First off, Matt, I appreciate you calling my faith and convictions ridiculous; second, yes, America has never been a Christian nation persay buy many of the ideas of our forefathers were brought about because of the Christanish philsophies. The way I always felt is that when the soul knows freedom, the whole being of a man shall want it too, and feel that's what the founding fathers understood. However, not all them, were Christians, Jefferson and Franklin were pretty much deists, and those that were knew how bad it was in England with the forced Anglicanism and that's why they put that in the Constitution, and rightly so.

However, though I didn't hear the President's speech, I did read the part in the article; and yes, these people, are making a mountain outta of a mole hill, and the President is right that many people of different faiths, or lack thereof, have made this country as great as it is. Though, once again, you can't deny the effects Christianity and its offshoots have made to America.

From my point of view, it's funny how America, founded on the idea of having no main religion has become so religious - compared to the UK (and specifically England I guess) which used to be extremely religious and now just doesn't care.

Also calling a religion "ridiculous" is a pretty dangerous thing to do no matter the situation D: Especially one as large as Christianity when such a large amount of this forum's user base belongs to it.

The irony from matthayter's post is so thick you can't drink it through a straw.

I think its more rediculous to not believe in God; or at least a higher being.

Well with America being founded for religious freedoms, it only makes sense that there will be non believers. So I don't think anything Obama said was bad.

From my point of view, it's funny how America, founded on the idea of having no main religion has become so religious - compared to the UK (and specifically England I guess) which used to be extremely religious and now just doesn't care.

But I think that's it, Trudi. England, France, etc. that was in the "Holy Roman" Empire and even after the Reformation, where they had to belong to "Christianity," got sick of it because it was forced down their throats; however, in America, where most of it existence people were not forced to be a Christian or any other faith, America, while being very religious, can still move freely in it. I don't think I'm really wording it well, but it's kinda like a kid whose parents are really restrictive, the kid is gonna end up rebelling against rules. However, a kid, whose parents were neither too lose or strict, is more likely to stay with their parents teachings or fairly close to it.

A religion-themed topic on the interwebs...Nothing particuarly good can come of this thread, it's wording and the conflict that may ensue. o.o;

Any time anything like this comes up, first thing that comes to mind is that "In God we trust" is printed on American notes, which I know probably isn't very significant to most people, but personally that's always bugged me.

A religion-themed topic on the interwebs...Nothing particuarly good can come of this thread, it's wording and the conflict that may ensue. o.o;

I concur, but I had to say something. Usually, I try to stay outta religious or political topics here cuz they always seem to tear our little family apart each time they rear their heads here even though I have strong convictions in both areas.

"First off, Matt, I appreciate you calling my faith and convictions ridiculous"

I take it that was sarcasm. Anyway, I find various aspects of Christianity absurd, especially in the abscence of scientific proof of them. Perhaps the comment might not have been necessary, but still, I get the impression that Christianity doesn't exactly attract those who think critically about what they're conforming to, (I could be wrong about that though, and it's not like I'm ruling that out) so I thought of it that way when seeing people accuse Obama of "misrepresenting" US heritage by pointing out that US diversity extends to nonbelievers.

"America has never been a Christian nation persay buy many of the ideas of our forefathers were brought about because of the Christanish philsophies."

What makes you think it was "because" of them? What if similar ideas may have come about without religious influence, or through the influence of another religion? You talk about these "ideas" as if they're somehow copyrights of Christianity; what if they were simply ideas whose time had come?

Oh, and SonicV2, where exactly is this "irony"? You say it's thick and don't seem to back that up at all...

You got upset at the fact that a few intolerant Christians got mad that Obama acknowledged Atheists.

But then just idiotically say that Christians are ridiculous because of their religion. Doing the same that you complained about.

Ironic, hypocritical, etc. You choose. lol

I think its more rediculous to not believe in God; or at least a higher being.

There's not a single shred of documented peer reviewed evidence that a God or higher power exists at all, so to call it more ridiculous to not believe in God is like saying it's more ridiculous to not believe in Superman than it is too believe he exists, just because there are stories about him.

You got upset at the fact that a few intolerant Christians got mad that Obama acknowledged Atheists.

But then just idiotically say that Christians are ridiculous because of their religion. Doing the same that you complained about.

Ironic, hypocritical, etc. You choose. lol

So if person A insults person B and person B insults person A back, does that make person B a hypocrite, when what they're doing is in response to person A?

Granted, maybe it isn't very practical, but I doubt it's ironic or hypocritical.

