Sounds good, but I don't like the idea of Shadow using weapons.

*random list*

Speed:
Shadow A
Metal B
Sonic C

Accel:
Metal A
Sonic B
Shadow C

Grip:
Sonic A
Shadow B
Metal C

Using Metal's unused form in Heroes would be awesome even if just for bosses. Great idea. It's such a shame that he transformed into that ugly thing for the battle. Am I the only one who loves bosses that're the same size as the character you're using?

Score systems:

Sonic - Mad Skillz
Shadow: Destruction caused?
Metal: Efficiency?

I liked the scoring system in SA2. Alot. I want it baaack. Same goes with A ranks for emblems.

I thought I had more to say but I guess I don't.

I like the idea VCP offered but I disagree with HSW listing. I still prefer that Sonic be the fastest thing alive and Metal Sonic to be a close second...what if you also had a sidekick tagging along like Sonic/Tails, Shadow/Rogue and Metal Sonic/Tails Doll/Metal Tails.

I always enjoyed having Tails tag along with Sonic in the games...

Sonic Battle states that Shadow's air shoes allow him to move faster than Sonic. If we want them to differentiate then that's good enough for me.

I only have a problem if like Amy or Cream start becoming as fast as Sonic...well Shadow too but since he is the Ultimate Lifeform (Sarcasm off), I guess he could get away with it or just give Shadow regular shoes and see how he does against Sonic...

I don't like the idea of making Shadow faster than Sonic, this is Sonic's game and speed is Sonic's greatest skill, better to not make him look like a chump.

This brings me to another idea, perhaps Sonic should control a bit tighter than Shadow and Metal Sonic? Shadow could have looser controls because of his skating. Metal Sonic would be somewhere inbetween.

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what if you also had a sidekick tagging along like Sonic/Tails, Shadow/Rogue and Metal Sonic/Tails Doll/Metal Tails.

I always enjoyed having Tails tag along with Sonic in the games...

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I think that would defeat the point and needlessly complicate matters. Tails following Sonic in Sonic Adventure was a completely ineffective gameplay element. For the idea to work as anything other than a hidden cute homage to Sonic 2 and 3 we'd be entering Chaotix/Sonic Heroes/Sonic Advance 3 territory, which could make for a good game, but is entirely contrary to the idea I proposed in this thread.

I don't like the idea of making Shadow faster than Sonic, this is Sonic's game and speed is Sonic's greatest skill, better to not make him look like a chump.

I guess so...

This brings me to another idea, perhaps Sonic should control a bit tighter than Shadow and Metal Sonic? Shadow could have looser controls because of his skating. Metal Sonic would be somewhere inbetween.

That's what I meant by grip.

I like this idea. Its....neat.

It's a good premise for finally seeing Sonic face his rivals again, and also for seeing the reaction of one rival to the other. A long three way race off (ala Stardust Speedway, but 3d) between them is a thought that makes me happy.

Now, as for the speeds of the three, here are my thoughts.

Shadow is the fastest top speed normally (as stated in battle, like HSW said) due to his boots, but perhaps he would accept a challange to race without them earlier on (difficulty curve dont'cha know, I'm talking not playing as him here, as him, that would come later ^^ And maybe he would get on that bike later in the game if you got him really annoyed (cue drive by pic) But yeah, no grip, so take him on the insides of bends, and he prolly can't be to quick to jump not touching the floor and all. Also, what of terrain hazards? Playing as him you would prolly have to avoid anything flamable (jet boots on! -boooom-) Playing against him in a fight, I can see him using the jets on ice covered lakes or something...

Sonic next! Basic middle man good hog, hit those tvs for extra speed VRROOOOM! Or for shields, sodas, what have you.

Metal, going by CD, I would say is the slowest, but with the possibility of extreme speed boosts, outspripping the other two.

Check out Sonic R and SA2B, Metal Sonic is actually the fastest of the three (or at least equally as fast but with faster acceleration).

Again though, I feel that Sonic should be at least as fast as Shadow. He was as fast as him in SA2 and SH. And as I said, you can't have Sonic looking like a chump in his own game. For those bothered with the little tidbit from Sonic Battle, well, I think it would be perfectly in character for Sonic to have trained to match the speed of Shadow's Air Shoes inbetween games.

It's probably best to just go with the way SA2B did it, but differentiating the grip as HSW suggested. Just as long as it isn't a struggle to play as any of the characters, it should be handled in a way so that some players would like the the looser controlling Shadow and Metal Sonic whereas others would prefer the tighter controlling Sonic.

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With the good amount of promotion that's gone into these two characters would it be a good idea if the next Sonic game only featured Sonic, Shadow and Metal Sonic as playable characters?

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Wow, I mean, tyes amazing.
THAT IS amazing, it's multi character BUT wouldnt mean diversifying the levels.
Each one could have their own plot, which would intertwine and invovle different characters and...

shame it'll never happen.

