Hell, as long as we're still going with the whore metaphore, AB, Sonic's just got an unskilled pimp.
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Eh? What makes you assume that I only think the industry revolves around the U.S. and Japan? I never said anything like that in this topic.
yes you did, your calculating the profits to those two alone. it's not a mistake to do so, but professionally it would be costly.
mega drive's sonic was more popular worldwide. it was a success.
as for FF8, it was a failure game. because of it's pre-hit title, the game sold well. if square made more games like FF8 we would have lost interest eventually.
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I'm pretty sure most Japanese companies are thinking more on how to sell your product to Japanese consumers as the first priority with the worldwide consumer base second. That's how it is usually in every country.
with companies that don't have a chance of making it outside, yes. but the rest of the world including Japan would attempt to reach the U.S market as the main priority. sonic and final fantasy games were able to reach a western interest, it's no surprise the main focus would be on the western consumer.
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as for FF8, it was a failure game. because of it's pre-hit title, the game sold well. if square made more games like FF8 we would have lost interest eventually.
Plenty, such as me, would disagree.
FFVIII has as many fans as haters.
Yet, Ice, that's exactly what we've tried to fight with Sonic. Since Sonic Adventure, fan's have been saying, "Just go back to basics! Focus on the speed and platforming!"
The people who whine about speed should stop because they're ruining the series, IMO. Go play Sonic 1. Most of it (any zone besides Star Light) is a lot slower than anything recently made. I starting posting a reply, but it got big, so I'm posting a topic.
The earlier games weren't really speed, just running and jumping. It only felt fast becuase of the linear yet creative level design that allowed and encouraged players to plow through a zone as quickly as they could. I think people want the ability to do that back.
FFVIII is ranked as the least popular of all the FF games released in the US. That being said, it doesn't mean it's a bad gameIt only means most players of FF games like others in the series much better. I personally loved FFVIII, but I loved IX, the PS1 Tactics, and the original FF more. See?
I think it's that feeling that many Sonic fans have. Some enjoyed the more recent games, but loved the originals. Here's looking to the future...
I've posted a reply to your reply in your newly created topic, Veckums.
That said, I included the word 'platforming' for a reason. Technically, I haven't heard many fans asking for traps and 'physics puzzles' like they had in the old Sonic games (when I say physics puzzles, S3's Ice Cap lifts that must be sped into come to mind). I added that because I do agree, speed isn't the only factor. Sonic games DO NOT need to move as fast as they do, especially not the 2D ones (the later Advance games were just sickening in that regard). However, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think the old games relied a lot on speed... Not Sonic 1 nearly so much as 2, but starting with 2 you really started to get the feeling that no other game could move as fast as Sonic games did.
It's part of the novelty.
-Jake
Mel Rose
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yes you did, your calculating the profits to those two alone. it's not a mistake to do so, but professionally it would be costly.
mega drive's sonic was more popular worldwide. it was a success.
Ah, I looked over my previous posts and I see how you can believe I think that the U.S. and Japan markets are the only ones that are relevant, but I don't believe this is true. I did mention that the Sega Genesis/Sonic was more popular in the Western markets than in Japan overall and that in Europe I would not be surprised that he is more popular there than in the US.
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as for FF8, it was a failure game. because of it's pre-hit title, the game sold well. if square made more games like FF8 we would have lost interest eventually.
I doubt that and for the very reason Xag mentioned. And if FF8 was the first FF game that had CGI FMV, generated so much hype, and appeared on the PS1 instead of FF7, I will guarentee you that that game would have been the best selling FF of all time just like FF7 is now.
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with companies that don't have a chance of making it outside, yes. but the rest of the world including Japan would attempt to reach the U.S market as the main priority. sonic and final fantasy games were able to reach a western interest, it's no surprise the main focus would be on the western consumer.
Then can you explain why a big and well-known company like Namco seem to always skimp on releasing or promoting one of their more popular series, "Tales of..." in the U.S. market, even though it has a chance to become a really big franchise in the West? I mean Symphonia outsold all of the Tales games that had been released on Sony consoles put together. So there is a fanbase for the series here--it is just on the GCN.
However in Japan, Symphonia wasn't as successful as previous Tales games on the PS1/PS2 because the GCN is very unpopular. Thus they ported the game on the PS2 and it outsold the GCN version. So all future console Tales games have been kept on the PS2 and the hasn't been any plans from Namco to port and of its Tales games to the GCN for the Western audience--including the upcoming Tales of Abyss which looks good but will most likely bomb here. =(
And Namco isn't the only one who think this way. There are plenty of big companies from around the world whose first priorty is to make games that the consumers from the same country there main company is located because that is what they are most familar with.
