Even with a Mario bias I don't think he'd be wrong to compare Sonic to Mario.

The sheer fact is Nintendo have been the most successful company to release a console, with three colossal successes in the home console field and nothing toppling the Gameboy/DS momentum, and Mario's games almost always getting high ratings with only the peripheral spinoffs starting to wane with repetition.

Sega and Sonic however? The best answer is no real direction and no care besides a purely profitable basis.

Sega have proven they can still make good games too; Yakuza 1 and 2, Virtua Fighter 5, Mad World, and Valkyria Chronicles all getting very good to great reviews, it's clear that Sega CAN and WILL make a compelling, deep, fun, and innovative games when they feel the urge, they just don't care if it's an old franchise that only the nostalgic or children will care for. See Golden Axe: Beast Rider and the less recent PS2 reincarnation of Altered Beast for farther evidence.

Most of these fans who try to analyze why Sonic doesn't work end up being embarrassingly superficial and hypocritical.

The real answers include what Robo said plus buying into the "Sonic is speed" hype, not using momentum, and being too lazy/cheap to create truly complex levels.

I think the biggest thing that should be analyzed is the gameplay. Everything else I can kinda ignore.

Not to say that an actual GOOD story wouldn't be appreciated.

I think they should get rid of the big cast only for the core games, and they can save those second-tier characters for party games and such. Of course this would mean Sega would have to start making Sonic party games.

Of course this would mean Sega would have to start making Sonic party games.

There was already one such game and that was more than enough. >_>

Sonic Shuffle 2 for the win

this is Rediculous, making sonic like mario is silly, I mean if he means make the games have the same quality as mario thats fine, but if he means make sonic copy everything mario does thats stupid, yea the mario games our great but there not perfect, mario's had some stingers too...*Cough sluggers Cough* BUt yea SEGA just needs to sit back & realize that they either need to use the classic formula or adventure formula for sonic Consle games cause thats waht the fans want simple as that!

and nothings wrong with sonic having a big background cast! You can tell this guy doesn't watch the shows or read the comics! LULZ.

and nothings wrong with sonic having a big background cast!

MovieBob's suggestions are, more often than not, right on the money. I'm personally looking forward to hearing what he has to say.

I still think his idea of Nintendo making Mario Paintball for Wii is the greatest thing ever.

I don't know if I'll agree on Sonic, though. Sega has proven that they can, indeed, use Sonic's speed in both 2d and 3d plains and having Tails and Knuckles for exploration themed levels worked well in SA1. Doing the whole "3 character" thing in 2006 was worthless as you're playing three versions of Sonic, but they have already done what I guess he's angling at in the past.

I don't think confining him to handheld and DLC will do much either.

So I'm eager to see what he has to say, but quite skeptical, too. Which is rare. MovieBob is someone I seldom disagree with.

this is Rediculous, making sonic like mario is silly, I mean if he means make the games have the same quality as mario thats fine, but if he means make sonic copy everything mario does thats stupid, yea the mario games our great but there not perfect, mario's had some stingers too...*Cough sluggers Cough* BUt yea SEGA just needs to sit back & realize that they either need to use the classic formula or adventure formula for sonic Consle games cause thats waht the fans want simple as that!

and nothings wrong with sonic having a big background cast! You can tell this guy doesn't watch the shows or read the comics! LULZ.

Who said anything about completely copying Mario? If anyone is saying anything it would be making him more Mario-like, silent, for the most part, focus on gameplay and level design over plot and exposition, and remember who the star of your game is and why*.

In my opinion Sonic is a lost cause in Sega, or at least Sonic Team's hands, and I would really like to see Dimps take over more often, or ask someone else to try, like Nintendo. I mean, if Sega can make an F-Zero, and make it awesome, then why not let Nintendo have a go at Sonic?

*This is what caused Sunshine to be so widely hated.

