I'll come out as one of the few people on the forum who is voting McCain. I'd rather take my chances with known evil then unknown.

That said I think both are poor choices. I'm not going to lie, I'm very bitter about this whole election. Minnesota has one of the most heated senate races in the country and therefore we have just been pounded with damned political ads since about July =|. I am sick of the damned back and forth bickering, the negative campaigns... and the ungodly amount of money EVERYONE is wasting in this damned election.

Both sides are twisted, both are corrupt, both promise us the world but will never deliver on that promise.

oh, and when I voted in 2004, I voted W in 8O... and I don't regret it DUH DUH DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH

If I could vote, I'd vote for Obama in a heartbeat. Alas, I cannot.

McCain.

Not the guy I was going for in the beginning (I was rooting for Fred Thompson), but infinitely preferable to Obama the Socialist despite his faults.

Also, Palin is about the most conservative candidate I think I've ever seen, and is precisely the kind of person I want to see OUT of my White House. That really is hurting McCain, sadly...

Oddly enough Shadow Hog, Palin's probably the only reason the race is as tight as it is. Without her, well...the conservative Republican base would be utterly morose, to put it bluntly.

(And concerning negative campaigning, am I the only one that finds it odd that Democrats are the only ones playing the race card?)

EDIT: And someone please inform Obama and the DNC that Bush isn't running for a third term.

Right after someone reminds the current ruling party that Arab Americans and Muslims are NOT terrorists (Seriously, it's the one thing that has nagged me through this campaign).

I'm either voting for Mc Cain or for the always overlooked Independent.

The racial dirt being slung around was inevitable but whatever. Both sides played the race card to a certain extent ( I think the democrats did it more >.> ) and I thnk it was more the party than the candidates themselves.
A reason why McCain's adds have been so negative is because he's running out of campaign money. On the other hand people were tossing donations at Obama left and right. I don't like Obama but I think the chances of him winning are rather large. While McCain seems to only have a chance "in theory"

One of the problems I have with Obama is that credit card donations can be made via his website...but that the verification mechanisms have been turned off (you know, AVS, or address verification system...same thing for the CSC, or the three to four-digit code on the back of a credit card).

I mean, there is NO good reason for the Obama campaign to have turned those mechanisms off. None.

The Obama campaign claims that they vet the donations after the fact, but that's hogwash. It costs far more to do that than to screen for security codes and address verification up front. And everyone knows it.

McCain wins 51 to 49. The Bradley Effect is going to be too powerful to ignore. Not to mention with McCain in office, there will be no tests of his leadership ability internationally, and while neither will probably change much, at least McCain is a socialist. Like hell I will give my money to human pollution to pay for prescription drugs they will pawn on the streets. Clear out this pre existing clause BS and it will curb the people who actually need health care because of bad luck by a wide margin. McCain is old and irrelevant, but at least his solutions aren't throw money at everything. I will say though I predict no matter who wins, they will be a 4 and out.

Here's the funny thing about racism; we have six categories of racist voters.

Racist Democrats who will vote for Obama.
Racist Democrats who will NOT vote for Obama.
Racist Republicans who will vote for Obama.
Racist Republicans who will NOT vote for Obama.
Racist Independents who will vote for Obama.
Racist Independents who will NOT vote for Obama.

I doubt there are many Republicans that will vote for Obama in huge numbers anyway, racist or no. So it would come down to the racists amongst the Democrats and the Independents...provided the Bradley Effect is as big of a factor as you think it is (and it might be, it might not...I'd wager people who aren't voting for him are doing so because of his policies and not his skin color).

Heck, despite the race card being drawn in this election, Obama wouldn't be where he is without the votes of white liberals. So hearing recent comments about racism from the likes of John Murtha only strike me as self-defeating.

I'm an Obama proponent.

I've never subscribed to the broadly conservative argument that I'd rather drive my car into a brick wall at 70 mph because I know how it will end rather than take a route whose destination I don't know.
Candidly, America needs to clean its house a bit. That is the role of nation-builders, not nation-invaders. With the global economy sharing a space with Prince Albert--that is, in the can--and the epicentre of that shockwave being the United States, it becomes readily apparent that genuine statesmanship is necessary. America is still the dealer in international politics, and everyone else are players. Now is not the time for the US to decide to be a rogue nation.
I'm not one who worships the ground on which Obama walks, and I do not characterise McCain as pure malevolence. For that matter, though, I do not consider Obama to be some kind of second coming of Karl Marx and McCain another T. Roosevelt. I'm an outsider looking in, quite convinced (probably like much of the rest of the world) that things like Obama's relation to a venom-spitting pastor, Palin's ability to nail a wolf between the eyes from a chopper, or McCain's quizzical averring that he's fighting for a bloke who is more loosely connected to plumbing than the Mario Brothers will amount to absolutely nothing in terms of capacity to govern. That is the operative word: govern. Wishing no offence to Mr McCain, his declaration that Americans are not voting for a "distributor-in-chief but a commander-in-chief" is the kind of jingoistic rhetoric than makes allies wince and rivals roll their eyes. Summarising foreign policy broadly as clouting everyone into line with military action is disheartening for the international community, which has a considerable stake in this election as well.