Mimi:
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FFVIII is ranked as the least popular of all the FF games released in the US.
I don't 'bout that. FFII has to be even less popular as it is not as known in comparision that battle system is more broken than FFVIII ever was.
To Ashide: You're right. FFII, however, has barely been played (the real one, not the the FFII released here. In Japan it's V, I think.) on our side of the world in comparison to other games in the series. Or, at least that's the opinion I get from players I've met across forums. I think what I should've said was few players of FF like VIII more than others, making it appear greatly disliked, especially when compared to the extemely popular VII, which I didn't like (a rare breed of FF fan). But this is all off topic.
To Veckums; It's true that Sonic isn't perfect when it's just speed, speed, and more speed, as the next-gen games look to be. I think Kaulimus has got it when he mentions the great platforming the earlier games had that was somehow forgotten about.
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And if FF8 was the first FF game that had CGI FMV, generated so much hype, and appeared on the PS1 instead of FF7, I will guarentee you that that game would have been the best selling FF of all time just like FF7 is now.
FF8 would still be criticized for it's storyline and gameplay. and if it was the CG test run game for square, FF7 would have been accompanied with better CG and character designing. it would have been a bigger hit than now and FF8 would still be behind. However we're straying off topic here and losing the main point 
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Then can you explain why a big and well-known company like Namco seem to always skimp on releasing or promoting one of their more popular series, "Tales of..." in the U.S. market
Japan was not very noticeable in the west till recently. also, American companies are very expensive. to get a partnership in the west is very difficult, and Japanese companies don't make as much income as western companies do. It would be easier if the partnership came from the west to Japan, perhaps that's what happened to some companies. I'm not fully aware of Namco's business, but if it is having financial problems, I suppose it'll sell locally to cover costs.
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FF8 would still be criticized for it's storyline and gameplay. and if it was the CG test run game for square, FF7 would have been accompanied with better CG and character designing. it would have been a bigger hit than now and FF8 would still be behind. However we're straying off topic here and losing the main point
No it wouldn't because FF7 would have still been on the SNES had FF8 been the first PS1 FF game. 
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Japan was not very noticeable in the west till recently.
Eh? Japan had a more prominant presence in the video game console market in the 8-bit to 32-bit era than this generation.
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to get a partnership in the west is very difficult, and Japanese companies don't make as much income as western companies do.
Is that why Sony and Nintendo went third-party?
Also what did anything you said prove that many times Japan or any other country does not think of their local audience first before other markets?
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I'm not fully aware of Namco's business, but if it is having financial problems, I suppose it'll sell locally to cover costs.
Financial problems? What? The Tales series is IIRC among the top three most successful RPG series in Japan; Namco is just not that interested in marketing the series much outside the country. We only got Tales of Symphonia because Nintendo funded the localization.
I heard about that statement also. I heard that Sega wanted to make a mascot character that would first appeal to Americans in hopes that the Japanese would too embraced the character if it was popular in America.
I heard that, too. I thought that that was the reason by both Sonic and the wolf who went into the final shortlist with him had very prominent red, white and blue.
Wasn't the wolf also wearing an American flag shirt?
Could this idea of appeal also bring in Tails design? His creater (who was a winner of a contest held by Sega) was supposedly inspired by the Kitsune, a legendary many-tailed fox. If Tails was chosen becuase of that, it would make him much more Japanese. Westerners see a cute little fox that was unfortunately born with an extra tail. Japanese may see something much more mythical.
I find it ironic that sega created a Wolf with the Red,White & Blue for a mascot only to be scrapped. Thean that Wolf form tail's adv. appered to be scrapped . THEAN Fang appered as a Wolf/Weseal hybrid only to be SCRAPPED ANGIN. Funny how things go. (Runs off to start topic)
Uh, Nack/Fang's never been "scrapped". He's just unused. To be "scrapped" would imply he never had the limelight at any point - which he has.
For all intents and purposes, Nack/Fang is pretty much in the scrap heap. He's made one, maybe two, game appearances, and hasn't been seen since. While they may not have "scrapped" the character, he's definitely in the scrap heap.
Of course, we all thought the Chaotix were scrapped after one game, but then they made a reappearance...well, some of them did...in Sonic Heroes, and another appearance in Shadow the Hedgehog. So there might be hope for Nack yet.