More like

Person A insults Person B

Person B gets pissy and complain about being insulted to People C D & E and then goes ahead and insult Person B behind B's back while upsetting People C D & E because they don't want to hear it.

What makes you think it was "because" of them? What if similar ideas may have come about without religious influence, or through the influence of another religion? You talk about these "ideas" as if they're somehow copyrights of Christianity; what if they were simply ideas whose time had come?

Because of the Fathers faith, because you can find many a quote of their feelings on God and his role. George Washington, when he took the Oath of Office, added in the words "So help me God" even though it was not written into the Constitution. One of James Madison's, the Father of the Constitiution, influences was John Witherspoon, and finally, Benjamin Franklin, who was a deist, suggested that they start the Contintental Congress meetings with prayer for guidance are many of the reason why I believe it was Judeo-Christian philosophy that played a big part in their decisions.

What makes you think it was "because" of them? What if similar ideas may have come about without religious influence, or through the influence of another religion? You talk about these "ideas" as if they're somehow copyrights of Christianity; what if they were simply ideas whose time had come?

Because of the Fathers faith, because you can find many a quote of their feelings on God and his role. George Washington, when he took the Oath of Office, added in the words "So help me God" even though it was not written into the Constitution. One of James Madison's, the Father of the Constitiution, influences was John Witherspoon, and finally, Benjamin Franklin, who was a deist, suggested that they start the Contintental Congress meetings with prayer for guidance are many of the reason why I believe it was Judeo-Christian philosophy that played a big part in their decisions.

That's false

More like

Person A insults Person B

Person B gets pissy and complain about being insulted to People C D & E and then goes ahead and insult Person B behind B's back while upsetting People C D & E because they don't want to hear it.

I take it you somewhat misworded the post; how could someone insult themselves behind their own back?

In any case, I'm guessing what you're trying to say is not to retaliate collectively; sounds reasonable enough. It's just that I tend to associate Christianity with not caring if atheists are offended (note that it seems to be most often Christians who associate atheism with Hitler and Stalin, and atheists who complain about it, and don't particularily see Christians distancing themselves from that) and in turn tend to offend Christians in turn; but I'm willing to consider that how I see things isn't necessarily the case...

This topic is made of fail. Large amounts of fail, with a dash of controversy thrown in for good measure.

People who got upset with the inclusion in Obamas speech need to stop being self-rightous morons. People who got all giddy with glee at being mentioned in Obamas speech need to stop thinking it's some great victory over the religious overlords. People are people regardless of their colour, gender, age, beliefs, all that jazz. I've said this before and I have no doubt I'll still be saying this on my death bed, but if I slice each one of you open, I'm gonna find the exact same thing.

There we go. This topic is now done.

modz lock this plz

I eeked so loud when he mentioned every religion other than Christianity, and to top it off, he mentioned non-believers, which would be myself. It's odd to say that that was something else that I myself got out of that historic day, but it's about god damn time, is all I can say.

To all those jerk off's calling out to Obama ala "HOW DARE YOU", all I can say is I HOPE YOUR GENERATION DIES OFF ALREADY SO WE CAN HAVE TRUE FREAKIN' EQUALITY IN THIS GOD DAMN WORLD.

*ahems and walks off*

EDIT -

GyserHog wrote:

---

People who got all giddy with glee at being mentioned in Obamas speech need to stop thinking it's some great victory over the religious overlords.

Woah now, cowboy. It's JUST as empowering to finally be acknowledged by the most powerful person that runs this supposed "free world" of ours, to me, as it is to finally see a minority in his place, as I am also one. It was like a freakin' double whammy. I'm so glad I'm not the only one who noticed this and cheered. It feels good. It's not a "WIN AGAINST GOD HIMSELF, SCREW YOU MAN, HAHAHAHA", and then we flipped the bird towards the sky - no - quite frankly, it was... relieving that this man remembers that non-believers are patriots of this country. And it felt good.

I don't look down to people who believe. I personally believe it's silly to, but I will never hold it against anyone or hold anyone back from practicing their beliefs, s'long as they leave me out of it. It's always irritating, however, that as peaceful as we mostly are about atheism, that we, 90% of the time, don't get that same peaceful nod back our way by the mainstream media and every folks. That's all we ask; acknowledge us and let us be, we have nothing against anyone, and we're not going to rape your beliefs, or dethrown them.

What makes you think it was "because" of them? What if similar ideas may have come about without religious influence, or through the influence of another religion? You talk about these "ideas" as if they're somehow copyrights of Christianity; what if they were simply ideas whose time had come?