Who said anything about completely copying Mario? If anyone is saying anything it would be making him more Mario-like, silent, for the most part, focus on gameplay and level design over plot and exposition, and remember who the star of your game is and why*.

*This is what caused Sunshine to be so widely hated.

Being silent, focusing on gameplay and level design over plot didn't really help Crash Bandicoot in the end now did it ?
Also when wasn't Sushine not focusing on Mario? I mean he and Bowser Jr were pretty much the stars of the game.

Hah well you can blame Crash Bandicoots run to ruin on Naughty Dog who sold him out. He's changed hands more than a hopeless foster child.

I thought Crash started talking more recently...

Also the * was to indicate that Sunshine forgot WHY Mario is great, giving him a tool t solve boring clean up puzzles and reduced actual platforming into mini levels, so I guess I could argue it focused on FLUDD too but it wasn't what I meant.

Personally I like Sunshine, I prefer 64 and Galaxy like I prefer chocolate and ice cream to bread and cheese but I still think it's a fun game with some stunning locales and nice mechanics.

Sonic on the other hand is a colossal mess of bad ideas for gameplay, level design, mechanics, development time, characters, and so on and so forth, and I get sick of fans not caring just because they still have fun regardless, which I can appreciate, but no longer care to.

lol I still have fun regardless XD .

From my knowledge Crash still doesn't talk. He mutters and makes weird sounds but doesn't speak full sentences. Yet somehow his new developers screw him up completely. I remember back in his naughty dog days fans considered him (sort of) a Tazmanian Devil clone. But now he almost IS Taz. He's just a stupid character. He acts stupid he looks stupid. I admit he looked silly in the beggining but now its just ugh. At least back in his ND days you could give his intelligence the benefit of the doubt. He was silent so he was as dumb or smart, cool/ functionally lame as you wanted him to be. But no. He's just a retard now. They even messed up his sister Coco. I don't know how but they did.

Ah, show's how much I've kept up with the series.

Oh, and...

At least back in his ND days you could give his intelligence the benefit of the doubt. He was silent so he was as dumb or smart, cool/ functionally lame as you wanted him to be. But no. He's just a retard now.

Sounds a little familiar somehow. 😛

Not really. Sure Sonic talks now. But Crash somehow managed to get worse without uttering a word. Naughty Dog just knew how to take care of their games. The people who have Crash now do not. So I guess it can easily be said that Sonic Team no longer knows or cares about how to take care of their own mascot. But it has nothing to do with talking or being silent.

to be honest i thought the game play for the recent sonic unleashed was actually the best I've seen in the series since the sonic rush games.

as for the characters, i rather like the large cast but don't care for the change in roles like stirring knuckles away from angel island

It's not like the currently 'large' cast is inherently bad or anything, because it's not. It's just that I think that side characters (and they ARE side characters) like Cream, Big, Rouge etc. should be relegated primarily to filler Sonic games, not major Sonic games. Leave these characters for the storybook/sport/party games. It seems to me as if Sonic Team thinks that their inclusion in almost EVERY Sonic game is obligatory, when clearly, it's not.

I think they've gotten the message on that tbh, Shadow the Hedgehog being the lone playable character of his game, Sonic, Shadow and Silver didn't really make a diverse amount of gameplay styles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2k6, Sonic and Blaze being almost the same in Rush, Sonic being the only playable character in Secret Rings, and again in Unleashed even with the Wolfhog gameplay that only amounts to two gameplay styles, admittedly one more than I want but at least we don't have a Sonic Heroes problem, and we haven't had as many styles as the first Adventure.

There is nothing wrong with lots of playables. If S3&K had 20 playables, each with worthwhile gameplay, it would be considered an asset, just as it is for MvC.

1. Since Sonic Adventure, playables have been not "Sonic with different moves that let you add depth to the game" but often terrible minigames.

2. The addition of dialogue which is bad to begin with and then badly translated and then badly voice cast and then badly voice acted.

