Sonic 3 & Knuckles was a $120 game that got marketed and sold twice and got 2 development periods, the second of which reused exactly the same engine and mostly the same sprites.
Even in the Genesis days, Sonic games were cash cows and got rushed, evident in Sonic 2 and much more in Sonic 3 which eventually got saved by lock-on technology. In fact I think that before lock-on, Sonic 3 was a mild disappointment after the longer Sonic 2. Sonic & Knuckles wasn't quite as good as Sonic 2 either, IMO, but came a lot closer, probably because they got to go much further in level design with the engine done.
Now certainly this doesn't excuse Sonic Team's ignoring of issues and going to market buggy, but I wonder if they could ever reach the level of polish and completeness of S3&K (in a technically challenging game with expectactions in line with technology, because you could certainly make a worthy Sonic 4 in 2D Viewtiful Joe style) without having a dual budget and schedule again, even if Sonic Team had the top talent available.
Even if they did, a lot of people would probably be finding a tiny, insignificant flaw to bash the game. They don't want their S3&K knocked off as Best Sonic Evar!
Are you talking about a 2D game or a 3D game? Because its not really clear.
I'll assume you meant a 3D game.
I don't think its possible for a Sonic 3 and Knuckles beater to happen... just like that /Tommy Cooper.
It would take development and more understanding what works in 3D and what doesn't work.
Take Sonic Adventure 1 to Shadow for example. Adventure was okay. A nice beginning. Some things didn't go with the traditional Sonic style (Fishing, Metal Hammer Solid) Whilst some did compliment the Sonic series (Gamma, Treasure Hunting, Racing). The level design was quite linear but it did offer some short cuts.
Sonic Adventure 2 I felt, improved the controls but it wasn't as nice as an expirence as Adventure 1 was. The Treasure Hunting Levels were not very well desgined and they were split into 3 parts so, in theory you would have to check the level three times. Gamma style shooting was quite fast and frantic. The Tails levels were horrible platforming and they were both too slow. The Sonic and Shadow levels were more linear than the Adventure levels but I felt that this along with the new scoring system did in fact, compliment the game. It was a bit like that new french sport that involves running and jumping, but with robots.
It was a sideways improvement from Adventure. Some bits were better, some bits were worse.
Heroes by all accounts is Sonic Adventure 3 with team play minus the upgrades. I enjoyed the first six levels. The main problem with this game was after Adventure1/2 which for the most part quite nice and safe (saving the last couple of levels), enclosed by scenery. These were tightropes in the sky. Most of the time if you explored there was a chance that you would fall off and die. The game had other problems but the amount of times you would die because you were over zealous with the B button was the main one.
Shadow was Sonic Adventure 4 with Guns and Powers. But this had nicer level design than Heroes. Whilst there was still Tightropes in the Sky (Iron Jungle, Cosmic Fall) There were a some versions of the old Adventure levels. There was even some alternate routes through parts of the levels (Gun Fortress) which depended on whether you were a bad guy or a good guy. Also there was the occasional Open Ended level in the style the Treasure hunting levels (Central City is the most obvious but it was a horrible level). Over all though the game should never have been thought of unless it was a nice little parody of the gaming world now.
I do think the games have improved (slowly) in terms of level design but not in the overall quality of the product. In comparison with the most other games the Sonic games lack polish. And its this reason why the games are slated.
I would argue that *if* the next Sonic 3D Game was as technically perfect as Ratchet and Clank, Prince of Persia and the Jak series and others but the game was much more linear the game would be rated much higher than the previous games where the level design has improved but the polish has declined. The Ratchet series has always been pretty linear with good platforming and puzzles.
I never walked away from S3&K feeling cheated. To me they were two great games that Voltroned into one Supa-Great game.
They can surpass it but it will take Sega really wanting to spend the cash for it. They have to get a group of developers that loves Sonic, wants to make him great again, has experience in making a well received game before and are given the resources they need to carry out their vision.
Sonic was so good back then because Sega new that that it had to be good or Nintendo would eat then up and poop them out. Sega needs to get desperate again, and make their next Sonic like their very jobs and/or lives depend on it.
If Sega needed to make a S3&K-caliber game in order to make money, then they would make one. They do not need to, and so they will not.
To be honest, I don't think S3&K is an impossible act to follow, as I think SA had it beat pretty good. I know most people consider S3&K the model for which all future Sonics should be measure, but for me the thing that even makes S3&K a contender to SA is the Hyper forms (or Super form in Tails' case). SA is my favorite, especially for the Adventure fields, which makes me like Next-Gen fairly well; I just enjoying running around town and talking to people and what have you. Plus, I loved SA's story.
SA had an awesome story because it respected and paid homage to the story laid down by S3&K. You can't say that about anything post-SA1.
That's true, SA continued with Knuckles' backstory about the Echidna race, giving clues as to how they became wiped out (hint: CHAOS), also, giving a 'nod' to the Super Emeralds and generally giving more backstory on the Master Emerald.
This is what made SA1 good, the fact that they story writers actually did their research!
