Shivapur is a small Indian village about 24 kilometres from Pune in the state of Maharashtra. In this village, a phenomenon is enacted from time to time that utterly baffles scientists. There is a certain stone in this village that is related to a tale about a Muslim Sufi saint known as Qamar Ali who lived in this village approximately 6 centuries ago. The story goes that Qamar Ali was born into a family of middle-class Muslims whose men prided themselves on their muscular prowess. Qamar Ali, unlike his aggressive older brothers, was introspective and gentle. When he was scarcely six, he became a disciple of a Sufi Pir (great teacher) who lived nearby and spent his days in meditation and fasting. Before long, throngs of devotees began to flock to his doorstep drawn by the young Sufi mystic's compassion and miraculous powers of healing. Qamar Ali died in his late teens but as he lay on his deathbed, he requested that a circular stone weighing 200 pounds be placed near his tomb. According to the legend, he said: "If eleven men place their right index fingers under the stone and then jointly call my name, I will cause it to rise higher than their heads. Otherwise, neither singly nor together will they be able to move it more than two feet off the ground. Let it be a symbol," he said to his brothers, "a reminder of my message that spiritual power is greater than brute strength. As Allah the Merciful has loved you, so should you love all men of every caste and creed. For we are all brothers on the same journey. Think of this when you call my name and raise the stone."
Although Qamar Ali was born as a Muslim, apparently the 11 participants required to lift the heavy stone above the ground do not have to profess adherence to any particular faith - Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, agnostics, atheists etc. are all welcome to participate in the lifting of the stone. However, for reasons I am unaware of, females cannot participate as the stone will not then rise into the air. Both men and women are free to attempt to lift the stone by hand, but the stone is so heavy that no-one who has attempted to lift it above the ground by hand alone has been successful.
As soon as 11 men stoop, place the index fingers of their right hands under the rim of the rock, count to three (this is optional) and then utter "Qamar Ali Darvesh!" the stone, like a living thing, floats up in the air, a foot above their heads. The men then scatter frantically as it falls to the ground with an enormous thud several seconds after it has floated in the air.
The participants in this activity are randomly selected, so the process does not appear to be rigged. Also, this activity has occurred frequently in Shivapura for many decades now and researchers are still unable to explain how the event occurs. Lamasery monks in Tibet have been known to levitate a massive rock at the entrance of a cave, in response to a particular volume, pitch and vibration of drums and horns. Does sonic resonance force the Shivapur stone to rise? If so, a series of similar words uttered at the same pitch and volume as "Qamar Ali Darvesh" should bring about an identical result. It doesn't. What do you think's going on?
It looks like they just threw it
The circular stone in question weighs approximately 70 kilograms. That's a pretty damn heavy stone to lift even with two hands, let alone throw into the air. Yet after the particular parameters outlined in the first post of this thread are met, the stone feels far lighter in weight. One of the participants even states that the stone felt as light as styrofoam. It floats about a foot above their heads, apparently even spins slightly and then rapidly tumbles back down to the ground as the men involved in the activity quickly move away from the vicinity of the stone.
It's 11 men, that's like 6&1/2 kg for each. I'm pretty sure I could fling a 6kg object above my head.
It's ridiculously easy to just stage this and there aren't any real reputable sources.
"One of the participants even states that the stone felt as light as styrofoam. " That's because 10 other men are lifting it up. -_-;
It's... just.... PHYSICS.
"It floats..."
I saw the video clip. It did not float. It looked exactly the way a thrown stone should look.
"It's 11 men, that's like 6&1/2 kg for each. I'm pretty sure I could fling a 6kg object above my head."
The total weight of the stone can be divided into 6 and a half kilos for each of the 11 men, but they're not flinging the stone into the air. They first place their right forefingers under the stone and then utter "Qamar Ali Darvesh!", which supposedly lifts the stone upward.
"It's ridiculously easy to just stage this and there aren't any real reputable sources."
Perhaps, but anyone can see it right in front of their very eyes and any dude can participate in it.
"That's because 10 other men are lifting it up. -_-;"
The 11 men aren't actually lifting it up. I already stated that. -_-; They're only putting their right forefingers/index fingers under the stone and then uttering the name of Qamar Ali.
"I saw the video clip."
Video clip, eh? *goes to see it for himself*
Yeah, if you watch the video clip they conveniently block out the image of their index fingers underneath the rock.
When did their index fingers get conveniently blocked out? At 4:37 to about 4:39, you can see the 11 men with only their index fingers pointed in the air when the stone goes up. Dammit, that footage could've been shown in only a few seconds instead of a few minutes.
