This topic is far from being stupid. Believe me, their are some people here who share some of your concerns of the curent situations of the franchise.

I will say that to Sega, Sonic is nothing more of a commodity for the die-hard fans and children in the same way that games that are based on movies and cartoons sell to those fans. Most of the current Sonic games are not really good especially when you compare it to more critically acclaimed games in its genre. The only reason why they still sell much more than Sega's other and better games in that people are attracted to the characters. It seems that many people seem to lost sight, don't know, or seem to don't care what made the previous main games so special. =(

Well it must be hard to recapture the glory of the original StH games. Personaly, I think the Sonic Adventure games were the perfect 3d conversion to Sonic. However, a better camera system, and more classic Sonic-Style levels were needed. (though I did enjoy the shooting)

My theory is, that once the Dreamcast died they stopped caring. XD

~T2K

I don't think things will ever feel like they once were, though I do have the same opinion as you, just about.

I gave hope with the new StH game for the 360/PS3 ... but it randomly spit out a new hedgehog and Shadow, and that just killed me inside in ways unimaginable.

It does seem that since the Dreamcast died Sonic Team have started a churning session with the recent Sonic titles. In the 3/4 year life of the DC we had 4/5 Sonic games
Sonic Adventure
Sonic Adventure: Euro Edition
Sonic Pocket Adventure
Sonic Shuffle
Sonic Adventure 2

Since Dreamcast died we had (discounting Mega/Gems Collections):
Sonic Adventure 2: Battle (I thought it wasnt that bad really)
Sonic Advance (bit meh really.)
Sonic Advance 2 (I liked it. It isnt as limiting as everyone says it is)
Sonic Adventure DX: Directors Cut (Oh dear)
Sonic Pinball Party (Not bad but not as good as Spinball)
Sonic Heroes (Read later)
Sonic Battle (I liked this, I really liked this)
Shadow (Read later)
Sonic Rush (Haven't played it)
Sonic Riders (Liked this)

Now I thought that Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 where good ladder climbing sort of games. Adventure 2 improved the graphics and tightened up the controls from Adventure. Then the dream died and they tried a new Team Play system and it didn't work. But if they actually tried to finish the game instead of, meh its almost done print it. I mean the first six levels in Heroes were great. I loved 'em. But the second half of the game, special stages, bosses and general pit o death stuff killed my love for the game long ago. So instead of a half decent stab at something new it became the source of all Sonic hatred. Bad Camera (It was a fusion of Adventure 1 and 2 cameras) and you can fall through the floor like you could do in Adventure.

Shadow was the same thing. Tried something new: Gun Play was poo. Vehicles handled realistically 😛 (Well the hummer did!) and the whole good and evil thing was bad and then there was a final story which killed it off. Destructable stuff was okay though. I did enjoy this game though, It felt more focussed than Heroes and Adventure and some of the levels were fun (The Ark, Gun Fortress and Lava Shelter). Again it should have been another half decent stab at something new, didn't work and move on but it was unpolished like Heroes.

My arguement for these two games is that they should have been playtested to death. When you die in these games you always get the feeling that it wasn't your fault and that wasn't the way in the classics. They should have been much more better than they were. Then they could be accused of trying something and it didn't work but at least you would have a half decent game in your machine.

I loved Riders though.

Hopefully though Sonic 06, Wild Fire and maybe even Rivals (you never know...) could be great and get Sonic back on track. Heck apparently all they need to work on for Sonic 06 is the controls and the Camera. Just minor things then :rolleyes.

I'm (always) optimistic of the future of the Sonic games.
Yes they have been diluted really. Its like they can design: new characters, visual style, and some not bad levels but they cant be arsed to do the little things like Camera, polish glitches and better controls to make the games at least enjoyable.

Rivals is being developed by a completely different company that has not been previously tied to Sega and lacks a portfolio of decent games so who knows how it will turn out. I will say this is that Rivals, out of the new Sonic games announced looks quite boring from the movies I've seen.

I also have a feeling that Sonic 2K6 will unfortunatly suffer the same main problems that Heroes and Shadow in that it will have a feeling of being rushed. I mean, from the people who've played the game at E3 were already complaining about the camera and controls. I mean, there is a lower opinion on this game's demo than Sonic Heroes' demo three years ago at E3. I know this game is due sometime in November, but I have the feeling that that would not be enough.

I guess it doesn't matter anyway, since Sonic games will usually sell whether they are polished or not. The successful sales of Heroes and *ugh* Shadow proves this. I think that is part of the problem.