3. The games have been bad and the cast has been increasing at the same time. Most people have bad analytical skills and thus blame by association. If Tails and Knuckles came to the series recently they would be scapegoats also.

4. Many new cast members are not designed well, and the talentless current Sonic Team has been terrible with the better cast members. Silver is about the most ridiculous design I have ever seen even. Marine looks decent but is there to be annoying. Blaze is the best new member but her existence is utterly confusing nonsense. Shadow was a good design but they marysue'd him after correctly killing him off after his role was complete. Omega exists only because of Gamma but he is written as a polar opposite. Knuckles has turned from rival to sidekick who occasionally becomes a rival for no good reason. Vector got buff which was a bad idea and then that now-fired idiot voice actor came along. Espio... actually the ninja thing was a good idea, but they made it the only thing, and they left out any other traits.

The point is, no other series gets complaints about "too many playables" because it is a stupid thing to complain about and is normally an asset. Sonic Team is just doing it wrong.

Espio... actually the ninja thing was a good idea, but they made it the only thing, and they left out any other traits.

haha Espio never had other traits in the video game. A ninja is all he is.

You make a good point Vec, the multitude of characters isn't inherently the problem, but the tacking on of alternative gameplay styles.

I can think of loads of games with multiple characters that don't change the game but mix things up with varied attributes.

However, I think there is a point where we have to ask what purpose most of the cast serve now, Sonic, Knuckles, Tails, and Amy are the only characters that are unique to themselves at some point, others being alternative versions of the first three...I guess Silver stands out to, but I still don't like him! }:-(

Edit: Part 2 is finally up.

I agree to most of what he says, minus the idea about killing off the cast, I'm more in favour of the reboot idea taking inspiration from SatAM, though I'd recommend StC more so out of bias...

I also disagree about the cities, Star Light Zone and Casino Night Zone both have big cities in the background, however if they're the remnants of humans no longer around on the planet, like the city in the OVA then I'd be very happy.

Some of the stuff he suggested has already been done in the 3D games with some questionable results, such as the running on water gimmick.

And ugh, at the story reboot suggestion.

I don't think a story reboot is a bad idea in this case, as much as I loath retcons and resets I would much rather that than the current mess we have.

The question is could SEGA do it without falling into the same crap hole?

Haven't seen the videos. Cant be bothered to be angry any more.

Why a story retcon? The events barely follow game to game. The only possible exceptions are The Adventure series (even then its blink and you'll miss it) and Shadow (lol).

What I think he mean is if you are going to do a big story, spread it over a few games. Like Beyond Good and Evil and Too Human... ohwait. But then again the Sonic series is profitable enough to do that. Re-establish the universe(Characters, art etc.) within those games.
Game 1: Establish Sonic and close friends and Eggman and their goals. Nothing too major.
Game 2: Establish the extended world. (GUN, Angel Island etc.)
Game 3: Try and sort out the future world and Blaze's dimension.
Game 4: (A more Adventure styled plot, Multiple characters meeting up) Eggman Wins at the end of the game.To be continued....
Game 5: Sonic beats Eggman. General Staredown between Eggman and Sonic at the end.
Start it over again.
Its not completely rigid as planning out a trilogy of games. There would be room for spin offs and the like in between the games.

Sir Vec is spot on about the playable characters.

The basic trouble with the Sonic games is they haven't managed to get Sonic to work properly, so if they cant get Sonic to work properly they cant get Metal Sonic, Shadow and Blaze to work because they are effectively Sonic. They cant get Tails to work because Tails is Flying Sonic. They cant get Knuckles to work because he is Gliding and Climbing Sonic. They cant get Rouge to work because she is a strange mix of Tails and Knuckles and her abilities vary from game to game. They cant get Espio to work because he is Stealth Sonic. Etc.

The only possible exceptions to the rule that "They are Sonic" are Amy and Silver. Even then they are still working from the broken gameplay that Sonic works from.

