I completely disagree, tell Colin Powell that the American dream is a lie and he'll laugh at you, or George Washington Carver, or Eminem, or Kid Rock, or Thomas Edison, or the list goes on.

The American dream is that by hard work we can live a "better" life than our parents, and provide a better future to our children. That anyone can grow up to be President should they so desire. That potential is not limited by genetics.

Jimro

I do think the American dream is possible.

Our country is one of the few in the world built on this unique combination of hope, vision, innovation, diversity and moral grounding.

With that said, I don't think the American dream is as within reach as it should be. A lot of success isn't by hard work. I don't think it's immoral or dishonest, but a lot of people are better off because their parents invested in their education, or because they made better financial decisions, or maybe they were just lucky. As it is, the American public education system is not adequately providing job skills and there really could be better financial services that make investment and startup capital to lower-income families.

Oh, as to WB's second question, no, for the most part, I don't feel like that. Maybe it's because I'm young and still in college, but I do feel that if I really want to change things, I can, but I have to start small. I think perhaps I am the few people in the US left with a sense of scientific and technological optimism..

Sorry if that wasn't what you were asking.

As far as the public education system is concerned, I appreciate how it creates a large middle class, the rich and the poor are in the same room. Though the rich might be better dressed, the poor become motivated because they see they have the same amount of intelligence as the rich. Attaining the american dream doesn't seem too distant. If we started vouchers and private schools, it would create a more distinct class system where there are only rich and poor;a polarization so extreme, it would damage this great country.

The American Dream is possible. As I see it, the American dream is the depiction of hope.

If I were to accept the foolishness of downgrading myself as just a minority, then pessimism would have dragged me down from the top of my class rank to the bottom with the rest of the "thug life" rejects.

Jimro really said it for me, but I'm replying for one particular (and slightly off-topic statement).

Quote:

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If we started vouchers and private schools, it would create a more distinct class system where there are only rich and poor;a polarization so extreme, it would damage this great country.

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I have to say that I disagree. Vouchers would actually allow for greater choice for parents who want to go to a different school, and they would actually force public schools to raise their academic standards. After all, if students (and parents) are given the choice to go to a better school than the one they're going to? Why should a child be stuck in an underperforming school?

If the underperforming school doesn't want to go under, there's only one logical choice: raise the standards and become a better school.

As it is, a child is not stuck in the school they go to. I am actually going to a public school outside of the boundaries I live in, and it hasn't made any difference in cost. There is some flexibility involved.

Though I agree, standards do need to be raised. Implementing vouchers does not seem like the best means to do it with, however.

We could get rid of the entire voucher issue if we could just get the government out of the education business. That is the true root of the problem, not vouchers vs. no vouchers.

The schools are lousy because the government runs them. And like any gigantic bureaucracy, they are inefficient, corrupt, and incompetent (please don't flame me with tales of excellent teachers and administrators. I know they are out there. I'm speaking about the majority, not the exceptions).

If schools were private, parents would have greater choices. There would be competition for price and for quality. Privatizing schools would not cure all problems and would present its own set of new problems, but I believe that the benefits would far outweigh the disadvantages.

Public schools may be good in principle because the poor kids are "equal" to the rich kids intellectually, but that is really not the case. Poorer schools are less-well-funded with worse teachers. Poorer neighborhoods have more crime, less employment opportunities, and less opportunities for cultural/intellectual self-improvement (poor neighborhoods in DC don't have libraries, they have book kiosks.) Poor people have less expansive social networks- a smart, poor man who works very hard to finish his GED will only know other people in the same situation, while a guy who goes to Yale, even if he's lazy, knows a bunch of people who are likely to be successful and help him out. Poor familes can't afford to send a kid to college. And there's pretty much no way to get job skills in high school unless you go to a vocational school. No one teaches poor people how to invest and it's harder to get a loan. It's hard to make money when you start out a step behind.

Public schools suck precisely because they are giant, bureaucratic institutions that don't care about the individual and don't foster a sense of community. They're almost like student factories. I had a friend who commented that the social isolation in middle school is comparable to the drama among "ladies who lunch," or upper class female socialites. In both cases students and upper-class ladies are powerless; they don't have jobs or much independence, so fashion, image, and cliques become all-important standards for achievement because they don't have any real achievements.

Honestly, I don't know about vouchers, but just having apprenticeship programs like they do in Europe, and are starting to institute here, would be great. This is when different businesses and industries work with the schools to get apprentices from the school and train them. So as a student when you graduate from high school, even without going on to college (which only 25% do) you'll have a skill set that allows you to pursue a dignified, worthwhile job, and people who have worked with you, trained you, and support you.

The American dream is that by hard work we can live a "better" life than our parents, and provide a better future to our children. That anyone can grow up to be President should they so desire. That potential is not limited by genetics.
Not that I entirely disagree with you (myself being a capitalist and all), but for a logical, pragmatic realist, that sounds an awful lot like idealism to me.

"The American dream" is certainly possible. But so is me being hit by lightning on a sunny day, getting a tumor from it, surviving said tumor through sheer will to live, getting tons of endorsement deals and book deals because of my story, going on to win a gold medal in the olympics in track, gaining more money from sponsorship deals, and settling down in a nice californian mansion with your girlfriend.

It's POSSIBLE. However far fetched.

The American Dream is possible. However, for it to be actual for some individual, several other individuals must fail to achieve success. Equally, it is easier to live well when you start out with various advantages in social status.

Simple, harsh reality. Doesn't mean you shouldn't aim high, since you'll never reach what you want otherwise.

Cycle,

The American Dream is more of a mission statement than an ideal.

Jimro

Anything is possible to begin with. There are limitless possiblities for any particular individual. All the "American Dream" states is that if you can dream it, you can achieve it. That said, someone has to be very determined to chase their dream through good times and bad. Some may never reach their dream. And others reach it with seemingly little effort. "Can" only refers to your ability to do something; if "you can achieve it", then you have the ability to do so. That does not refer to whether or not you actually achieve it.

Well me not being American may have a wrong view of the american dream but i think it is the dream of the strengthening of a great nation were peace and prosperity are the most important goals.