Because of the Fathers faith, because you can find many a quote of their feelings on God and his role. George Washington, when he took the Oath of Office, added in the words "So help me God" even though it was not written into the Constitution. One of James Madison's, the Father of the Constitiution, influences was John Witherspoon, and finally, Benjamin Franklin, who was a deist, suggested that they start the Contintental Congress meetings with prayer for guidance are many of the reason why I believe it was Judeo-Christian philosophy that played a big part in their decisions.

Including Thomas Jefferson, who supposedly didn't like Christianity much himself?

Perhaps at the time Christianity may have been involved in the minds of the individuals the ideas came from, but I think that's more of a result of circumstances than a sign that Christianity is somehow inherent in the ideas. Who gets to say how things would have went with a certain factor changed, if you can't go back in time to change it to see how things would turn out?

What makes you think it was "because" of them? What if similar ideas may have come about without religious influence, or through the influence of
another religion? You talk about these "ideas" as if they're somehow copyrights of Christianity; what if they were simply ideas whose time had
come?

Because of the Fathers faith, because you can find many a quote of their feelings on God and his role. George Washington, when he took the Oath of Office,
added in the words "So help me God" even though it was not written into the Constitution. One of James Madison's, the Father of the
Constitiution, influences was John Witherspoon, and finally, Benjamin Franklin, who was a deist, suggested that they start the Contintental Congress meetings
with prayer for guidance are many of the reason why I believe it was Judeo-Christian philosophy that played a big part in their decisions.

That's false

Well, I stand corrected. Additionally, I can applaud Gyser's post.

GyserHog wrote:

---

People who got all giddy with glee at being mentioned in Obamas speech need to stop thinking it's some great victory over the religious overlords.

Woah now, cowboy. It's JUST as empowering to finally be acknowledged by the most powerful person that runs this supposed "free world" of ours, to me, as it is to finally see a minority in his place, as I am also one. It was like a freakin' double whammy. I'm so glad I'm not the only one who noticed this and cheered. It feels good. It's not a "WIN AGAINST GOD HIMSELF, SCREW YOU MAN, HAHAHAHA", and then we flipped the bird towards the sky - no - quite frankly, it was... relieving that this man remembers that non-believers are patriots of this country. And it felt good.

I didn't mean everyone who was excited by it. I meant all the people that were "WIN AGAINST GOD HIMSELF, SCREW YOU MAN, HAHAHAHA".

GyserHog wrote:

---

People who got all giddy with glee at being mentioned in Obamas speech need to stop thinking it's some great victory over the religious overlords.

Woah now, cowboy. It's JUST as empowering to finally be acknowledged by the most powerful person that runs this supposed "free world" of ours, to me, as it is to finally see a minority in his place, as I am also one. It was like a freakin' double whammy. I'm so glad I'm not the only one who noticed this and cheered. It feels good. It's not a "WIN AGAINST GOD HIMSELF, SCREW YOU MAN, HAHAHAHA", and then we flipped the bird towards the sky - no - quite frankly, it was... relieving that this man remembers that non-believers are patriots of this country. And it felt good.

I didn't mean everyone who was excited by it. I meant all the people that were "WIN AGAINST GOD HIMSELF, SCREW YOU MAN, HAHAHAHA".

And just WHO is talking like this?

Someone is offended by something some other guy said.

Headline news.

Seriously. It doesn't matter who's offended by it, I doubt a civil war will be started because Obama claimed America is strong because different kinds of people live here. Just like him saying it wont cause acceptance and equality. The fact that it's being reported strong enough for this topic to exist is just proof that media thrives on conflict, even if it has to create it where there is none.

Now, reading it doesn't make me upset and I doubt many people will be "He's right!" about it, so in the end it's all futile and useless fluff.

Afterall, "dude said this. Dude didn't like what other dude said" is not what I consider interesting news.

Any time anything like this comes up, first thing that comes to mind is that "In God we trust" is printed on American notes, which I know probably isn't very significant to most people, but personally that's always bugged me.

That doesn't bug me, it always makes me happy.

Any time anything like this comes up, first thing that comes to mind is that "In God we trust" is printed on American notes, which I know probably isn't very significant to most people, but personally that's always bugged me.

That doesn't bug me, it always makes me happy.

