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I don't think the issue is necessarily what she's wearing, it's how she's treated.

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Let's also point out that, given the stilted, difficult control scheme that's been part of the series since its conception, apparently, I could argue that her boobs are probably the best thing she's got going for her. Hopefully that new Tomb Raider will set things straight (ie: have a control scheme that DOESN'T suck).

Above comments based on Saturn version of Tomb Raider (1). Dunno if the later games fixed this, but from the demo of Tomb Raider IV I played on a DC demo disk, no, it really hadn't. I'm not sure I even want to TOUCH Angel of Darkness, regardless of how free it was when it came with my Audigy 2 ZS.

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Chun Li had a famously gratuitously titillating shower scene in the Street Fighter II animated movie. As much as a fan of Street Fighter I am it's not really hard to see that pretty much all of Capcom's female fighting game characters are T&A oriented (some more so than others).

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True, the shower seen was the obvious fan service, and the Darkstalkers girls (ESPECIALLY Morrigan and Felicia) are quite frankly designed to be uber sexy, but in Street Fighter itself, most of the girls are pretty strong characters (in character that is, not just gameplay), Chun Li and Cammy both have the most interesting stories and personalities in the game, that's the point I'm making. Whats more, and most fanservice of Chun Li has been strictly in spin offs.

I think the main problem is that people see a pretty, sexy girl in a game and no one thinks they are going to be smart, personality driven or has depth to her story, whether that character was made to be sexy or not. Lara Croft was, the DoA girls were, so was Nai Shuranui from Fatal Fury, and though there are many like that people don't realise that there are many more who aren't just sex on legs, for another example there's Tifa Lockheart, who at first look is a mini skirt wearing busty character in a sports bra, but that's just her design, and while she does have a romantic interest (as Harley used as a steriotype) she never actually gets the person she loves.

I know there is a bias that means women are more likely to be used as a sexy model for a product, but the thing is it hasn't really been all that blatent in most games, and in fact is mostly public perseption of the character, Tifa was never really used as a sex symbol, nor was Aeris, but so many gamers see her as one due to her design that people think that was the intention all along.

I can't help but wonder how much of the problem is the attitude gamers bring to the games portraying characters, rather than the character portrayals - something that Robobotnik touches on.

For the most part, people want the characters they're looking at to be, at least, reasonably attractive - both male and female. About the only exceptions would be for comedy characters, non-human characters or a deliberate "break from the mainstream" characters. There are a lot of two-dimensional characters out there as well, both male and female, and so you end up with 2D attractive individuals. Given that the main core of gamers is male, it is then pretty easy for them to simply view the female characters as there for sex appeal - which is the case quite often, I'm not denying that - and not particularly care about the male characters.

When you then bring this round to games like Tomb Raider, while the bust size is glaringly obvious, and Lara Croft has been made unashamedly beautiful as a character, there is more depth. This just isn't seen in a lot of the gameplay, and as it is fairly easy to ignore the plot in a game like that, the character side of her is lost.

Also, how should women be portrayed? As strong, independent types who are tough enough to take on anything? That is simply creating a male in a female body. Women are different. There, I've said it. Shoot me down in flames all you like. But think about it. Should women have to act like men in order to prove that they're more than just something to look at? Should female characters have to be portrayed as macho individuals to be considered "strong" and "empowered"?

That's one thing which I generally find quite nicely done in Final Fantasy games, where the female characters do get a fair amount of depth.

In short, the depth is there if you're prepared to look for it. The problem is that people generally don't, even when it's thrown in their faces. Also, it's worth considering what a "strong female lead" should be like, rather than arguing for what's essentially a man with breasts (not to say that there aren't women like this, and the equivalent reverse for men).

Sorry for the length, just had a fair bit to say...

This is how I explain it. Anorexic women are usually fashion models, because the point of them isn't nescessarily to be sexy. They're supposed to look sophisticated, refined, and striking. While porn stars, for example, are supposed to be sexy, so they're curvy.
My girlfriend fits the description of "sophisticated, refined and striking", and yet she's not anorexic. In fact, she eats almost as much as I do. Do you even know what anorexia is?

Anorexic and busty are different types of beauty. This doesn't negate the fact that they are in general the *only* accepted types of female beauty, which is what we were complaining about in this thread in the first place.
So wait a second. As you see it, women are divided into porn stars, anorexics, and everyone else?

For example, Lara Croft is actually quite practically dressed and decently covered for an explorer and archaeologist- short sleeved shirts, shorts and boots. That's really what a man would wear too. However, what is annoying is the way that an intelligent, active and beautiful heroine is marketed like a stupid bimbo whose only only asset is her boobs.
What the hell are you talking about? Lara is hardly a stupid bimbo. And last time I saw a piece of marketing for a Tomb Raider game, she was sneaking up behind a Combine-looking dude and snapping his neck, not giggling and seducing him with her boobs. Have you even played Tomb Raider?

