is the poor sense of justice in schools and poor judgement of teachers. (For what it's worth, mine seemed to have good judgement, but I've read too many anecdotes about cases that clearly show the teachers did not know what they were doing.) IF that could be fixed, though, that would help, and especially strong punishment for the last category would help make other cases easier to determine.

As for the plastic surgery, as Tergonaut pointed out, avoiding bullying would not be the only advantage to it. The worst aspect of it, of course, is that they were giving in to the bullying. (As for Mada's sidenote about cuteness, it's obviously subjective, and even if it does make her less cute, it might even be possible that something might come up that may make that an advantage. Imagine one of the bullies saying something like "I miss your earlier look." Nothing would be a more perfect response to that than "you should have thought of that before picking on me for it.")

Imagine one of the bullies saying something like "I miss your earlier look." Nothing would be a more perfect response to that than "you should have thought of that before picking on me for it.")

I don't think my imagination is strong enough to picture that scenario. If someone was likely to say something like "I liked how you looked before", they wouldn't have been bullying her in the first place. Now, something like "I preferred it when you looked like Dumbo, now you just look like [insert insult here]", *that* I could imagine... But it's still nowhere near as good as Sam's offering, which I need no imagination at all to picture...

Bullying is a tricky issue - but I don't think schools should have all the responsibility for dealing with it. A problem we appear to have in some areas in this country is that the parents have given up parenting and let the school be in locum parentis for 24/7. So schools have to teach children manners, how to use cutlery, how to interact socially, how not to bully, all the while trying to drum some sort of an education into the kids' heads. What we can do about it (bar making people pass a test before they're allowed to breed 😉 ), who knows?

DW

"If someone was likely to say something like "I liked how you looked before", they wouldn't have been bullying her in the first place." - darkwinguk

Well, I already said "might even be possible" instead of "likely."

That said, your assumption is questionable, at best. What if the bullies picked on her because they deep down envied her? Such things are often said of those who look down on "nerds" and might carry over to other (possible) subjects of hidden envy.

Though I guess it was just wishful thinking on my part, partly because of the appeal of imagining people who tried to hide their envy of the person they were picking on suddenly expressing it and getting a "too late" in response.

"A problem we appear to have in some areas in this country is that the parents have given up parenting and let the school be in locum parentis for 24/7. So schools have to teach children manners, how to use cutlery, how to interact socially, how not to bully, all the while trying to drum some sort of an education into the kids' heads." - darkwinguk

Well, of the various things schools are expected to do, aside from the obvious part that is teaching them, I would say confronting bullying should be their next-highest priority. Teach them useful knowledge, but also teach them good behaviour by reinforcing good behaviour and punishing the bad.

Stuff like manners and social interaction are more of a grey area though (I have views on those subjects quite different from apparent popular opinion) so I am not all that fond of schools being relied on for that.

"What we can do about it (bar making people pass a test before they're allowed to breed ), who knows?" - darkwinguk

Or before they are allowed to keep their children. Restrictions on breeding are considered exceedingly authoritarian, as is evident from the controversy over stuff like the one-child policy, whereas taking kids away from parents deemed unfit to raise children seems (relatively) more popular. I guess that is more of a sidenote than anything though. o.o

In any case, even that could only do so much. Unless bad parenting is to blame for all bullying (which I doubt) this implies that good parenting alone is not enough to deter it. So either way, there is still more the schools need to do about it.

Bullying is part of school unfortunately. It's a social class for school age kids. I'm not sure how you "end" a social class short of genocide though. I'd have to say the silver-lining to the "Bully Cloud" is that it creates the white and black knights. By that I mean the people that stop the bullies via taking the punishment either for themselves or for the bullied kids and showing that they don't care via no reaction or pure escalation to counter bullying. I'm not sure either is the right response, personally I tired both and various times and incidents.

To the original point? They wasted money as any ex-bullied person can tell you they'll just find something else to pick on her about.

