Based upon what I've seen from the link, the point of contention would appear to be moot in this case. Note the Manga entertainment logo in the corner? This animation is an anime, unless manga entertainment are just co-sponsors or something. And the style does seem to resemble- to an extent- some of the short anime films I've seen from The Animatrix. So, whilst I'll admit that I could very easily be wrong, Dead Space does look like an anime to me. But, to keep more strictly to the subject, though anime does seem to be very popular atm, I definitely think there's still plenty of room for western style animation out there too!

Maybe you should tell your friend that, were it not for western animation, anime as we know it today most likely would not exist. Osamu Tezuka, often regarded as the Father of Anime and Manga, was directly inspired by classic Disney fans such as Bambi.

Not to mention, the word "anime" is merely the Japanese term for any type of animation, be it Japanese or western.

I really love both. I'm sure they can live together. You just happen to see some anime that is targeted towards adults, but western cartoons are mostly (I know there are a few exceptions) geared towards kids. As I've grown up I've looked for more adulted themed shows and quite a few anime seemed to fit that. The only western stuff like that are comedies that get pretty boring after a while.

Its funny the large flip flop role reversal that happened. during the baby years of animation the Japanese were imitating us. Now years later we're imitating the Japanese. I generally do not like western animation that tries too hard to look anime. Because its amazingly easy to tell whats Amerime and what is real anime. And it feels panderific which makes my skin crawl.. Of course there are my acceptions but that in itself is probably bias on my part. ie. Transformers Animated or Teen Titans. I'm a fan of those franchises so I really don't care XD.

I've heard people call Code Lyoko imitation anime. That might even be true but I'm quite fond of that show. Especially when the 3D segments improved.

Then there is my more preferred idea of a combination of both worlds. A show called Oban Star Racers was animated in the Japan but the script I believe came from France. And another example is The Boondocks. I hate that show but that isn't the point. >.>

Then you have shows like Avatar where people actually fought over what to call it. Anime or Cartoon? Well of course us Westerners just can't have shows originate from our country with a deep or epic story line with complex interesting characters in this generation so it's gotta be Anime by default...right?

The dead space cartoon doesn't look like anime to me. Or at least not in the way I view anime in my mind. It looks like it has anime influences but it looks more Western in my opinion. Kind of like TMNT before the crap redesigns. That was definitely a show with anime influences but you probably couldn't call it anime (At least up until Fast Forward when the writers got a memo that they had to turn the show into a 30 minute commercial for toys like the old days)

That's definitely animated in Japan or heavily influenced by Japan. There are hints with the style. That's certainly not to say that all anime looks the same, as some idiots and racists like to say.

#1 example of why that is not true

Anyway, anime can't kill cartoons because they ARE cartoons, which is all the more obvious considering the original argument about that movie. The fact that the word is just what people call animation from a specific country makes all the hype, hate, praise, and etc. ridiculous.

lol how is it racist to say that all anime looks the same? Sure that's really generalizing but I think this sometimes. I've seen enough anime where I sometimes confuse one character with another from different shows. Is it racist because they are Asian or something? Eventhough most anime characters look Caucasian...

as far as the Dead Space movie goes. I guess it can be either. I mean is the bulk of anime for a show even DONE in the states these days? I thought it was all done in Korea anyway. So in a way that makes everything part foreign.

Mhmhmh.....Anime is not killing U.S. Cartoons, Greed amoung copmpanies, the firing, retireing or quitting of good animtors is killing U.S. cartoons.

The 80's and 90's had so many good cartoons because it had good writers and animators, many of these people have since quite or retired. Not to mention many networks that aired lots of cartoons in the 90's such as Nick, disney and CN all havve different CEO's THESE CEO's are honesltyl a lot more greddy and care about other things, nick & disney about teeny bopping BS anmd CN more about canadian flash animation and CN real wich is nothng but ripoffs of real reality shows. Anime has been beig this decade because US networks refuuse to make quality toons for the mist part.

also yes there can be anime aimed at kids just like there can be US toons aimed at adults!