Just to confirm what was said, TheCycle:

1) That is your opinion to your girlfriend being, 'sophisticated, refined and striking'. Can you honestly say that fashion models look attractive physically?
They advertise clothes. People are shallow and aren't likely to buy a dress if it is modelled by someone who is obese.

2) He was saying that female beauty is one and the same. Like I have already said, beauty is skin deep. Some guys might find anorexic attractive whilst others go for the busty look. But at the end of the day, all females are attractive to someone one way or the other.

3) Obviously, Lara in particular is going to go for the rough approach rather than the seduction angle. But you cannot deny that she has been marketed somewhat as a sex symbol. Some guys like their ladies rough.
And yes, I have played every Tomb Raider. But that is beside the point.

I think what got me was when I was looking for a games magazine in the local asda I couldn't help but notice that they were all basically surrounded by what appeared to be pr0n mags o_o

Torn: I -for one-hate that stereotype, because its quite annoying. Not saying you are perpetuating it. I just hate that.

True, I don't want a chick that I could poke and she breaks like a toothpick house. That's disgusting and annoying. Women can be skinny and attractive, because they have good muscle tone and don't look like they're about die from a cancer that eats away at their bone marrow. But the whole thick thing...No. Just no. Lookin' all disproportionate like they're a walking teeter totter.

Oddly enough, I believe that is a pop culture stereotype that is now perpetuated by a truckload of rap icons-giving...

1) Young males {notable blacks} the impression that a thick girl is more attractive, and will lead to you getting a Benz >< {I had to harm my cousin last week for saying that.}

2) Young males acting "thuggish" and getting muscular {A GOOD THING, ACTUALLY, but for the wrong reason. Least they're getting out and exercising. 9_9} to attain such an image

3) Young Females-as Troop pointed out-altering their lifestyles to look like these damn stick figures. If they aren't doing that these stick figure dreams; they're trying to shake their rump in front of a camera in some attempt to try and look sexy when all it looks like is if they have to take a massive crap.

4) Young women trying to be in videos {Well this has always been the case, no news there} becasue it'll halp them gain respect

5) Other young women who watch these girls in video acting this way as part of their daily lifestyle-which leads to #6

6) Young men trying to rap to these women portraying this lifestyle. It just continues and burns my eyes out x_x

Whoa, this thing really has branched off. Call Oprah. Teeheehee

I think Trimanus' post is particularly insightful.

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I can't help but wonder how much of the problem is the attitude gamers bring to the games portraying characters, rather than the character portrayals - something that Robobotnik touches on.

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That's a good point to bring up. I never thought of that. Hopefully, good discussion will help change gamers' attitude... something we're a part of. 🙂 Of course, I do tink that game character designers and marketing is also integral in manipulating their characters' perceptions by the public.

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For the most part, people want the characters they're looking at to be, at least, reasonably attractive - both male and female. About the only exceptions would be for comedy characters, non-human characters or a deliberate "break from the mainstream" characters.

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I do agree with you. I'd love to see more women in these roles, instead of the 'attractive person' role that both men and women fill, but in which women predominate. Women are about 50% of the population. In terms of video games, I'd love to see more female comedians, more bizarre female aliens, and unorthodox women. There's nothing wrong with an attractive woman, but I want to see more varieties in roles for women in general. Variety and originality are good.

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There are a lot of two-dimensional characters out there as well, both male and female, and so you end up with 2D attractive individuals. Given that the main core of gamers is male, it is then pretty easy for them to simply view the female characters as there for sex appeal - which is the case quite often, I'm not denying that - and not particularly care about the male characters

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I agree. I know that the atmosphere is like this because most gamers are men. However, I'm hoping that by changing the atmosphere, more girls will play. This isn't merely an egalitarian dream; last I checked, game companies are also looking at women as an untapped demographic, because of their spending potential. I think this will be good for everybody. If more women play, the gaming industry can earn more money and expand. As games cater to women, there will be more genres of games. Maybe games will be less violent, and as more moms and girls play games, the public stereotype of games being only for troublemaking boys will go away. Also, if more women game, I'll have more girl gamers to talk to, and so will you. 🙂 Everybody wins.

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Also, how should women be portrayed? As strong, independent types who are tough enough to take on anything? That is simply creating a male in a female body. Women are different. There, I've said it. Shoot me down in flames all you like. But think about it. Should women have to act like men in order to prove that they're more than just something to look at? Should female characters have to be portrayed as macho individuals to be considered "strong" and "empowered"?

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That's a very good point. Women characters don't have to be masculine and rugged to be "strong" and "empowered." What they should be is well-developed, deep, and complex. I think what Harley is complaining about isn't that women aren't tough, but that a lot of female characters are shallow, or only play marginal roles.

