i see vegetarians are on the wrong for beliving eatting meat is unethical, and i think its unhealthy for their bodies to depend on supplments. if animals eat meat why shouldnt humans? its obviously the natural process of things.
i see vegetarians are on the wrong for beliving eatting meat is unethical, and i think its unhealthy for their bodies to depend on supplments. if animals eat meat why shouldnt humans? its obviously the natural process of things.
To be fair, the very idea of "natural" is questionable at best, seeing as how "artificial" things are made from "natural" things even if in a very indirect way... and "natural" is especially questionable on a moral level, especially when there are all kinds of things animals do that humans have generally decided are below civilized standards.
Anyway, it's their bodies, it's up to them if they refuse to eat meat; there's choices far more unhealthy that society allows. And it's not like supplements are the only alternative; I don't know much about the nutrients in meat, but I've heard that there's also plant-based alternatives like soy, which can be used to get protein, and that a lot of the vitamins and minerals in meat can be gotten elsewhere. I don't know the specifics of it though.
Of course, there's a difference between those who are vegetarian but don't bother others about it, and those who try to impose vegetarian standards on others... and even then, it depends on the kinds of standards they're trying to impose, and the approach they take towards it. Confronting factory farms? Good, seeing as how they're not only cruel to animals, but also unfair to farms that are less cruel to animals. Branding all meat eaters as Nazis like PETA did? Bad idea, especially since it makes no distinction between factory-farmed meat and other meat.
The usual claim for why we shouldn't eat meat but why animals are allowed to is down to us being moral agents - as in beings which are capable of understanding right from wrong, and so acting in a moral way - whereas (other) animals are merely moral patients - beings to which we should have moral concern.
Personally, I feel that as long as an animal is treated in an ethical way when being farmed, so as to eliminate as much suffering as possible, especially regarding the eventual killing of them, and the carcass is used efficiently, rather than largely wasted, there is no moral objection to eating meat. That said, this is not how all animal farming is conducted, especially as showing this level of moral concern is either not profitable enough or insufficient to meet the demand created by man with the resources available. On the basis of simple efficiency of produce, a vegetarian diet actually requires less land and energy to produce, and so could in theory sustain a greater population. Typically, vegetarians also tend to be healthier than non-vegetarians, but that may have more to do with them being a lot more conscious of managing their diet...
I think Trimanus hit the nail on the head there. But, I'm not sure if I want there to be a larger population. XD
There are a number of amino acids that make up something called "complete protein". It is obtainable from meat and soy, and I'm not aware of anything else that has that.
Any other food with protein is missing a few amino acids and relying soley on that is not healthy.
From what I understand, nuts and pulses can do a suitable job of supplying the amino acids required. As for how healthy it is, considering processed meats are generally being viewed as reasonably harmful to our health, I'm not convinced it counts as the greatest health risk.
Then again, there's apparently someone who's been surviving without obvious sustenance for several years now...
I always wondered something regarding vegetarians who don't eat Meat because they don't like the fact that you had to kill something to make it:
Aren't plants alive, too? Why eat them and not say... a Cow?
Are animals more lovable or something?
I always wondered something regarding vegetarians who don't eat Meat because they don't like the fact that you had to kill something to make it:
Aren't plants alive, too? Why eat them and not say... a Cow?
Are animals more lovable or something?
I'd have thought it had more to do with how animals (presumably) tend to be sentient and plants don't. Even as a non-vegetarian I think that whether or not the creature has feelings, whether or not the creature is aware of what is happening to it, etc... are all important factors.
Though I guess how "lovable" certain creatures are probably plays a role in how likely popular opinion is to support giving them "rights..."
Like, whether they have faces or not. That's a vegetarian cliche.
Some plants have light sensing cells. sensing
When was the last time you heard a plant cry out in pain?
The kind of "pain" responses exhibited by plants are very different to what we immediately associate with suffering, which makes it a lot easier to ignore that yuo are harming or killing something when harvesting vegetables.
