Hi, I am new here. I want to share my opinion on an issue that seems big among Sonic fans in general. I do not know much about this forum, so please try to go easy on me.
Now I shall start expressing my opinion.
Sonic has never been as fast int the Genesis days as fans have said that he was. Sonic was not even close to running at the speed of sound back int he Genesis era. The way the backgound of every level he ran through, which went off screen in the opposite direction at the same speed Sonic moved at made it apparent that Sonic was moving so fast. So basically, Sonic was not really moving as fast as others say he was. The relative motion of the background made it seem that Sonic was going very fast. In shot, Sonic's speed in the genesis games was merely more of an sensation-inducing illusion than actually moving at blazing speeds.
But that is only a fraction of the "speed" classic old school fans believed to be experiencing in those days.
With the loops, corkscrews, and many roller coaster elements; as well as the bumpers, flippers, and other collision obstacles in the classic Sonic games, players would control Sonic and have him go through many twist and turns that added to the "speed" Sonic players thought they were recieving form Sonic games. Basically, the in-game physics of those games were made so that Sonic would be able to go though such roller coaster like elements. In reality, Sonic would have to overcome friction, a real life force that would slow down Sonic big time, in order to run those loops.
Now, like I said, Sonic was never as fast as fans said that he was. Perhaps if he did actually run at the speed of sound in those games without the physics that existed back then, it would not be any more difficult to run through loops and such. However, players could run into things easier than they could as Sonic back in the genesis games. The developers made the classic Sonic games so that the games would be well balanced in terms of controls, and players would not have to hit walls or other obstacles more frequently than the actual speed Sonic ran from.
Also, regarding the many loops and other roller coaster like elements players made Sonic run through in the Genesis era; those games had well made momentum physics that added more to the sense of Sonic's speed. Sonic's momentum would carry him through those roller coaster like elements, which in turn, made classic Sonic games more fun, but more challenging. Take away all the momentum Sonic had as he ran with the ilusory supersonic speed back then, or have Sonic actually go at the speed of sound without any momentum, and it would be impossibe for Sonic to get across such routes.
The momentum physics were what most likely gave that sense of speed to Sonic fans back then. The momentum physics in Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 were not well done nor well developed. The lack of such physics may have taken away the "sense of speed" Sonic players were craving.
Other games, like Sonic Adventures 1 and 2 and the day time levels of Sonic Unleashed had well developed momentum physics to add to the sense of speed. While Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Unleashed may not be the kind of Sonic games that old school fans wanted so much, most fans may be able to agree that Sonic Adventure 1 was the closest to the classics that any 3D Sonic game has ever been. Not because of the character interactions, but there was a sense of speed players from the old school days wanted to have in a Sonic game. However, Sonic was not the only playable character. There were characters other than Sonic that could be playable. However, soem characters had gameplay that old schoolers were not thrilled to have, like Big the Cat's fishing gameplay. However; not unlike the classic Sonic days of the Genesis, Sonic did not move any faster than the speed of sound. Just like the classics before Sonic Adventure, the sense of Sonic's speed in that game was once again; merely an illusion.
But of alle twist and turns that may have added to the sense of speed in classic Sonic games; there was one thing that anyone playing those did not apparently recieve from playing the games: Vertigo.
Now, there is a game in first person view called Mirror's Edge, which had gameplay as shown here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N1TJP1cxmo
Now, take a look at that video above, and look at this video from the movie theater of the collection game: Sonic Jam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_5swslxkIA
Now skip to the 0:35 Second mark. You will see Sonic running though the area in first person view. Now, most classic Sonic fans say that Sonic is just all about speed. Sonic is actually more about speed and platforming than speed alone. But have a game as fast as Sonic Unleashed's daytime levels and put a "Mirror's Edge" like camera view int he works. Would you even want that game?
I hope not!
Playing a game like that would most likely have people end up in the hospital because of motion sickness. Then, Sega would be sued big time from all of this, and they could go out of business! The reason the loops and corkscrews were not done in the way that they could induce vertigo in 3D Sonic games was because Sonic Team wanted to make sure that Sonic's running through loops at specific camera angles (like the camera following Sonic or in first person view) was so that 3D Sonic games would be safe to play without anyone being at risk of motion sickness.