I've already voted Obama, because John McCain is 8 years past his relevancy-expiration date and Sarah Palin is a terrible human being.

I'm not expecting miracles from an Obama presidency, but I'm at least expecting to be able to respect the office of President once again, something I haven't been able to do for the last 8 years.

And the OBAMA = SOCIALIST nonsense is so very tired at this point. If you're calling Obama a socialist for advocating a progressive tax structure (aka rich people need to pay a higher proportion than poor people), then you might as well be calling Adam Smith (the father of the free market system who stated in his book The Wealth Of Nations "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.") a Marxist.

I'm using my freedom to not vote. I know it's important, but what really matters is that I'm so un-inspired by this election that I don't even want to be a part of it. I've had Obama, McCain, Biden and Palin interrupt my daily life with their debates, campaigns and road signs on a daily basis and after this election I really couldn't give a care and a half to who gets elected.

"Oh, but you should at least vote! It matters!"

So does my opinion on voting for people who I don't want in office. Neither appeal to me in the least, and I am not blindly saying that, I've looked into their major points.

"Just vote for Obama, he wants change and change is good!"

Um... wow, that's very un-inspiring. Do you know exactly what he's planning on changing and how it'll effect you? If you don't know, then I don't care about your opinion. Don't vote for him because of his race, just doing that is about the most racist thing I can think of. Yeah, caucasian people did that, but I honestly don't see nearly as much racism from white people, indian people, asians and puerto-rican people as I do from black people in todays society. It's not everyone, please don't take that personal, I have alot of friends who are of all races, backgrounds and colors, but none are ignorant to being racist.

"Vote for McCain, he'll save the economy!"

Um, no. he won't. What will save the economy is US making the right decisions. Not just you and me, but everyone, even those in office, at wall street, those running the oil businesses and those running international trade and production. We have a democracy (don't think democrat) and in a democracy we have the ability to be heard. Try contacting your congress man/woman or sending a letter. Enough people complain about something and you may just see a change. It still is a popular vote however, so it's up to you to convince people of your point of view.

In short, please, if you are going to vote for someone and have no legitimate reason to support them other than change or the economy or good promises from either side, then don't vote. You have that freedom. not every country has the same freedoms that we have. Then again, not every country is impacted so much from the media, much like this election has been.

And the OBAMA = SOCIALIST nonsense is so very tired at this point. If you're calling Obama a socialist for advocating a progressive tax structure (aka rich people need to pay a higher proportion than poor people), then you might as well be calling Adam Smith (the father of the free market system who stated in his book The Wealth Of Nations "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.") a Marxist.

Hint: they already do pay a higher proportion than poor people.

There IS a limit.

And the OBAMA = SOCIALIST nonsense is so very tired at this point. If you're calling Obama a socialist for advocating a progressive tax structure (aka rich people need to pay a higher proportion than poor people), then you might as well be calling Adam Smith (the father of the free market system who stated in his book The Wealth Of Nations "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.") a Marxist.

Hint: they already do pay a higher proportion than poor people.

There IS a limit.

So you're saying that if a middle class man pays 20% and a rich man pays 21%, the middle class guy's better off? Really? Are you really saying that the middle class guy doesn't need 20% of his $30,000 a year more than the rich guy needs his 21% of 30,000,000 a year?

Trickle-down DOESN'T WORK. It has never worked on ANYTHING IN ALL OF HISTORY. Nothing is ever fixed by giving the rich MORE MONEY. Things don't get fixed from the top-down, they get fixed from the bottom-up. That's how physical reality works: you fix the engine first instead of slapping some wax on the hood and hoping the engine fixes itself! A pretty pillar with no sturdy base is always going to fall down, it's only a matter of time.

Is that enough analogies for you, because I have some more if you're still going to spout voodoo-math nonsense about how the rich needing to cough up their fair friggin' share is somehow a "bad thing".

