Is this the second or third time I've proposed this year?

<3

~Tobe

I don't know. I haven't been keeping track of those. I'll go with second though. 😉

Only thing I take issue to there is the implication that you will be reading through our PMs.

That's pretty bad form and I really really disaprove of that ability being used at all, let alone used unneccesarily.

There are times, such as when I am at work, when I do not have access to an IM service and the chat is my only way of communicating. In the past Dub has sent me links to his works in progress via Elitechat or spoken about classified stuff.

Would it be possible for you to make PMs a "only one person has access to" area and to use that access you need valid reason and permission from fellow admins?

This request hardly seems to be a rule lawyering or backchatting thing, it's just very very discomforting and depressing to know people have access to that information and I'd rather the power to do such was handled and moderated responsibly.

Otherwise, I've no personal issue with anything declared here.

See the issue with that is. Say we give only Kat rights to see PM's.

Dumarse123 announces VIA PM to Blunderfat that he's going bot spam the chat and board.

The only way anyone would notice is if Kat happened to have time to come online... and happened to read through the chat log... AND happened to look back to that exact time frame. Otherwise we have a mess to deal with.

The issue is more enforcement of leaks. Say if we had an admin called Racio, and Racio found Dubs link and posted to other people. As it was we wouldn't DO anything to Racio. The solution is to make leaking PM things not worth the risk. Like the punishment being loss of rights and permanately banned.

~Tobe

I can tell you, Craig, that reading PMs isn't something I'd do unless I felt it necessary. It's not worth the time. There's a reason why I mentioned "if I catch it." Years of modding/admining boards/chats have given me a decent sense of when there's something going on that needs attention. I do targetted strikes. However, as I'm not yet familiar with how the chat settings are constituted, I can't promise anything with regard to them beyond what I will/won't do.

Edit: Oh, leaks, please, that's not even something I'd give a warning on. I expect mods/admins to have better sense. That's an automatic permaban if I get told about it.

In the words of Canadian Judge: I'm not sure what I think about that...

However I'm left with no choice. The 30 minutes every lunch I get with Tricia are too precious to compramise.

I'm sorry, but this is overkill. while I respect you own the server and can do what you want, you have to be 13 to use it, and thus should be PG-13. Yes I know younger kids can use it, but we shouldn't adapt to people breaking the rules. Also that is way too open to interpretation, and I can tell right now it can lead to trouble.

And the idea you have that kind of power when you aren't even an MF Admin is freaking stupid. I'm sorry, its like giving a former president president powers.

In a less extreme form of what Tranny said, don't you think you're being a little extreme, in wording? We've long adhered to the rules as set forth on this forum - and that includes a fair warning rule. It nowhere includes "I'll ban you as long as I feel like it if I feel like it." and the only case it mentions instant bans at all are very extreme cases.

I do agree that this is overkill, but I also agree that it's your server and you can do what you want with it -you're doing a courtesy by using your resources to keep it up at all, I understand that. But it just seems a little odd to me personally that you'd do such a courtesy, than turn around and be so...aggressive about it. Anyway, I'm just posting in the hopes you'll stand more by logic - is this a bad thing or nothing? - and less by strict, inflexible, uncaring hostility. Because, and I'm just trying to be honest with you here, I think it more an offense to tell someone a lie on what you think about them than it is to be open and honest with them, that's all I see here.

Well, I can't really say that I agree on the whole age group thing. I'm against making the entire chat G rated, or even PG rated. The odds that a kid on the internet who's going here isn't already exposed to PG-13 rated stuff is pretty low. I mean, really...what kind of stuff is so bad that you're just gonna ban somebody?

I really don't like it, especially the fact that the other mods/admins don't have a say in it. Seriously...

I can't really think of much else to say here, so I won't...

Beautiful is the sheen of the animal... gracious is the way it moves... delightful is the way it smells... astonishing is the way it sounds... destruction and chaos run rampant when you obtain said animal.

Make of it what you will. ;D

Yes I know younger kids can use it, but we shouldn't adapt to people breaking the rules

Even though it's clearly stated in the rules to keep things below a PG-13 level? Just because the rule is meant to keep younger kids from participating in discussion doesn't mean the older teens or even adults want to discuss things of that sort.

I see it as more of a common decency thing rather than a protection thing, seeing as the average age on the board has raised since the rules were first written. And just because the chat can maintain conversation in real time doesn't mean it's any different from the message board.