(cue drive by pic)

DRIVE-BY
That said and done...I actually still think the scores I listed would be better than Sonic and Shadow being of equal speed. I made it so they each have an A, B, and a C to try and keep them equal, you know?

If you really hate the idea that much then it could be a pretty small speed difference.

Edit: Moo @ close posting times

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BUT wouldnt mean diversifying the levels.

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There'd still be plenty of room for character specific routes in the levels, but they'd still play as high speed platform games like the Sonic stages of SA and the Sonic and Shadow stages of SA2. But y'know, better and less linear and stuff.

The scoring system could be an improved version of the one from SA2, that worked well overall.

EDIT: Thread control! Divergent topic can be found here: p072.ezboard.com/fsonichq...4676.topic

I like VCP's idea very much so, but I'd honestly settle for an unlockable Metal in Shadow's game (a la Adventure DX).

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There'd still be plenty of room for character specific routes in the levels, but they'd still play as high speed platform games like the Sonic stages of SA and the Sonic and Shadow stages of SA2. But y'know, better and less linear and stuff.

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By diverging I meant things like Knuckles stages in SA2 and Tails/Big stages...
There's loads of things you can do on platform like levels, Heroes had a nice amount of diversity, it's just a shame the engine made it all redundant.

For starters, Shadow had his AIR SHOES in Sonic Battle- BUT Sonic didn't have the equivalent power-up, the Light Shoes. That's GOTTA affect the speed there. Plus, in EVERY game SINCE that Sonic and Shadow have appeared in (AND in both of Shadow's previous appearances), Sega SPECIFICALLY states that Sonic and Shadow are EQUAL IN SPEED, putting Battle's idea into question as continuity-based, the only way you could salvage this is to theorise (like I do) that it's more of a one-game-only, gameplay-related idea to make Shadow more than just a Sonic-clone- and since Shadow now has all of his Chaos Attacks (those in SA2, Battle, and Shadow the Hedgehog), added to his willingness to use guns, this is less of a problem.
EDIT:

Also, Metal Sonic accelerates faster, and jumps higher, than Sonic or Shadow, and has lasers and such, but lacks the dash (spin-,light) moves and has basically NO braking ability. Shadow can pick up, carry, and throw heavier objects than can Sonic or (I'm guessing) Metal Sonic, and has no qualms (as I've mentioned) about knocking someone down and taking thier gun(or sword, etc.)and the aformentioned Chaos powers (Sonic, too, can use Chaos Control, but, this could just be MENTIONED in this game(or not), to preserve Shadow's individuality). Sonic seems to have a better grip and braking ability, and seems to be more skilled at using his speed to whip up winds and interact with environmental objects and special items a la Sonic and Knuckles.

So, their SPEED can be the same, but these differences alone make them more than a bit different.

Battle states specifically that he can run faster than Sonic because of his shoes.

Yeah. His AIR SHOES, which area level-up item from Sonic Adventure 2 (analogous to Sonic's Light Shoes), not his normal shoes on their own- his normal shoes aren't named (much like Sonic's or Tails', or Knuckles', etc.).

Sonic Battle is the best way to compare people's abilities via the cards. Shadow's speed card is clearly the best of the game.

...What's your point? Why does it matter? Do you just want to believe Sonic is as good as Shadow? That's already true. Strip them naked, and they're equal.

Giving any of them the same score for two attributes means you have to break it down to an A B system instead of an A B C system if you want to keep them equal overall, which is what I am of the wanting.

Even if you read from no where that Sonic and Shadow are equal, the original Sonic CD manual DOES say that Metal Sonic is better in every aspect than Sonic. It's supposed to be symbolic, you see. Sonic is good, he has the determination to win against all the odds, so his rivals are better than him but he continiously wins because he wants to win more.

Yeah, I'l admit Metal Sonic does seem to go faster than Sonic-in short bursts. But Sonic and Shadow are equal in speed Every source EXCEPT Battle says so. AND Shadow is physically stronger stronger than Sonic. So, yeah, Metal Sonic and Shadow can one-up Sonic in certain areas, but, Sonic can match-or exceed-each in other ways.

It's just I have a hard time figuring out WHAT source to believe as far as comparing Sonic and Shadow's speed goes, so, I have to go with the mountain of evidence as opposed to the molehill of dissension that is Shadow's and Sonic's compared Run Skill Cards in Battle.

That's all I'm saying.

And yeah, I get a little too passionate in arguments sometimes. Thanks for pointing that out calmly; I ALWAYS listen to logic, no matter HOW argumentative I get. Most people I know would've already spouted at least one obscenity- and I HATE cussing.

Note that I didn't see yer post before replying, Craig, and I was simply replying to sonic in general, incase you didn't already assume that.