That's certainly not to say that all anime looks the same, as some idiots and racists like to say.

#1 example of why that is not true

Yup, not all anime looks the same. However, I don't necessarily think it's racist to say that all anime looks the same in and of itself - but it IS an idiotic accusation. I once saw an image containing many eyes drawn in different anime styles. There are HUNDREDS of different anime styles. Those who claim otherwise are either ignorant or in denial (perhaps even both). Oh, and Crayon Shin-chan rules!

Anyway, anime can't kill cartoons because they ARE cartoons

This. In Japan, the word 'anime' is synonymous with the word 'cartoon' and refers to any and all forms of animation - regardless of its nation of origin and/or style. The word 'anime' apparently derives from the French phrase dessin animé. In any case, most of the Western world uses the word 'anime' to refer to any and all forms of animation originating from Japan.

Personally, I thought western cartoons went downhill as soon as Disney started imitating Ren & Stimpy, with absolutely awful drawing. Stylised is one thing - I like the style of, say, "Mighty Max" or "God, the Devil & Bob", but downright badly drawn only works if the plot & characters have something going for them. Like early "DangerMouse" had either pencil or crayon backgrounds for driving / flying sequences and that was fine because the whole product was so much better. "Schnookums & Meat" on the other hand, had nothing going for it as far as I was concerned.

Can anyone who watches current day cartoons tell me if the animation style improved? I'm not thinking the Simpsons / Futurama - again, I'd put those in "stylised but with substance" (mostly), but whatever stuff kids are expected to watch these days (I'm rather out of the loop).

I don't think anime has much to do with it; in fact it's interesting that people think anime is better - I'm pretty sure when I was growing up "Japanimation" was cheap & cheerful.

DW

lol how is it racist to say that all anime looks the same?

However, I don't necessarily think it's racist to say that all anime looks the same in and of itself - but it IS an idiotic accusation.

Some blarms are nerps. That does not mean every nerp is a blarm.

Personally, I thought western cartoons went downhill as soon as Disney started imitating Ren & Stimpy, with absolutely awful drawing. Stylised is one thing - I like the style of, say, "Mighty Max" or "God, the Devil & Bob", but downright badly drawn only works if the plot & characters have something going for them. Like early "DangerMouse" had either pencil or crayon backgrounds for driving / flying sequences and that was fine because the whole product was so much better. "Schnookums & Meat" on the other hand, had nothing going for it as far as I was concerned.

So very true. To me Schnookums & Meat was the shark jumping moment of the early 90's Disney cartoon revival.

(And the style does seem to resemble- to an extent- some of the short anime films I've seen from The Animatrix)
what? animatrix is an animation company? i thought it was a tv channel.

(Maybe you should tell your friend that, were it not for western animation, anime as we know it today most likely would not exist)
i did, being loyal is something a consumer isn't known to do. i really love the old cartoons they had a certain feel, and i like new cartoons like Samurai Jack, Ben10 and MegasXLR ....but to her the art isn't good enough or the story isn't deep.

(The only western stuff like that are comedies that get pretty boring after a while)
actually sometimes i feel anime gets too boring at times, too much nudity, religeous and conspiracy ideas are put in them and theres more talking then action. where as westren cartoons get to the point.

(I generally do not like western animation that tries too hard to look anime. Because its amazingly easy to tell whats Amerime and what is real anime. And it feels panderific which makes my skin crawl..)
that is so true, although i don't mind dead space and megas..... i think it's okay if western artists learn to draw with more detail like anime, as long as they don't copy it and put silly spells and anime related face expressions.

(The fact that the word is just what people call animation from a specific country makes all the hype, hate, praise, and etc. ridiculous)
i know it's just easier to explain my point calling westren cartoons "cartoons" and japanese cartoons "anime", they are both cartoons but i feel anime is bushing cartoons into hiding.