Here's what I think the problem is, ever since SEGA stopped making consoles they've basically struggled as a 3rd party publisher and the Sonic franchise has gone through some experimental titles which only the fans seem to apprecate.

Sonic isn't really the problem here it's SEGA. SEGA of America is a poorly managed 3rd party publisher who makes pridictable and sometimes lame business decisions, they need to reinvent themselves by fixing thier marketing problems. SEGA of Japan however is recovering and reorginizing themselves as a 3rd party publisher and arcade hardware maker, thier new arcade games are awesome and I wish SEGA could really show people just what the Lindbergh is capable of it would really helpe them alot. Sonic needs face lift,let's face it.

The kid friendly attitude has got to go, a teen agnst attitude would sell better plus 4Kids must be fired immediately! so SEGA of America can see just how much they are hated and replaced with the talent of Houston,Texas based ADV films(which has became the faster growing anime distributer in the world and was voted best anime company by animenewsnetwork.com and by /Newtype magazine.)Also the "Tails" moniker should be dropped for marketing reasons not fans' reasons it's just gotten too old to cliche'd.

I believe the time is right for SEGA of Japan to step up and return to the console market now, the industry is going into decline now with the 3DO-like price tag of PS3 and Nintendo Wii which I see as just a gimmick and will probably end up as a novelty which means the Wii probably won't live very long. SEGA really needs to reinvent themselves and a console version of Lindbergh would not only give SEGA a 256-bit console but would also give them a machine where alot of Japanese arcade games could easily to converted and ported.

I hope that SEGA of Japan does have the money to build a new console (I'm waiting for TGS) sure it probably will come out later then the new ones but at least it will sell very well if it has a much cheaper price tag then PS3 it would also have good 3rd party support and SEGA would also have to come up with a clever name not something lame and stupid like "Wii"(yes I know everbody has already gotten over the name) and more scarier then "Xbox360".

sorry for getting off topic, all I'm saying is that SEGA needs to reinvent themselves, I'm sure it would probably be much easier to sell Sonic titles on a SEGA console and that Sonic Team and Probe would actaully put more effort and work into it if it was a sole SEGA console like Yuji Naka said three years ago.

Boy, you shar did make yersalf sound real smart wit dat post, haayy--ukk.

pat.. i think everyone here knows your opinion on sega and it's consoles by now, as you've posted the same point over and over in various topics, dragging them off topic at the same time. it's getting repetative.

this topic has been mainly about the sonic games, try sticking on topic for once?

YOu're making assumptions by causality. The Wii will likely sell well for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, it's cheaper, and secondly it can play normal games, as evidenced by Super Smash Brothers Brawl. It's not as powerful, no, but it's X-Box quality.

SEGA won't enter the console race, trust me on this. If they're loosing money now, think about why they stopped developing consoles to begin with.

And suddenly, I wish that this board had an "ignore user" function.

I don't. Two Reasons:
1) Would I be ignored? Nooooooooooo...
2) Also there would be a lot of "What did that prat say?" backlogged.

just ignore him anyway and continue the topic as it was before the interuption.

1 PRINT User Filter activated.
2 PRINT Running tests...
10 RUN pat-test.bat
20 IF "SEGA">10 OR "Lindbergh"=1 THEN 50
30 IF "SEGA"<10 OR "Lindbergh"=0 THEN 40
40 USER ECHO ON
50 USER ECHO OFF
60 RUN Kill.exe
70 IF "Tails"=DEROGATORY.INI THEN 80 ELSE 90
80 USER ECHO OFF
90 PRINT Failsafe Test...
100 IF USER="PAT L HEDGEHOG" THEN 110 ELSE 120
110 USER ECHO OFF
120 RUN nextpost.exe
130 GOTO 10

~Rico

**Gives Rico a medal**

Jolly good.

This reminds me of bbc basic 😀

*brings a tear to his eye* those were the days, 32K of ram and a cassette recorder

Doesn't PRINT have to have " " (10 PRINT "words" ) as well?

The main problem I can plainly see is that for every hardcore fan that gets turned away from the franchise, two new fans emerge. While its true that you can't please everybody, the majority of sonic "fans" are those who see the newest game, or show or comic, and then start to find out more about them.

While a lot people have played the older games, at the same time, a lot more haven't. And for all of us, who have perserviered(sp?) with each game and experienced the same problems; there's plenty of people who are fairly new to Sonic's style of gameplay and don't even notice those problems.

Even I myself, had trouble noticing the so-called camera problems in Sonic Heroes, until I played Shadow and saw the same problem. It was only after, that I went back and played Sonic Heroes and realized exactly where the problems were. Nowadays, it's hard not to notice them.