On a random note, I mentioned this in chat, but I've heard a lot of talk about people getting angry at the mods not doing their jobs. Now that somebody's stepping up and laying the smackdown, everyone's still complaining. Jeez, it's impossible to please people.

EDIT: Gah, HTML! YOU EVADE ME AGAIN

~Shadowed Spirit Sage

Even though it's clearly stated in the rules to keep things below a PG-13 level? Just because the rule is meant to keep younger kids from participating in discussion doesn't mean the older teens or even adults want to discuss things of that sort.

Okay, I guess PG-13 is the new R and X. Everyone knows PG-13 means that you can be all vulgar and sexual.

*throws his two pence into the thread*

I for one normally keep within the rules of the chat, so wouldn't be likely to be "too" affected by this, however i too have similar views of concern that have been echo'ed by previous posters.

Quote:

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The worse-case scenario is I just shut it down completely and you'll be forced to find some place else to chat. However, I seriously doubt the worse-case scenario will happen. I have no hesitation toward booting people so I don't plan on having any annoyances with the chat as long as it's on my server.

---

We know in the past that you've "hated the chatters" and had ez/etc disabled, so I can see the chat no being around for much longer.

Also The mofo in the past has relied on it's user making contributions, suggestions, discussing the rules and how to take the mofo forward etc, but when it gets to the point of "well, it's my soccer ball so i'll make all the rules" I'd rather see this place (the mofo) die then carry on like this! I didn't see lighty going out his way to flex more muscle just because with was on his server.

Also The mofo in the past has relied on it's user making contributions, suggestions, discussing the rules and how to take the mofo forward etc, but when it gets to the point of "well, it's my soccer ball so i'll make all the rules" I'd rather see this place (the mofo) die then carry on like this! I didn't see lighty going out his way to flex more muscle just because with was on his server.

+ a million. Nothing like that lasts long. The people get sick of it and leave.

hmmm... Why are the rules changing?

MoFo Rules:

Quote:

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PM policy

Private Messages, or PMs, are an available service for users who wish to speak privately with other users in the chatroom. The staff has the ability to read PMs. This ability is there to assist Moderators and Admins in cases of users abusing the PM system to harass others. Keep this in mind when using the PM system.

---

Your Rule:

Quote:

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If I catch you doing anything that I deem inappropriate, I'm kicking you out of the chat.

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What the flying f--- ("It is okay for people to use "s---" or "sh--" or "sh-t" in their posts.") is that? I totally understand mods reading the PMs if someone is bothering someone else... But this invasion of privacy is uncalled for. If you are going to do this, I suggest you rename "Private Messages" to something alone the lines of "Messages between you and <insert name> and True Red" .

I also don't agree with your statement that your guidelines will change when ever the heck you feel like it... That totally defeats the purpose of having rules.

Time and time again these issues come up. I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again. If you want people to be happy, you need to ask them what should be done. Let's have a forum wide vote on the rules. That way everyone gets a FAIR and EQUAL say in what goes down here. This forum isn't one person's playground. That and we are getting older. These seesaws and little baby toys are going to cut. Deny it all that you want, the facts are clear: most of us have out grown Sonic. Look at the post counts in the SPA compared to SI... or MFC compared to Knothole. Numbers speak louder than words.

Who are we? Are we a group of sonic lovers who occasionally like to talk about other topics? Or are we a group of friends, originally linked by a love of sonic that has grown into something more mature?

Sincerely,
Michael Boston

I'm in 100% agreement with you there, Boston.

We've had the ability to read PMs for years now. However, as TR pointed out, we aren't searching the logs constantly to look at every private tidbit that happens - that would be insane. But if we have a reason to suspect something is going on, it gives us the ability to investigate. Having the ability to read PMs doesn't mean anyone's privacy is going to be constantly invaded - and anyone who's not sensible enough to keep what they do see to themselves, deserves the boot promised to them. And frankly, aren't you glad that we at least are telling you we can read them instead of keeping it a secret?

The staff has also been aware for quite some time that this change was coming when we moved to the new server. So any staff member who does not agree with this policy had a lot of time to raise their doubts long before this present situation. Therefore you know that the staff stands behind this.

And as for the "13 years old to register" thing...show me where it says the Flashchat, which is a separate program/entity from EZboard, requires a person to be 13 years old to register for it. You won't find that on Flashchat. It is implied that someone active here needs to be 13 or up, but the chat itself is independent of that restriction. Plus it's moot anyway because you can be 13 and older and still follow the rule guideline.

