Last week, representatives of the religion that eighty per cent of North Americans follow held a two-day conference in a posh Washington DC hotel to discuss how they're being oppressed. Actually, scratch that - these people are not representatives of the majority of North American Christians. They really represent a radical right-wing fringe which seeks to use religion as a tool to gain political traction for their intolerant ideas. But of course, claiming that there is a "War on Prejudiced Fools Who Seek to Destroy the Separation of Church and State and Radicalize Canada and the United States With Their Own Warped Version of Christianity" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, so they decided on "War on Christians" instead.
And oh, how they whined. "It doesn't rise to the level of persecution that we would see in China or North Korea," said Tristan Emmanuel of Vineland, Ontario, who is chiefly known for organizing a "Canadians For Bush" rally in Niagra to support the invasion of Iraq, "But let's not pretend that it's okay." Doesn't rise to the level of persecution that we would see in China or North Korea? No kidding. In North Korea, they execute Christians with steamrollers. In America, the president is openly Christian, as is the vice president, and the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and the House Majority Leader, and the Senate Majority Leader, and the Attorney General, the Defense Secretary, the Secretary of State, and seven of the nine members of the Supreme Court. And 80% of the rest of the country. So one might indeed argue that it doesn't rise to "the level of persecution that we would see in China or North Korea."
Top speakers at the "War on Christians" event included Tom DeLay (under indictment for corruption in Texas), John Cornyn (a top recipient of funds from convicted felon Jack Abramoff), Sam Brownback (another top recipient of funds from Abramoff), and Gary Bauer (accused of adultery). And let's not forget Alan Keyes, who threw his daughter out of the house because she's a lesbian.
The event also featured Michael Horowitz, who told the attendees, "You guys have become the Jews of the 21st century." Presumably he was referring to the 6 million American Christians who were gassed to death in Massachusetts concentration camps last year.
I believe I can sum my thoughts up with one word.
pbththththththththththbwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!! 
~Rico
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The event also featured Michael Horowitz, who told the attendees, "You guys have become the Jews of the 21st century." Presumably he was referring to the 6 million American Christians who were gassed to death in Massachusetts concentration camps last year.
Another Jewish speaker, Michael Horowitz, told the conference that the "Christian decency of this country" saved him from becoming "a bar of soap" in Nazi Germany.
Way to take the quote totally out of context. Mr. Horowitz was commenting on a moral living based on biblical truths. Jews have 613 divinely commanded laws that the devout try to obey to recieve blessing from Yaweh. Christians believe that the old testament is meant to be lived "in spirit and in truth" so that the lessons of morality and righteousness come through, or as Jesus put it, "mercy, judgement, and righteousness".
Jimro
He's had one too many dips in the sacremental wine. That wasn't "Christian" decency. It was "HUMAN" decency. Easy to confuse since those yahoos are always claiming rights to the good in humanity.
Stop taking credit for our good points ya loonies.
~Rico
I must disagree with you Rico, human kindness doesn't impress me much.
I was not impressed with the human kindness the Japanese military showed to POW's and Phillipino's. Nor am I impressed with the Islamic based terrorism. Nor am I impressed with communism. Between Hitler and Stalin there wasn't much human kindness.
Historically humans have been really nasty to each other. There have been "Christian wars" too, truth is truth. But the net affect of Christianity on civilization has been very positive.
Jimro
So you base your views on humanity by a few reports from japan, a few thousand RELIGIOUSLY (and a religion not that far from Christianity mind you) motivated nutjobs, and two very disturbed men?
I'll counter japanese military with american military. You know as well as I do that save for a few bad apples they help the people in foreign lands on a almost personal level (as most are still kids themselves). And no thats not Christianity, thats human. Soldiers would be considered immoral by christians as they break one of the BIG rules.
I'll counter Communism with Democracy or the IDEA of communism would even do that. The IDEA was to create a society were there was no need to jealously or fighting as everything belonged to everyone. A VERY "Kind" goal. But unfortunately not all humans are the same and some seek only power. Hence why Democracy was created with its checks and balances, another attempt to protect weaker members of society.
Hitler and Stalin? I'll counter with Buddha, Dalai Lama, Mother Teresa, Abraham Lincoln, Mahatma Gandhi, oh hell lets throw Carl Djerassi in there too just to piss off Ultra.