Mind you, there are the fruitarians, who have the justification that fruit is intentionally produced by plants as part of their method of reproducing and so wants to be eaten...
My sister's a vegetarian, and it makes making dinner for the whole family a pain in the butt because the rest of us like eating meat. >:/
When was the last time you heard a plant cry out in pain?
The kind of "pain" responses exhibited by plants are very different to what we immediately associate with suffering, which makes it a lot easier to ignore that yuo are harming or killing something when harvesting vegetables.
Mind you, there are the fruitarians, who have the justification that fruit is intentionally produced by plants as part of their method of reproducing and so wants to be eaten...
Just because a plant can't make a noise doesn't mean anything. Most animals don't make noises when they're killed quickly.
What would a vegetarian or vegan say about carnivorous plants such as Venus fly-traps or pitcher plants? If even some plants eat meat, why shouldn't humans?
Just because a plant can't make a noise doesn't mean anything.
Maybe so, but that plants don't have a nervous system with which to feel pain (let alone a brain with which to know about it) is more than enough reason to doubt that plants could be aware of what is happening to them.
We should bio-engineer bacteria that produce sloppy joes.
In the end as mammals we can only survive through intake of energy via high-energy sources. That being other organisms such as plant, fungi or animal. How we choose to do this is to our own violation as we're omnivores, we can eat any organism as long as it isn't full of harmful bacteria or poison. But we are built to take a mixture so depriving one food group (meats) will deprive us of some vitamines and minerals (proteins) unless we're careful to find a decent alternative source. I don't think it's wrong to choose to be a vegetarian as long as you can get these minerals, it's just naive to assume that you're saving the animals/planet/etc in doing so. It's also makes you a pain in the bum if you shove it in everyone else's face and you end up sounding like a git.
i was going through some tough times so i havent been enjoying the marble zone for a bit. the disscusion is still very interesting to me...so excuse me for cutting in late.
"I don't think it's wrong to choose to be a vegetarian as long as you can get these minerals, it's just naive to assume that you're saving the animals/planet/etc in doing so. It's also makes you a pain in the bum if you shove it in everyone else's face and you end up sounding like a git"
that's a whole issue on its own, vegetarians like religious people arent satisfied with their own following of a belief they gotta try and drag everyone else in it too. usually that's a sign of doubting their own ideals. can any vegetarian honestly say they're postive about letting go of meat?
"Maybe so, but that plants don't have a nervous system with which to feel pain (let alone a brain with which to know about it) is more than enough reason to doubt that plants could be aware of what is happening to them"
i think they do get hurt maybe not feel pain, let's think of it this way, if a person lost feeling of their hand but still can use it, is it right to stab his hand?
i know that farmers believe plants get hurt if you dont take care of them or even when you dont pick their fruits and vegetables a certain way. for example "pulling" a fruit off a plant damages and kills the plant, "cutting" the fruit off is better. so like trimanus suggested how animals killed for food should be the same for how fruits and vegetables should be acquired from plants.
"We should bio-engineer bacteria that produce sloppy joes"
well cloning animals isnt that impossible we know that.
Interestingly I ran across an article fairly recently on BBC website reporting that scientists have shown plants are capable of reacting based on the light parts of them are exposed to, as well as showing some suggestion of "remembering" patterns of light. Similarly, the responses plants have to injury - using sap to seal any severances of their structure before replacing with appropriate type of growth - are not exactly dis-similar to those of a lot of animals.