But it's doubtful. Seems Sega always just wants to make new charas instead of reusing old ones.
Going back to Mario, how many games have actually introduced a new Mario main character? In the beginning, there was Mario, Luigi, the Toads, the Princess, and Bowser. Mario 2 introduced Wart (who hasn't been seen since.) Mario 3 had the Koopa Kids, who made one more appearance in Super Mario World then haven't really been seen since, other than in spin-off games.
Super Mario World introduced the Yoshis, who are still around to this day. Super Mario World 2 introed the Mario Brother's Younger Selves, who still make appearances in spin-off games, and were even a major part of Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time.
Super Mario Land had Tatanga and Daisy. Daisy still makes appearances from time to time, but Tatanga has fallen off the map, only to be replaced by a much better Villian/Rival, Wario. And we all know how far Wario's gotten. He has several game series of his own. (Wario Land, Wario World, WarioWare Inc.)
Then we move on to the N64, which went back to the basics. Mario, the Princess, and Bowser. I don't think there were any other serious Mario Action games for the N64 (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Although Mario Tennis introduced Waluigi, who has yet to play a major role in a non spinoff game.
Moving on the Gamecube, Luigi finally gets his own game that isn't just a spinoff, Luigi's Mansion, which introduced Professor E. Gadd, who has made several appearances, at least in name, since. Then we go to Super Mario Sunshine, which introduced one of the biggest new mains to date: Bowser Junior. Petey Pirhana (sp?) was also introduced in that game, and he's made several appearances since.
I'm guessing my main point is, the Mario Series has introduced new characters from time to time, but they also are willing to go back and re-use them, rather than relegate a bunch of characters to one-shot roles, like the Sonic Franchise did.
Fang, out of all the forgotton ones, have the highist possibly to reapper due to appering in more games. Sad, but true.
Why does Fang have the highest possibility to reappear? As for how Sega tends to itnroduce characters and toss them by the side (at least for the Sonic series) is a bit annoying. Unlike Nintendo's Mario series, this means the characters are never really fleshed our, and are just kinda forgotten. BTW I geth te feeling this thread is morphing into into the thread about the "forgotten characters" due to a possibly misplaced post.
As for the original topic:
I heard about that statement also. I heard that Sega wanted to make a mascot character that would first appeal to Americans in hopes that the Japanese would too embraced the character if it was popular in America.
I heard that, too. I thought that that was the reason by both Sonic and the wolf who went into the final shortlist with him had very prominent red, white and blue.
I've heard this as well. Which, at the time, probably didn't seem like a bad idea. And it really wasn't. Also:
Could this idea of appeal also bring in Tails design? His creater (who was a winner of a contest held by Sega) was supposedly inspired by the Kitsune, a legendary many-tailed fox. If Tails was chosen becuase of that, it would make him much more Japanese. Westerners see a cute little fox that was unfortunately born with an extra tail. Japanese may see something much more mythical.
Hmm thats an interesting idea I never thought of... It's very possible.
Fang appered in more games thean Ray, Mighty, Bean, Bark and even the Chaotix. so out of all the scrapped people I mentioned, he have the highist possabilitly to apper once more - Just because he appered more often thean the other forgotton ones. Cased Closed. Contuine on the original topic please.
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Then we go to Super Mario Sunshine, which introduced one of the biggest new mains to date: Bowser Junior. Petey Pirhana (sp?) was also introduced in that game, and he's made several appearances since.
Bowser Junior was introduced in Yoshi Story wasn't he? And was in Mario Party 3 too I think.
Bowser Junior was introduced in Yoshi Story wasn't he?
That was Baby Bowser. As in regular Bowser, but when he was a kid. Bowser Jr. is his son and was named for his resemblance to his father, which is something none of the other Koopa Kids really have.
Antipode
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Actually, that's what I heard, too, V2. I'm currently reading an anthropological study of Japanese culture (cuz I'mma nerd) and their whole society is built around working together, contributing to a group, and striving for the betterment of the whole. "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few." They'll even go so far as to shun someone for acting "improper" or "selfish" - even at a very young age, this is taught and encouraged.
I agreed with you but I think you missed something:
Personally I viewed Sonic as an immature, neglected person. These are part of the reasons why Sonic isn't popular in Japan.
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-Love is Eternity
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As long as you're bumping up something so old, care to go into more detail?
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Personally I viewed Sonic as an immature, neglected person. These are part of the reasons why Sonic isn't popular in Japan.
