I don't "go around" saying things about religious people. I offer my opinion on them to strangers only if specifically invited, because it's not very nice.

Spoilers (Select To Read): Religion is child abuse.

Also, considering your religion is currently practiced by eighty percent of North Americans, your whining about "double standards" and whatnot is simply laughable. There is nothing "unfair" about the status your religion enjoys in society. Enough with the persecution complex.

V2, those people are called hypocrits, and those are the stereotypical atheists.

EVERY race, culture, ethnicity, and religion has their type. You can't escape it, and no one is freakin' perfect. However, the reason the Christian body gets targeted the most is because they open their yaps the most, and are heard of the most.

It's that whole "the more you make yourself noticed..." type of thing.

It's not at all unfair as it is just life in an imperfect world. *shrug*

Cycle, that's the irony. Some of the atheists in the remainging 20% act like their superior. They don't want to shove my beliefs down their throat. So I don't do that. But what makes them think they can try to shove their lack of beliefs down mine.

And Jinsoku, I haven't heard that stereotype for atheists. Their stereotype is that they are actually humble and level-headed.

Teehee.

But yeah, what Cyc said. You're the majority. Stop whining about what some "atheists" (PROTIP: Most people on the internet who claim to be ahteist are 13-year-olds trying to be cool) said to you on the internets.

I'm talking about actual atheists who have brains just lack the common sense and humility. I know the ones on the internet are posers who just going to church. You're right though.

There is no double standard. Christians who shove their beliefs down people's throats are just as annoying as atheists who shove their beliefs down people's throats. There are hypocrites on both sides, and there are sensible people on both sides, so don't act like the only victim here.

The following image has Deckman's Seal of Approval:

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I know that. But why do I have to pay for something I didn't do? OK Jesus did so nevermind. ^.^

Paying for something you didn't do? What is that supposed to mean?

COURSE YOU EZ DOUBLEPOST

Sonic, you must understand that as much as it is your right to choose your own religion, it is everyone else's right to make fun of that religion and rag on you for it.

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Sonic, you must understand that as much as it is your right to choose your own religion, it is everyone else's right to make fun of that religion and rag on you for it.

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So shouldn't that mean that Christians should have an equal right to stand up for themselves? The mass media, as displayed in that lovely little satire picture of yours has no problem dissing Christianity. Now, tell me honestly. What reaction would you expect if the same "Busted" sign was placed over:

The Qu'ran
Whatever Symbols the New Agers use
Whatever symbols wicca uses
Bhudda
Hindu symbols
The word "Atheism"

Well?
I DOUBT the satire would go unanswered. Denmark anyone? Anyone remember the reactions to the Scientology episode of South Park? Meanwhile, people use the arguement as presented in V2's opening line as a way to tell Christians to STFU if we try to disagree with something publically.

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Paying for something you didn't do? What is that supposed to mean?

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You know. Those old Christians who conform to the stereotype who keep damning everybody. Why must I be viewed by the stereotype just because some older people did it and yet I didn't.

Well, as has been said, the majority of people in North America are Christian, and the majority of vocal Christians are insane bible-thumpers who spout propaganda at every opportunity available to them.

This is by no means the majority of Christians, but they do get the most media attention and as such create a negative vibe for the rest of Christianitydom.

Now go away and stop whining about persecution and stereotyping unless you come back as a Muslim.

If you don't like religious discussion, don't tell everyone you're a Christian. They have no need to know.

Why cant people just learn to live without religion? Oh, i forgot... (insert offensive statement againsed how smart humanity is)

yeah, whatever, i dont even know what i am anymore. christian, atheist, buddhist... all i know is religion is bad news. only because we make it so annoying to other people when we talk about it. do i believe in a god? sure, why not. something created us from some begining. we have no clue though, so how can we worship what we dont know? yeah i know... faith. well i have faith that when i die, i'll be shown what really happened and that it wont be as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be.

Contrary to the popular belief of those who feel persecuted (and it doesn't have to be about religion, it can be any social issue someone chooses to discuss), NOTHING goes unanswered.

