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Akira Toriyama Envy

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(@veckums)
Posts: 1758
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Son'c's DBZ references, both intentional and not, are well known, but we can now add Akira Toriyama's next most famous franchise, Chrono Trigger, to the mix. (STH360 spoiler warning).

Sonic's first teammate is Bul... Tails, a mechanical genius who joins him to seek out the 7 dragon... chaos emeralds which allow him to turn into the (even more) spiky golden haired Super Sonic.

He then runs into Picc...Knuckles, an enemy of similar skill who is the guardian of the dragon... chaos emeralds. The enemy eventually switches sides, being suspicious of Sonic at first but eventually mellow enough to basically team up with him constantly.

Sonic's origins are a mystery, but some clue may be had by the appearance of Veget...Shadow, an evil saiyahog who oddly has exactly the same powers as Sonic, and even spikier hair. He can turn super too and has a power that he activates by yelling its name.

In a time travel epic, Trun...Silver, a strange young hedgehog from the future with similar powers to both of them and the ability to go super shows up. Oh, and his English voice sounds just like Trunks. He constantly talks about the Chrono...Iblis trigger. Quickly after the introductory plot, STK, our team of 3 heroes, is forced into time travel to an unkown location by villains and ends up in a post-apocalyptic future. By examining a computer, the techie hero discovers that civilization was conquered by a being of fire, Lavo...Iblis. (Did they mention a day of disaster too?). When traveling to the same future, Shadow and Rouge discover an ancient robot hunched over and dormant (he's even in like exactly the same pose). Our heroes must time travel through black and blue time portals to advance in the story. Their enemy is Magu...Mephiles, another time traveler who seems to know not only about the different time periods but also Lavo...Iblis, who he wants to join forces with (ok, in Chrono Trigger they only thought Magus was trying to awaken it, but close enough). Marl...Elise, is a princess and unlikely love interest of the spiky haired hero whose blue gem plays a role in the plot from the first time she's introduced. In a subplot the robot is assigned a mission in one time period and shows up in the other time period without time travel, and gives a hero the item he's been holding, the green dream...emerald. The star spiky haired hero dies and can only be saved by the game's primary macguffin, the 7 emeralds which can grant wishes. The party travels to a black location that oddly contains a brown stone floor and fence architecture outside of time called the end of tim...the world to complete their quest.

Coming in 2007, Sonic Radical Cross GT!

Serge (Sonic's dead) travels across dimensions to find the black chaos emeralds with the reincarnated sister of Mephiles, Shadow (+ a ridiculous moustache), a younger Silver, Sonic's spunky granddaughter, and a silent Mephiles under an assumed name, opposed by Lynx.

 
(@gyserhog)
Posts: 1241
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Beautiful. Just... Beautiful.

I have tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat! ...Wait, that was the curry...

Regardless of my stomach worries, the Sonic series is just a lovely melting pot of rip-off.... Err, homages to many things, including the previously mentioned DBZ, Chrono Trigger, and of course, Star Wars.

Go Sonic Team! Originality be dammed!

 
(@spiner-storm)
Posts: 2016
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I don't think any words can describe what I'm feeling right now, so a simply emoticon will do.

o.o

 
(@sailor-rose-dust)
Posts: 1573
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XD

Vec, that was completely and utterly brilliant. You deserve a Golden Brain Award.

 
 Pach
(@pach)
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Piccolo was never the guardian of the Dragon, his counterpart Kami was. If he was, he'd never have destroyed the dragon after he wished for immortality. :crazy This is further evidenced when he merges with Kami again and the dragonballs are lost so they need a new guardian. :O

But anyway, nicely correct on the other points.

 
(@psxphile_1722027877)
Posts: 5772
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All it needed was a soundtrack by Mitsuda.

Oh, and several months more development time. Yeah.

 
(@zack-materia-hunter)
Posts: 250
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MU HA HA HA HA, This is great.