I want the Republicans to be CRUSHED this election. I want blood in the streets. I want them to wonder why they ever bothered to nominate someone in the first place. I want them to lose so badly they eat themselves alive with the blame game. That way, maybe after they've kicked out the neocons and the fundies, they might be a respectable party of actual CONSERVATIVES again.

I short, I want this

but with blue instead of red.

I'll vote the day there's someone worth voting for.

Vote anyway. No excuses. I don't even care who for; just vote.

*le sigh*

If only it were possible, I'd vote for you in a heartbeat.

As of now, I've already voted McCain, though I'm pretty confident that either one is going to screw us over something fierce.

Obama's grandmother has died from cancer at 86.

That's incredibly sad. I can only imagine how much both Barack and his grandmother had wanted to see this moment happen.

McCain was classy in giving his condolences. The California GOP... less so.

Obama I think is kicking the "Bradley Effects butt"

Unless a lot of white voters change their mind at the last possible second. But thats yet to be seen.

Apparently you don't know what the Bradley Effect is... people say the black guy's (in this case Obama) name in the polls out of fear of appearing racist, but when the curtain closes, they say to themselves "President Barack Obama" a few times, blink, and then hit McCain. Of course, on the other side of it (which there should be a name for th is) people will vote him just because of his color... racism will work both ways, but I think the former side will win out. I think it will be another 10-15 years before that breed of thinking dies out of power in a matter like this.

And btw, I disagree with most people who scream racist in an issue, but that is what this will come down to, not who is the best choice. Look no further than Sal on Howard Stern asking people in Harlem who they are voting for and then giving them (false) facts (IE Palin as Obama's VP) and having them agree.

EDIT: And if it was left it up to me, I would have a None of the Above/Do Over option. And can the Independents come up with someone other than Ralph Nader, who has to be 90 years old? I forgot the guy was sitll alive.

what are you talking about? You said exactly what I said only with more words.

You can't be beating it until you're winning the election... It's not something you can truly reflect in the polls. I think we'll start finding though around 6pm EST tomorrow, when the first two or three states close theirs.

There is no legitimate way to quantify the Bradley Effect, it must be noted. Research material in social sciences, polls in this case, are almost inherently subject to error, because knowing what a person is honestly thinking is impossible. The Bradley Effect is a phrase bandied around political analysts who are fervently trying to explain why they were so horribly wrong in their predictions, chalking up racism as a big variable that has no value in their equations.

And while I'm on a tirade against people who talk too much for the very little information they possess, I have to say that the American media on all sides has been stupefying in their coverage. I've learned more information from The Daily Show and The Colbert Report than all the "mainstream" television media combined. Liberal and conservative media have either howled to themselves in their own echo chambers or tried to eviscerate each other. About the only medium I can enjoy is the New York Times (or New York Slimes, depending on personal political bent) showcasing its op-ed columnists, and even there the conservatives are worse off. David Brooks is one man in an ensemble show for defending conservatism. He certainly gets no help from William Kristol, who lobs hand grenades of ill-starred advice to McCain. This may be testament to how Republicans are going to soon come down to a contest between two disparate groups: zealous populists and intellectual plutocrats. If, as CastorTroy has said, blood runs in the streets with the Republican Party, it's going to be a cleavage of these two groups that formed Reagan Country.

"Just vote for Obama, he wants change and change is good!"

Um... wow, that's very un-inspiring. Do you know exactly what he's planning on changing and how it'll effect you? If you don't know, then I don't care about your opinion. Don't vote for him because of his race, just doing that is about the most racist thing I can think of. Yeah, caucasian people did that, but I honestly don't see nearly as much racism from white people, indian people, asians and puerto-rican people as I do from black people in todays society. It's not everyone, please don't take that personal, I have alot of friends who are of all races, backgrounds and colors, but none are ignorant to being racist.

In short, please, if you are going to vote for someone and have no legitimate reason to support them other than change or the economy or good promises from either side, then don't vote. You have that freedom. not every country has the same freedoms that we have. Then again, not every country is impacted so much from the media, much like this election has been.

Oh wow, I thought I was an Obama supporter because I agree with him on most issues, and admire his intellectual honesty and judgment, but thanks to you, I realize that it was because he's black! How insightful!

And what else are you to vote for other than good promises?

And the OBAMA = SOCIALIST nonsense is so very tired at this point. If you're calling Obama a socialist for advocating a progressive tax structure (aka rich people need to pay a higher proportion than poor people), then you might as well be calling Adam Smith (the father of the free market system who stated in his book The Wealth Of Nations "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.") a Marxist.

Hint: they already do pay a higher proportion than poor people.