It's retarded to make people think humans are evil just because some group of people with a chip on their shoulder wants to take credit for everything GOOD that people do. Christianity is only as good as the people that join it. I'm sure some very "evil" people considered themselves Christian or at least claimed to follow God. Should I start pointing them out?
Christians are just as much "lowly" humans as the rest of us. They're no more magically inclined for "good" as anyone else.
~Rico (Proud to be a REAL American)
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Soldiers would be considered immoral by christians as they break one of the BIG rules.
You mean 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'? Mistranslation of 'Thou Shalt Not Murder'. Big difference.
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Carl Djerassi in there too just to piss off Ultra.
Considering everyone else you included, Carl Djerassi's big contribution (helping develop the oral contraceptive pill) doesn't really measure up...and hasn't really been a big help for society in general.
But on-topic...
Christianity's code of moral conduct (when not twisted for the purposes of evil men, as has been done unfortunately in history) has been a backbone for most societies - particularly in Europe and the United States - and it would be silly to disregard its contribution to civilization as a whole.
As for the War on Christians...I will say that, although Christianity is still the major religion in the United States, there are some instances where the religious freedoms of Christians (and the suppression of Judeo-Christian values in favor of secular humanism, in particular) are being chipped away...but in America, it's still largely mincemeal in comparison to other countries. American Christians are, to be honest, 'soft' compared to the Christians of other countries.
Persecution in America - Being told you can't put up a Nativity scene.
Persecution in Afghanistan - You get killed if you're not a Muslim.
So although I DO think there is a War on Christians going on (a war on Judeo-Christian values, in any case), it's just more subtle in America than it is elsewhere. And I would choose a different word than 'persecute'...as things in America are right now, 'persecute' is too strong a word. Maybe 'disdain' on the part of some people.
But you never know...the Nazis started with small things before they incinerated Jews.
Matthew 5:11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Between Hitler and Stalin there wasn't much human kindness.
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, Gods truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... and if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." - A. Hitler, eighty-four years ago to the day, in a speech in Munich.
"Let us pray in this hour that nothing can divide us, and that God will help us against the Devil! Almighty Lord, bless our fight!" - In a speech to the Sturmabteilung in 1930.
"I intend to set up a thousand-year Reich and anyone who supports me in this battle is a fellow-fighter for a unique spiritual-- I would say divine-- creation....Rudolf Hess, my assistant of many years standing, would tell you: If we have such a leader, God is with us." - 1931 (quoted by Richard Breiting).
"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Proclamation to the German nation at Berlin, 1 February 1933.
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work." - Speech before the Reichstag, 1936.
Lot of Christian decency there.
But you never know...the Nazis started with small things before they incinerated Jews.
Yeah, but then, 80% of the German population wasn't Jewish.
And Jesus Christ called for the murder of Jews...when?
Proclaiming oneself as a Christian is not the same as actually being a Christian. Basically, talking the talk, but not walking the walk...or, in Hitler's case, walking somewhere else entirely.
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Proclaiming oneself as a Christian is not the same as actually being a Christian.
Exactly. Kinda like the skewed moral compasses who hosted the rally in the first post. Thieves, liars and adulterers who use Christianity not as a faith but as a security blanket and a tool to continue lying cheating and stealing.
There is no 'war' on Christianity in the USA. It's a persecution complex, the same one that afflicts the majority of the far-right/far-left nutjobs. If there was a war on Christianity, everyone'd know it because there is no such thing as a subtle holy war.
Hitler used religious overtones to support his antisemitism. Jesus had some interesting things to say about Jews, if you care to read the New Testament. Jesus advocated mercy, not killing. Hitler had to sell his vision to a Lutheran audience, and he was a great orator. Crazy, but a great speaker who could really work a crowd and sell his vision. Hitler couldn't have sold his anti-semitic policy to an unwilling public.
However, if we want to talk about anti-semitism in the Church, that branches off into a whole different topic, which I will gladly go into if anyone is interested. Any takers?
"God is on the side with the best artillery." Napoleon
Reminds me of the televangelists. Anyone remember Jimmy Swaggert?
Mention of that name is be worth a stoning. Or at least a sporking.
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Matthew 5:11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
I'll have to remember that one.