Hey this Sonic fellow sounds like that Naruto character, or that Inuyasha chap.
Welcome, kucheeky.
Naruto and Inuyasha are characters who have such a personality, but it's played for laughs (at least occasionally). Characters around irreverent heroes react negatively to their brashness in a lot of Japanese manga I've read, and their personalities are used to set up jokes. Sonic's qualities are never played for humor except in Sonic Battle.
An irreverent, immature, rebellious hero is endearing for those qualities in America, but perhaps in Japan those are more like the character flaws that give them depth or humor?
BTW, I think kucheeky may be Japanese and would probably have significant insight into this and other SEGA topics, so I hope they come back to reply.
That's a pretty steep guess Vec. Even if for the slightest reason he says he is from Japan it could be someone pretending that they are from Japan. I heard that has happened before.
I'm thinking that the RPG-inspired story for Sonic 2006 was Sonic Team's last-gasp effort to win back the Japanese. But if they had any sense left in them, they would just give up on that long-gone fanbase, and focus instead on holding on to their increasingly-dissatisfied western fanbase. Of course it's Sonic Team we're talking about here, there's no reason to think they still have any sense left in them. From what I've read recently, it seems that they don't even care about their fans outside of Japan. It's a shame...they may be the only organization on the planet more delusional and out of touch with reality than the Bush Administration.
Boss Velotix
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Case point 1: Mario
In the West, Mario's superior jumping abilities and awesome gameplay make him the king, and popular. Westerners couldn't give a rat's ass about the plot so long as it doesn't get in the way. Japanese gamers sympathise with Mario's plight; the poor bloke busts his ass trying to save Princess Peach, only to be told "she's in another castle". Mario has the patience of a saint, and that makes him a sympathetic character. International popularity ahoy.Case point 2: Sonic
The oldest Sonic games barely had any time for the plot at all, and chose instead to simply further the plot along by progressing through the game. For Westerners that's all that matters and the US and Europe lapped it up. In Japan, however, that makes Sonic completely uninteresting. Why are we kicking Eggman's ass? Why should I care? Without an answer, they switched off. Popularity in Japan is diminished.
I think you're right, Boss Velotix. Not only that, but in the games he has also meaningful stories that was inspired by his character. That's why unless SEGA must follow the "tough act to follow", that is called Nintendo which has a continuously successful Mario Games popularity Sonic's popularity will forever be gone in Japan. I bet there is still hope....but I doubt that Sonic 2006 might have become a failure in Japan....
You can correct me if I'm wrong and'll fix it. I know that I'm not from Japan but I knew some about this country, culture and Japanese animations. I'm a full-pledged otaku.... 🙂
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-Love is Eternity
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I think I already countered Velotix point already ages ago that Sonic kicks the Doctor's rear because Eggman is exploiting nature/the world for his own means. I mean the "saving the world" plot is common to most Japanese action media and "nature is good" is a common theme in Hayao Miyazaki's movies which are extremely popular in Japan.
I still stand by the fact Sonic isn't that popular there is because the Mega Drive wasn't popular there.
Yeah...it doesn't really help that Sega's most popular console over there was the Saturn, and the reasons it succeeded had absolutly nothing to do with Sonic, and absolutely everything to do with Virtua Fighter. VF5 may even be the PS3's killer-app over there...
I thought this topic looked familiar. My previous post is about nine months old at this point so it's best to refresh my statements and of course update them taking into account more recent developments:
Gradually, Western and Japanese tastes in many areas are converging as the cultures gain exposure to each other, so the barriers between the cultures are collapsing.
That said, generally the Japanese have a latent xenophobia towards foreign cultures that they're having a hard time shaking, though for the most part it's on its way out of mainstream society there. The reverse is also true to an extent; Japanese methodologies are not generally well-received outside of the country either, though in recent years this attitude has diminished significantly.
I once attended a lecture focussed on foreign business cultures (don't ask) and it was highlighted that it is very difficult for a foreign product to establish a market in Japan - look at the Xbox and Xbox 360, for example. As has been stated repeatedly, Sonic was designed with the intent of selling well in America (though he actually ended up selling best in Europe); he was designed to appeal to foreign markets at the expense of his own, and has paid the price ever since. The Japanese are not fond of being sold out; the Sony-Nintendo fiasco that birthed the PlayStation springs to mind there.