Hence, the reason why only a few people can't somehow twist the reality of the world to think that they aren't persecuted. Part of living in a society where supposedly "all thoughts are welcome" means that something that is considered common will not always be played up because the need isn't there. It's what is different that gets played up because it's to keep those who are only into what's common aware of the fact that there are other people & other ways of doing things. Obviously, there is a limit, which is why I put "all thoughts are welcome" in quotes as things that are considered totally against the norms of society hardly ever get mentioned.

You live in a society that's based on protecting the minority (not in numbers, but in power and influence) from the majority. That of course means that those in the majority at times will feel (wrongly) persecuted. ;p

BTW, Cy, I know you're not in NY, but I'll raise your Denmark to the uproar over artwork in the museums occassionally that "desecrate" Jesus or the Bible (among other things). Besides, in Denmark there wasn't much of an uproar. It was outside the country and that's getting into a comparing completely different societies and societal norms, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

I know what persecution feels like. I don't deal with it due to my religion and unless you're a Christian that lives in an area that isn't mostly Christian, you don't deal with persecution either (unless it's the intra-Christian kind).

Oh, and one thing I forgot. Mass media doesn't "offend" anyone. Mass media does what it can to avoid offending as many people as possible. That's why mass media doesn't poke fun at religions, races, ethnicities, etc. Of course, it's impossible not to offend at least one person no matter what you do, but mass media is one of the few things that actually try--hence, why there is some truth to political correctness complaints (but many times those things are taken way too far and exaggerated). South Park or some individual's artwork (whether it's political cartoons or whatever) does not represent mass media. Those are creations of some person(s) and does whatever the creator(s) want. They have their agendas goals and carry them. While I don't watch South Park (and never have), I've always been under the impression that it pokes fun at everyone & everything so I'd think that's a horribly bad example to use with regards to "persecution" or "acceptability."

Remember, there's a huge difference between persecution and having your beliefs confronted by someone who thinks differently & is willing to stand up for those beliefs. Too many people confuse the latter for persecution because it's been awhile that most truly felt what persecution is.

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Anyone remember the reactions to the Scientology episode of South Park?

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Uh, their ratings went up? That seems most likely with the media attention. If you're looking for a religion to use as an example of something that doesn't get mocked, you won't find one, and Scientology isn't it. That's probably one of the religions that is MOST popular to make fun of. And I should note that the second time I watched South Park, it was about a future world that was in a constant holy war between 3 sects of atheism.

Mass media tends to go along the lines of "implied agnosticism" most of the time, because catering to a large audience means ratings.

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Remember, there's a huge difference between persecution and having your beliefs confronted by someone who thinks differently & is willing to stand up for those beliefs. Too many people confuse the latter for persecution because it's been awhile that most truly felt what persecution is.

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So true. Quite a few religions will get you arrested and imprisoned in many parts of the world (including christianity in some places). It happened within the 20th century, in the U.S., and obviously in places like the U.S.S.R. and Nazi Germany they did much worse. There are people I've met who were imprisoned for relgious refusal to join the military, in the U.S., within the last 50 years.

I'm not particularly moved by the tragic stories of christians who had their ears assaulted by "Happy Holidays" at Wal-Mart or people who think they're being oppressed because somebody else's opinion isn't being oppressed.

On the original subject, yes, sometimes people are hypocritical, but that isn't exclusive to any group. So the next time one of them does it, if they actually are being hypocritical and not just disagreeing with you, you should call them on it in a reasonable way and show them why they're being unfair.

Guys, it doesn't matter if Christians are "persecuted" (Which I don't believe is happening), or if you can bash Christianity in ways that one couldn't do as easily to another religion (Busted Koran example) without being considered racist or whatever.

It doesn't matter. There's nothing wrong with believing whatever the hell you want. It's called Freedom of Religion.

Also, it's called Freedom of Expression - if someone wants to bash a religion so extensively, if you believe in God, just take comfort in the fact that you know where they're going to go.

Note, I intentionally worded this to avoid expressing my own opinion on religion.

Everyone says that America is overwhelmingly made up of "practicing Christians." I must live in a completely different America from everyone else. An America called.... the northeast.

I dunno where V2 lives. But from the perspective of someone living in the Northeast, what V2 is saying makes perfect sense.

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And Jinsoku, I haven't heard that stereotype for atheists. Their stereotype is that they are actually humble and level-headed.

