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That's nice, im from canada so I also wouldn't know any of that.

*from UKland, so has no idea about this nonsense*

That's some wonderful spam. Knock it off, the both of you. @ Trans & TUS

Well what is the real version, Asehn? =.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation
under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

I don't get it.

How much alcohol did you intake before you came up with this revelation, by the way?

The orginial pledge, written by Francis Bellamy in 1892 very simply is very much the same as our pledge today, except that it does not include the "under God" part.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the united States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." It was in 1954 that he pledge was modified by congress to include to words "under God," essentially turning it into a national prayer. Having a national prayer is by no means a bad thing, if you live in a theocracy. However, America is, or at least is -supposed- to be, a democracy, and as such, it can not show any favor for one religious ideal or another. In fact, in the first amendment of our very constitution, we as citizens are promised by our founding forefathers that religion will be kept entirely separate from state. Sadly, this promise has not been kept. "In God We Trust" is printed on all our currency, every day at congress is started with a prayer, in court we are sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God. So what happened to that part in the first amendment about keeping religion separate from state? If we are indeed the melting pot of the world; a conglomeration of all the various cultures and ideas and people of the world, then would it not make sense to either represent all those ideals equally and fairly or none at all? These are the sort of questions I am raising, and perhaps we can get an intelligent and educated debate from this thread. No flames please. ^_^;;

Edit: Here's specific language: Amendment 1 www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

::sigh::

how often do we have to go through this?

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In fact, in the first amendment of our very constitution, we as citizens are promised by our founding forefathers that religion will be kept entirely separate from state.

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Please provide the forum with the specific language which says this. Then I can tell you that you're wrong.

Different day, same debate. Isn't this what Marble Garden is for?

Okay. Keep religion seperate from state. Don't say the pledge of allegience. Nobody's going to lock you up from that.

Why take it away from those who want it around? And don't say it's because it's a major part of society, either... So is Christmas. Should we say we can't have Santas and fund raisers and big Christmas trees in town squares just because it's too religious?

-Jake

TERRORIST!

~Rico

The reason we have Santa is because Jesus became politically incorrect .-.

Uh. This country was founded by Christians. So, DUH.
Plus, no one is forcing you to say it, or just skip it.

"Lord Primus, I know that I am a sinner, and unless you transform me, I am lost forever. I thank you for dying for my at the hands of Unicron. I come to you now, rolling out, and ask you to transform me. I recieve optimus as my saviour, In Primus' name, Autobots."

Yes I know it's the lord's prayer, not the pledge, but I couldn't be bothered making another mockery of other's dearly held mantra's, Okay?

Thats right Senshi you tell those terrorists who's boss!

~Rico

I pledge allegiance to queen frag, and her mighty state of hysteria.

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I pledge allegiance to queen frag, and her mighty state of hysteria

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and you're the one telling people NOT to spam?

HS77.
Leave plz.
It was a response to Crim's post. Now post on topic or post somewhere else, knave.

*deletes' previous post.

lawl~ kk I'm totally replanting this little topic now. To MG!

"The USA was founded on the principle of State being seperate from Church! DON'T YOU THINK SO!?!?!?"

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This country was founded by Christians.

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This country was also founded by people that weren't really Christians. Several of the Founding Fathers that people think were Christian believed in God, but did not believe in Jesus or the Holy Trinity or other Christian beliefs. That's one of the major reasons that they tried to be careful about religion, including using "Creator" as a generic term that can be applied to any religion. Then there was stuff such as what happened to Baptists in the colonies that also made "keeping religion out of government and government out of religion" pretty popular at the time.

Considering the time period, they basically did do "separation." Though Dirk is correct, that the language most often quoted concerning a wall between church and state is not part of the Constitution (which only speaks of laws set). It comes from Thomas Jefferson's papers/letters from the early 1800s (I think). In comparison to now, it's easy to they didn't do it as well as it could have been done. Of course, in comparison to now, they did a horrible job in terms of rights for all (as another example) though in many regards, we still aren't doing that well yet even as we can pat ourselves on the back for being better than 200+ years ago.

Beyond using their exact words; which in many cases were very powerful even if there wasn't a true follow through on them due to the rampant biases against "different people," skin color, and women in particular; I'm rarely moved by the founders did something as a reason to care about it.