 
 Deus
(@deus_1722585687)
Posts: 377
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Sooo will we be seeing a 3rd transformation with the hedgehogs soon? Sonic has only revealed his 2nd transformation.

 
(@bloocheez3)
Posts: 261
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the next game will be Sonic mostly standing there charging up.

"uhgh ugh ugh...That's IMPOSSIBLE!!"
"IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!111"

 
(@pc-the-hedgehog_1722585862)
Posts: 146
Estimable Member
 

Of course, we can't forget Sonic X GT, as they scour the planets in search of the Dr--Chaos Emeralds. ;)

 
(@miss-puar)
Posts: 462
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To make it even more mondo cool, they oughta ride around on Nimb-- Extreme Gear. Except for Shadow, who's unpure heart limits him to Capsu-- Jeeps. :spin

 
(@nelstone)
Posts: 899
Prominent Member
 

Eggman: "Shadow, what does my eggscouter say about his chaos level?!"

 
(@ice-the-rabbit)
Posts: 73
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They already had a second transformation.

Super Sonic T...Hyper Sonic, anyone?

 
(@zack-materia-hunter)
Posts: 250
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We just gotta wait for the form where Sonic's spikes go down to his feet!

 
(@shadonic_1722027905)
Posts: 1413
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Wow this thread would have made so much sense if Toriyama HAD ACTUALLY CREATED Chrono Trigger instead of just only designing the characters.

 
(@gyserhog)
Posts: 1241
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Stop being a spoil sport, and laugh like the rest of us. It's just a joke.

Sun, cloud, ect.

 
(@spiner-storm)
Posts: 2016
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Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Heart! nN

 
(@zack-materia-hunter)
Posts: 250
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Quote:


Wow this thread would have made so much sense if Toriyama HAD ACTUALLY CREATED Chrono Trigger instead of just only designing the characters.


HA, like that matters to Sonic Team...if it smells like Toriyama, it's theirs...
And Dragon Quest is next on their list...

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNN...

 
(@miss-puar)
Posts: 462
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Too late my friend. Cheese = Blue Slime.
Great. The apocaplyse cometh, and it looks like my fridge.

 
(@shadonic_1722027905)
Posts: 1413
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People keep mentioning Sonic Team ripping off Toriyama yet they all forget he rip off DC Comic Superman to make Adult Goku.They both share the same background( both are the last survivors, well at least till Supergirl and Zod, Vegeta and Nappa arrive, of their doomed planet and later crash land on Earth where they are raised by kind people), both of their real names starts with K(Superman has Kal-El and Goku is Kakarot), both their real fathers played a larger role in their life than their mothers,both have brooding and mysterious friend who has protege(Superman has Batman with Robin and Goku has Piccolo with Gohan), both wear the same colors(red,blue and yellow), both are way stronger than their friends and of course the most obvious one Clark is called a Superman while Goku is called a Super Saiyan.Honestly everything is a homage or rip off of something else.Originality die in late 80'I believe.

 
(@zack-materia-hunter)
Posts: 250
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Interesting theory, I'm not much of a Superman fan, so I hate to think that Dragon Ball used that as a basis for "Z", but to be honest, is there really an original idea these days?
(Actually, the Mario games are a tad more original in their storylines...or lack of)

 
(@dirk-amoeba)
Posts: 1437
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There are many similarities between Goku and Superman, but then again, Superman occasionally draws from tradition about Jesus, which draws from Hebrew theology (which draws from Mesopotamian theology as well as Persian and Greek influences) as well as Neoplatonic thought (which draws from Platonic thought, which draws from Socratic thought)

But even if Dragon Ball did rip off Superman, it was actually more closely related (at least at its beginning) to "A Journey to the West." And it didn't "rip off" AJttW per se, so much as it parodied it and was admittedly inspired by it.

Keep in mind that Super Sonic and the seventh Chaos Emerald premiered in Sonic 2. When Sonic 1 was released, Goku had not yet become a Super Saiyan in the anime (whether he had in the manga, I'm not sure. Judging from the circumstances which led to the Garlic Junior saga's existence, i'm guessing that if he had, it was very very recent).