It's an issue common to most societies worldwide; even if a cultural shift begins, there will always be elements of that society dragged kicking and screaming through it. Japan as a country isolated itself from the world for a long, long time and has only recently reconsidered its ethnocentric attitudes. There will be generations of Japanese citizens who will remember these outmoded policies for a long time to come; morbid as it seems, until the generations who remember this isolationism are dead and buried, Western products in general will continue to have a hard time making headway in Japan.
Old habits die hard, as the saying goes.
My previous comments on this matter remain valid also, as they're somewhat more specific. Ashide has correctly pointed out that the Sonic series has given Sonic a motivation from the very beginning, but there's an issue with that: this exposition was only ever mentioned in the game's manual in all territories. Mario smacks it in your face and keeps it there; you can't not be aware of the game's plot.
People who played the Mega Drive Sonics on the other hand were (and still are) unaware of the plot; in fact I was not consciously aware of it for a long time after playing the games, even though I read the manuals. Western reviews and criticisms of the series in recent years also highlight this fact: "Sonic is only about speed"; "Sonic was better without a plot"; "Too many characters".
I'm reminded of the Star Wars trainwreck here, actually: what George Lucas considered the saga to be and what he considered the most important factors of it are far, far removed from the elements most commonly enjoyed by the fans; despite the reverence the Star Wars series harbours, many of its well-liked elements are also the most casual; Darth Vader, lightsaber duels, Han-X-Leia, Boba Fett, the Death Star, etc. For most people, this is Star Wars, hence people hate the new trilogy which barely touches on any of these (bar lightsaber duels), and they hate it when the classics are "messed with" even though the remastered versions are how Lucas always wanted it to be. Ask Lucas how important these revered elements are and he'll surely say they're just the tip of the Star Wars iceberg. That stark divide in focus seems very familiar...
There is one final element to the puzzle. SONIC FANS CAN'T AGREE ON A DAMN THING AND IT DRIVES ME NUTS! No wonder that whenever the fans are listened to there are invariably complaints and the quality of the work tanks - the creative team behind the game don't believe in the project (not to mention the projects are fundamentally flawed). Equally, the reverse is true; when the creators do their own thing, they focus on elements of the franchise that are either ignored or disliked by (most of) the fanbase and the games get slammed because they're "crap Sonic games" and are "not Sonic". Severe technical flaws aside, the games are viewed with heavily biassed perspectives in the first places on all sides - the series cannot attempt to further innovate without alienating fans (for Sonic Adventure, the old-skool fans and a portion of the game journalists; for Sonic Heroes, a large volume of Sonic Adventure fans and anyone who can't stand crappy graphics/physics programming - most of the remaining game journalists; Sonic The Hedgehog (2006), anyone revolted by the idea of Sonic kissing human girls - the people who can't stand crap gameplay are already gone :P; Sonic and the Secret Rings, anyone who actually liked the free-roaming nature of the previous 3D titles and/or can't live without constant CGI cutscenes).
The point? Sonic's losing popularity worldwide because the creative team and the consumers no longer agree on what makes Sonic, Sonic. Sonic was never popular in Japan anyway because the character's sensibilities clash with Japanese sensibilities about interesting characters and gameplay. Anyone could have told you that, but you may not have thought thoroughly about exactly why before.
Sonic will never gain popularity until it's grown unafraid of alienating fans and appeals once again to the mainstream audience - sales indicate this is not what is happening. It's safe to say that the definition of "mainstream gaming" is changing, however, and perhaps the time is right for the series to rid itself of its roots completely; a decade too late, but there's no time like the present.
I'd rather the series return to its roots too, but let's face it: no-one can agree on what the hell Sonic's roots are.
EDIT: Corrected a couple of grammatical errors. I really shouldn't write long, pseudo-profound posts in the wee hours of the morning. 😛
I'm inclined to agree with Velotix.
I'd love to see a return to the days of S3&K, but if a complete rebirth is what it takes to make Sonic great again, then bring it on.
Erinaceus:
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VF5 may even be the PS3's killer-app over there...
VF5 for the PS3 bombed in Japan. Probably due to the high price of the PS3, the constant availability of the arcade game, the popularity of the Wii there, or all of the above.
Boss V.:
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I once attended a lecture focussed on foreign business cultures (don't ask) and it was highlighted that it is very difficult for a foreign product to establish a market in Japan - look at the Xbox and Xbox 360, for example.
???
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As has been stated repeatedly, Sonic was designed with the intent of selling well in America (though he actually ended up selling best in Europe); he was designed to appeal to foreign markets at the expense of his own, and has paid the price ever since.