Never seen the SCD manual, unfortunatley, and never heard of that before. What I have heard of is the whole "Where there's a will, there's a way" and "The one with the most will to win...will."

...

Besides, we all know the real reason Sonic always wins is because he and his ego are SONIC HEROES!!! 😀

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And yeah, I get a little too passionate in arguments sometimes. Thanks for pointing that out calmly; I ALWAYS listen to logic, no matter HOW argumentative I get. Most people I know would've already spouted at least one obscenity- and I HATE cussing.

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o_O

It's hardly an argument. It's barely qualifying as a discussion. I'd be a little concerned if people were swearing this early into it...

I mean I was going all gung-ho at it, and I tend to annoy people without realizing it when I do that.
EDIT:

And I meant the whole "Sonic vs. Shadow in speed" thing.

EDIT:

And by cussing, I guess I meant something along the lines of "Don't be so *bleeping* stubborn!!!"

And I do admit I'm pretty stubborn.

Here we are.

Image borrowed and cropped from an eBay auction for some kind of wall mount ornament thing from Japan.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6017660534&category=1345

4 times faster?! Geez, I knew Metal was faster, but that's insane! He must go from Nought to Neo in 20 seconds!

Thanks for the pic, Lee. I've never read that particular passage before, I just know you've referenced it in the past and when Lee says something, it be true!

It says that his SPEED matches Sonic's, but his RATE OF ACCELERATION is 4 times greater.

Or, did you get that already?

Noting that he can easily overtake you while using that move in the game, it's reasonable to assume that it means he can accelerate to 4 times Sonic's speed using that technique.

Oh. THAT'S what you meant. But still, for AVERAGE top speed, Sonic (and Shadow) still match him.

Besides, Metal Sonic would have to think ahead (that is, if he thinks like a living being) in order to tell when it would be most effective. I guess he does, but the fact that Sonic still beat him in Stardust Speedway speeks volumes. In fact, I rarely see the copper-wired copy during that race anymore, except at the beginning and end.

Plus, after using said move, he has to slow down so much that, compared to Sonic, he's practically sanding still, which further reduces the ability's usefullness in a flat-out footrace.

Interesting find, nonetheless. Kudos to Very Crazy Penguin!

Only other indicator we have is the unofficial Sonic R. Sure, it's made by Travellers Tales, but it is still a good indicator on speed, accelleration and control... ignoring the fact that RoboKnux wins on all 3

Anyone got an accurate recount of the statstics of that game?

Edit number MOO: It's pretty much finished. Almost 100% accurate. The characters that have the same scores for things are too close in ability for me to be able to tell without a friend. Metal still has the worst accel >_> and I dunno whether I should remove SS or give him actual scores

Did you just make those stats up?

Made up in the sense that I didn't dive into Sonic R's files to find the actual vales for top speed, acceleration, and handling that are programmed into the game, yes. I just ran tests on Reactive Factory and Radical City to compare the way they played.

I disagree completely.

All the characters are fast in the 2D Sonic games, even the new ones like Advance and Rush. What made multiple characters cool in S3&K was that they all had the basic Sonic gameplay, but each had specialties that allowed you to optionally explore areas you couldn't reach with other characters.

3D games can use the same concept, and there's absolutely no reason for them not to. The possibilities for specialties are actually even more varied in a 3D game with story elements.

The real way to design a level where some characters have flight would be, for example, a hole in a ceiling that leads to another path. Not a hole with a spring that shows you where it is, but something with a subtle hint, that makes you wonder about it and want to try the level again with a character who can go up there. And that path could make special use of flying skills. Another trick might be some bonus items instead of a path, for example an island of items that you find by climbing and gliding between some cliffs off the beaten path. And Espio's wall and ceiling climbing would open up tons of possibilities.

Something best suited to 3D with a story might be the concept of access, say Rouge has access to a computer which allows you to turn on the power to a level. Without her (or some other character who could hack it) the factory is mostly dark and you move through the "normal" version of the level, but with the power on it's bright, and many moving objects involved in traversing the level, as well as obstacles, are on. Sort of like how Knuckles started Sandopolis Zone Act 2 with the ghosts out.

And I just don't like the idea of Sonic only (or Sonic, Shadow, and Metal Sonic only), because I want to be able to play as Tails, Knuckles, Espio, and Vector, too. And some people feel that way about other characters. Really, it's a common and effective tactic in game design for most games, especially fighters. Give the player a bunch of ways to play the game. It's only because Sonic Adventure tried to turn some characters into half-assed mini-games rather than a tweak on the main game that the idea of Sonic only has even been suggested.

I think Espio would have TOO many possibilities. With the ability to run along anything, he could run straight up Tails-only shafts and stuff.