Terg, that's not the point they are trying to make. What they are saying is that the age restriction for 13 year olds would be a PG-13/ Teen (video games) rating.

Also with regards to the PMs, what you stated is the OLD rules. TR's rules propose that ANY PM activity is open to banning. There's a difference between acting when there is an obvious problem and acting when nothing wrong is occuring. TR is saying she can go through PMs whenever she fancies.

Also with regards to the PMs, what you stated is the OLD rules. TR's rules propose that ANY PM activity is open to banning. There's a difference between acting when there is an obvious problem and acting when nothing wrong is occuring. TR is saying she can go through PMs whenever she fancies.

Which by the way, is noisy. Unless there is an issue with harassment, you can't just go looking for PMs for stuff to ban people for. Hence PRIVATE MESSAGE. Thats something you shouldn't censor. Its private; people can discuss what they want how they choose.

But she also pointed out herself that she isn't going to sit there and watch the PMs the entire time. She has a real life too y'know. 😛 And technically someone could get banned before if something they said in PM earned it, so again, it isn't really changing anything.

And again, would you rather she didn't say it out loud and just banned people without letting them know? That used to be the policy, and I made it a point to change that because I wanted people to know not to post really sensitive stuff through the PM system if they absolutely do not want to let people know. There are IM, the board PM and e-mail alternatives for people who absolutely have to send something private.

I'm going to confess to something. I've known about this major change occurring for quite some time now, and really shouldn't have been surprised...

...but, well, when I saw "new MF Chat", I thought we were moving away from FlashChat. Maybe to IRC or something. I'd have liked that, actually - being on IRC would mean I could have both this chatroom and #srb2fun open in one window, thereby removing any excuse I have for not visiting your chatroom. Alas, such is not the case.

Man, am I naive. >_>

Quote:

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As long as the chat is on my server, all discussions/RPs/room names/user names/etc. will remain on a U/G/TVY7/PG-level.

---

I'm all for regulated chat. I wish more things in life had a metaphorical nun with a giant steel ruler ready to swat the hands of loud-mouthed idiots (that aren't me). Xbox Live, for example, would be better off with one of those just roaming around.

That said, I've always disliked rating things by MPAA standards, mostly because nothing ever actually adheres to the standards it proclaims to emulate.

For example, you can say the s-word in a PG movie. I can say it multiple times. If you want to be REALLY technical, I can also say the F-word (Spaceballs, Beetlejuice, Big and Crocodile Dundee). If you want to be really really REALLY technical and historical, you could have topless women in a PG-rated chat with the 'Airplane' precedent.

My point, now that I've effectively wasted everyone's time with my movie-nerdiness? PG (and every other movie/TV/video game/comic based rating) is crap. It means nothing. It's a fake standard that alters and changes through the years with no stability. It's asinine wishy-washy crap. Worst of all, it's VAGUE. It means whatever some faceless body wants it to mean at some particular random time.

Don't be vague in saying what's ok and not ok. Be specific. Don't say "There's a line around here" and then wait for people to fall over it, put up a big sign that says "LINE HERE DO NOT CROSS".

Lay down the rules first. I'm happy to follow rules I can see. But if the rules basically equate to "Don't piss off X the person who gets pissed off randomly", then I'm afraid that I'm not gonna play ball.

Since TR is not going to post again for 3 months, I feel inclined to inform you all of a few things:

We adhere to both the doctrine of this message board, and to the doctrine of the Ezboard service. Ezboard's doctrine over-rules the one of this message board. Why? Because they graciously allow us space on their server, and it is all they ask in return.

Replace Ezboard with TR, and the board with the chat and you have this "new" situation.

TR is not going to change her mind; at least not with simple appeals to tradition. People who wish she would can do this:

Or buy a server for us.

To clear up other confusion: TR is not a member of the chat staff. She is not one member of a group being given an unequal amount of power to the other members.

"Therefore you know that the staff stands behind this."

This is false. I, for one, am not and never will be behind this. However, I never raised an objection as I feel TR is feel to do with her server as she pleases and the only reasonable alternative I could think of would be to let the chat remain on Lighthead's server, but I was under the impression that Lighthead could not/would not continue to fund the server on which the FlashChat was hosted.