The time during which Sonic 2 was in development (sometime between Summer 1991 to Autumn 1992) featured the focus of Dragon Ball Z shifting toward Super Saiyans (this time included the end of the Freeza Saga up through the Imperfect Cell Saga). So when Sonic 2 was in development, the "Super Saiyan" revolution was in full swing.

Bearing this in mind, it seems unlikely that Super Sonic is a mere ripoff, and more likely an homage to the extremely popular Dragon Ball Z series, which was mirrored by the introduction of the seventh emerald.

Perhaps the current development team sees this as something of a tradition. If so, then I think it's going too far.

 
(@psxphile_1722027877)
Posts: 5772
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Coincidently, Sonic 2 was in development on US soil. DBZ's presence in the US was practically non-existant save for some fansubs floating about in VHS tape form. We already know Naka was a DBZ nut, but we now also know that during his tenure at STI he had tapes of the show mailed to him from Japan.

 
(@veckums)
Posts: 1758
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Topic starter
 

Update:

Trunks (Silver) isn't aware that he actually helps the monstrous villain Cell (Mephiles) who also travels back in time to target the enemy that destroyed the future, but instead of killing that enemy, he wants to merge with it to achieve his ULTIMATE POWAR! His plans are of course foiled but because of a lame plot device he achieves his ULTIMATE POWAR! anyway, and can only be brought down when the heroes work together. This episode is where everybody pretty much says the series has jumped the shark.

The series takes a totally different route with the hero actually in another world. However he runs into the Djinn Buu (Erazor), who, oh forget it, he actually %^&$ing LOOKS LIKE BUU! HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO PARODY?

What's really amazing about this is not that they keep doing it, but I just can't believe THEY'RE DOING IT IN ORDER (other than Super Saiyan).

 
(@elias5-1991)
Posts: 534
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Quote:


Bearing this in mind, it seems unlikely that Super Sonic is a mere ripoff, and more likely an homage to the extremely popular Dragon Ball Z series, which was mirrored by the introduction of the seventh emerald.


Hehe, homage is a nice way of saying "rip off"

And, I'm unsure, but I think DBZ started as a Manga, right?
And the anime is a take off from that manga?
So...didn't Goku battle Frieza in the manga in the 80s?
<shrug> I really don't know. All I REALLY know is that Dragonball manga started in the 80s.

 
(@sailor-rose-dust)
Posts: 1573
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Now we just have to wait for them to introduce fusion (via a dance and/or pieces of jewelry).

 
(@veckums)
Posts: 1758
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Topic starter
 

Quote:


And, I'm unsure, but I think DBZ started as a Manga, right?
And the anime is a take off from that manga?
So...didn't Goku battle Frieza in the manga in the 80s?
<shrug> I really don't know. All I REALLY know is that Dragonball manga started in the 80s.


Remember that the original Dragonball was very long, BEFORE the Z series came along, which was intended to be the ending (that's why the letter Z was used). The reason the anime is so painfully slow-paced and loaded with filler is that they were releasing episodes almost in synchronization with the manga.

Honestly when I played SA2 and saw Sonic and Shadow doing their weird hand dance with emeralds flying around them I was shocked that they turned into 2 super hedgehogs instead of a fusion, which I was expecting.

 
(@super-shadic-01_1722585742)
Posts: 609
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Expect Erazor to destroy the world with his out-of-control power as Kid Erazor, and Sonic meets Shadow half-way through the story and these two are the only ones able to defeat the djinn, as the battle of epic proportions ensues, with the fate of Arabian Nights, Earth, and the rest of the universe hangs into balance!!!

Outside topic though, I really like Erazor's look though. I think he's one of the better looking villains we've seen in the Sonic universe so far, despite his similarities to Buu.