Also, can Sonic games look like Sonic games again? I mean you know, I'm cool with making the checkerboards looking uber realistic with water erosion and stuff, but even in the very cartoony Unleashed its hard for me to like the levels. I used to like them but after a while they lose their charm. Christ, I'll even take game that looks like a 3D Rush.

Hah. I love how he says they should start calling him Dr. Robotnik again now as if every Sonic fan in the world agrees with that.

I think He should call himself Robotnik and everyone else calls him Eggman as an insult.

Hah. I love how he says they should start calling him Dr. Robotnik again now as if every Sonic fan in the world agrees with that.

I think He should call himself Robotnik and everyone else calls him Eggman as an insult.

Also I see no reason why there shouldn't be any humans. the old 2D games had plenty a city themed levels.

Although it could be argued that those levels are comprised of the ancient remains of human society that no longer exsists soooo eeeh i dunno.

I don't think a story reboot is a bad idea in this case, as much as I loath retcons and resets I would much rather that than the current mess we have.

The question is could SEGA do it without falling into the same crap hole?

The idea of a reboot isn't that bad in itself, it's just his ideas for a possible reboot I disagree with. Explanations of why Sonic his blue or inner tormoils of having to leave his home village? That's just as bad as many of the stories we have in the post-Genesis/MD era as we have today. It also seems silly that he wants Sonic to follow the Mario path when Mario's stories are pretty dang simplistic, and arguably better for it.

I also disagree that Sonic's world should be dominated by only animals/animals living in villages and cities--unless by animals he means the South Island friends and not the multicolored funny cartoon animal cast he specifically said he loathed. I also don't mind good humans appearing either as long as they are stylized like Eggman and npc.

Overall the video isn't that different than every other "This is how to save Sonic" article that is available on the net.

I did like the gameplay ideas he touched upon. Like the running over water thing. Sonic Team hasn't done it in the way he described and I personally think that would be fun. I've actually said that exact same idea to some friends of mine at school. muwaha.

I also agree with the idea of using more momentum to grain speed instead of just boost pads/boosting all the time so that you can have the option of using both methods. He didn't really talk about level design in any substantial way. Oh well.

But Sonic running over water was in Unleashed and the Advance games. I think that mechanic in Unleashed would be better if there was a whole 'nother level below the water instead of a bottomless pit.

I don't think enemies actively attacked you when you ran over water in Unleashed. And I think he meant that as a whole level instead of just a piece of a level.

That sounds like a recipe for ROM-hack level disaster--especially if the running water mechanics are the same as Unleashed.

Reminds me of Genocide City (from Sonic 2 rom beta, sans the water of course).

The idea of a reboot isn't that bad in itself, it's just his ideas for a possible reboot I disagree with. Explanations of why Sonic his blue or inner tormoils of having to leave his home village? That's just as bad as many of the stories we have in the post-Genesis/MD era as we have today. It also seems silly that he wants Sonic to follow the Mario path when Mario's stories are pretty dang simplistic, and arguably better for it.

True, but he does admit to just pulling it out of his arse for the sake of argument, and his point was mainly about characterizing Sonic and pals so we can connect to them better. However I don't think this is necessary for a good story, Link has never been characterized as anything more than a hero of prophesy but has always had decent stories regardless. And even if they do, trying to explain why Sonic is blue and fast doesn't work anyway, because then there's why does Tails have two tails, why is Knuckles red, why is Amy pink, why do all the animals stand on two legs and talk, and so on, it's just not needed.

That sounds like a recipe for ROM-hack level disaster--especially if the running water mechanics are the same as Unleashed.

Then the mechanics wouldn't be like the ones from Unleashed of course. And there would be brief moments of reprive so you aren't running constantly over the ocean. So basically running across water to island to island to island.