There IS a limit.

THANK YOU TROY.

OHNOES! NOT... THE SAME TAX RATE AS UNDER CLINTON! HOW WILL THEY SURVIVES!!!!!!!

The socialism nonsense is yet another perversion of the English language to misuse a word as the only support for a ridiculous position. Here are similar examples of socialism:

Fire departments
Police
City services
Libraries
Military
911

Why would anybody support those and not medical?

THANK YOU TROY.

OHNOES! NOT... THE SAME TAX RATE AS UNDER CLINTON! HOW WILL THEY SURVIVES!!!!!!!

The socialism nonsense is yet another perversion of the English language to misuse a word as the only support for a ridiculous position. Here are similar examples of socialism:

Fire departments
Police
City services
Libraries
Military
911

Why would anybody support those and not medical?

*is wondering why you're listing legitimate functions of the government*

Government should have a role to play with regards to providing welfare for those who cannot care for themselves (disabled, elderly, etc.). I've not argued against that.

But the government has no business redistributing the wealth of those who earned it to those who did not.

Oh, and by the way...the same tax bracket that Clinton left will return when (assuming Obama wins) the Bush tax cuts expire. This is not accounting for all of the other tax increases Obama has proclaimed.

The same tax rate under Clinton? Sure. We'll see.

By the way, hope you enjoy the ending of the 401K tax breaks that's being planned by the Democrats in the House of Representatives.

enough squee to amuse constant BEEF Discuss or whatever

The word of the movement of Tis, of that these exerts pressure on, HAD GIVEN the FORM normally at your service, of that modified for particular requirements until certain end. Ingualmente the I followed the guide of the reference of the ears of the fragmentation hand grenade. I know my extremity!

enough squee to amuse constant BEEF Discuss or whatever

The word of the movement of Tis, of that these exerts pressure on, HAD GIVEN the FORM normally at your service, of that modified for particular requirements until certain end. Ingualmente the I followed the guide of the reference of the ears of the fragmentation hand grenade. I know my extremity!

Your wisdom is without parallel.

I'll either vote for some 3rd party candidate or ignore it altogether. Probably the latter.

OH BOY IT'S RANT TIME.

Going around my usual forums, I'm seeing quite a few "I'm not voting" people. The complaints range from "Oh, the lines'll be huge" or "I don't really like either guy" or "I don't have time."

Now what I said to them?

VOTE ANYWAY.

I don't care who for, write someone in if you must, just get out there and do it. Pay taxes, serve if called upon and vote. Those are the only three things Americans are obligated to do by their government, and voting is the easiest of the bunch. You only have to do it once every two years, so it's not like they're asking you to do anything DIFFICULT.

Honestly, is filling out a Scantron sheet or pushing a couple buttons SO HARD that only 50% of the country is mentally and physically capable of accomplishing such a task? Or have we become a nation of mindless jibbering fence-squatting voyeuristic LAZY spectators where something as simple as making your voice heard on one of the few days where the government is not only listening to what you say but outright HINGES upon the will of the people, the very CRUX of the Democratic system, is just too hard?

VOTE TOMORROW.

</rant>

But Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaastoooooooooor.

I'm tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiired.

And my feeeeeeeeet huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurt.

And I don't wanna do anything todaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

And I didn't do anything wrooooooooooooooong how come ya wanna kick me oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooout?

And I looooooooooooooooooove this cake but it makes me feel soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo fat.

Dubsie! You visit is always welcomed.

I would voted for McCain ... if it were 2004's or 2000's GOP candidate.

I mean, I'll still vote of course, because there is alot more on the ballet than presidential candidates. It's just... well, I have no idea who to pick. Neither seem like I can really trust them to do a good job. Just leave it up to time to decide that.

Oh wow, I thought I was an Obama supporter because I agree with him on most issues, and admire his intellectual honesty and judgment, but thanks
to you, I realize that it was because he's black! How insightful!

And what else are you to vote for other than good promises?

That's good! if you support Obama for your own views, if you agree with their points and have good reason, then by all means vote for them! i just believe that there are alot of dry votes out there for wrong reasons. I did go on a tangent with the racist thing, and that was my bad, it just got to me the other day.

Also, Castor, I do not think everyone should vote. In my honest opinion, most people will walk up to the polls and only see McCain and Obama. All the other issues and questions are also what we are voting for, and it's safe to say that most people don't even know what they are reading. This is my real beef with this election, the media has hyped it up so much through the McCain/Obama thing that they haven't even touched on the local and international political issues. Sure, you might know for a fact who you want for president, but what about voting yes or no for the question ballets. We all are capable of finding out, but when you're filling out that ballet it's a bit too late.