 
(@dirk-amoeba)
Posts: 1437
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Quote:


Hehe, homage is a nice way of saying "rip off"


"rip off" is blatant copying, ie, plagiarism. "Homage" is a reference, often tounge-in-cheek. I think that the similarities started as homages but it got out of hand and has become a bit more rip-off ish. Although some of the similarities are most likely coincidences.

 
(@elias5-1991)
Posts: 534
Honorable Member
 

^True. Like most things, it started out innocent, but then SPIRALLED DOWN A HOLE OF MEANINGLESS AND BLATANT EVIL!
^_^
What's good is that I love both DBZ and Sonic the Hedgehog, so hell, I'm happy =P

 
(@sonicv2)
Posts: 2191
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Now if you mention something about Iblis, the Arabian Nights, and throw in Muhummad somewhere, you say Sonic is currently using Muslim culture. :crazy

 
(@gamer-x)
Posts: 189
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You can also compare Shadow and Knuckles to Vegeta and Piccolo.

Knuckles(Piccolo), the original rival of the main hero Sonic(Goku), who has a loose link with the Chaos Emeralds(Dragonballs), eventually becomes an ally to a greater threat, Eggman(Raditz).

Shadow(Vegeta) is a dark mirror of Sonic(Goku), who eventually replaces Knux(Piccolo) as a true rival to the hero, because simply of there very similar abilities and their sharp contrasts of personalities. Sonic and Shadow(Goku and Vegeta), who started out as enimies and polar opposites of each other, work together for greater impending threats such as the Biolizard(Frieza), Metal Overlord(Cell), and Black Doom(Buu, loosely). Shadow(Vegeta) is also shocked how a seamingly normal hedgehog/low-class saiyan, Sonic(Goku), is able to match and sometimes surpass him in abilities.

I'm a DBZ nut.(LOL):cuckoo :cuckoo

 
 WB
(@_wb_)
Posts: 419
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So does this mean that Big the Cat is gonna eventually become Fat Buu, cause if so then WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH >__<

PS. He's actually a totoro :crazy

 
(@french-sonic-x-fan_1722585871)
Posts: 26
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Knuckles is more close to Yamcha that Piccolo.

Knuckles begin as a ennemy for Sonic, before turning into a allie and finaly turn into a comic relief character, like Yamcha.
Knuckles/Yamcha like Rouge/Bulma, but Rouge/Bulma became closer to Shadow/Vegeta.

 
(@gamer-x)
Posts: 189
Estimable Member
 

Nah, Knuckles was the original rival to Sonic. Much like Piccolo was the original rival to Goku. Besides, before Sega made the characters' personalities shallower versions of themselves, Knuckles had a much more serious personality. Knuckles also has a connection to the Chaos Emeralds, much like Piccolo has a connection to the dragonballs.

Knuckles=Piccolo

 
(@sailor-unicron)
Posts: 1694
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So who does Metal Sonic match up to? Cell?

 
(@french-sonic-x-fan_1722585871)
Posts: 26
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Chaos has more in common with Piccolo that Knuckles.

Both get sealed after tried to devastate the world.
Both are liked to seven magics objects. (For the connection with the chaos emeralds, Chaos was guarding them even before the echnida found them, meaning the link is stronger with Chaos that with knuckles)
Both have regerative powers.
Piccolo used the seven dragon balls to regain his full potential/Chaos used the seven chaos emeralds to regain his full potential.

 
(@miss-puar)
Posts: 462
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Goku had many rivals before Piccolo. Yamcha, Namu, Muten Roshi (Jackie Chun), Kuririn, etc. All faught in Budokais. You could even argue Ranfan and Bacteria were rivals as they both wanted the title, tho neither faced Goku. Tenshinhan also appears before Piccolo and could be consired a rival (both in schooling- under the tutelage of Crane Hermit and in battle). And there's Pilaf and Oolong who both wanted the Dragonballs (tho Oolong got his wish and became friends) so rivals for items. The Red Ribbon Army and Baba (fortune-tellers) minions I see more as opponents than rivals but meh. I'm probly forgetting some- been ages since I read the manga and longer still last I saw Toonami. Ain't counting the Slump crossover, filler villains, or fairytale puns.
Point is Knuckles can be argued as Piccolo or Yamcha depending on saga (game), but Piccolo =/= Goku's first rival.
EDIT: Beaten by fast typers. For the record, I'm liking the Chaos as Piccolo analogy. Got to think about Metal for awhile. There's a crapload of androids in the Series but which one fits (maayyybe Gero/#20, sorta iffy)? Gamma is totally #16.