Actually, from what I read, the reason why they wanted to expose Sonic in America before Japan in the first place is to make it more appealing to the Japanese. Sega thought if they successfully market Sonic in the West, the Japanese audience will think Sonic is cool, and the Mega Drive would be a must have console. Of course, that blew up in their face.
Still Sonic did sell more games in the MD era in Japan than today.
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My previous comments on this matter remain valid also, as they're somewhat more specific. Ashide has correctly pointed out that the Sonic series has given Sonic a motivation from the very beginning, but there's an issue with that: this exposition was only ever mentioned in the game's manual in all territories. Mario smacks it in your face and keeps it there; you can't not be aware of the game's plot.
I don't get how is Sonic's basic plot--even without the manual is vague. "You are a hedgehog. Crazy scientist traps other animals in robots. Destroy them and defeat the mad scientist." How is that hard to follow?
I like the theory of Sonic's attitude not jiving well with Japanese culture. I mean Sonic is all about getting what HE wants. Which is America all the way. HOORAY FOR SELFISHNESS.
Not saying that Sonic is Selfish. Americans are...wait a sec. But Sonic is SURROUNDED by his ARMY of friends. So technically he isn't alone.
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(image barrage)
If I had said "no foreign products sell in Japan" you'd be right to call me on it like that. But I said "very difficult", not "impossible". You will notice that each of these products has a tremendous marketing budget to back it up. Find me a foreign product with widespread popularity without phenomenal truckloads of money being thrown at it to get it there and you'll have caught me out. Until then: FISSION MAILED.
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Actually, from what I read, the reason why they wanted to expose Sonic in America before Japan in the first place is to make it more appealing to the Japanese. Sega thought if they successfully market Sonic in the West, the Japanese audience will think Sonic is cool, and the Mega Drive would be a must have console. Of course, that blew up in their face.
Why did you bring this up to counter my point when it proves it? 😛
Thanks for the clarification, but this just reinforces my point that a product is difficult to sell in Japan if it was initially made to sell in a foreign market, and Sega learnt that the hard way.
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I don't get how is Sonic's basic plot--even without the manual is vague. "You are a hedgehog. Crazy scientist traps other animals in robots. Destroy them and defeat the mad scientist." How is that hard to follow?
It isn't, but that's not my point. My point is that most people didn't notice it in the first place; and if they did, they never read into it as deeply as most of the hardcore fans now do.
That basic plot gives Sonic no personality at all, though in the manual it fleshes out the basic plotline significantly to the point that it's much closer to the modern games (closer, but not there before you go into too much detail on that point). The point is that the basic plot is perfectly understandable, but extremely basic and vague at the same time. Most people would claim that the original Sonic games didn't really have a plot at all - it isn't true, but most people don't bother reading the manuals.
Because we're dealing with the issue of mainstream popularity, we're forced not to deal with the issue assuming people have all the information available to them; in Sonic's case most people played the Sonic games and got from them the distinct impression that the games are all about speed (which is total bollocks, but Vec has explained this in great detail elsewhere so I won't repeat it here) and that the plot is so basic it's not required to pay any attention to it to enjoy the game; again, most Japanese are used to their entertainment being character-focussed, and Sonic was hardly character-focussed. He became character-focussed by S3&K but most people didn't notice. Sonic Adventure to most people appeared to come out of nowhere - it didn't and there's plenty of evidence to support that, but this evidence went over most people's heads.
The point is that Sonic has a plot but until 1999 never focussed on it directly. Mario, however, gave across as detailed a plot as it actually had and has done that ever since; think of all the complaints about Super Mario Sunshine, for example, because "Mario doesn't need/shouldn't have a plot" even though he's had a backstory from day one. It's a ludicrous argument, but it's the same reason Sonic has a fractured fanbase; people are getting different impressions of what "Sonic" is and none of them are entirely accurate. The spinoff merchandise doesn't help matters either; the comics are a particularly damning example of this, serving only to muddy the image of "Sonic", whether you believe on their own merits the comics are quality products or not.
My impression of Sonic may indeed be particularly warped because the first Sonic game I played properly was Sonic 3D on the Saturn, then Sonic Jam, and finally Sonic CD on PC. To this day my first impressions of Sonic (excluding the times I played Sonic 1 and 3 round friend's houses briefly) have stuck with me, and I have difficulty accepting that Sonic 3D is the black sheep of the Sonic games. I still enjoy that game to this day even though by all rights it sucks. I also read Fleetway Sonic regularly from issue 121 until it went perma-reprint (185+) and watched both the Saturday morning cartoons during their original UK runs. My impression of Sonic is, and always will be, a far cry from his original intent, and the same is true for most people.