Plants tend to be less mobile and vocal in their reactions, given they lack the means to easily move out of the way or produce sound independently of a passing breeze or other colliding object, so we don't really get to see an instant "pain" response as we might expect from an animal. Similarly, the lack of an obvious central "brain" or nervous system makes it harder to point to anything that would generate the experience of pain for the organism. But given plants have shown an ability to respond to external stimuli and are credited with being alive, it is not entirely incredible to assume they are capable of experiencing something analogous to pain when they are injured.
the research you were talking about could prove that plants like animals do get hurt, in which the activists claim of not hurting other living creatures by going vagan is incorrect.
we humans ourselves are edible, what's wrong with eatting animals? its all the circle of life. we cant live without eatting another life form, one with a face or without one.
as for a different note, i do support PETA in someways, watching the giant industries handling of animals is important. i really feel sorry when i see the supermarkets meat aisle filled with rows of good meat that would most likely have half of it thrown out from expieration. i really belive we are wasting too much food, and so killing some animals unrightly.
We should bio-engineer bacteria that produce sloppy joes.
Silly Acrio, there's no need for such pointless research. All you need is a cow.
And a blender.
A very large blender.
Cows are a nonrenewable resource when you consider that so is the sun.
I tried to be vegan once. I don't suggest it; you will crave meat all the time! 
It will be a very strangely strong craving 
Cows are a nonrenewable resource when you consider that so is the sun.
I tried to be vegan once. I don't suggest it; you will crave meat all the time!
XD yeah that's true i tried it too, but didnt it feel good eatting after the long deprivation? and red meat is what you mostly crave. i have to hand it out to vegans they have strong will power, if i get isolated somewhere without food i'd feel safe with a vegan cause i know they wont turn cannible.
I am about 3 months late into this discussion, but it's still on the first page, so I will post anyways!
Whether you're vegetarian or not, I think one of the best things you could do is make sure the animal you're going to eat was respected while it was alive. There has been research that shows that animals that are happy throughout their lives have more nutrient-rich and colourful meat. One of the biggest arguments against the local movement and certainly the organic food movements are that it costs much more money for the consumer, but the truth is, most factory-processed meats cost far too little. I think it's a little crazy to believe that a cheap, frozen, econo-meal is actually a good purchase.
One of my favourite anecdotes that I've heard on this issue is how people are so ready and willing to pay top dollar for their automobile (mainly for status), but are satisfied to pay 3$ for a meal at a fast food restaurant. Why would you not want to invest a little more money into the things you are going to ingest, and put through your body?
I think the general gist most people have here is that, "as long as I don't have to eat (that thing those people over there are eating that I don't like), then I'm fine with them doing that. But if they try to force me to eat (that thing) or otherwise be a jerk about my own diet, then I have a problem." I readily agree. I don't see anything wrong with someone choosing to partake of only
plant matter, as long as they don't try to make everyone follow suit or
just be uncooperative when the rest of the family eats meat.
I believe that plants and animals were both placed here for the use of humanity by a God who provided them for us to use. But, with that comes the responsibility to use such resources wisely and humanely. Whether you believe in a god of any kind or not, I think most of us agree that the efficient use of resources is better than wasting them.
Mada, I fear that you are doing the exact same thing that you don't like, insofar as you're trying to convince vegetarians that it's only "natural" to eat meat and therefore they are unnatural in some way for not eating it. Is that any different from outspoken vegetarians saying you're evil for eating the flesh of animals?
What Clouded said in that last paragraph is right on the money. You are what you eat, after all. Our views on what is tasty have been affected over time by not just the meat industry; many canned fruits and vegetables, for example, have added syrup or salt to make them tastier, but invariably less healthy at the same time. It's not just a matter of plants vs. animals, since both are being misrepresented in the marketplace for a cheaper, faster price at the cost of healthier alternatives.
Cows are a nonrenewable resource when you consider that so is the sun.
I tried to be vegan once. I don't suggest it; you will crave meat all the time!
XD yeah that's true i tried it too, but didnt it feel good eatting after the long deprivation? and red meat is what you mostly crave. i have to hand it out to vegans they have strong will power, if i get isolated somewhere without food i'd feel safe with a vegan cause i know they wont turn cannible.
Not necessarily. There's a difference between eating something because one craves it and eating something because one's "isolated somewhere without [other] food."
VCP, I came here to inform you of how much I love you and you post that.
I... don't know what to say now. You're scrumtrulessent.