Bullying is part of school unfortunately. It's a social class for school age kids. I'm not sure how you "end" a social class short of genocide though. I'd have to say the silver-lining to the "Bully Cloud" is that it creates the white and black knights. By that I mean the people that stop the bullies via taking the punishment either for themselves or for the bullied kids and showing that they don't care via no reaction or pure escalation to counter bullying. I'm not sure either is the right response, personally I tired both and various times and incidents.

To the original point? They wasted money as any ex-bullied person can tell you they'll just find something else to pick on her about.

~Tobico

By rooting out and actually punishing the ones doing the bullying?

EDIT: And I mean probably with harsher punishments than they use now.

To the original point? They wasted money as any ex-bullied person can tell you they'll just find something else to pick on her about.

ummm i dont know i think you forgot bullying at home too, its not just the schools... not to mention when we get to our adult stage people dont get all nice all of the sudden we deal with jerks now too.
if anything we're seeing more of it. cause now there's youtube, a site i cant get enough of but i know hurts a lot of people. like in tyra's episode they talked to kids that got bullied from youtube.

the best thing is to punish the bullies in schools maybe make a new law even. i'm tired of people being so mean to one another. i know there's a law against physical harm but what about emotions arent they even worse?

To the original point? They wasted money as any ex-bullied person can tell you they'll just find something else to pick on her about.

ummm i dont know i think you forgot bullying at home too, its not just the schools... not to mention when we get to our adult stage people dont get all nice all of the sudden we deal with jerks now too.
if anything we're seeing more of it. cause now there's youtube, a site i cant get enough of but i know hurts a lot of people. like in tyra's episode they talked to kids that got bullied from youtube.

the best thing is to punish the bullies in schools maybe make a new law even. i'm tired of people being so mean to one another. i know there's a law against physical harm but what about emotions arent they even worse?

That sort of raises the dilemma as to how far you can go in protecting from emotional bullying, though. For adult life the standard seems to be that free speech and freedom of association are rights even if people misuse them just to hurt the feelings of others, and if someone retaliates with violence that is their problem. Sure, children aren't expected to have the same level of rights as adults, but the question comes in how appropriate it is to teach them that the authorities will protect them from getting their feelings hurt.

At the very least, we should focus on confronting the less-ambiguous forms of bullying, (not just physical either, but falsely incriminating other students is something that needs to be urgently confronted) for if we were to identify and more seriously punish this kinds of stuff, this would give bullies more incentive to become better people, in turn probably reducing emotional bullying in the process.

there's also another issue... i mean that girl's ears were different than normal its a fact. not that i'm saying its bad but sometimes i think some kids dont understand the difference between "facts" and "insults". i dont think its wrong to state a fact even if its something we didnt want to know just more of an unappreciated truth.

for example if you told someone their breath stinked, it'll hurt thier feelings but its good someone told them so they can change it.

for example if you told someone their breath stinked, it'll hurt thier feelings but its good someone told them so they can change it.

And that's where choice of language comes in. Taking someone to one side and quietly asking them whether they are aware that they appear to have a problem with bad breath is one thing. Telling them in the middle of the playground "Boy, your breath stinks!" is not constructive.

DW

I am the terror that flaps in the night. I am the substantial and inescapable penalty for early withdrawal. I am Darkwing Duck!

ah right well you're absouletly correct in that. still kids dont have that at a young age. they think any honesty is good even blunt ones so how to teach them better?

XD this reminds me of a time one kid asked me if i drink blood and i was "what?!!" and he said my teeth were red, i checked my mirror and noticed my lipstick got on my teeth... it was so embarrassing and funny at the same time. the way he said it was just so bad.

sonicsfan1991 wrote:

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ah right well you're absouletly correct in that. still kids dont have that at a young age. they think any honesty is good even blunt ones so how to teach them better?

XD this reminds me of a time one kid asked me if i drink blood and i was "what?!!" and he said my teeth were red, i checked my mirror and noticed my lipstick got on my teeth... it was so embarrassing and funny at the same time. the way he said it was just so bad.