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My quote: "This is how I explain it. Anorexic women are usually fashion models, because the point of them isn't nescessarily to be sexy. They're supposed to look sophisticated, refined, and striking. While porn stars, for example, are supposed to be sexy, so they're curvy."

Cycle's Response: My girlfriend fits the description of "sophisticated, refined and striking", and yet she's not anorexic. In fact, she eats almost as much as I do. Do you even know what anorexia is?

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"Main Entry: anorexia nervosa
Pronunciation: -(")n&r-'vO-s&, -z&
Function: noun
: a serious eating disorder primarily of young women in their teens and early twenties that is characterized especially by a pathological fear of weight gain leading to faulty eating patterns, malnutrition, and usually excessive weight loss"

Congratulations on having such a great girlfriend who is not anorexic. However, my point is not that all sophisticated and refined people are anorexic. I apologize if that's how it seemed in the post, and perhaps "anorexic" wasn't the best word choice. My point is that fashion models are very thin because culturally, we associate someone who's thin with someone who's sophisticted and refined. This is something that has been proved in psychological experiments. Thin people are *perceived* (even if this is not necessarily the case) as being more sophisticated, intelligent, and refined. On the other hand, porn stars, and other women in professions that require "sexiness," are more likely to be curvy as opposed to thin. My point was that different body builds predominate in different media industries.

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So wait a second. As you see it, women are divided into porn stars, anorexics, and everyone else?

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No. As I see it, women portrayed in the media are either very curvy (porn-star build), or dangerously thin (fashion model build). Women in real life are not this way, which is why I find the media representations objectionable. As Emerald Hedgehog says, the public won't buy into obese fashion models, and I don't expect it to. However, I do wish there were more models with normal body structures, as opposed to looking rail-thin. There are many beautiful women (such as your girlfriend, Cycle) who are neither watermelon-boobed nor stick girls, and I want to see them on tv for once.

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My quote: "For example, Lara Croft is actually quite practically dressed and decently covered for an explorer and archaeologist- short sleeved shirts, shorts and boots. That's really what a man would wear too. However, what is annoying is the way that an intelligent, active and beautiful heroine is marketed like a stupid bimbo whose only only asset is her boobs."

Cycle's Response: What the hell are you talking about? Lara is hardly a stupid bimbo. And last time I saw a piece of marketing for a Tomb Raider game, she was sneaking up behind a Combine-looking dude and snapping his neck, not giggling and seducing him with her boobs. Have you even played Tomb Raider?

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I never said that Lara is a stupid bimbo. I said, in the paragraph that you quoted from me, that she is quite practically dressed, and an intelligent, active and beautiful heroine. My problem is not with her, my problem is with her marketing. I'm glad that the new marketing piece you saw for Tomb Raider has Lara snapping necks. The old marketing I saw had, among other things, a topless Lara Croft clinging to a pillow. There was a poster where Lara's clothes were strewn across the floor, and she was striding out of the panel buck naked. That's what I oppose. I'm glad the marketing has improved now, if that's the case, but it doesn't negate my argument that Lara Croft was initially treated as a sex object.

Yeah, as fun as the Tomb Raider games are, they are marketted on Lara's appeal as of #2 (the original being what made Lara appealable as she was arguably the first real game babe).

From the ending of #2 being her getting in the shower and then shooting the camera saying "I think you've seen enough"; to codes in 3 and 4 which were publicised as "nudity cheats" and ended up exploding Lara or corrupting your save files or the aforoementioned CGI naked in chair shots and so forth.

The games themselves are fun as heck and the character isn't any way degrading, just the way Eidos and Core tend to market her.

That said, the biggest case of this in which I mean the most blatant attempt at shooting for sex appeal would be the game Pandemonium. The original game had a girl called Nikki

www.megghy.com/immagini/P...um%201.jpg

In game graphics she looked like a guy, short shoulder length hair, flat chest, if it wasn't for the clothing and red lips you could barely tell. I mean there's nothing at all wrong with her...

www.megghy.com/immagini/P...um%202.jpg

OHTEHSEQUELS!

She's become "a super hot vixen extrordinaire" (<-- which she more or less calls herself in the game's intro)

Come on. If THAT is not trying to sell through sex. Nothing is.

Tis a shame that the game never caught on well. I enjoyed that series. Alot.

I kind of suck at telling whether people are attractive or not. On average I find all people attractive, which is partially responsible for my attraction to furries...

But I do know when people are deliberately aiming for sex appeal, and god if that advert doesn't get me angry...

It goes thus - often a game that's successful in its first incarnation will have a sequel. But knowing that the sequel will be compared to the original, developers who used up most of their marketing ideas in the first campaign instead go for sex appeal.

At least, that's another of my opinions.