 
(@gamer-x)
Posts: 189
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All the people you mentioned were simply situational competitive rivals. Piccolo was Goku's first true rival, as in they constantly trained to basically kill each other. I can see the Chaos/Piccolo thing,though, but he can't because he simply dosen't have a big enough role in the series. Knuckles fits better as Piccolo as you parallel the Sonic story with DBZ, as opposed to Chaos who never really became an ally to Sonic like Knuckles.

I would put Metal Overlord as Cell, though. He was created from the of cells/DNA from the strongest warriors/lifeforms to become a powerful being capable destroying the world.

 
(@psxphile_1722027877)
Posts: 5772
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There's no such thing as Perfect Neo Metal Sonic. There is such a thing as Perfect Chaos. A lifeform that continued to evolve and grow as it absorbed the most powerful sources of energy on the planet in the name of revenge... indeed, the very same sources it was meant to have. Chaos was Sonic Team's take on the Cell saga, applied to their own creation.

Metal Overlord was basically Chaos with the ability to talk and a different method for growth potential, drawn from the same source.

 
(@sailor-unicron)
Posts: 1694
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That makes sense, both character-wise and storyline-wise.

I'll be worried if they introduce fusion, though, especially through jewelry.

 
(@gamer-x)
Posts: 189
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So if Metal Overlord=Chaos, thet means I was right, right? Actually, now once I think about it, SH Metal Sonic fits better. Metal Sonic was created to kill and destroy Sonic, much like Cell and the other androids were made to kill Goku. Also, Metal Sonic was made from the overall design from Sonic, much like Cell was made from Goku's cells nd all the others. Metal Sonic was also manmade, like Cell.

Also which games are which Sagas? I was actually reconsidering Black Doom as Baby, instead of Buu.

 
(@miss-puar)
Posts: 462
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I think it depends on your POV. F'rinstance you define rival as someone who wants to kill you, I defined it as someone you competed with for a prize. Neither is wrong just different. Once you explained I saw your point and am sorry if I somehow ofended ya earlier ^^;

I stayed away from GT for reasons I won't get into hear so I can't make any Baby arguments. Black Doom reminded me of King Cold/Freeza (alien army bent on takeover, changed "forms" and gained power). Riders reminded me of the original DB storyline with Jet as Yamcha (foe-turned-friend), Wave as Bulma (bossy female mechanic), and Storm as a combined Oolong/Puar (bit cowardly and easily controled by "Bulma", fiercly loyal to "Yamcha"). Extreme Gear I viewed as Capsule Corp Products. Others may see varying paralels.

 
(@gamer-x)
Posts: 189
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That's okay, you didn't offend me. I also see your point as well. What I really meant was as a rival as a person your constantly trying to surpass or be better than; Goku and Piccolo fit that much more than the people you mentioned.

You are smart though for avoiding GT. GT was like a fanfic going horribly, horribly bad. I was going to compared Black Doom to baby, but Lord Slug fits better. Both were alien invaders who basically started accustoming the planet to their perferences. They both invaded the planet by comets and turned the world into a more apocolyptic setting.

 
(@dreamer-of-nights)
Posts: 2354
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Quote:


Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Heart! nN


No Captain Planet summoning in this thread.

Very interesting article. I ponder though, what was the inspiration of Silver the Hedgehog and Blaze the Cat (besides the blatantly obvious "homage" to DB).

 
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