True, but he does admit to just pulling it out of his arse for the sake of argument, and his point was mainly about characterizing Sonic and pals so we can connect to them better. However I don't think this is necessary for a good story, Link has never been characterized as anything more than a hero of prophesy but has always had decent stories regardless. And even if they do, trying to explain why Sonic is blue and fast doesn't work anyway, because then there's why does Tails have two tails, why is Knuckles red, why is Amy pink, why do all the animals stand on two legs and talk, and so on, it's just not needed.

Oh I do have to agree that Sega's work on characterization for this franchise has been pretty poor. It seems like Sega want to keep the four main protagonists(Sonic, Tails Knuckles and Amy) personalities one-diminsional as possible while having them sputter out too much inane dialogue that makes them unappealing. Sega could have continued the route in the current games which was established in the Genesis/MD games in which everyone was mute and let their actions/gestures speak for themselves(maybe have Eggman as the only one dialogue), however they seem to choose the path that everybody is a squawk-box. This wouldn't have been too bad if the dialogue wasn't cringe-worthy and the characters haven't been Flanderized to the point of being dull, stupid, and repulsive. Part of the problem is that many characters beyond the main four are clones archetype-wise and/or personality-wise. My theory is that due to this Sega/ST dilutes any of the more interesting/reedeming parts of the main four to transfer that to newer characters in a shoddy attempt at differentation.

haha Espio never had other traits in the video game. A ninja is all he is.

Have you played Chaotix? His animations had more style to them than Sonic's and he seems to be even more of a showoff. But neo Sonic Team thinks that "being like Sonic" is a bad thing.

And you had me at "reboot to SatAM and make Sonic emo about leaving his village." This guy is the last person to talk to.

And you had me at "reboot to SatAM and make Sonic emo about leaving his village." This guy is the last person to talk to.

That's an unfair oversimplification of what he said, he used SatAM as an example of when story was cared for a lot more than it is currently, and gave his self admitted half arsed idea as an example of characterization, both of which are major problems with the series as it stands.

Even if we do compare Mario to Sonic in terms of story, Mario always sticks to stories that work for Mario, knowing that he isn't someone for deep emotive narratives and at best use humour and storybook styles for the RPGs and Galaxy respectively. With Sonic they always try to do some overblown plot with wooden characters, apocalyptic scenarios, bad cliches, and forgetting that Sonic isn't Bruce Willis but a metre tall blue talking hedgehog with super speed. And when they don't do this they fill the game with bad dialogue, and just throw random plot points in like Shadow coming back from the dead with barely anyone noticing he should be dead.

And he must let the world believe that he is dead, until he can find a way to control the raging spirit within him.

stolen from here, natch

Shadow Unleashed - coming to game stores on the 21st of December 2012!

If the levels no longer had bottomless pits, then they would instantly be better. I swear, it's like the new Sonic Team only played that one unescapable-pit section of Mystic Cave over and over again for "retro inspiration".

"We are your darkest thoughts made manifest, Sonic-man. That's why we call ourselves... Shadow."

"Shadow Unleashed!!! Play as a 50+ year old werewolf alien demon-possessed ultimate-lifeform hedgehog... with guns!"

Touche.

Ha! This kinda relates t the topic. I guess...

http://stars.ign.com/articles/976/976353p1.html

I am shocked that Sonic didn't make no 1 for a list like this for once...

I am shocked that Sonic didn't make no 1 for a list like this for once...

Spoiler [+]

though I guess it has to do with Master Chief being better flame-bait for trolls

XD! Indeed Ashide. I was expecting him to be pretty high, but Master Chief is definitely one of those, as you put it, better flame baits. 😛 Still though...3rd is nothing not to brag about.

What? >_>

hah I've actually started to call Donkey Kong the "Sonic" of the Nintendo Franchise myself.

I feel sorry for DK, actually. Like...he was Nintendo, you know. Mario is a DK character not the other way around as it is so many times stated. Poor DK...just wants to find that Crystal Coconut. 😛