Anyway, back to the pledge. asehn, you're incorrect. The original pledge said the following:

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I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

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Due to immigration issues at the beginning of the 1900s (similar to the debate we're having now--history always repeats ;p), the pledge was then changed in the 1920s to say:

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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

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Then of course, due to the "godless commies" movement and other communism issues, "under God" was added. Of course, most people aren't even aware that the person who gave this country a pledge was a socialist minister--and his daughter supposedly was vocal about objecting to the addition of "under God" that's currently under fire.

Maybe its just me, but now that I , ah, half udnerstand this here we go (note I am for having it in the pledge despite how I may sound during part of this):

When people complain abotu the "under God" it bothers me a bit. America's "offical" (is it considered offical, though I know its not offical as in follow it or die, hence the ")The country is mainly comprised of people who worship God, I could see where it would be there. However now I will move on to the political part of this, as it's the source of the problem (as far as I know).

People need to be politcally correct. And it bugs me greatly. They need to follow the consitution to a key, and make everything non-offense. Hence why we have the problem. Many people are too conerned with making things non-offense to everyone. And the problem is, people find that having "under God" isn't politically correct, as it technically infringes on the Seperation of Church and State if you read said bill and put it in a black and white way. But the problem is its not black and white. It's a gray zone. Though I think most Americans are for it, due in part to there pride for there country and that they follow there religion. I mean, if Americans didn't have pride for there Country and God, why would people put "God Bless america" stickers on their cars and sing the song of the same name?

I will not argue that at the time of the founding of our country, most of our founding forefathers were indeed some form of christian, but all of them. Benjamin Franklin for instance, when asked whether or not he believed in "God" per se, he made it a point to aviod a truely yes or no answer. Rather he expressed that he beleived in a profound force of good. I won't say it is historical fact, but that ideal of expression sounds remarkably like Unitarian Universalism to me.

Let's also not neglect the fact that when our nation was founded, not nescecarily when the first settlers arrived here (it's important to make this distinction), that one of the reasons for wanting independance was so that we might separate ourselves from a theocratic governing body, namely England. As such, it was important that our consitution carefully drew out the guidelines we would subsequently follow in order that we -didn't- become the very thing we were declaring independance from, and that goes beyond just religious issues.

Yes, this nation is indeed the largest christian nation in the world, based on population. OK, that's fine. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Our faith's, and our personal beliefs are all our constitutional rights as Americans. I myself am a Pagan, and I know that I live in a nation where most people around me don't share my same set of beliefs and faith. That's fine. But I know that I have as much right as anybody else to believe what feels right and true to me, and to express my ideals and to practice without persecution.

As an American, I live in what is supposed to be a democracy, and in a true democracy, I should feel confident that our very government will not have any kind of favoritism towards one religious ideal or another, whatever it may be. As dominantly christian as our nation may be, it is still of the utmost importance that our government remain, in every smallest aspect, completely and totally secular.

Oh once again, here's the first amendment: www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

What's wrong in having national pride, even if you don't nescecarily believe in anything? What's wrong with being proud to pledge yourself to your flag and country, without nescecarily pledging to God (if you don't really have that belief?) As such, would it not make sense, that if we are to have complete national unity, especially in times like these, when national unity is incredibly important, we can start by at least having a pledge that welcomes all Americans regardless of what you may beleive in or not? The point is, our pledge ought to be about commonality. We may not all have God in common, but I'm sure we can all agree that we may have a love for our country in common. A love for our country is a universal ideal that can be accepted by any and all Americans. What better than to have a pledge that embraces this ideal of a love for one's country, without forcing one to embrace a love for an ideal that does not apply to some. "So don't say the pledge then!" It is unfair that people are forced not be a part of that kind of national pride, just because of two words. What if someone really -wants- to say that pledge? What if saying "under God" buggs the jeebies out of them? That sort of thing can put a really sour taste in the mouths of some people who genuinely love their country, but are quieted by that ideal.

America is supposed to be about fairness and equality. The pledge is not fair to people as it is right now. Restore the pledge.

Sidenote: Spam is a one word post that adds nothing to the conversation. Those who are not mods let alone any KNOW the rules, should not preach them.

Any since this is now the official MoFo whine forum lets get down to some SERIOUS crying around.

Imagine the world is your old high school lunchroom. Key areas represent key cliches. You remember the table full of those kids that always discussed the latest DS9 episode? The ones that seemed to think lunch was a study hour? Yeah, the nerd table? Had a lot of band of vocal kids at it too usually? Those are the Japanese.

The table full of football players? Yeah, thats the middle east. Nuff said.