(The 80's and 90's had so many good cartoons because it had good writers and animators, many of these people have since quite or retired)
the truth is ................ i actually heard big company mangers say word for word "hiring asian artists is cheaper"
but still perfection is not perfect. people might say japanese video games are the best but the UK's Tomb Raider proved it was the best, and she doesn't look realistic or well designed, but she's very enjoyable.

(Can anyone who watches current day cartoons tell me if the animation style improved?)
westren cartoons are 2 types now, 100% westren <which always chooses to take a comedy anime influnced storyline> and the westren with asian artists (not usually japanese sometimes korean or hongkong artists) and these mimic the usual anime ideas of robots and magic powers. either way they're all effected by anime.

oh btw another good cartoon is toy story watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dic_Hhnh9zg

(And the style does seem to resemble- to an extent- some of the short anime films I've seen from The Animatrix)
what? animatrix is an animation company? i thought it was a tv channel.

The Animatrix was a series of short anime films based upon the reality and events portrayed in the triloggy of 'Matrix' films. And I guess I'll have to use 'anime' in its broadest sense there, since 'The Final Flight of the Osiris' certainly didn't look like what might be considered conventional Japanese animation. With that exception though, the film you mentioned & the shorts that made up The Animatrix did seem very similar to me, which is why I'm inclined to think of the one you linked to as 'anime' in the sense of Japanese animation.

(Can anyone who watches current day cartoons tell me if the animation style improved?)

westren cartoons are 2 types now, 100% westren <which always chooses to take a comedy anime influnced storyline> and the westren with asian artists (not usually japanese sometimes korean or hongkong artists) and these mimic the usual anime ideas of robots and magic powers. either way they're all effected by anime.

oh btw another good cartoon is toy story watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dic_Hhnh9zg

I doubt there's much new with using Asian artists. Europe & America have been outsourcing their basic animation over there for years. Even stuff like Chip 'n' Dale had at least some of the animation done by Tokyo Movie Shinja (sp?), who also did a fair amount of Animaniacs in the 90s. There were also some Korean studios (am I right in thinking Cuckoo's Nest was Korean? No, Wikipedia says that one was Taiwan).

Then there's stuff like Inspector Gadget & Mysterious Cities of Gold. I've never figured out whether they were true Japan-France co-productions, or whether the idea came from Japan first, or quite what was happening. The production was definitely in Japan, but the exec producers were the higher ups in DIC, who were French (at least they were for Gadget, it's been a while since I've watched the credits for Cities of Gold). Yet Gadget was clearly based on the American character of Maxwell Smart, going so far as borrowing a couple of his catchphrases and, memorably, his voice.

Equally, Spain's Dogtanian & Willy Fog may have been co-productions, but most of the animation was in Japan I think. Yet Willy Fog was sponsored by Iberia, the Spanish national airline.

I vaguely remember the Buzz Lightyear cartoon. I think it came along just as I stopped watching Disney TV output (except for the rare episode of Lilo & Stitch I might stumble across).

DW

There were also some Korean studios (am I right in thinking Cuckoo's Nest was Korean? No, Wikipedia says that one was Taiwan).

Your probally thinking of Rough Draft, who does work on most American cartoons.

I don't that animation in America has gone downhill to say but rather going towards a different style than what we have been seen in the last 5 - 10 years.

Also, the DC Universe Movies have been the best animated movies I have seen from that studio in a long while.

A Squirrel and Hedgehog Speaking of Korean anime. I started watching this yesturday, no subtitles so I have NO idea whats going on but...I kind of get the gist of it. It's propaganda no doubt with the Koreans being the squirrels and Hedgehogs and...I THINK the Japanese are the weasels and mice/rats.
The Japanese get mowed down in the hundreds every episode but so far only 2 Koreans have been shown to die and both have been from kamikaze.