You look at any recent Sonic games' story (Sonic Rivals for example) and it's basic rent-a-story trash!
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Is Sonic 3 & Knuckles an impossible act to follow?
Simple answer? Yes. For me, anyway, because it's nostalgic; that doesn't mean, in terms of quality, it won't be beaten, it just means it won't give a certain generation of us that same warm, fuzzy feeling.
All Sonic Team really needs to do is have good level design, something like a cross between the more open levels of SA and the linear, speedy parts of SA2, with few pits. I don't mind high-up tightrope platforming, but if I were to fall I'd prefer to just go along a lower path, perhaps with fewer rewards, than lose a life and restart the level. Multiple characters are okay, but NOT multiple gameplay styles. Characters can all go through the same levels, just different paths based on their abilities. Keep special moves, guages, etc. to a minimum, if not non-existant. All we really need is run, jump, and one or two character-specific moves. In 3D or not, just use Sonic3&K as a good onlook model... stick to that formula, much as I hate to say those words, and you'll do fine, Sonic Team.
-Jake
*sigh*
All of you go away and leave my S3&K alone!
*shoos you all away with flaming pitchfork*
IMO, I don't really think S3&K will evet be surpassed, or even met, by any Sonic game. Ever. Call me a pessimest or whatever the word is, but S3&K's greatness + Sonic Team's apparent lack of love for Sonic anymore (._.), = bleak future. Maybe they can come out with a Sonic Rush 2 or something, that'd be great, but as of now, I don't think its possible, 2D or 3D, for Sonic Team to ever surpass S3&K.
._.
Since Sonic 3 and Knuckles is among the 2 or 3 greatest platformers ever made (I'd take Yoshi's Island, Ristar and Klonoa 2 under consideration), I don;t see it being matched any time soon.
That said, I thought that about Planescape: Torment a year ago.
It could easily be matched. To think it would take even half as long or as much difficulty to make a new S3&K with today's technology is ludicrious. They could make something which makes S3&K look like Atari's ET, if they wanted to.
The 2 reasons they don't are simply:
1. The kids today, they play the 3d games, with their straffing and their dodgin' and their blasting and their boppin'... they don't know what the 2D GAMES! is all about. See, 2d games are like Jello Pudding... no... no... they're like the new coke! They'll be around forever. HURGH HURGH HURGH!
Or "to survive in the market now, Sega are spoonfeeding what the kids wanna see, in this case AMAZING GRAPHICS 3d WICKED!", with 2d relegated to handheld gaming, and as Sonic Rush didn't sell as well as Sega wanted, they don't seem interested in that series anymore.
2. Why waste all that time and effort making something shining, when you can sell crap and make a profit?
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It's not that S3&K is impossible to surpass, it's that there's no major market for the game to be surpassed. Hell, any 2d gaming market can be appeased by another Mega or Gems collection. It's DA KIDZ who pay the bills, we just lick their feet afterwards and shower them with full price game money for things we bought 10 years ago.
While I want more 2D Sonic games, I really mean in a 3D game. With a decent budget, I could whip out a very good and probably better Sonic game than S3&K. Pixel Studios is ONE Japanese developer who made the freeware game Cave Story that's not in S3&K's league but one of the better platformers ever made. 3D is harder though, especially since they don't have an established formula that's entirely worked in 3D.
I do think a better than S3&K 3D Sonic game is possible. Sonic Heroes could have done it with another year of development. Of course, SEGA doesn't have a financial incentive. Maybe STH360 will make them do so.
Except Rush is over a year old and still selling rather well, last I checked.
Other than that, Cosby Billfield is more or less right. Craig's points are good too.
I still won't think people will enjoy it if a Sonic surpasses S3&K.
One: Nostaligia. There are still some people who would hang on to the past and say the S3&K is the best and nothing will change it.
Two: Comparison. Probably the bigger of the two evils. Comparing games will just leave bad taste people's mouths. Example: Super Mario Sunhsine. A good game in it's own right. Too bad everyone expected it to be like Super Mario 64.
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Or "to survive in the market now, Sega are spoonfeeding what the kids wanna see, in this case AMAZING GRAPHICS 3d WICKED!", with 2d relegated to handheld gaming, and as Sonic Rush didn't sell as well as Sega wanted, they don't seem interested in that series anymore.
Sega's disintrest in a sequel doesn't have to do with poor sales as SH mentioned that the game is still selling pretty well. It more has to do with a falling out between Sega and Dimps because of a ownership dispute of the Rumblefish games.
giving a 'nod' to the Super Emeralds
No it did'nt. Otherwise, that means that the emeralds were "Super Emeralds" when they were laying around in the levels, since they were the exact same size when they're on the pedestals.
It can be a "nod" due to the fact that the emeralds lost their color in SA after Chaos used them but still had power that Sonic could also use. Having "two sets" of power is a "nod" of sorts to S3&K with one set of power being "Super" (with the chaos emeralds) and a second set of power being "Hyper" (with the super emeralds--or "Super" for Tails). The same could even be said for both Sonic & Shadow using them in SA2.