I'm also a little concerned with the quote "I do targetted strikes." Based on that and the rest of your post, it seems more that you're going to watch people you consider bad instead of watching people based on who's complaining about them. I don't think many people want server demigods who target people, as you say you'll do.

It's no secret that some users seem more disposed to breaking rules than others. Watching a specific user for that reason and discovering rule breaches more easily because of it is not a cause of alarm.

Also, it's not TR's duty to listen to the complaints of forummers reguarding the board. It is the staff's. Keep in mind the seperate interests of TR's server and the MoFo.

Mind if I give my 2 cents?

For the most part, I really don't care as long we have a server to chat on. I don't believe I've ever been warned by a mod/admin for a rules infraction (as far as I know). I generally follow the rules, but I would be lying if I said that I was not at least slightly concerned about the new "MFChat". But I do understand that is True Red's server and she can do as she pleases with it. Normally, I'm not that optimistic about things, but I don't think that we have to worry that much about this situation. I just hope I'm right. >_>

Why do you people think we WANT read all your sordid PM's? The only one that ever read PM's for laughs isn't on the staff anymore. Seriously guys, you're being ridiculous. This isn't the U.S., you don't have an expectation to privacy.

Did you know the EZboard admins could have everyone's password? Did you know Acrio could have your passwords? Did you know that any admin of any board you ever visited could have your passwords, have seen your yiffy PM's and secret discussion, and could know where you live?

Why do you think I make a huge stink when people get promoted overnight without any discussion?

As for the other complaints... bah. You people are reading all kinds of insane things into this. The only thing thats changed is she isn't going to put up with boners, modrights, yiffing, etc. And I'll GLADLY give that up to not have to deal with people that constantly pushing the line from mild innuendo to childpron.

I seem to remember that if someone constantly caused problems in school, they got watched harder. This is same thing.

~Tobe

Let's see if I can summarize some of the stuff I've seen.

TR shouldn't be mean because Dr L wasn't or she's not chat/board staff (chat will be shut down side-note)

I'm not Dr L. I never claim to be, nor will I ever. I have my own ways of seeing things. I'm shelling out my own money. I am not taking donations either (and I'm about to discuss with Vec that the ads need to be taken off SHQ unless there's something that I don't know about them). So yes, call me a dictator/tyrant or whatever. I couldn't care less. As far as I'm concerned, it will be my way or the highway.

Only because it is related, I have no need to shut down the chat. I know I will not because I know one of the following things are going to happen: 1) those that this thread is directed to are going to shape up; 2) those that this thread is directed to will stop coming of their own accord; or 3) I will kick everyone out that this thread is directed toward so that there wouldn't be any problems left.

I don't hate the chatters or I wouldn't have allowed it at all. I just don't like some of the stuff that has gone on within it and I'm not letting it continue.

It should be PG-13 because you need to be 13 to register

Well, I'm sure I spoke out about this in the old censoring/language thread in EVC and Sage already echoed most of my thoughts on this line of reasoning. It's on an all-ages site. It should be an all-ages chat room. That means the fact that it's real-time versus "delayed" or artwork/fiction that can have warnings with regards to content matters. You want to discuss things in detail beyond your average "Archie" comic or "Disney" cartoon, then you still have access to AIM, MSN, ICQ, Trillian, etc. as well as the ability to get chatrooms elsewhere. Being prevented from doing something here is not the same as being prevented from doing it at all. I'm not the government. I'm a private citizen and I can allow/disallow whatever I want on what I own. These "terms and conditions" have not been a secret--and I'm making sure that they aren't in case some people have missed them before (but based on who has responded, only 1 or 2 could possibly be surprised by this). What would've been "mean" is just going around and booting people without saying anything similar to how a zillion things have gone on around here toward me. I believe in giving a heads up and I have.

Isn't this extreme?

Ummm, no. What would be extreme would be me paying a few people to do what I'm going to do so that there couldn't possibly be a delay. The potential for a delay is the only thing I even feel slightly sorry about due to the fact that it means people will get away with stuff for longer than they should have. I think a warning is fair. I think if someone can't learn their lesson after a warning that it is fair to be punished for it. Life isn't all smiles and frowns can be great teachers.

Staff agrees/disagrees

There's not one thing beyond possibly "random site spammers" that everyone on staff agrees with. Everyone on chat staff will have his/her own opinion. I have not asked for anyone's agreement or disagreement. I don't need to do so. I purposely stated what I said about mod/admin/Vec because I am going over everyone's head and I know it. Whether anyone agrees/disagrees has no bearing to me because as long as it's on my server I'm going to do what I'm going to do.