Vector needs something unique. Perhaps acute detection for traps with his excellent "detective skills"? He can't have uber strength to break walls and things because that's Knux's thang...unless you actually take that away from Knux just to make Vec unique. And I suppose Charmy would have infinite flight.

One unique idea I got for Espio is cameras. If you get too close, the door infront of the camera closes immediately, but the cameras don't detect camoflaged Espio.

Oh, and while that sounds good, I still like the idea of a Sonic, Metal, and Shadow only game. Slightly differentiated characters is enough for me{don't even need different scoring systems, though I'd like that}, especially if it's in levels like SA2's.

If it had multiplayer, you could have a Sonic vs. Shadow vs. Metal Sonic fight.

I'd have to say that THAT was one of Archie's better ideas.

As I've said before, what could be cooler than a three-way, no-holds-barred, light-speed-fist-fight-to-the-finish?

i suppose the story itself could be about:
sonic: here's from eggman that metal is continuing in his ongoing mission to beat sonic, set in sonic up on a journey to for his rival and either destroy him or being him back.
shadow: receives a mission from G.U.N to locate metal sonic and bring him back to base for analysis.
metal: spends his portion of the game finding whatever he needs to beat sonic or to become more like him

i suppose this story would create conflict of interest between sonic and shadow while metal analyze's their moves to become more similar to both, kinda like neo metal sonic

i suppose the story itself could be about:
sonic: here's from eggman that metal is continuing in his ongoing mission to beat sonic, set in sonic up on a journey to for his rival and either destroy him or being him back.
shadow: receives a mission from G.U.N to locate metal sonic and bring him back to base for analysis.
metal: spends his portion of the game finding whatever he needs to beat sonic or to become more like him

i suppose this story would create conflict of interest between sonic and shadow while metal analyze's their moves to become more similar to both, kinda like neo metal sonic

Wow, bumping a thread that's almost 4 years old...maybe you should consider looking at when the last post in a topic was made before nudging the dead?

I knew the topic was old when i read it.As far as I'm concerned a topic isn't dead as long as their are people with new idea's to inforce it and I'm sure you would have something to say on this subject

i suppose the story itself could be about:
sonic: here's from eggman that metal is continuing in his ongoing mission to beat sonic, set in sonic up on a journey to for his rival and either destroy him or being him back.
shadow: receives a mission from G.U.N to locate metal sonic and bring him back to base for analysis.
metal: spends his portion of the game finding whatever he needs to beat sonic or to become more like him

i suppose this story would create conflict of interest between sonic and shadow while metal analyze's their moves to become more similar to both, kinda like neo metal sonic

Wow, bumping a thread that's almost 4 years old...maybe you should consider looking at when the last post in a topic was made before nudging the dead?

So what if the topic is old? What's the harm? I don't understand why it's bad to summon an old topic -- it's what the forum design allows. Otherwise old topics should be deleted after so many days of unuse.

The stigma on ressurecting old topics is more about discussion.

In some cases, having a topic from 4 years ago brought back is not a good idea because that's 7 or so Sonic games ago, our understanding of the franchise has changed and some of the context from previous posts may no longer apply.

On the flip side, it's not worth creating a new topic when an old one is still available, and I believe we can all agree the Mobius Forum's audience has changed significantly in that time.

So, if anyone has anything of interest to say then it's worth the continued discussion. If it's just to give a 4 line plot synopsis of a non-existant game to justify an idea which only loosely relates to the original topic, then I'm not too sure it was worth dredging up.

Let's see what others say, by then it may sink back down on it's own.

I agree with Mr Authority about this thread. Also it should be considered that some of the people that originally posted in this thread years (including the op) have left for greener pastures. And in cases like this a new thread would have been the better choice (so that people do not refer to the past comments left by ex members which has no relevance to today's sonic).
Part of yuku's features is that topics don't just drop off, therefore all old threads will remain as if a history book of past mofo activities and scribbling new ideas on the back pages of these books is therefore frowned upon.

thank you craig and deus for your idea's regardless, I'm sure you know that as time passes text books updated and new events are presented as well as the scientists who's idea's could now be proven are later picked up by others who better those idea's. so i believe that as long as the topic is here, people will eventually pick it up, dust it off and present it as something new

You're totally missing the point. The if the idea of discussion needed to be presented as something new it would be an entirely new topic. You don't release a new text book which instead of updating outdated info, just adds chapters to the end of it.

I should also make note that there are forum rules on topic bumping and those in power may feel it neccessary to deal out warnings to those who continually disregard those rules.

The key is adding something. Bringing a topic back to light is a good thing so long as it's relevant to do so. Please note that this means you really need to add something that will make it topical and worth discussing again. The three sentance plot synopsis to a non-existant game does not really cut it.

Let's just get back to the main discussion or let the topic die again, or it will get locked for going off-topic.

well i do believe would be a good idea since there would any real change in pace