This also makes me think, WHO is actually testing these games when they are made? Is it the designers, programmers, staff or test groups? As John said, they really have to be play tested to near perfection. I personally would rather get a well made Sonic game every two or three years if that's what it took rather than have two or three poorly made games in the same year.

It was PC or GWBasic over here.

...

You're right. Oopsie. Hey, its been... 17 years?

On topic.

Things change, fanboys cry, new ones are born. Just like how almost two decades later I still remember the old DOS kiddie coding. 20 years from now I'll still like Tails, no matter how killed off he is.

Games are built for what I like to call "single time buyers". It'd be like that store that doesn't care if you come back because they charge so much they have plenty to get buy with untill the next sucker rolls up.

When game companies decide to sell to repeat customers, the quality will improve.

~Rico

Quote:

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When game companies decide to sell to repeat customers, the quality will improve.

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Is that why the Sonic franchise has fallen so much compared to Mario?(and that's kinda big seeing that Nintendo/w 3rd party's help loved to place him and company in board games and sports--though they were supposedly decent games anyway)

I'm not sure what you're getting at. So I'll do with the "Wat do u meen by this?" line.

~Rico

U sed:

Quote:

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When game companies decide to sell to repeat customers, the quality will improve.

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i elaburate
Even recent Mario games such as New Super Mario Bros., Paper Mario 2, and Mario Kart DS seems to be loved by fans old and new. You even have a lot of people--including the ones in the industry anticipating titles such as Super Paper Mario, Yoshi's Island 2, and Super Mario Galaxy. You don't get that kind of general excitement from even former Sonic gamers--well with the exception of Sonic Wild Fire. The majority of the Sonic fans who are excited for recent and upcoming titles are the newer fans.

The last Sonic title I was well and truly eager for was Heroes, to be honest.

I still like the looks of the new one with Silver and all, but Heroes looked like a bloody godsend until we figured out it wasn't.

And I've enjoyed a lot of the titles everyone else hates, 3D Blast and R included.

Ignore this

Re. Bunni: It is wierd that. I suppose the feeling is that the Mario spin offs work because they don't really need the Mario name to sell it. The gameplay shines through.

I have to agree the only Sonic game I have been truly rabid about was Heroes. Chaotix, Metal Sonic, Checkered board hills. Wet myself several times during that.

Its wierd that Sonic used to get Zelda levels of hype and now its a bit "oh new Sonic game". I dont know what would make me excited like I was about Heroes again (once bitten, twice shy all that). I suppose I would get excited about Sonic '06 once I read some positive previews in a magazine a month away from release that sort of thing. Because despite Shadow and Silver this still could be very good. But it wouldn't be Heroes excited.

Count me in as another person whose last Sonic game brought excitement to in the previews was Sonic Heroes.

Now I am either *shruging* or *meh-ing* at any upcoming Sonic game.

The reason I was finally convinced to purchase Sonic Rush was the good impressions from several non-die-hard Sonic fans, and that it did actually look fun from various gameplay videos.

Well, I'm glad I'm one of the few fans out there that didn't get overly-excited when Sonic Heroes was first announced. Sure it was great that old characters are returning, but I didn't like the way the game looks and the whole 'teamwork' gameplay pretty much ruined it for me, so I wasn't expected that game to be spectacular.

The last Sonic game I got really excited for was Sonic Adventure 2 and I'm pretty excited about the Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) game. I really hope Sega doesn't screw this one up, but I feel that Shadow being in the game with vehicles will give the game bad reviews again.

Gotcha Ashide. Have pity on an old man.

~Rico

I don't think the 3d games are bad in their own right. But when people compare them to older games, it just seems like a little bias to me. You've can't exactly compare the Sonic Adventure series to the original Sonic the Hedgehog series. And I don't know how people keep finding glitches. It seems like everybody does it purpose. Eh, I don't know.

But to be honest, I'm more irritated by fans who now thinks Sonic games are 'crap' because the 2D ones were 'much better'. And I put quotation marks around those words because I can't ever look at a 2D Sonic game and see it as godsend as some people made it out to be anymore. Then the fact that people are constantly bashing 3D Sonic makes me thinks their not getting the love they deserve.

Howabout when people compare the Sonic 3D games to other 3D platformers and other action games which are more polished have have a better camera system? =P

Quote:

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But to be honest, I'm more irritated by fans who now thinks Sonic games are 'crap' because the 2D ones were 'much better'. And I put quotation marks around those words because I can't ever look at a 2D Sonic game and see it as godsend as some people made it out to be anymore. Then the fact that people are constantly bashing 3D Sonic makes me thinks their not getting the love they deserve.