11 people can lift a 200 lb rock. Big deal. I could probably lift a 200 lb rock by myself if I could get a good enough grip. (I could definitely lift a 70 kg rock, which is only 154 lbs - inconsistent facts or are you just bad at maths?). A 200 lb deadlift (which is the sort of lift you'd do to get a rock off the ground) is by no means an impressive feat. Indeed, for an average sized, reasonably fit man it's decidedly mundane. I've seen bigger weights moved before my own eyes. The world record for such things is over 1,000 lbs. So the stone isn't really that heavy.
I don't know what video you're all talking about, but the pictures are definitely consistent with a bunch of people throwing a rock into the air. (Minor point: Mr. al Darvesh only specified that the men place their index fingers under the stone and say his name and the stone will levitate under its own power - why then would the men have their arms in the air if they were not lifting the stone themselves?) Participant testimony is fairly worthless as it's very easy for psychological effects such as confirmation bias and something akin to the placebo effect to come into play here (especially if all the participants have had a go at lifting the stone before and thus know how hard it is to move). Sorry, this strikes me as a load of old bollocks.
(I could definitely lift a 70 kg rock, which is only 154 lbs - inconsistent facts or are you just bad at maths?)
I was told the rock weighed 70 kilos and I don't know how much a kilogram is to a pound. Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the pound unit of measurement.
Protip: google can convert between most units of measurement. Just type in "x pounds in kilograms" (without quotation marks) or whatever.
Rishi, someone's gonna trick you really bad one day. Maybe me
Maybe me
A fate worse than death. 
I watched the video and just laughed because it was so normal looking. What's next, using the power of ki to make water go downhill?
This makes me think about how some people, and a higher percentage of rural poor, will believe anything religious. It makes me sympathetic that the reason is that their real lives are so terrible they have to escape to it. At least until I remember that those same people are the roots of many of the human problems in the world (conservatism, racism, sexism, and supporting those who promote war, poverty, hate, and pollution).
Praise the lord and pass the ammunition, vec.
~Rico
Sounds to me that it's less religion itself causing the problem, and more tyrannical despots taking advantage of uneducated superstitious people and using religion as a method of control. Religion, when properly understood and applied to one's life, is a boon to society.
Religions don't kill people, people kill people. Let's get this straight here. 😛
How about we move this to the marble garden before somebody gets hurt
WAAAAHHH Someone used caps it belongs in SPA!
OOOMGGGG Someone was serious it belongs in marble!
IWANNABEMOOODDD They said Sega! It belongs in south island!
If you yahoo's had your way, there would be no topics in MF Central. Sheeeessshh.
HUSH, Rico. No one wants this moved to your your forum
Clearly all threads must go into cj!
Dammit Acrio stop giving Jin ideas. 
~Rico
But you guys started talking about religion
That's for marble garden
If you want a religion thread in marble so bad. You're more than welcome to start one.
~Rico
*Falls to the floor and openly cries*
Good... good.
~Rico
The definition of conservatism sort of varies depending on what country (state/region/city/etc.) you're in Vec. o.o
Also, I file a notion to move more threads to the Hidden Palace Zone.
Rishi, just what do you base the claim that it "baffles" scientists on? It looks like simple physics to me. 11 people applying enough upward force to it while lifting it that when they let go the vertical component of the initial velocity allows it to move upwards until the acceleration due to gravity changes the direction of motion. Just because the rock doesn't seem to have motion blur when the picture was taken, doesn't mean it was "levitating"; it could mean the picture was taken at close to the point in time where the vertical component of velocity was zero, since at that point the rock would have just stopped rising and just begun to fall.
It seems like you've bought into superstition, Rishi. In and of itself that'd seem to be none of my business but I'd like to comment on it anyway. I want to let you know that the impression I get is that the less influenced by science and more influenced by non-science one's thoughts are, the more of a sheepling one becomes, and as such one is more vulnerable to all kinds of ridiculous propaganda. I've noticed so much irrationality that seems to be the result of the parasitic influence of non-science. I've noticed climate change debates where people assume that because I believe climate change is manmade it's because of the Al Gore movie... which I never even watched, except for a couple minutes' worth of it... as opposed to based on textbooks from the MUN department of geography or conversations with a chemical oceanographer, etc...; it's a damn shame that a debate primarily related to physics and chemistry has both sides so associated with non-science. Similar thing with debates about aspartame, people assume that because I trust it that must be because I'm some sort of "laissez-faire purist" (when ironically I'd say that label probably better describes most of those who deny anthropogenic climate change who I've debated with) despite that I specifically said I base my trust of it on it being recommended by doctors and nurses (in a public-healthcare hospital, go figure) and me being more inclined to trust them on that matter than some for-profit sensationalist news story.