~Rico
Thats enough to make any sane person WAGE war on christians. XD
~Rico
The only clear cut example of large scale war on christians was the genocide on Armenian Catholics by the Ottoman empire pre-world war 1, but their genocide wasnt based whole-ly on religion, it was based on culture/race much like the jews. In western society i see discrimination against mormons and catholics based on stereotypes and bad names given by polygomists and dirty priests. But christians as a whole are most likely not looken down upon (or at least the individual person isnt) *just the hypocritic whores in high position that flaunt a christian background and perverse the ideas of their faiths*
**walks in**
Anyone can quote from the Bible, claim to be a Christian, and declare that their actions are in the name of Christ. Not everyone, however, can live like a Christian.
**walks out**
From Soaps, to the news,...to religious programs, Yahwists are not mentioned, except in Zola levitt's program which tries to convert Jews to Christ.
we are the fastest growing segment in America. It started as the sacred name movement.They go from Jews for Christ, Messianics like the Assemblies of yahweh, Netzarim....who still believe in Jesus divinity and virgin birth,...to modern Ebionites and Christian Yahwists like me who reject Jesus Divinity and virgin birth.
I am a product of Catholic Yahwism. catholics use Bibles which use God's name as Yahweh: The Jerusalem Bible and La Biblia Latinoamericana.
We are united by the use of the Name Yahweh , though some still call him Ha Shem or the Lord,for God and Yahshua for Jesus.
I consider Jehovah's Witnesses also part of it, but they use another pronunciation based on the vowels of Adonai (Lord). There's over 1.5 million of them(Only one million are counted-they count only those who minister the bible)Altogether, we must number over 5 million already in the United States.
Another, though mucl older, the Christadelphians.
PS: for those who knew or saw Zola Levitt on TV, he passed away this April 19, 2006 at 11:15 am from cancer. His picture. I had mentioned him here before.
TCY... what the hell does that have to do with the topic? It had nothing to do with the topic being discussed, nor did it add anything. I think that counts as spam under the rules around here. Anyway...
I'll try and sum up what I think about this in a fairly short manner.
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Doesn't rise to the level of persecution that we would see in China or North Korea? No kidding.
Gotta agree with Cyc on that. If anything, Christians in America have it damned easy, but then they do live in one of the wealthiest countries in the western world (if not the weathiest), so that may very well have something to do with it. But I'm not here to start a discussion on socio-economics. Frankly this thing strikes me as yet again a lot of people who claim to be Christian who have nothing better to do than make a fuss and turn molehills into mountains. And going by some of the names involved, it looks to me like a whole lot of posturing and trying to make themselves look important.
Oh, and what Questern said brings this to mind, which I think could probably be applied to some of the people involved with that event:
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"...You can't keep your true self hidden forever; before long you'll be exposed. You can't hide behind a religious mask forever; sooner or later the mask will slip and your true face will be known. You can't whisper one thing in private and preach the opposite in public..."
Luke 12:1-3 (TM/R)
Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
~LightStrike, aka SilverShadow.
Light Strike,
The claim was persecution of Christians....we are also Christians, but not of the Protestant type or Catholic type.
We don't get the exposure oters like Benny Hinn, Dr. Schuler, Dr. Billy Graham,...Rogr Mahony get. We don't have someone to protect our views in th courts, in congress,....
Maybe you have not read my stuff here at the marble garden on immigration. I am the one making the bigger threads.
Or under herewalking on water, where I offer the best explanattion for Jesus walking on water.
Even Jimro here knows who Yahweh is.
Wait a minute... i dont know about Canada (although its pretty much the same only less politically crazy) but we did found this country with one of the main things being freedom of religion... so... is there something so hard to understand about that? Oh yes, and remember, it does say "in god we trust" on every piece of american money...
TCY, that's fine and all, but... the post you made was simply going on about who you are and what your beliefs are. It didn't actually add to the discussion on the initial topic made in the first post, neither did it really seem to have an awful lot of relevance to much else that had been mentioned. If you read the MoFo's rules, you'll find that "posts that add nothing to a discussion are spam".
And frankly, just because you're making "bigger threads" doesn't give you a right to spam in a topic.
Oh, and just for clarification, I know perfectly well who Yahweh is too. I'm a Christian myself. By the way, I notice from your earlier post it says that Yahwists reject Jesus's divinity and virgin birth etc... doesn't that kind of disqualify you from referring to yourself as Christian? Bearing in mind that the definition of the word means "little Christ" or "follower of Christ". I'll clarify what I mean by this if anyone asks.