Aww... well, a kid (or at least a male kid) will probably have heard more about vampires than about lipstick, and depending on how young would not realize they aren't real, so I wouldn't blame him for getting that impression. Besides, it's not like even calling someone a vampire (let alone asking if they are one) is necessarily insulting; vampires aren't always evil, after all.

You hear that sweetie? If theirs anything you don't like about your body, We can change it FOR MONEY!!! LETS GET HER HOOKED EARLY SO ALL HER LIFE SHE IS MODIFYING HERSELF AND DEVELOPS THE BELIEF ANYTHING CAN BE FIXED,CHANGE OR MODIFIED WITH MONEY!!
LESSON !@#$ING LEARNED RIGHT PEOPLE?!

I approve of plastic surgery, but only for the ugliest of babies.

Where would you draw the line, then? @ Zingela

I think she's being sarcastic, Matt.

Super Rayzor wrote:

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I think she's being sarcastic, Matt.

Well, that's Poe's Law for you. o.o

i think her parents are very wrong,the little girl's ears looked
normal and fine to me and the one that has a cute fold in it made her
look like a bunny.

Only on a forum full of furries could this be seen as an endearing reason to not get plastic surgery.

i think her parents are very wrong,the little girl's ears looked normal and fine to me and the one that has a cute fold in it made her look like a bunny.

Only on a forum full of furries could this be seen as an endearing reason to not get plastic surgery.

Or a forum full of posting members of any sort including one person who made a reference to a kid being cute that is unrelated to furries in any way.

Moral of the story, If someone doesn't like something about you. You change for them!

"Change for them" nothing, at least if it were something that someone had good reason not to like, and if that someone was a good enough person to presumably deserve seeing someone change it for them, that might in theory be justified.

This, on the other hand, was someone giving in to those who clearly did not deserve to be rewarded, for the sake of avoiding something that one might actually be encouraging by doing so.

Veckums wrote:

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Very Crazy Penguin wrote:

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i think her parents are very wrong,the little girl's ears looked normal and fine to me and the one that has a cute fold in it made her look like a bunny.

Only on a forum full of furries could this be seen as an endearing reason to not get plastic surgery.

Or a forum full of posting members of any sort including one person who made a reference to a kid being cute that is unrelated to furries in any way.

you know when my teeth (fangs) were sticking out my family never made jokes about me but called me cute as a kitten. and in anime they'd draw smiling girls with fangs sticking out so i was happy with them, and i loved myself even when some kids tried teasing they stopped right after they noticed how strong and confiedent i was about my teeth. that changed them not me. so i think the moral is "your beautiful if you believe you are" if only her family was as supportive as mine was that girl wont have changed her ears.

and i really think that messed up her future. cause who knows what type of love she would've found because of them XD its strange but we are attracted to each other by what's unique in us (which we call flaws).

sonicsfan1991 wrote:

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Veckums wrote:

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Very Crazy Penguin wrote:

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Only on a forum full of furries could this be seen as an endearing reason to not get plastic surgery.

Or a forum full of posting members of any sort including one person who made a reference to a kid being cute that is unrelated to furries in any way.

you know when my teeth (fangs) were sticking out my family never made jokes about me but called me cute as a kitten. and in anime they'd draw smiling girls with fangs sticking out so i was happy with them, and i loved myself even when some kids tried teasing they stopped right after they noticed how strong and confiedent i was about my teeth. that changed them not me. so i think the moral is "your beautiful if you believe you are" if only her family was as supportive as mine was that girl wont have changed her ears.

and i really think that messed up her future. cause who knows what type of love she would've found because of them XD its strange but we are attracted to each other by what's unique in us (which we call flaws).

Do you know how severe the bullying was in comparison to that against you though? It varies in terms of what kinds of bullying, how often, from how many people, etc. it can get overwhelming, especially when one is an emotionally vulnerable child. So it could be that her mother tried to be supportive, but that could only go so far, and they decided they would rather give in.