It's just a fad, all cartoons will be 3D CGI in the next decade anyway

It's just a fad, all cartoons will be 3D CGI in the next decade anyway

NO, NO They won't many animtion fans DO NOT LIKE CGI, 2D animation will never die, it will just be used less frequently & then theres places like Japan that will always use more 2d then CGI for there toons because thats what they prefere to use. But yea Disney even said they would Release 1 2D Animated Film a year in theatres ,(starting this year with Princess & the frog) that doesn't sound like 2d is Dying to me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzS09DUlek

<strong class="quote-title" B Vulpix wrote:

---

A Squirrel and Hedgehog Speaking of Korean anime. I started watching this yesturday, no subtitles so I have NO idea whats going on but...I kind of get the gist of it. It's propaganda no doubt with the Koreans being the squirrels and Hedgehogs and...I THINK the Japanese are the weasels and mice/rats.
The Japanese get mowed down in the hundreds every episode but so far only 2 Koreans have been shown to die and both have been from kamikaze.

Not that I support such propaganda, but the gesture is understandable. The early parts of the 20th century had the Koreans under Japanese rule; they were forced to strip and deny their cultural heritage and instead take up Japanese culture. This ruling went on for decades, so their resentment towards the Japanese continues on, even today. It doesn't help that the Japanese doesn't play nice either. For examples, a TVTropes article detailing Japanese manga/Anime/Media/whatever and their treatment of Koreans as a response to real life events pertaining the two countries.

Speaking as a Korean, I do feel for my nation, but I was born waaaaay later when this occured and have spent most of my life in the US, so I admit, this doesn't outright affect me. But I personally do get a bit huffy when people completely blame the Koreans for not moving on (not that I'm accusing you, D B) when currently, it's clearly an issue that is coming from BOTH ends. Naturally, I'll just be neutral and stay out of it because while I rather they hug and make up, I completely get that this is something that is beyond a simple "apology". Especially considering how prideful we Asians can get.

Err...to stay on topic, I personally see Anime = Cartoons. But I can understand the concern of Anime "overtaking" Western Animations. Anime in American could largely been seen as a fad, maybe a cultural impact, but I don't see it replacing Western cartoons anytime soon. There's still plenty of them out there and more being churned every year. I'm not worried.

Oooh!... god damn it Neo, when I came to I realized I've been mesmerized by TVTropes for the last hour and a half thanks to that link of yours!

can't... stop... clicking... links....

You can never escape TVTropes for long.

Oh, pff. You just haven't troped enough. I used to trope up everyday after work, but now the stuff barely effects me anymore. I've had to move up to more powerful stuff, like AgonyBooth recaps or Cracked.com.

Not that I support such propaganda, but the gesture is understandable. The early parts of the 20th century had the Koreans under Japanese rule; they were forced to strip and deny their cultural heritage and instead take up Japanese culture.

Huh, I didn't know this! That sounds alot like the premise of Code Geass where the Japanese was taken over by the Brittanian Empire, stripped of their nationality, and was called 11s and treated as second class citizens; I wonder if this is where the creators came out with the idea for CG?

OH I certainly doubt that!

You forget that the main character had a glowing eye and a large harem by his side. XD

Oooh!... god damn it Neo, when I came to I realized I've been mesmerized by TVTropes for the last hour and a half thanks to that link of yours!

can't... stop... clicking... links....

You keep clicking 'em until you're immune to their lure, dearie.

Huh, I didn't know this! That sounds alot like the premise of Code Geass where the Japanese was taken over by the Brittanian Empire, stripped of their nationality, and was called 11s and treated as second class citizens; I wonder if this is where the creators came out with the idea for CG?

It's a powerful issue that has made Koreans very prideful of their country. Research and you can read more between the animosity of the Koreans and Japanese. Hell, I've heard they even argued over whose country's name would go first on the title for the 2002 World Cup!