When a story like this seems to be more easily explained with high-school level physics, why do you resort to a superstitious explanation? In the end it's up to you but it just sounds pretty illogical to me...
Floor recognizes Ultra and his notion is filed. All topics he starts will be moved to Hidden Palace Zone.
~Rico
Floor recognizes Ultra and his notion is filed. All topics he starts will be moved to Hidden Palace Zone.
~Rico
...
Bah. *storms off, ranting about conspiracies*
Ultra... I... How DARE you. I thought you a fellow stalwart conservative! Conspiracies are for the crazy liberal media!
~Rico
Ultra... I... How DARE you. I thought you a fellow stalwart conservative! Conspiracies are for the crazy liberal media!
~Rico
Justifiable paranoia is always a worthwhile goal to pursue!
Maybe not in this case though. 
Sounds to me that it's less religion itself causing the problem, and more tyrannical despots taking advantage of uneducated superstitious people and using religion as a method of control. Religion, when properly understood and applied to one's life, is a boon to society.
Religions don't kill people, people kill people. Let's get this straight here. 😛
Indeed. Well I think that the number of religions which are beneficial to society are just a few (which I expect you agree). Strict Islam and caste Hinduism being examples that I would say are easy to identify as not beneficial. But the issue is people that are exploitable because they are desperate will believe a lot of scams just because they want to. People in general believe in scams because they want to, but the desperate have more reason to and less tools to resist it with, such as education and communication with culturally diverse opinions.
The definition of conservatism sort of varies depending on what country (state/region/city/etc.) you're in Vec. o.o
Not to me. The fundamental meaning of liberal and conservative, in their struggle as competing human instincts throughout history, is that a liberal concept is based on logic that attempts to avoid tradition, convention, and viewpoint bias while conservative logic celebrates them. I attempt to think about things from a universal rather than local perspective, and think about the instincts behind the culture.
Not to me. The fundamental meaning of liberal and conservative, in their struggle as competing human instincts throughout history, is that a liberal concept is based on logic that attempts to avoid tradition, convention, and viewpoint bias while conservative logic celebrates them.
I'm not so sure about relying on an online dictionary for fundamental meanings, but what about:
- Dismissing race-IQ studies as "racism" instead of calling for further studies and more careful scientific analysis so as to see if they're valid
- Dismissing more scientifically valid gender differences as "sexism" regardless of their basis in biology and evolutionary psychology
- Labelling of anti-abortionists "woman haters" even in response to anti-abortion women, including women who are arguably reverse sexist themselves in other views
- Supporting reverse-discrimination policies like Affirmative Action while claiming it's anti-discrimination
- Being against experiments on animals even though they create treatments that save human lives, because animals are supposedly "innocent" (epsecially the cute ones) even though those not raised by humans happen to have a bit of a lawless survival-of-the-fittest structure in the wild, which wouldn't seem much more humane than the lab...
- Blaming "big oil" for high gas prices instead of the public for not cutting back on fossil fuel use enough to decrease demand
- Being against genetically engineered crops, which could save hundreds of millions of third world lives, (and arguably already have) because they're "not natural"; as if they've never used anything artificial, as if artificial things being an indirect result of the natural world doesn't make the distinction questionable, and as if real-life circumstances of "nature" (ie. survival of the fittest) are somehow something ideal
Etc... these are things considered "liberal" I strongly disagree with and I doubt these are necessarily tied to the rejection of tradition, convention, and viewpoint bias. If anything, some of them even hold back progress, or dismiss the science that would challenge society's biases. And I really doubt that rejecting such things will automatically lead you to the opinions associated with liberalism. I don't believe in tradition and convention, and while I'm biased (who isn't?) at least I feel my biases are my own, (and have more reason to than someone more wrapped up in non-science would) and I don't tend to think very highly of society's. In that sense, I guess I'd be a "liberal" by your standards, even though I have some "conservative" opinions. Personally, I think if you mean to distinguish between what avoids tradition/convention/bias and what celebrates it, the real distinction should be between science and non-science, since science works by progressively improving explanations, using unconventional ideas like special relativity if they fit better with the facts than conventional ones, and analyzing things objectively.
...
Oh, and Terg, I think the point was more so that if not for the influence of religion people probably wouldn't be as easily taken advantage of by such tyrannical despots in the first place. To say it MysteriousMaskedMan-style, "By making your child gullible to religious phoney stories and lies you are making him easy prey to vicious conmen, swindlers, bigots, dictators, and unscrupulous opportunists of all sorts." except replace the phrase "your child" with the word "anyone"