Augh, I wish I could find the article, but if I remember right, the little girl was NOT even getting teased at school. It was the parents friends coming to them and going, "Hey, you know your little girls weird little ears might give her problems in school. She'll probably get teased", and the parents actually REACTING to this and going, "Duh, they're right, even though NOTHING HAS BEEN HAPPENING ALONG THE LINES OF TEASING OR BULLYING, let's 'nip it in the bud' and get it taken care of."

Thus, the surgery.

Which I think makes the freakin' outcome of this story even WORSE.

also her parents could've just cut her hair short so it covers her ears if it was that big a deal to them. and you know the ears are the last thing people notice in my opinion if its not on the face or hands its not a big deal.

also her parents could've just cut her hair short so it covers her ears if it was that big a deal to them. and you know the ears are the last thing people notice in my opinion if its not on the face or hands its not a big deal.

jinsoku wrote:

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Augh, I wish I could find the article, but if I remember right, the little girl was NOT even getting teased at school. It was the parents friends coming to them and going, "Hey, you know your little girls weird little ears might give her problems in school. She'll probably get teased", and the parents actually REACTING to this and going, "Duh, they're right, even though NOTHING HAS BEEN HAPPENING ALONG THE LINES OF TEASING OR BULLYING, let's 'nip it in the bud' and get it taken care of."

Thus, the surgery.

Which I think makes the freakin' outcome of this story even WORSE.

Are you sure nothing was happening along those lines, though? And what if there was good reason to expect that it would happen, even if it had yet to happen when they were warned about it?

matthayter700 wrote:

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jinsoku wrote:

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Augh, I wish I could find the article, but if I remember right, the little girl was NOT even getting teased at school. It was the parents friends coming to them and going, "Hey, you know your little girls weird little ears might give her problems in school. She'll probably get teased", and the parents actually REACTING to this and going, "Duh, they're right, even though NOTHING HAS BEEN HAPPENING ALONG THE LINES OF TEASING OR BULLYING, let's 'nip it in the bud' and get it taken care of."

Thus, the surgery.

Which I think makes the freakin' outcome of this story even WORSE.

Are you sure nothing was happening along those lines, though? And what if there was good reason to expect that it would happen, even if it had yet to happen when they were warned about it?

Yeap. Right here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/14/7-year-old-plastic-surgery_n_849156.html

The Article Wrote:

---

Apparently, the number of teens and children getting plastic surgery has
gone up 30 percent over the last decade, with more and more young
people resorting to operations in order to avoid bullying. However,
Samantha told Juju Chang that she hasn't been bullied, per se. Her mom
said that others have made comments in front of Samantha -- with adults
being worse than other kids -- but confirmed that the surgery was more
preventative, so that her daughter wouldn't get bullied in the future.

So yeah... comments. Not bullying, just comments. Anyone can make comments and NOT be bully. Like, "oh, hey, your ears are weird. Wanna go play?" or "Your ears always been like that? Hm. Neat." to "Those ears make you look funny." None of those are bullying. The act of bullying is to purposefully belittle another with words or lash out against with violence. As I said, the article said ADULTS were worse with their comments, possibly being pretentious pricks. Mom and dad's excuse was "preventative". I call bullshnot.

Even then, I don't blame them. Even if the bullying did not yet start, you never know when it would start, (for me it didn't get bad until grade 5, and got worse in grade 6) and they see this as one less thing the bullies could use to pick on her with. Not that this is enough, but it most certainly is a popular approach to bullying. (See also the "if you let gays adopt kids, that will give bullies something to pick on those kids about" argument in the context of gay adoption.)

A more ideal approach would be to actually confront the bullies and have a better sense of justice in schools. But that in turn begs the question as to how realistic this is, and how one could go about it.