(It's a powerful issue that has made Koreans very prideful of their country. Research and you can read more between the animosity of the Koreans and Japanese. Hell, I've heard they even argued over whose country's name would go first on the title for the 2002 World Cup! )

i know japanese study korean in their schools, and the languages are close. there's so much similarity between the two i thought they were in good terms, but i can understand if the koreans are being prideful against the japanese, they do measure up to everything japan can do. in manufactering, construction and development and also in pop culture... you can notice korea racing with japan,...
there's even korean manga and anime, the art and style isn't that far from the japanese but we hardly see the well made korean products leave their land.. japan has the upper hand though, it has the resources, advertisement and experiance korea lacks now... but who knows of the future.

right now though, i'm just trying to figure out why westeren cartoons are loosing their character and starting to take a japanese anime appearance?

*logs in and tries again*

Because some exec somewhere decided that anime seems uber-popular these days, so their cartoons might as well emulate them.

DW

Brazillian Rip-Off makes me laugh

Ratatoing

The Little Cars

The Little Panda Fighter

i know japanese study korean in their schools, and the languages are close. there's so much similarity between the two i thought they were in good terms, but i can understand if the koreans are being prideful against the japanese, they do measure up to everything japan can do. in manufactering, construction and development and also in pop culture... you can notice korea racing with japan,...
there's even korean manga and anime, the art and style isn't that far from the japanese but we hardly see the well made korean products leave their land.. japan has the upper hand though, it has the resources, advertisement and experiance korea lacks now... but who knows of the future.

That's because Korea and Japan are essentially neighbors. There's only just water between us. They're able to influence/inspired and expore/import or whatever between each other. Their dislike for one another has less to do with them wishing to wipe the other off the map (I will not make a North Korean joke), but just them childishly pointing fingers and playing the blame game. In some weird way, they have a mutual, reluctant symbiotic relationship with one another.

Also, I'm a little curious on what you mean by Korea's "lack of " when it comes to resources and experience in terms of animation.

(Also, I'm a little curious on what you mean by Korea's "lack of " when it comes to resources and experience in terms of animation)

japan was more sucessful in advertising its products (anime - manga - movies - music) it also seems to support its artists more so than the koreans support theirs. don't get it the wrong way, it just seems japan has more money to make it big. also i didn't see a lot of korean anime or manga that can surpass japanese animation, their artists really need better motivations and care if they want to walk that path.

anyway, let me understand this, koreans aren't trying to out run japan?
well i don't know of their total history, it just seemed like they were competeing to me.

japan was more sucessful in advertising its products (anime - manga - movies - music) it also seems to support its artists more so than the koreans support theirs. don't get it the wrong way, it just seems japan has more money to make it big. also i didn't see a lot of korean anime or manga that can surpass japanese animation, their artists really need better motivations and care if they want to walk that path.

anyway, let me understand this, koreans aren't trying to out run japan?
well i don't know of their total history, it just seemed like they were competeing to me.

Actually, there's just as much horror stories on the lack of support or proper wage and health care for many Japanese artists who work in grouped studios. One of the prime reasons Japan IS making money in the animated industry is because they have constant support from other countries who want in all the good (after some stories here and there of Anime over in their country not making as much money as they once did). Anime in the US is a HUGE fad that while not up to par today, still lingers.

Korea may not have gotten in the bandwagon, but it sounds like you think they're inexperienced in terms of animation. They're one of the leading and just as recently, have taken to making their own series (though they've been doing this for a good while now). Oh, and working on the gazillion Western Animations series you see before you.

I also don't get what you mean by Korea trying to "outrun" the Japanese. You make it sound as though Korea's the only one of the two country that is trying to bash Japan to the ground or something. I'm sorry to ask, but I need more elaborations because I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.

See, what did I tell ya? Huffy.