The people complaining the loudest about the modern gameplay are the people who only ever played the games.
To summarise: you're making your points under the assumption that most people actually paid attention to Sonic's plot in the Mega Drive days. We're not talking about whether the plot existed; we're talking about whether people gave a rat's ass about the plot, and they didn't. In the US and Europe this matters not one bit; in Japan that killed the series outright.
Ask most people what the plot of the original Mega Drive games was and they won't have a damn clue. Ask about Mario and you'll have much more luck, though some people won't have a clue about that either.
Food for thought: a common criticism of Sonic 2006 is that it's "trying to be Final Fantasy". Whether that's true or not, it says something about the games industry in general; the first game in a series has a lot of leeway in setting the rules of the saga, but beyond that every other game that bears that series' name is bound by the rules of that series.
It's as though people are allergic to chang--- OH WAIT!
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If I had said "no foreign products sell in Japan" you'd be right to call me on it like that. But I said "very difficult", not "impossible". You will notice that each of these products has a tremendous marketing budget to back it up. Find me a foreign product with widespread popularity without phenomenal truckloads of money being thrown at it to get it there and you'll have caught me out. Until then: FISSION MAILED.
I'm still trying to think of a western product that hasn't been penetrated in Japan, but so far I can't think of any. TVs-nope, Conmputers--nope, Jeans-nuh uh, Rock and Roll--nada.
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Thanks for the clarification, but this just reinforces my point that a product is difficult to sell in Japan if it was initially made to sell in a foreign market, and Sega learnt that the hard way.
I clarified your statement about Sega intended to appeal to North Americans before the Japanese which isn't neccesarily true. I remember Sonic was used as an advertisement for Dreams Come True in Japan, half a year before his proper debut in the summer of '91.
They probably marketed the character this way because during that time everything American seemed to be the "in-thing" with the Japanese youth. Actually, American trends seem to still be hip with the youth in Japan. But yeah, they screwed up.
Though I have a feeling had Sonic been on the SNES, he probably would have been waaaaay more popular in Japan than he was on the Mega Drive.
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To summarise: you're making your points under the assumption that most people actually paid attention to Sonic's plot in the Mega Drive days. We're not talking about whether the plot existed; we're talking about whether people gave a rat's ass about the plot, and they didn't. In the US and Europe this matters not one bit; in Japan that killed the series outright.
My original point was that Mario's and Sonic's plot was equally simplistic with familar motifs that wouldn't alienate anyone from North America, Euroland, Japan, etc. in response to your original point of Mario basic premise being familar to everyone. Why exactly would not care about Sonic's basic premise when the Japanese had stories about nature/anthromorphised animal vs. the folly of humanity for centuries?
And about your new statement about how any kind of good plot matters in Japan, then can you explain the popularity of Pac-Man?
Before I continue, I'd just like to point out that I'm not trying to prove you wrong here - I'm genuinely trying to get to the bottom of this matter because the more I think about it the more it bugs me, because it doesn't make any sense at all. Having someone counter my points effectively is a great help.
That could of course be the root of the problem though; the reasons for Sonic's unpopularity are irrational.
Anyway:
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I'm still trying to think of a western product that hasn't been penetrated in Japan, but so far I can't think of any. TVs-nope, Conmputers--nope, Jeans-nuh uh, Rock and Roll--nada.
Hm. True that, but something's nagging me about those: they're groups of products. Up until now we've been discussing individual items. I imagine a large volume of similar items could prompt a cultural shift anywhere (and thus market penetration), but one item alone would have much greater difficulty.
Thus - I appreciate it's a pedantic reason, but I think the answer to this conundrum lies in pedantic details - we now need examples of individual products that have achieved market penetration and more importantly why they have done so.
This requires research on my part, methinks.
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I clarified your statement about Sega intended to appeal to North Americans before the Japanese which isn't neccesarily true. I remember Sonic was used as an advertisement for Dreams Come True in Japan, half a year before his proper debut in the summer of '91.
I remember this from Sonic Jam, actually. I'm surprised I forgot about it. The question then is: why did this marketing campaign not work?
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Though I have a feeling had Sonic been on the SNES, he probably would have been waaaaay more popular in Japan than he was on the Mega Drive.