Too vague

Well, everything is case by case at the end of the day. Two people can kill someone, but in one case it's self-defense while another it was to rob someone. Technically, the same thing happened, but the circumstances were different and would be treated as such by most people.

The same thing will end up happening with the chat. However, I think the basics should be obvious due to the fact that I've said "all-ages." But I'll take a quickie stab at some key points.

Nothing more than slight sexual/violent stuff should be going on (re: kissing--okay; humping--no; mentioning destruction & results--okay; describing in detail how "bad" someone has been hurt--depends on how descriptive, pointing out bruises/cuts/etc. fine, but not much more than that). No cursing/swearing (90% of it will be censored; the human mind always forgets some of the variations until someone uses it) or using slurs (obviously most won't be censored as some slurs have regular "okay" meanings; so context will matter here). No censor dodging and the only acceptable self-censoring would be to use "----" or "****" or whatever repeating non-alphabetic character someone chooses. No letters. Not even one.

It just boils down to a more accurate phrasing of Dub's famous quote: "if TR wouldn't let a 10 year old see it, then don't post it." As TR wouldn't let a 10 year old see stuff beyond Disney's Gargoyles, TMNT (cartoons--not comic), etc. I do think most people can handle it. Most people do follow this stuff, minus the cursing, which is easy to either fix or get booted on.

Oh yeah, one more thing. A specific example would be that "Blackjack & Hookers" room if it hasn't been renamed yet, will be when I get around to it. 😉

Targeted strikes

Yes, it means that if I have reason to check you out that I will look closer. I'd be wasting my time if I paid the same amount of attention toward someone who almost never does anything wrong as I did toward someone who is known for doing things inappropriately. Will I miss people? Of course. As I noted before, I'm not here all the time--and if you base my posting on this board via anything other than Knothole, Acrio's comment is pretty accurate. Therefore, if you happen to misbehave when I'm not able to check, you may get lucky and avoid my basketballs of doom or army of Knuckles plushies (whichever I choose to send out). Timing is everything in life and sometimes people are lucky.

PMs

I'm making it clear that I do not consider PMs a safe haven for inappropriate activity. Unless you are someone who has been using the PMs that way, you won't have anything to worry about. I'm not concerned with people's private conversations. If the fact that I (or anyone with the ability--mods/admins--based on the current chat settings) can read PMs bothers you that much, then the only recourse for you is to not use the feature. If I have reason, I'll look through. I will not read all or spend my time trying to find gossip or whatever. That's not me. I have better things to do than that.

Completely new chat

Sorry, but that's not on me. That's on those otherwise controlling it. Bug them. 😉

Yes, I was well aware that all the staff had that power. I just tend to get uneasy when someone gets aggressive. I've always been that way, even when they're joking, so don't mind me.

I'm so going to be banned the moment I get drunk and start dancing around naked again >.>;

Nah, you and your boxers will just be mutilated beyond recognition. A far worse punishment as you'll lose your attractiveness with a certain crowd. 😉

I'm not sure he wanted the underage furry boys hitting on him anyway.

~Tobe

Sometimes the easiest joke is the best joke.

>> When in the heck did I have a server?

Oh. She means Dr.L. Might be time for a name change..

I was meaning that if the staff didn't approve, then ultimately they could have just gotten a different server - it is somewhat implied by no one rushing out and doing this that they are at least okay with this happening, or they just don't have the resources to do it.

And those clarifications actually do quite well at answering more specific questions that I had. Thank you very much.

It's nowhere implied that because one didn't offer to host the server themselves, that means they're okay with it. I don't really see your logic there, could you try to make that more clear?

If someone is adamantly opposed to the idea of TR running the chat on her server, the obvious solution is to get a different server to run it on. Since this has not happened, it doesn't seem like anyone is that opposed to it.

Is that clear?

Not that it matters anyway, since the chat is on her server now.

Well, seeing as I don't cruise across the MoFo chat very often, this doesn't really worry me, too much. However, that means that I won't be able to be myself at the wee hours. 😛

Even though I am technically staff, I can't say that I agree with her. However, I also can't say that I WON'T adhere to this policy. On a third note, I also see the chat dying down quite a bit.