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There's never just ONE single stereotype for anything. For example, Christians have the stereotype of being loudmouth, in your face bible beaters. They also have the stereotype of being peaceful people, who practice the bible, and those who oppose their beliefs, they think nothing of it, the "humble and level-headed" Christians.

Like I said, it's the same way with ANYthing. Atheists are the same. I am one myself. You have those that keep to themselves and can actually hold a debate well thought out, and then you have those moronic bible beat-em-ups who think they are holier than thou because they DON'T believe in god and that's the right thing to do. See?

Here's another example. It's exaggerated all to hell, but just to show you how stereotypes are a double-edged sword, where there is truth and broken facts thrown into each stereotype. Stereotypes of Muslims is that they are very peaceful, practicing their ways, are very protective of their society, but respect others no matter what. Then there's the other stereotype where Muslims... blow themselves up for their beliefs.

See what I mean, not very fair, and not very true to fact.

The answer to everything is, if you are ever persecuted, no matter if you're in the majority, or the minority, keep your head up high, be the responsible person and debate yourself with a level head, or hell, just ignore the jackasses. You believe what you believe in, that's it. You don't go persecuting others, and that's just good enough for you. That answer is good enough to shut other people up. It's what I've used all my life when there's someone out there who just DOESN'T understand my way of life, and it usually quiets them down. I didn't look for a crazy beliefs fight, and I made it open-and-shut.

This is me, that's it. Don't like it? Tough. Can we move on?

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Everyone says that America is overwhelmingly made up of "practicing Christians."

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Hahaha... Practicing Christian... I can't even call myself that. Sure, I believe in God and Jesus and all the other stuff that a good little Catholic boy should, but that doesn't mean I'm practicing... If I were practicing, I wouldn't be wasting time on the internet talking about video games or anything like that =

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Everyone says that America is overwhelmingly made up of "practicing Christians." I must live in a completely different America from everyone else. An America called.... the northeast.

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I live there too. I've yet to run into anyone willing to admit they are an atheist outside of when I was living in NYC itself. I've run into many different faiths, but the large majority are Christians and there are more churches than I can count. I've seen synagogues/temples, but not many.

"Practicing Christian" means different things to different people, so you have to clarify what you mean when you say it. Most people use "practicing Christian" to mean someone who believes in Jesus as the Son of God and a few other beliefs. Others add more qualifying factors (including how often someone goes to church) and those qualifying factors affect how many "practicing Christians" there are. However, more people go to church regularly in the Northeast (a lot more if you count all the Sunday morning religious programming that is watched pretty well in addition to those that physically go to a church) than its given credit for in most stereotypes about it. ;p

I'm a non-practicing Satanist =D

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I've yet to run into anyone willing to admit they are an atheist outside of when I was living in NYC itself.

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I find that very difficult to understand. Nearly everyone I know is agnostic, a few are athiests, some are self-described pagans. A lot are catholic by birth but care nothing for the religion. Almost none of my friends or acquaintances take Christianity at all seriously. And I've gone to Catholic schools all my life.

The vast majority of people I've encountered in my life (that'd be Rhode Island and nearby Massachusetts) care very little about religion.

As a side note, I hate "my people" being represented by someone like SonicV2.

Sonic, you must understand that as much as it is your right to choose your own religion, it is everyone else's right to make fun of that religion and rag on you for it.

This is entirely true, and this is one of the strongest things our country was founded upon. It is the marketplace of ideas.

Wonderbat can stomp around claiming a stick of lip balm is his personal god and messiah, and he has every right to do that.
But with that right, I can call him a dumbass motherf**ker who's going to hell. That's fine too. I just can't punch him for it.

When I grew up, I'd never attended a religious school--just public (& secular private) schools. A few will admit to being Agnostic in the schools I've attended as either a student growing up or eavesdropping on student conversations as a substitute teacher/teaching assistant/student teacher in the past 3 years. Most people I know are Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, or Jehovah's Witnesses. However, I know some that are Jewish (most of the non-Christians I know are Jewish) as well as a few Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs.

I'm sure there's more than that around as not everyone will discuss religion openly (but hey, you learn a lot about people in social studies classes when debating religious/social/political issues and that I had a lot of in junior high & high school), but being an atheist is not that popular to admit to being if one happens to be it. Of course, atheists don't even make up 10% of the total US population, unless someone is counting Agnostics as atheists, so there aren't that many around.