Please clarify: I am admittedly sketchy on the details of this matter. I imagine the reason is similar to why the Tales series sells better internationally on the GameCube than the PS2 though the reverse is true in Japan -- in fact, why this is the case may also be of relevance.
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Why exactly would [Japanese gamers] not care about Sonic's basic premise when the Japanese had stories about nature/anthromorphised animal vs. the folly of humanity for centuries?
This I do not know, but I have a hunch; if such stories have existed for a long time, they may have developed unwritten rules about the structure such stories must use - Sonic may have defied these traditions too brashly making it seem too alien to Japanese culture. I remember reading about a similar, yet equally illogical, issue with Western music in the 20th Century; people began to deviate from the long-established structure of the frequencies used to compose music. People could no longer detect the familiar notes and musical phrases and therefore could no longer relate to the material, making it unpopular.
In other words, popularity is assured by the artist's worst nightmare: making something deliberately derivative of something else. If a creation stands out too far from the crowd it becomes isolated and only attracts popularity slowly.
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And about your new statement about how any kind of good plot matters in Japan, then can you explain the popularity of Pac-Man?
...I've used the word "plot" a bit recklessly. The key element was that the plots were character-driven, i.e. it was the characters that made plots popular. This is quickly becoming an international trait too, but I digress.
As for Pac-Man, he's so incredibly basic that calling him a character at all is probably inaccurate; he's a link between the game and the player and that's it.
Kind of like good old Link himself.
I heard VF5 didn't bomb in Japan...I know the PS3 hasn't really found it's legs in any nation yet, but I heard the game moved 50,000 copies in it's first week of release. It's not as much as it could be, but 50,000 is still pretty good.
And to me, "Sonic's roots" can be defined as any Sonic game that strikes the right balance of speed, platforming, level exploration, combat, item/ring collection, and story.
50,000 units for the first week is poor for the VF franchise. VF usually move around 200,000 during it's first week and people were expecting that VF5 would move a significant amount of PS3 sales such as 60,000-80,000 units when it did less than half of that.
And I'll respond to Boss V.'s response at a later time.
HAHAHAHAHAHA! @ SH Late night laughs...how refreshing. Sorry I have nothing relevant to add to this discussion...I must admit it seems very interesting none the least. =P
Like I said, 50,000 isn't humungous, but still pretty decent when considering the fact that the arcade version is more accessable, and the fact that the PS3 has still yet to impress the Japanese the way the Wii has.
Clearly this is a sign that Sega is re-entering the market with a 256-bit Lindbergh-based console.
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Like I said, 50,000 isn't humungous, but still pretty decent when considering the fact that the arcade version is more accessable, and the fact that the PS3 has still yet to impress the Japanese the way the Wii has.
But other VF games were also accessable in the arcades in the time and VF5 has dropped off the top 30 charts a few weeks ago do to the lack of legs.
It would be the equivilant of a major console FF game first week moving 350,000 units when it usually moves 1.5 million.
Fighters in general have lost a bit of 'oomph' in the Japanese market in recent years. They aren't quite as mainstream anymore.
edit: stretched table is streeeeetched.
Ohh...I didn't know VF5 virtually dropped off the face of the planet after week one...I only knew of the stats Sega fed the media from week one, and the numbers were pretty much what Sega had expected during the week.
Still, VF5 is probably selling better over there than Sonic 2006.
My Corrections:
1. Mario's saint-like character is something Sonic doesn't have so why the latter cannot be popular in Japan. Even the titular character Naruto cannot be more popular than Deidara and Sasuke among the "Shonen Jump" readers recently unless he should become fully-matured, capable, and intelligent and really proved to anyone that he is worthy of becoming a Hokage.
2. Sonic doesn't even have a personality unlike Mario's so the former cannot be popular in Japan. Even Naruto and Inuyasha have personalities and dreams. For example:
a. Naruto: "I'm working hard to become a Hokage someday."
So, there you go. Well, I need to research more.
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-Love is Eternity
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2. Sonic doesn't even have a personality unlike Mario's so the former cannot be popular in Japan.
Mario has a personality? Huh...
I had no idea...
That depends: is eating a personality? It's the defining trait of Mario, Kirby, PacMan, Yoshi, BurgerTime... no wonder the 'fat gamer' is such a stereotype.
I don't know if it has been stated before, but wasn't Sonic designed with an American/Western audience in mind?
Yes, but in hopes that after catching on in America, people from Japan would think "Ooooh, cool american stuffs!" and it would become popular there, too.