Ah, Jin, glad you brought that completely ignored aspect of this silly situation back to the forefront. 🙂

True Red wrote:

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Ah, Jin, glad you brought that completely ignored aspect of this silly situation back to the forefront. 🙂

"Back" to the forefront nothing, Jin was the first to point it out, and it was only a few posts back that he did.

Ah, my mistake then. I assumed that with all the discussion on this topic that an actual article was linked to in the first post or something for everyone to read. This was the article in one of my local newspapers at the time. So, to me, this was always about adults being idiots (which of course children will eventually follow--but that hadn't occurred yet), not children.

True Red wrote:

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Ah, my mistake then. I assumed that with all the discussion on this topic that an actual article was linked to in the first post or something for everyone to read.

This was the article in one of my local newspapers at the time. So, to me, this was always about adults being idiots (which of course children will eventually follow--but that hadn't occurred yet), not children.

Ah, okay. Well, I think it is quite telling about age stereotyping that the same article quoting someone as saying "Kids are mean. That's just how they are" also notes that the same person has reason to believe that adults are even worse.

matthayter700 wrote:

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Even then, I don't blame them. Even if the bullying did not yet start, you never know when it would start, (for me it didn't get bad until grade 5, and got worse in grade 6) and they see this as one less thing the bullies could use to pick on her with. Not that this is enough, but it most certainly is a popular approach to bullying. (See also the "if you let gays adopt kids, that will give bullies something to pick on those kids about" argument in the context of gay adoption.)

A more ideal approach would be to actually confront the bullies and have a better sense of justice in schools. But that in turn begs the question as to how realistic this is, and how one could go about it.

Bullying doesn't work that way, man. As $*%#%+ as bullying is, you can't "preemptive strike" it. People who don't like you will find a reason to openly not like you and they will find a trait to point out, regardless of how you try to change who you are on the outside just for peer pressure's sake. "One less thing" to get bullied about does not prevent bullying. They've literally taken away a cute little trait of hers, something she should have decided on herself later in her life as she matured and realized what she was doing, and personally I find it abhorrent that the plastic surgeon said OK to the parents. But as you said, US Health system is all about the ka-$hing anyway, so it's really no surprise.

You sort of contradict what you say by saying that the ideal approach would be to confront the bullies - because it is - but here you are trying to rationalize the parent's motive. Stick with your gut, Matt, and don't back up these dorks. 🙂

jinsoku wrote:

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matthayter700 wrote:

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Even then, I don't blame them. Even if the bullying did not yet start, you never know when it would start, (for me it didn't get bad until grade 5, and got worse in grade 6) and they see this as one less thing the bullies could use to pick on her with. Not that this is enough, but it most certainly is a popular approach to bullying. (See also the "if you let gays adopt kids, that will give bullies something to pick on those kids about" argument in the context of gay adoption.)

A more ideal approach would be to actually confront the bullies and have a better sense of justice in schools. But that in turn begs the question as to how realistic this is, and how one could go about it.

Bullying doesn't work that way, man. As %*%+%% as bullying is, you can't "preemptive strike" it. People who don't like you will find a reason to openly not like you and they will find a trait to point out, regardless of how you try to change who you are on the outside just for peer pressure's sake. "One less thing" to get bullied about does not prevent bullying. They've literally taken away a cute little trait of hers, something she should have decided on herself later in her life as she matured and realized what she was doing, and personally I find it abhorrent that the plastic surgeon said OK to the parents. But as you said, US Health system is all about the ka-$hing anyway, so it's really no surprise.

You sort of contradict what you say by saying that the ideal approach would be to confront the bullies - because it is - but here you are trying to rationalize the parent's motive. Stick with your gut, Matt, and don't back up these dorks.

It's not contradictory. One can call something the ideal solution while doubting how realistic it is, and the more I think about it the more doubt I have, seeing as how the fact that bullying got as bad as it is today tells us something about the nature of the children doing the bullying, if not also about the nature of the parents of such children as well, given the kinds of kids they raised. (Not sure how fair it is to blame the parents though, as even good parenting can only go so far.)