Yeah that part isn't much of a big deal; I've heard it appearing on something as official as currency might give the impression of favoritism towards monotheism, but that bit is only symbolic if even that. Ironically, I've heard some religious people don't like how the word "god" is placed on something as "superficial" as money; while I don't quite agree I find it refreshing to see that the same thing is being criticized from different perspectives. I think including "under god" in the pledge is a bit more questionable, if only because it associates patriotism with monotheism. Hmm, I wonder if there's religious people who don't like "god" being associated with national loyalty...

Personally, I was extremely gladdened by the fact that Obama mentioned almost every other major world religion besides Christianity (bar Buddhism) in his inauguration speech and also mentioned 'non-believers' as well (which, I assume, refers to both atheists and agnostics alike). It's just such a refreshingly inclusive attitude to have that not all previous US Presidents have embraced (many of them being devout Christians). I remember reading somewhere about a comment Bush Sr. made while in office about how he was uncertain if atheists are to be considered as rightfully being American citizens. Now I ain't an atheist, hell, I PASSIONATELY believe in the existence of my own conception of what could be called 'God', but I deeply respect the beliefs (and lack thereof) of other people. ALL people have something worthwhile to contribute to this planet, be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, agnostics or whatever. If all people thought in the same way, then someone just isn't thinking. Without diversity, social freedom could never truly flourish. So, yeah. I found that alleged remark by Bush Sr. to be F*****G DISGUSTING and, in contradistinction to such inflammatory remarks, I found Obama's inclusion of 'non-believers' to be deeply satisfying.

Personally, I was extremely gladdened by the fact that Obama mentioned almost every other major world religion besides Christianity (bar Buddhism) in his inauguration speech and also mentioned 'non-believers' as well (which, I assume, refers to both atheists and agnostics alike). It's just such a refreshingly inclusive attitude to have that not all previous US Presidents have embraced (many of them being devout Christians). I remember reading somewhere about a comment Bush Sr. made while in office about how he was uncertain if atheists are to be considered as rightfully being American citizens. Now I ain't an atheist, hell, I PASSIONATELY believe in the existence of my own conception of what could be called 'God', but I deeply respect the beliefs (and lack thereof) of other people. ALL people have something worthwhile to contribute to this planet, be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, agnostics or whatever. If all people thought in the same way, then someone just isn't thinking. Without diversity, social freedom could never truly flourish. So, yeah. I found that alleged remark by Bush Sr. to be F*****G DISGUSTING and, in contradistinction to such inflammatory remarks, I found Obama's inclusion of 'non-believers' to be deeply satisfying.

Well said. Buddhism wasn't the only major religion not mentioned, though; he didn't mention Sikhism either. But I doubt that was to leave it and Buddhism out; just didn't mention them for whatever reason.

BTW, is that young Barack in your avatar?

Well said. Buddhism wasn't the only major religion not mentioned, though; he didn't mention Sikhism either. But I doubt that was to leave it and Buddhism out; just didn't mention them for whatever reason.

Sikhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism etc. are not major world religions, at least not in terms of number of adherents anyway. Honestly though, I think Obama just forgot to mention Buddhism, but it's still all good IMO.

BTW, is that young Barack in your avatar?

LOLWUT? Dude, that's me.

Well said. Buddhism wasn't the only major religion not mentioned, though; he didn't mention Sikhism either. But I doubt that was to leave it and Buddhism out; just didn't mention them for whatever reason.

Sikhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism etc. are not major world religions, at least not in terms of number of adherents anyway. Honestly though, I think Obama just forgot to mention Buddhism, but it's still all good IMO.

BTW, is that young Barack in your avatar?

LOLWUT? Dude, that's me.

Well, to be fair, it would probably take far too long to mention all religions and I'm sure even an inauguaration speech needs to have its time limit.

Well said. Buddhism wasn't the only major religion not mentioned, though; he didn't mention Sikhism either. But I doubt that was to leave it and Buddhism out; just didn't mention them for whatever reason.

Sikhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism etc. are not major world religions, at least not in terms of number of adherents anyway. Honestly though, I think Obama just forgot to mention Buddhism, but it's still all good IMO.

BTW, is that young Barack in your avatar?

LOLWUT? Dude, that's me.

Well, to be fair, it would probably take far too long to mention all religions and I'm sure even an inauguaration speech needs to have its time limit.

Exactly. I completely agree with you. Mentioning the names of the major world religions would take only a matter of seconds, but every religion including minor and extinct ones? That'd take FOREVER, man. Or close to it anyway.

Well, the extinct ones would be pointless to mention as, well, no body follows them except for historical purposes. Speaking of which, does anybody know if anybody still worships the ancient Greek and Roman gods like Zeus and Jupiter?