The truth is, as someone said, we are growing adults. That does not mean we are all there, yet. New generation of gamers and comic readers alike that find themselves here due to their love to Sonic, Tails, Shadow, etc., can still be the younger type. I won't lie, I probably didn't help in her decision. Whenever I was in the chat, I was good ol' Jin, and I sure as hell didn't hide it, (granted, I did so in the wee late night hours 99.9% of the time), but what if an advent fan came in. Would we scare them away? Offend them? Their parents?

Whether you all like it or not, this forum, this website, is based on a game that is rated "E" in the US, and so shall the community behind it. You will have to make yourself accustomed to the rules, don't go anymore, or make your own chat room or message board.

It is what it is, guys, and while I also understand the whole "it's my ball and we play how I want" complaints, you all have to understand that it's a lot different when it comes to owning a server and adhering to that server's TOS. Even if she's hosting it HERSELF, she would still have to adhere to whatever ISP's TOS. One complaint about an underage 13 year old hearing some really out-of-left-field stuff being caught by mommy, and, well, watch out. She's paying for it, people, not you.

I'm sorry, I see what you're saying, I jsut don't agree that it's logical, Terg. IM me if you're interested in discussing it, because this isn't the place to persue it. (if not, please let me know as such so I know you've at least read this)

Dammit, I'm going to ban you both if you don't quit bickering. Well maybe I should just make you hold hands instead. 😉

SX, quit being difficult. I scanned this thread ONCE and saw that Terg was saying that if most of the staff thought Kat was being a 'nazi' or such they would have found some other way to host stuff.

~Tobe

I'm sorry, I have to disagree - I wasn't bickering, or at least I wasn't trying to, I was jsut saying that while I saw what Terg was saying (after his clarification) I didn't agree that it was logical.

But this isn't the thread for it and I don't want to spam and derail threads, that's why I said that - to end it as far as this thread's concerned.

I'm pretty sure it was made clear in advance that TR wasn't going to tolerate anything she finds inappropriate as long as the chat was on her server, am I correct.

I really don't see why everyone's whining and complaining about it. I most certainly don't see anything wrong with it.

Reason people complain is because, by nature, people are anti-authoritarians and when they log on one day to see a wall of text more or less whipping people into submission (via their perception, based on prior knowledge to it and expectations upon reading the topic title) they'll immedietly go on the defensive.

Simple psychology, really. If you debate with someone, using the word "but" alone will cause someone to go defensive, as it draws a line between your opinion and the one you're hearing and that instantly renders a defensive reaction.

Whereas to say "and I think..." it's not drawing a line, but continuing on from what the person was saying and showing them the new opinion.

So, it's just a case of people getting all whiny because Red wrote a rather offensive sounding proposal, which is not to say she wanted to be offensive or angry, just that she wrote something which caused the reaction. Happens all the time.

Well, she used words like "tyrant" to describe herself in her own post. I hardly think she wasn't trying to do SOMETHING by putting it that way.

I used the words I know people are thinking (whether they would post it or not) toward me. It's my way of saying that using those words isn't going to bother me as well as pointing out that they aren't going to sway me either.

I wrote it this way because I wanted it clear to all that I'm serious.

This may actually make me visit the chat on this board more often. Personally, I am in favour of this.

If someone is adamantly opposed to the idea of TR running the chat on her server, the obvious solution is to get a different server to run it on. Since this has not happened, it doesn't seem like anyone is that opposed to it.

That's a really bad, bad way to put it. Hosting the chat costs a lot of money, and most of us don't have the means to pay for it. Saying that because nobody else provided a server, they are perfectly fine with the idea, is ridiculous.

Perhaps we could say that if someone is apparently opposed to the idea of the Iraq War, they should go stop it, and since this has not happened, it doesn't seem like anyone is opposed to it?

That aside, I believe that the new rules of the MF Chat aren't going to be as big of a problem as some people believe. While I don't think the MF Chat needs "fixed", I also don't think it's going to be "broken" by this turn of events. Honestly, I think everyone should be able to continue enjoying the MF Chat.

You are right, it was put badly. However, I did say "THAT opposed" as in, they are not so opposed to it that they would get their own server. I was using a degree of opposition instead of an absolute yes/no value of opposition. As in, someone can be opposed, but not opposed enough to get their own server.

Maybe now I understand why that idea was causing so much tension. 😛 Is it clearer now? Plus it'd be dumb if I meant it the other way, since some staff members have proved that idea wrong in this thread.