(See, what did I tell ya? Huffy)
who's huffy?
well anyway about your debate, the japanese produce better animes than the koreans, sorry but that's the truth. they have better planning, they know where to get the right support and how to mange better. i haven't seen a single korean work that surpasses the top japanese animation, take this for an example... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENR6vUqeZpo&feature=related
and there's better animations than this, such as ghost in the shell and macross plus.
the koreans are animating for the west, that's as far as they went world wide. not a lot of people know koreans make anime and manga even, that's how closed up they are, unless they advance their methods and better their artists with better tools, they will be behind japan. and the reason i'm comparing japan with korea, is because like in my topic here, anime is dominating the cartoon world, you have to get as good or better to survive.

i know my words come off strong, i'm just sad they don't use their full potential , they are talented more so than many, it's just they seem still fresh in the game.
i really apologize if i anger you, i know how you can get passionate when someone from the outside talks about your people. i just hope you understand that i'm not offending either culture i'm simply giving my opinion on how they might better themselves. doesn't mean i'm right, just means i think i'm right

(See, what did I tell ya? Huffy)
who's huffy?
well anyway about your debate, the japanese produce better animes than the koreans, sorry but that's the truth. they have better planning, they know where to get the right support and how to mange better. i haven't seen a single korean work that surpasses the top japanese animation, take this for an example... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENR6vUqeZpo&feature=related
and there's better animations than this, such as ghost in the shell and macross plus.
the koreans are animating for the west, that's as far as they went world wide. not a lot of people know koreans make anime and manga even, that's how closed up they are, unless they advance their methods and better their artists with better tools, they will be behind japan. and the reason i'm comparing japan with korea, is because like in my topic here, anime is dominating the cartoon world, you have to get as good or better to survive.

i know my words come off strong, i'm just sad they don't use their full potential , they are talented more so than many, it's just they seem still fresh in the game.
i really apologize if i anger you, i know how you can get passionate when someone from the outside talks about your people. i just hope you understand that i'm not offending either culture i'm simply giving my opinion on how they might better themselves. doesn't mean i'm right, just means i think i'm right

The huffy comment was for me then it was for you. An in-joke to my first topic dealing with the Korean issue, don't pay any mind to it. And don't worry, I'm not offended, just a bit irked.

If there is any "lacking" in Korean animations, whether it be just how they draw or in terms of story, you have to keep this mind: it's only just recently that these guys are working out their creativity. They've had cartoons in the past, but it's just now that they're going lengths to create their own stories and movies at this point in time when they haven't had the chance prior. Naturally, such results aren't going to produce Grade A materials at the drop of a hat. You're basically stating they're not trying hard enough which is far from the truth; there's big gaps and obstacles they have to pass to get where they are. Rome wasn't built in a day. In short, you can't fault them for trying. Not to mention they obviously sport the talent to handle the many different art forms of Western Cartoons and oh yes, some Japanese cartoons, too. I don't think you're giving Koreans enough credit.

And with that, I'm ending this as I've already gotten WAY off-topic.

Since we're still on Korea. I watched that squirrel cartoon all the way through...well at least all 26 episodes on youtube.

But I DON'T KNOW WHATS GOING OOOON. Please, anyone, if you understand any of it just....i dunno give me a summary or something. I know its propaganda but for some reason I ...actually like it? I'd probably hate it if I could understand it.

(it's only just recently that these guys are working out their creativity. They've had cartoons in the past, but it's just now that they're going lengths to create their own stories and movies at this point in time when they haven't had the chance prior)

i agree that's why i said they seem fresh in the game, yet they are starting strong. actually ... i find their movies and tv series more fun than japanese ones, the problem with japanese drama is they fantasise a lot, koreans are more natural in their acting .....although japan still out ranks them in cartoons.

(Not to mention they obviously sport the talent to handle the many different art forms of Western Cartoons and oh yes, some Japanese cartoons, too. I don't think you're giving Koreans enough credit.)

I truely respect them, but i won't go easy on them, they are very good now too, they could make the effeort to introduce themselves to the world. it troubles me that not a lot of people know of korea's achivements, i seen a lot of good work that should be internationally known.

(And with that, I'm ending this as I've already gotten WAY off-topic)

yeah, but it was fun debating with you. ...i continued till here cause... well, i always like to have the last word

I think what's killing cartoons are the network's changing their strategies to try and aim their shows at teenyboppers who drool over boybands, kid rappers, and teen starlets. Too much live action on my cartoon channels. I excuse game shows though.