Speaking of which, does anybody know if anybody still worships the ancient Greek and Roman gods like Zeus and Jupiter?

Yeah, I still worship 'em. Cool guys!

LOL, I mean is there still a somewhat sizeable following of them?

Well said. Buddhism wasn't the only major religion not mentioned, though; he didn't mention Sikhism either. But I doubt that was to leave it and Buddhism out; just didn't mention them for whatever reason.

Sikhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism etc. are not major world religions, at least not in terms of number of adherents anyway. Honestly though, I think Obama just forgot to mention Buddhism, but it's still all good IMO.

Actually, I thought I recalled from grade 8 social studies Sikhism being a major religion on the same level as Buddhism. Guess I remember wrong. o.o

Actually, I thought I recalled from grade 8 social studies Sikhism being a major religion on the same level as Buddhism. Guess I remember wrong. o.o

Sikhism is somewhat on a similar level as Buddhism in terms of content, but in terms of number of adherents? Nup, no way.

I eeked so loud when he mentioned every religion other than Christianity, and to top it off, he mentioned non-believers, which would be myself. It's odd to say that that was something else that I myself got out of that historic day, but it's about god damn time, is all I can say.

To all those jerk off's calling out to Obama ala "HOW DARE YOU", all I can say is I HOPE YOUR GENERATION DIES OFF ALREADY SO WE CAN HAVE TRUE FREAKIN' EQUALITY IN THIS GOD DAMN WORLD.

*ahems and walks off*

EDIT -

GyserHog wrote:

---

People who got all giddy with glee at being mentioned in Obamas speech need to stop thinking it's some great victory over the religious overlords.

Woah now, cowboy. It's JUST as empowering to finally be acknowledged by the most powerful person that runs this supposed "free world" of ours, to me, as it is to finally see a minority in his place, as I am also one. It was like a freakin' double whammy. I'm so glad I'm not the only one who noticed this and cheered. It feels good. It's not a "WIN AGAINST GOD HIMSELF, SCREW YOU MAN, HAHAHAHA", and then we flipped the bird towards the sky - no - quite frankly, it was... relieving that this man remembers that non-believers are patriots of this country. And it felt good.

I don't look down to people who believe. I personally believe it's silly to, but I will never hold it against anyone or hold anyone back from practicing their beliefs, s'long as they leave me out of it. It's always irritating, however, that as peaceful as we mostly are about atheism, that we, 90% of the time, don't get that same peaceful nod back our way by the mainstream media and every folks. That's all we ask; acknowledge us and let us be, we have nothing against anyone, and we're not going to rape your beliefs, or dethrown them.

Absolutely massive word. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Well, the extinct ones would be pointless to mention as, well, no body follows them except for historical purposes. Speaking of which, does anybody know if anybody still worships the ancient Greek and Roman gods like Zeus and Jupiter?

I have a friend from Greece who says there's still some people there who worship Zeus, etc. but they're definitely a small minority.

Hmm, interesting, I didn't think it would be too big of a community.

It is refreshing that he said it instead of being or pandering to bigots like most other modern presidents.

The only reason this article even got published is that it repeatedly mentions blacks. Also, LOL @ that guy claiming abortion as a race issue.

I hadn't heard about the one, Vec - although it wouldn't shock me. I was watching the UK's airing of Washington Journal last week, and the amount of callers who called Obama a "murderer" and the lady who said "Obama never met a child he didn't want to abort" left me cold.

I get very worried by that black and white, highly polarised attitude in the US - the idea that if you're not praying every night or openly declaring your faith every day, you're an amoral heathen who's going to slaughter the decent believers in their beds because you must have no moral code (the best comment I heard last week was someone asking if you think that you're God yourself because you have the nerve to decide for yourself what you think is wrong, so you must be crazy if you're a non-believer - and no, I wasn't watching Pat Robertson at the time).

It made a change after eight years of Bush to hear a Commander in Chief openly acknowledge that other faiths - or lack thereof - have some validity under law. For a nation that allegedly separates church and state, "In God we trust" om the banknotes and other little things like that've always bothered me, too - I'm increasingly looking at the US as a fundamentalist state and I've got my fingers crossed that someone'll stamp on the right-wing Christian lobby fairly hard.

Not including nonbelievers is like not including nonpricechopper card member, pricechopper member card holders. PRAY TO GOD TO GET YOUR FREE ROTICERY CHICKEN

It is the only reason to exclude people. So they'll do what you want