Technically; the reason no one got such sickness in the Genesis Sonic games was because how simple the camera system was back then, and also because of the fact that all Sonic games made back then (except Sonic 3D Blast) were all made in 2D. With 2D styled gameplay and the camera system back then, even the most hardcore old school Sonic fan would not be aware of the actual effects of going through those roller coaster elements by controlling a character like Sonic in such a video game.
Well, that is pretty much it. Any thoughts or comments?
going that fast in a first person view wouldn't be all that bad actually. You already have games like Burnout and cant you change the camera to first person in that blindingly fast racing game?
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B Vulpix wrote:
going that fast in a first person view wouldn't be all that bad actually. You already have games like Burnout and cant you change the camera to first person in that blindingly fast racing game?
I did not say it was that bad. It just seems like a risk that would not be worth Sega taking a chance on.
I don't think the "Sonic's about speed" thing is so much about Sonic's speed in and of itself, or how fast he's "supposed" to be going, so much as about the idea that the Sonic series is "supposed" to be focusing on speed, or that by putting shooting levels and stuff like that into the games, they're straying from the series' "roots"; not that I quite agree with that idea either. Who gets to say what the series' "roots" are? It happens to be a matter of circumstance how the series came about; do they really need to stick to that? I'm guessing people have nostalgia towards the style of the older games; heck, I myself like the superficial similarities to the older ones. (Like the checkered walls in some of Sonic Heroes, which seemed to be a reference to Sonic 1)
That said, I haven't played the more recent Sonic games (unless Sonic Advance 3 and Heroes count... and Riders, which I played for a couple minutes at a mall once) so I'm not quite sure where the series has been going since. But I've noticed the comics and cartoons don't seem to get this "they've strayed from Sonic's roots" complaint as much, and aside from the one whose story seemed to be based on Sonic 1's gameplay, (I thought I recall reading something outside of ArchieSonic along those lines) they've if anything diverged from the roots even more. Though I recall someone on GS gave the analogy about comparing Zelda games to Zelda cereal, not quite sure what he/she meant...
But still, according to Takashi Iizuka, (who IIRC was in charge of the Adventure series and Sonic Heroes) there were a lot of fans who said they WANTED to see shooting elements in a Sonic game. Damned if you do, damned if you don't? If he had reason to believe that having different kinds of gameplay in the Sonic series was the more profitable approach, what would you expect him to do? IF the shooting levels are a bad thing, (and I don't think they necessarily are) then wouldn't the people who requested such things in the first place be at least partly to blame? I'm no laissez-faire purist, (far from it) but I can't help but think people just go after businesspeople because they're the easy target, since I see a similar thing in people who blame oil companies for high gas prices without considering that they're simply responding to consumer demand, and while the fact that a video game series isn't quite like it used to be isn't as important, I think it's similar.
And if you don't like that, there's always SRB2.
Sonic is about speed, but, he's about having the speed in a platforming environment. What's the main difference between Mario and Sonic? Sonic goes through the worlds fast.
I think the Sonic levels in Unleashed were almost spot-on. Things could be fixed in the 3D areas, and there could be more unique platforming, overall.
Sonic is about speed, but, he's about having the speed in a platforming environment. What's the main difference between Mario and Sonic? Sonic goes through the worlds fast.
Depends on which Sonic game you're talking about. Or at least which levels within it.
I thought the mechanics for Unleashed were actually pretty awful. Maybe it'd work if the controls weren't so horrible. I can't control where I'm going whatsoever. Makes stages like Cool Edge Day Act 1 a complete chore to get through, particularly the part where you run across a large body of water onto a small iceberg conveniently placed in the middle of it all, since a slight deviation on the analog stick entails going wildly off-course, and once you're off-course, it's really, really hard to get back on and STAY back on.
To be blunt, I want the games to go back to being focused on momentum, and unique applications thereof. The "boost" can get bent, to be honest. All the people who insist the series should only be going faster and faster should go replay the classic titles and study them, so as to see why this is the wrong thing to be asking for. It's not even that hard to notice - Sonic didn't always move at Mach 5 all the time. He's nigh uncontrollable when he does. The good players can get him to go at comparable speeds, certainly (I mean, have you SEEN the speedruns?), but for the novice gamer stepping up to the plate, there should be a solid platformer under all the glamor, and Unleashed has none of this. It's too focused on going fast for its own good. The novice gamer, not being able to go this fast since he hasn't memorized the stage like the advanced players have, will be subjected not to clever platforming, but to various pitfalls, wall-faceplants, unavoidable traps and general trial-and-error. Which isn't a fun game. Not in the slightest. I'm sure it's fun once you've committed the stage to memory, but even then the whole thing is naught more than a glorified QTE - you're just playing out the motions, jumping where expected to, boosting here for a faster time and better grade, etc. You're not jumping because you want to check a higher level, you're jumping because if you don't do it, the game will punish you with immediate death.