~LightStrike, aka SilverShadow.
You = not mod
Me = mod
The post was not spam. Any complaints go in the EVC.
Personally I would be of the thought that "In God We Trust" should no more be our money then "To understand everything is to forgive everything". Seperation of Church and State, we seem to be increasingly combining the two. That in turn is making us look like a nation of hypocritical idiots to the rest of the world.
I guess my point is if the Christians are oppressed, what would you consider the Atheists, Buddists, Islamics, Pagans, etc?
~Rico
Separation of Church and State isn't even in the Constitution to begin with. Only that government may not establish an official religion that everyone must follow.
And what do you think basing laws off a certain religion is?
~Rico
I'm pretty sure 'MURDERING PEOPLE IS BAD' isn't specific to just Christianity.
There are OTHER things that are. A number of them.
~Rico
Can you think of any that outlaw the religions of others in the US of A?
No, just laws that further the beliefs of one religion.
~Rico
That's hardly a unique trait of the US.
So its ok because all the other countries do it?
~Rico
If you don't like it, secede your house from the US. Get a flag and call yourself 'Ricoria'! 
I thought was about how Christians were being oppressed. Now its "If you don't like our ideals then goto Canada?" Thats the most unoppressedlike oppression I've ever seen.
IT'S A HOAX!
~Rico
You have no appreciation for sarcasm.
Of course not. I suffer from from a rare diease called ultrajimiliciousiedislexia. I can only give sarcasm, I can't take it.
Now get back to topic and stop talking about my dress. I will not marry you!
~Rico
If you have a disease, there's only one thing to do.
WE MUST OPERATE!
*grabs the rubber gloves*
The Dress. o.-
~Rico
If you're trying to make a point, I'm not getting it. o.o
Our national motto reflects a radical change in thought from other forms of government. Revolutionary at the time, and most other democracies have since copied.
First off, that individual rights do not come from the Government.
Think about that for a second. That just by being human we are endowed with certain rights. That we are not "given" rights by our Government.
By saying, "In God We Trust" we are saying that even Government has to answer to something.
Our founding Fathers had many different views on religion, but they all recognized that a government by the people and for the people needed to be a limited government. "In God We Trust" reflects that philosophy.
Jimro
After all, if our rights are given by the government, then the government can take away those rights.
Think about that for a second. That just by being human we are endowed with certain rights. That we are not "given" rights by our Government.
We are, however, guaranteed by the government to exercise some of those rights without interference.
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If you don't like it, secede your house from the US. Get a flag and call yourself 'Ricoria'! 😀
Remember, the Civil War made it "illegal" to secede. ;p
Well, i just spent the last half hour writing a response off of Jimro's lapse back into off-topicness and comment on the fundamental rights we are born with as jimro said"Think about that for a second. That just by being human we are endowed with certain rights. That we are not "given" rights by our Government." *which i didn't perceive as rights but as capabilities, its not that we were born with the right to breath and the same right to murder, but we were born with the capability to breath and the capability to murder, we were also born under the control of our specific government who says which capabilities we may not use*. and then realised i didnt put a subject on after i hit reply. So, now i
A: dont want to retype it.
B: know that it was off topic anyways and that jimro is picking for a fight/response and
C: Believe the opinions that i was trying to express are felt and agreed upon by at least 50% of posters here if not more so there really isnt a need for anyone to read my rant (concider that a warning).
here's the jist though.
(/begin rant)
America is a good place to live in right now, hand's down. We dont have to worry about ourselves or our families being murdered thoughtlessly because of laws that our goverment has held over us since birth or that a virus, bomb, or nation will slaughter us in our sleep. With much influence by the whiny baby-boomer @#%$ generation *as a whole not speaking of anyone in particular or saying that the next generation wouldnt have done the same thing* brought up very hypocritical topics of Abortion, Drug use, Immigration, Sexual prefferance, Religion, Political correctness, Racism, War, and Government conspiracy have all been thrown into our governments face(many more baby-boomers) and are the source of much fighting and even segregation of grouping between left wing, right wing, liberals, conservatives, fundamentalists, and people who have very little opinion on anything.