Of course, when one talks about taking their religion seriously, that again depends on how one defines doing such a thing. I know by a lot of people's definition I wouldn't classify as taking it seriously, nor would many people--but perception isn't always reality. I consider religion to be an individual thing that can only be understood on an individual level & shouldn't be compared to others. But I'm weird anyway. ;p

Perhaps, then, what I'm talking about is a phenomenon specific to New England or maybe even just Southern New England. Because what you're describing sounds wholly alien to me.

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And I've gone to Catholic schools all my life.

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Perhaps this has something to do with it. Even besides stereotypes about strictness, in a Catholic school rejection of Catholicism is a form of rebellion.

When I was in public school, for junior high I went to one of the most elite public schools for the gifted in the country, and believe it or not, I only remember hearing one person claim to be an atheist, and people were pretty surprised about it. Then later I went to a religious school with short hours so I could start college early (and avoid P.E. class, because of chronic fatigue syndrome which I had at the time). Before going to a religious school, I'd never had a doubt in my mind about the existence of God. This seems to be a common feeling of people who go to religious schools.

Oh, and I do agree religion is child abuse, especially if that religion is true. If, theoretically, any religion is true, then indoctrinating children in it will just make it impossible for them to ever know whether their opinions on it are legitimate, rebellion, or conditioning.

I consider religion to be an individual thing that can only be understood on an individual level & shouldn't be compared to others. But I'm weird anyway.

TR, there's nothing weird about that. I think most people who aren't hung up on labels feel the same way.

I'm a practicing Catholic, I go to Church every Sunday. I like to think I do the best I can, and longtime oldbies migh remember I was considering the priesthood many years back. But if you see me, and that's all you see of me, then you're wearing some mighty thick blinders.

Alot of the discussion going on this thread is silly because it's mainly unsubstaniated anecdotes, like the one about Catholic schools making people reject religion. For ever kid in my Catholic high school that rebelled, I know another that is either still practicing, or has gone on to a vocation. Is this the norm? I have no freaking clue. It's an unsubsantiated anecdote, and I'm not even going to pretend to know the whole trend because it doesn't matter what the trend is to me.

Getting back to SonicV2's original question...or at least what I think his original question was....listen man, there's a time to be a sponge and absorb everything you can abou this crazy world, and there's a time when you have to cowboy up and grow some skin, because thankfully skin is excellent armor against things like insults or the superior attitudes of others. This can apply to religion, or it can apply to console fanboyism.

I mean, when you say Christians are being targetted, are you talking about harsh language? Mean-spirited books? Bad jokes? Because that's not being targetted, that's just cynical human nature. Targetted is concentration camps, suicide bombers and death squads. Targetted is censorship and hate legislation.

So as a member of the American Christian majority, I'm telling you, we're not being targetted by anything that can't be blocked by some skin.

Now lighten up and enjoy life. Don't take it too seriously. You know nobody gets out of it alive

You want to know why I don't like christianity? Take a look in marble garden.

I don't talk about the others because I don't see any followers of Buddah in here talking about the evils of abortion or the twisted gay people.

~Tobe

I know gay Christians.

I think there needs to be a rule against anecdotal evidence in debate threads.

What, you want statistics of atheism in religious schools? I'm not debating, I'm suggesting, and baiting for more anecdotes.

I once had a priest tell me that if I listened to metal I would go to hell. I laughed at him for like five minutes.

Does that count?

Since when is this a debate thread? This thread has been anecdotal since the beginning.

Hi, new girl in da room, givin' her two cents (or is that rings in here?)
My parents are a vicar and a militant atheist, I have grown up with religious argument all my life and have been a Christian before. Then I was an atheist. Now I'm what is known as an agnostic, and my beliefs are rarely discussed to my face in the family these days. Mostly because, after all those years of trying to defend one family member against the other or make sense of things which blatantly made no sense, I just refused to argue anymore.
I believe, but exactly what I believe in is monumentally difficult to put into words. What everyone else believes in is no business of mine, as long as they don't go all hellfire at me about it. Yes, they have the right to tell me I'm a sinner and I'm going to hell.
I reserve the right to not give a damn, and to refuse to talk to them anymore if they continue to blab about it to me.

Bat, was that the same person that couldn't come up with any reason to think of Christianity as more than just a cult?