Yeah, I don't have very flattering things to say about Unleashed. And people think I'm crazy for the dissent...
Is Sonic about speed? Yes. Is Sonic all about speed? No.
That is so wrong. Mario runs almost as fast as Sonic 1 in Super Mario World. The difference is that Mario is more about using tools and objects to explore scripted secrets that lead to more, relatively small levels, while Sonic is more about using momentum and free roaming to explore the entirety of a few huge levels, in the Genesis era that is.
Hmm? So would that make SRB2 more of a Sonic game than some of the recent commercial ones?
As a developer of SRB2: yes, it does, and that's kind of the point.
Well, I can agree with you on this, but you hardly touched on Super Sonic. Now he was actually running at the speed of sound, or at least something close to it. (Hyper Sonic may have gone faster, but I never noticed too much of a diference)
Of course, SS had about the slipperiest controls ever, I've seen people take a good 20 seconds just to hop on a spring with him. Still, I say SS is what made the genesis games (And Sonic R) worthewhile.
Well, I can agree with you on this, but you hardly touched on Super Sonic. Now he was actually running at the speed of sound, or at least something close to it. (Hyper Sonic may have gone faster, but I never noticed too much of a diference)
Of course, SS had about the slipperiest controls ever, I've seen people take a good 20 seconds just to hop on a spring with him. Still, I say SS is what made the genesis games (And Sonic R) worthewhile.
o.o What makes you think that?
Anyway, as for how fast they were "actually" going according to the game, in this thread I described a way of determining speed based on things like character height...
Well, I can agree with you on this, but you hardly touched on Super Sonic. Now he was actually running at the speed of sound, or at least something close to it. (Hyper Sonic may have gone faster, but I never noticed too much of a diference)
Of course, SS had about the slipperiest controls ever, I've seen people take a good 20 seconds just to hop on a spring with him. Still, I say SS is what made the genesis games (And Sonic R) worthewhile.
No he wasn't. The only actual difference between Sonic and his super form in the 16-bit games was colouration and looks - if you were to pick up an invincibility and speed shoes power up you achieved the same effect, albeit only for a limited period. And as for Super Sonic in Sonic R, I remember picking that up and playing it again recently and wondering how on Earth I ever thought this was an accurate representation of what was supposed to be happening. It was so pedestrian it was painful.
The only Sonic game I've played of late where I've actually felt as though he was moving close to the kind of speed he's supposed to be capable of is Unleashed - the Wii version, that is. (On a side note, I'd say this version is deserving of the ravings people have had about it. I've played a demo of the PS3/360 version and didn't see the point. It's got Sonic Advance 2 syndrome!) Secret Rings kinda managed it as well with the speed break ability - although that also had the inherent problem you'd have with moving at such high speed, i.e lack of control. (Putting aside the control issues with that game anyway that is).
I've more to say on the matter but I've places to go - I'll edit this post later.
No he wasn't. The only actual difference between Sonic and his super form in the 16-bit games was colouration and looks - if you were to pick up an invincibility and speed shoes power up you achieved the same effect, albeit only for a limited period.
Actually, 16-bit Super Sonic was enhanced from normal Sonic in more ways than powers ups could give him. His max jump height was greater, for example, and it always seemed to me that, even though you were moving crazy fast, you had a lot of control over him. Super Sonic could change direction in midair easily, and he could stop on a dime when running at top speed. But I'm not sure if Super Sonic is any faster, per se, than Speed Shoe'd Sonic, although perhaps it just seemed that way because the Invincibility and the increased Jump Height meant no obstacle could slow you down.
But I'm not sure if Super Sonic is any faster, per se, than Speed Shoe'd Sonic, although perhaps it just seemed that way because the Invincibility and the increased Jump Height meant no obstacle could slow you down.
Except the Mystic Cave spike pit of DOOM.
*wince*