My main point, is if people want to be part of politics so bad and make a difference, it's not in picking a president. The president, in my opinion, is nowhere near as important as the political issues. They really have no say, because congress is the one who works these things through. If you don't work on the issues, then your voice will never even make it to the president or even state governor.

I refuse to have anything to do with these candidates, Castor. That's just the way it is.

Write-ins. Or if that feels wasteful, vote for Ralph Nader or Bob Barr as a "protest vote".

Completely ignoring the rest of this thread because any political debate longer than three posts gets insanely retarded very quickly:

I don't understand the Democratic party's promises. I mean;
-Higher spending. Healthcare and welfare is expensive as hell, if looking at other countries is any indication...and we have a *lot* more people. Also, just looking at a theme amongst countries with universal healthcare, it's *always* drastically more expensive than initial estimates.
-Lower income. Cutting taxes on "90%" of Americans? Definately lower income, unless we're punishing the rich a *lot* more than I thought we were.
-Higher profit. I can't think of any other way to fix a ten billion dollar deficit than...y'know, making money.

Now; has the Democratic party not promised one of those three? 'Cause if they have, I'm voting Democratic, because any party that can break the laws of arithmetic is just too awesome not to be in power.

Or they're lying. One of those two.

Can one of the Obama supporters here stop making fun of Palin long enough to explain to me the new math laws? I'll be in college not long after Obama takes office, I figure I should get ahead and learn the new math now, before I need it.

So if you're not voting in the presidential election, that somehow means you aren't voting at all?

On another note, I sure do hear a lot about Proposition 8 in Cali...and I don't even live there.

OH BOY IT'S RANT TIME.

Going around my usual forums, I'm seeing quite a few "I'm not voting" people. The complaints range from "Oh, the lines'll be huge" or "I don't really like either guy" or "I don't have time."

Now what I said to them?

VOTE ANYWAY.

I don't care who for, write someone in if you must, just get out there and do it. Pay taxes, serve if called upon and vote. Those are the only three things Americans are obligated to do by their government, and voting is the easiest of the bunch. You only have to do it once every two years, so it's not like they're asking you to do anything DIFFICULT.

Honestly, is filling out a Scantron sheet or pushing a couple buttons SO HARD that only 50% of the country is mentally and physically capable of accomplishing such a task? Or have we become a nation of mindless jibbering fence-squatting voyeuristic LAZY spectators where something as simple as making your voice heard on one of the few days where the government is not only listening to what you say but outright HINGES upon the will of the people, the very CRUX of the Democratic system, is just too hard?

VOTE TOMORROW.

</rant>

o.o Castor I think you could be going a little easier on them... I doubt it makes them more inclined to vote when people telling them to do so are lashing out at them... for what it's worth, I do agree that voting is probably the easiest of things considered civic duties, and I myself voted last Canadian election despite having a hard time deciding who to vote for, but if you consider the people you're talking about "mindless jibbering fence-squatting voyeuristic lazy spectors" then why do you want them to decide who runs the government?

Of course, this doesn't mean not to criticize people's reasons for not voting; like with Toby Barrett saying "I refuse to have anything to do with these candidates"; they will have something to do with you whether you vote for them or not since they're running the government... but there's a difference between trying to explain to people why it's a good idea to vote and (language warning) going all Vote Or Die on them.

...

Oh, and Ultra, on what do you base the assumption that the things Vec listed are "legitimate functions of government" and that public healthcare isn't? If government is supposed to protect people, why does the government have less business being involved if they're being harmed by a disease than if they're being harmed by a criminal, or since Vec mentioned fire departments, a building fire? You say the government has no business redistributing wealth to those who "earned" it and those who didn't but having earned something sure isn't the same as having deserved it. Someone who starts up their own business and works hard to get ahead of the competition will probably keep more money than someone who settles for a minimum wage job, but someone else who starts up their own business and, aside from working hard, also damages the environment, advertises misleadingly, sets up shop wherever employee protection laws are weaker, etc... will probably keep even more money than that. As I said before, I don't even necessarily believe in taxing the rich just for being rich in itself, I'd like to think taxes could be shifted more so onto sales but I'm not sure how realistic that is... but since the US is trillions of dollars in debt at the same time as an economic recession, I think the burden should be highest on those with the ability to pay.

Holy crap, I just realised something. My 1000th post was accidentally about how I was hoping that Obama would be elected as the next president of the United States of America and now that he's accomplished this, my kilopost was not wasted at all!