But when you look at it in the very core issues you see the same thing. America is not necessarily a great place to live, but i can think of so many more places i'd rather not live/be born into/raise a family. I am not saying that other countries arent in the same situation, but i am saying that more countries are in worse then better *though not necessarily talked about in US culture since the happenings of third world countries aren't our biggest concern however short a time it was since we were there and whether or not we may be heading back*
I needed to get that out of my system since my first *and infinately better topic* was errased because i forgot to copy it. this way the last *45 minutes now* dont seem entirely wasted. *copies topic*
(/end rant)
damnit i went way off topic. Continuing on about jimros last comments...
Our government has had control over us since birth, same as just about anywhere else in teh world. We have rights, its what our country was founded on *as americans* but the rights are bound by the rights of others. Our country's core is based on the fact that we are all made equal(except of course blacks and natives and mexicans and asians and jews, but i am getting off my point since these matters have been about all resolved over time) and therefore no one should be given an unjust disadvantage. If taken too literally it could be misinterpreted like in Farenheit 451, that we are all born equal and thus no one should be made better than equal, however because of the variable of circumstance this cannot and should not be the case (pretty sure Thomas Jefferson had something to do with the first occurance of that idea in American culture so i'll just go ahead and give him credit). Our government just doesnt want people taking away others basic rights, and then 'allows' us to have some more specific rights. but we have never had the right to murder, steal, etc. even from birth *just the ability to*.
So when we break these rules that we are born having them against us, then we face a punishment (under the definition of having something taken away or added to in hopes of deterring further criminal actions). And it's our government who determines the kind of punishment. But the problem that sets itself next would be who is in control, our government, or us? and thats where im stopping because it starts to branch out into too many directions here and takes away form what i just said.
basic point: Jimro i dont beleive we are born with any rights at all, but there are many people born with infinately less rights than none.
just my opinion
ESPIO,
I should have made myself clearer, that certain phrases of American Government smack of religious overtones (In God We Trust, one nation under God, God save this honorable court), and as such some people feel they violate a seperation of church and state (a most misunderstood concept).
Since Christianity is/was the "dominant" form of religion the common mistake is that every mention of "God" by Government is referring to the "Christian God".
My previous post showed that this is not the case. God is used because there is no other applicable "entity" or "being" for the moral authority upon which our Republic is based.
Please allow me to expand on my previous post.
The science of the era of the founding fathers still believed in "divine spark" that gives life, that all humans somehow reflect God. As we are a democracic republic, by the people and for the people, it only stands to reason that "God" who "sparks life" into the people, is the ultimate authority over the people, and not the government they create.
This is a direct contradiction to rule by divine right. "God made me King, to defy me is to defy God." After all, a King has no innate authority other than birth, and the transfer of that authority to every man gives rise that the same authority claimed by "divine right" would transfer as well.
There are many permutations upon the same theme, but the point is that some "battles against Christians" (or more specifically, the battle for an atheist government) are not founded upon anything more than a lack of understanding of political history and philosophy.
Jimro
Please tell you're not saying Christianity should be the official religion of the US and it's Government.
~Rico
After all, they were replacing King George by President George W, borrowing from the British Magna Carta, The Roman Senate by creating senators for life(since they thought most common people could not be trusted), and a house of Representatives modeled on the British House of Commons.
It was through later ammendment that Americans in The United states have been able to enjoy more freedoms, like the freedom of religion, freedom from slavery, right to vote for everyone,....but it took 200 years.
Our modern George W seems to look more like the King we dropped.
Religion can be used for good or evil. But in the hands of government....it is dangerous because ONLY A CERTAIN VIEW IS ENFORCED. Thus, creating resentment.
As a Christian yahwist, no one in government in the United States espouses my views.
Rico,
By no means am I recommending an official religion for the United States. The Constitution is quite clear that the Federal Government is not to honor one religion over another.
I do strongly recommend that we continue to endorse the political philosophy that Government isn't supreme, that the powers of government are given to them by the people due to the "inate value" we have simply by being alive.
Our founding Fathers used "God" in this rather secular manner, and it is appropriate for us to continue to do so.
The idea that the government is supreme, and rules over people, is what we rebelled against. Even an atheist can understand "God" in terms used by our founding fathers (sort of like deus ex machina means plot device instead of literally "machine from God") and agree that no religion is involved, purely a (for its time) revolutionary political philosophy.
Jimro
Perhaps a little offtopic from the current discussion but certainly ontopic with the thread in general...
Meh.
Denouncement of homosexuality =/= Thanking God for his death at his funeral. After he died in battle, for goodness' sakes.