Now remember that one table you wanted to sit at but didn't dare? The one with the kids that really didn't DO anything but they were cool anyway. You remember this one, I know it, the ones seemed to always be able to find something about you to make fun of? Color of skin, backpack, glasses, car, clothes? Yeah, see, thats America. The "cool kid" table.

Analogy not sinking in? Well I'll explain, America and moreover its government seems to love changing what the people believe. They just tell you something new and you believe it because, well, its america. And we all know everyone loves america except evil immoral godless people like the middle east who are all terrorists except Israel. Right? Right? It's like censored media but they don't TELL you its censored. They just decide what their going to "diss" next and do it. Just like when I was in school the textbooks always said we (Pilgrims) came to "The New World" to escape religious persecution and form a land where noone needed to live in fear of their beliefs.

I'm not sure when it happened but the younger members of this board, or at least ones younger than me, seem to keep saying that "christians" founded this nation to be a "christian" nation. Is this something they are actually putting in textbooks? Or is this something evangelistic parents are just poisoning kid's minds with?

Should I be looking through my little cousins' textbooks with worry here?

~Rico

The fact that people continue to confuse "There", "Their", and "They're" proves there's no god so this whole discussion is irrelevant ^.^

Oh thats BS, everyone knows that Red is really God.

~Rico

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As an American, I live in what is supposed to be a democracy, and in a true democracy, I should feel confident that our very government will not have any kind of favoritism towards one religious ideal or another, whatever it may be.

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In a true democracy, which America isn't nor should it be, wouldn't it logically follow that the dominant religion would have to be the religion of majority?

Or, putting it another way, if "democracy" is "rule of the people," and the "people" are Christian by an overwhelming majority, then favoritism toward Christianity is inevitable.

In a true democracy, which America isn't nor should it be, wouldn't it logically follow that the dominant religion would have to be the religion of majority?
It is a commonly held belief that one of the chief functions of a democratic system is to protect minorities from opression by the majority.

Somebody help me! I am being opressed by Cyc's commonly-held majority belief!

Seriously, though. Saying that a democracy would favor a majority religion doesn't mean that it would opress or crush a minority religion.

A truly democratic system which has a majority of practicing Christians is going to make it easier for people to take Sundays off or get overtime for them. A truly democratic system which has a majority of orthodox Jews is going to make it easier for people to take Saturdays off or get overtime for them. It's pretty much a logical inevitability.

A truely democratic system strides to be either secular, leaving religion at the door, or represent all parties equally, regardless of majority or not. Go to a Unitarian Universalist service on Sunday, and you can see for yourself how the latter system can work in a peaceful and progressive manner.

Dirk is discussing the concept of "true democracy". What everyone else is describing is "representative democracy", which is what is actually in place nowadays.

Can't we all just, get along?

~Rico

Bingo, Acrio. I do wish that people would one day understand that we do not live in a democracy. We live in a republic. Every country on Earth that claims to be a democracy is a republic. There's a huge difference between democracy and a republic.

The fact that we're in a republic is to guard against "crushing the minority." If we were in a democracy, the minority would be perpetually screwed.

Oh, now you did it Kat. Now they know the truth and will all be clammering to become a real democracy. Just great! Now I have to go move in with Cycle.

~Rico

Sorry... but I thought the pledge that most of us were (or are) practically forced to recite in public school made it obvious... **makes peace offering**

You know people never listen to what comes out of their mouths.

So what TransFAN is saying is that under God is technically wrong but do it anyway because it represents a majority.

Dirk is right as usual. The constitution isn't explicit about that. Whether the writers intended it is debateable but not the real question. It should be added because it is a good idea.

Oh and democracy sucks for exactly those reasons. It's because the neocons have absurdly bought into the myth of democracy that the Iraq war was a failure from the start. They're trying to nation-build but they have about as much understanding of nation-building as any random crackhead you find on the street (aka what a George W. Bush who doesn't have rich politically powerful family would be). Democracy = freedom duuuurrr. Iraq republic has turned into religious oppression by the majority and rebellion by the minority.

The real source of freedom is a strong liberal constitution that is actually followed or made more liberal, you know that thing neocons can't stand unless they can project 1700's religious stereotypes on the writers.

Yep, and they are fighting tooth and nail to christianize that constitution and the only reason they haven't done is because even most christians know you can't persecute people for their beliefs.

~Rocko

Thank you Red. The US of A is a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

And I'm just curious asehn...how does saying the Pledge of Allegiance equate with the government mandating an official state religion that EVERYONE must follow to the letter? Which is basically what the 1st Amendment, among other things, states (that the government cannot mandate a state-organized religion? Which is what happened in Great Britain with the whole Church of England business?)?