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One of the major problems the recent 3D Sonic games is suffering from is the faulty level design. I mean the who dang levels are suspended over a huge bottomless pit which makes speeding a punishment for this series. The levels are also fairly linear though, Sonic 2K6 may or may not fix that problem. However, the large amount of bottomless pits are not exclusive to the 3D games but, they are found in the Advance games and Rush which is quite annoying. One problem exclusive to the 3D games though is the faulty camera which is valid reason why people might prefer any of the 2D Sonic games over the 3D ones.

The only 2D Sonic games I enjoy are Sonic 1-3K, Sonic CD, and Rush--to an extent(but this is probably because that one was the first Sonic game in years that did not suck in my eyes). I give props to SA1 though, for SA team trying something different in gameplay and story method, for being the first proper 3D Sonic outing, and that the Sonic levels wasn't that linear yet compared to the later games. I haven't really enjoyed any Sonic 3D game as much as SA1 ever since.

While I agree about the bottomless pit issue (SRB2, while a fan game, has a better solution: tall walls around its levels, which I think suits the levels a lot more than bottomless pits do) the linearity can't exactly be helped. I mean, ALL platformers have linear levels, Metroid and post-SotN Castlevanias notwithstanding. The real issue here is a lack of alternate paths - undoubtedly what you meant, but still, I'd like to clear that up.

And yeah, the 3D games don't suck just because we compare them to the 2D games. They suck because they have gaping flaws that make gameplay a lot less fun than it should be, and Sonic Team never seems to fix them. Bottomless pits are one - a few never hurt, but basing the entire game around them sure does. Others include floaty controls, pointless loops that always act as mini-cutscenes rather than actual gameplay (and if you try to fight it, you almost always die), a horrendous camera that's more focused on what the developers want you to look at - that is, going forward - than what YOU want to look at, a general lack of exploration (there's not much to see when there are rarely any alternate paths, or indeed any way to stop and smell the roses), pointless gimmicks that really don't work with the gameplay (Heroes, Shadow), HORRIBLE graphics (StH2K6 fixes this, but only in the sense that, next generation, good graphics are STANDARD), really bad voice acting (which arguably took a step down when 4Kids came in)... and a lot of that's still prevalent in the upcoming games. It's not just different, it's different in a way that hurts the gameplay overall.

And that's why people complain.

Quote:

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One of the major problems the recent 3D Sonic games is suffering from is the faulty level design.

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Oh, indeed.
My problem with the 3D generation is that, when compared to games like Prince of Persia or Psychonauts, they suffer.

Another thing is that as we grow older, we become more cynical (or is that just me?). Having more hobbies now than when I did when I was 8 years old when i got into Sonic, I don't have as much time for the series as i once did. So when all these new characters come along, i don't have time to give a damn about them. I mean, Tails, Knuckles, Amy etc - they're all fine, but i give nothing but a hearty sigh when i hear about Jet and that new Silver character...

I honestly hope that the 15th anniversary game lives up to expectations because after 4 or so years of fair-crap Sonic games, we're overdue a truly brilliant game reminiscent of the original games. If it turns out to be crap, I don't know what to think. I'll still be a Sonic fan, but it will be a case of "meh great" then "i can't wait" when new games are announced.

I agree with SH whole heartedly. I have a few complaints about the constant flow of new characters. New characters aren't neccesarily bad, but Sonic Team never seems to handle them correctly. Just adding characters with flat personalities just to fill gaps of gameplay are the kind that we players generally find annoying. Silver, Blaze (to a certain extent), and Shadow in SA2 (Heroes kind of killed the love for him) were exceptions.

Look at the Chaotix. Why didn't Mighty or possibly Ray come back? No room for them in Heroes.

Why isn't Fang still around, and character some fans ACTUALLY WANT and is quite possibly, *gasp* unique? We instead got Rouge just to fill the lack of female characters in the series. Seems a bit unfair.

Shadow's been drilled so many times there's no point in going into it. He should've stay dead after SA2, simple as that.

Blaze, despite having a personality, design, and even a cool power that is individual to herself, her faults come with the game she was placed in. She played exactly the same way as Sonic with only 3 differences. Her top speed was less the Sonic's (only noticable when you play the time trial mode.), and her 2 R-botton moves were different (her upward boost went way higher, and she had a slow hover.) That's it, and I only noticed because I played Rush practically to death.

We can't make judgements on Silver since we haven't played StH06 through, but he's in Rivals, so he's a permanent chracter now.