What do you think happens when you have every little kid in american say "one nation, under god" every morning for 13 years? Keep in mind most people aren't naturally strong willed.

It creates a government/state/municipal whatever allowed way to make Americans greatly predisposed to a certain religion. What do you think would happen if a 4th grade teacher started having their class say "We are a nation, and praise allah" instead of the other one?

~Rico

US History classes suck. I say that for lack of a better word. Were basically taught to glorify the good things in our short history. Anything that would make an American look bad is left out. Example, George Washington owned slaves.

The Puritans (AKA, Pilgrims) came to the New World to gain freedom for their religious beliefs and lifestyle. These people were so radically Christian that the took the bible WORD FOR WORD, and anyone who didn't was sinned and had to be killed or else converted. Here's one that blows my mind; Since Puritans didn't have the best farming techniques for the new climate, they began to destroy and steal the crops from Native Americans to survive. Their excuse was that they were "Godless sinners." Not to mention the fact that their unsanitary lifestyle involved practically no bathing, so Puritans carried many diseases Natives had never been exposed to, starting a terrible plague that is NEVER mentioned in any US History textbook.

These are the same people we practically worship on Thanksgiving.

The pledge is actually no longer required in most schools. It's still pretty habitual for it to be said in the morning, but I barely make a mumble. Unfortunatly, the president we have right now is an idiot, Christian or not, and I don't care what others veiw of Bush is. I don't like him, or his cabinet, or his judges, or his ideals. Whatever.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal, so I have a tendency to go off when topics like this come up. Sorry,

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What do you think happens when you have every little kid in american say "one nation, under god" every morning for 13 years? Keep in mind most people aren't naturally strong willed.

It creates a government/state/municipal whatever allowed way to make Americans greatly predisposed to a certain religion. What do you think would happen if a 4th grade teacher started having their class say "We are a nation, and praise allah" instead of the other one?

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That's a bit of a stretch. I feel pretty safe to say that religious beliefs are generally gained by childhood reflection of what one's parents believe or by personal reflection when one gets old enough to really think about moral/ethic thought. Also it's not like the pledge says "One nation, under Jesus Christ". I always thought "God" was a bit of an ambiguous term anyways, because a multitude of religious establishments will tell you that they believe in God, just not necessarily the Christian God. Allah, on the other hand refers singularly to the Godly Father of Muhammed. Therefore, I think the Christian connotation is sort of self-imposed.

I don't believe that people aren't "naturally strong willed" either, just because the majority of the world believes in higher authorities.

Hmm, good point. Still what happens when some kid doesn't believe that way? They have to sit quiet and become "the weird kid", kinda hard to laugh sitting in that seat.

I've gone to catholic school for thirteen years and I've never seen anyone marginalized by the students or the faculty because they did not believe in God. In fact, you're more likely to see someone being picked on or considered strange because he or she is a "Jesus Freak."

But that's only my experience and I hardly live in the "bible belt."

You had a rare experienced then. I've seen it twice. I'm not saying they were like mean to them or anything, they just got left out alot.

~Rico

That probably has more to do with your respective locations than the schools.

I never said the pledge of allegiance and rarely got attention.

The additions are clearly based on intolerance so why keep them even if you don't think they're a violation of disestablishment?

BTW, it's anti-individual and nationalistic so why have a pledge anyway?

These days, Catholic schools are favoured by most for their academic prestige, and nothing else. Besides which, the Catholic church has been pretty cool for the last few years and even gone as far as to distance themselves from the irrational dogma that plagues much of the American protestant community. I'm just glad there's no such thing as Baptist schools or Evangelical schools.

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Baptist schools or Evangelical schools

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How little you know, my dear Canadian. How little you know. In the DFW Metroplex there are 20 alone, I spent the first 10 years of my schooling at First BAPTIST Academy, which was part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Personally, I loved my catholic high school, not because it was academically better than the local public schoos (whcih it was), but for various other reasons.

Public schools are required to sidestep the issue of religion entirely, which is silly because religion is an important part of cultural history. Because in a Catholic school we are allowed to discuss religion, we had many interesting discussions on the subject with a variety of viewpoints, mostly catholic, protestant, atheist and agnostic.

I discussed religion in my plublic school Philosophy class all the time. But then that teacher also told us taking acid helps yoga, so maybe he wasn't supposed to let us. 😯