That's weird, I heard the exact opposite...

http://www.gamespot.com/x...nic-unleashed-interview-3

Well, so much for a career in politics!

As tempting as the concept is, I'm expecting all they'll bother to do is publish another Sonic Rush, but with the graphics of the Genesis games. And since the graphics, in all honesty, are just FINE as they are, that just wouldn't do it for me. It's the mechanics that have completely gone down the crapper since Sonic Advance 2, which put emphasis on rote memorization of the various routes over actually doing any platforming (compare to Sonic Advance and/or Sonic Pocket Adventure, which aren't perfect but have all the right ideas in place), and unless the mechanics are revived alongside any other retro throwbacks, I'm not buying it.

Also.

Well, so much for a career in politics!

You kidding? In America? Flip-flopping like this practically makes him BORN for politics!

You kidding? In America? Flip-flopping like this practically makes him BORN for politics!

I did chuckle i'll admit. But this is interesting...definitely if MM9 and Bionic Commando are getting Sega to lean towards older gameplay. What I think is so funny about it is before my friends and I went to Video Games Live[which...monumentally owned any concert ever on Earth] we played MM9 and one of my buddies was like, "Why doesn't Sega do this with the Sonic series...it could not go wrong...seriously" or something to that degree. I admit...i'd love more than anything[excluding a Virtual On Tournament ] for Sonic to go back to his old ways and shine in his 16 Bit supremecy, but Sega...just keeps pushing and pushing for three dimensions. Pour souls....for they know not what they ruin.

Just because it would be in 2-D doesn't mean it would be good.

Well, so much for a career in politics!

You kidding? In America? Flip-flopping like this practically makes him BORN for politics!

I am pretty sure he was indeed kidding.

I'd definitely love to see this material be remade.

Just because it would be in 2-D doesn't mean it would be good.

Hush!

Well, he's right. The Advance series, while decent, haven't been able to capture the magic of the original trilogy. Rush (and to a smaller extent, Rush Adventure) was really more of the same with a well-polished sheen, but it still couldn't knock the originators from their lofty perch. The Sonic Team of today is vastly different from the Sonic Team of ages past, and it appears that no one currently employed there is capable of matching what the original team and STI were able to accomplish (with far less resources and internal studio drama, I might add).

Inticreates understood what made classic MM special. Grin understood what made the original Bionic Commando special. From there they were able to craft a game that not only lived up to the originals, they surpassed them (well, in BC's case at least).

The question is: does Sega understand? And if they don't, who does?

Psxphile wrote:
The question is: does Sega understand? And if they don't, who does?

Nintendo. Look no further than New Super Mario Bros. If Sega could pull off something like that with the original Sonic, it would be fantastic. Keyword IF. Which I think we have been saying for a couple years now....

New Super Mario Bros. is a pretty bad example. I found it to be a shallow, linear, boring experience that sells butt loads on it's name alone.

You know, the original games aren't as great as our memories are telling us they are.

The level design is undoubtably better, but I'd rather bust out Sonic Rush than Sonic 3 & Knuckles, any day... and even then, half the time I'd rather bust out CD or 2, as S3&K feels too big, despite being a 2 hour game to CD's 50 minute and Sonic 2's 35 minute.

First off, Sonic 2 is 35-45 minutes at most (probably a bit over an hour with emeralds. Heaven knows, my first proper play as an 8 year old I beat it by Christmas afternoon) if you know what you're doing. It's considered a classic by all, and even some (blinded by nostalgia, in my opinion) believe it to be the best in the series.

Now, think about everyone's primary reaction to New! Super Mario Brothers. "Too short!!!!" 8 hours to finish that game (compared to <1 for the original) was too short for most, and given that it was built with th linear path that the original Super Mario Brothers was, it didn't have much replay, especially as the stage design wasn't turned into an emulatable classic (ala Green Hill Zone) due to being the first in the saga.

Point is, if Sega made a game which was S3&K but new, it would be disappointing, it would reek of limitation, lack of longevity and possibly laziness. Not saying it's law, I don't know what the MM9 fans have been saying, though given it is basically Mega Man 2 with a new story and maps, it is buried in nostalgia anyway.

I personally love the Sonic Rush approach, it's taking the series to a new point. I think the boss battles should go back to mini-boss/zone boss things in the stage, but otherwise, I don't think too much needs to change. Sonic Advance 3 was the nearest we've gotten to Genesis style level design and set-up and that is the least talked about of the series, possibly least talked about of the GBA next to Pinball Party.

Thing is, the franchise itself wont spin back on it's axis. That can't and wont happen. Big The Cat? Here to stay. Forever. With Amy, Cream, Rouge, Shadow perhaps even Omega, Team Chaotix and lord knows whoelse.

Kind of disappointing with that wide variety of characters who wont die there is no merchandise these days. I'd buy an Omega action figure. *poutpout*

So, really... when given the option of having a shallow nostalgic experience which feels short and unsatisfyingly limited or short and a new experience which feels short and unsatisfyingly limited... I'm going with the one that has the dash button.

I mean, that thing is amazing, it's the best addition to the Sonic franchise in forever and I wont let you selfish people take it away from me ;_____________;

...

Seriously, though. A decent "oldskool Sonic" would be badass, but unrealistic and as unsatisfying as another Rush would probably feel. I just happen to prefer Rush. It's in my top 3 with SA1 and Sonic CD.

Sorry, but I really think the dash button was the worst addition the series has ever seen. Don't get me wrong, it's functional, unlike a lot of the other gimmicks they've tried to shoehorn in, but it completely changed the entire focus of the series, and into one that I just don't like. I always enjoy exploring every last nook and cranny of the various platformers I play, especially when secret passages are hidden all over. Sonic was chock full of that, with plenty of secret rooms and interesting shortcuts you could get by getting enough momentum and jumping off that ramp at just the right angle.

Compare to now, where there aren't any secrets. All there is is the need to hold right, jumping occasionally, and mashing on the "dash" button whenever an enemy or otherwise insurmountable obstacle winds up in your way. It's become a soulless QTE, being forced to press the right button at the right time, where you get no fulfillment from getting all the bonuses scattered around, but only by achieving a flawless run through the stage, the sort of thing only the most obsessed time-attackers would ever do. (And let's be honest, they'd do it either way. :P)

In a time attack sense, Rush is a great game. I'm not a time attacker, and that's never why I played the series. I liked the old mechanics so much more before they threw them all out the window and tossed in a lazy "dash button" to solve all Sonic's problems. And, honestly, that's what I want a return to... but Sega has shown itself to be completely blind to creating a game that I'd play these days. Why listen to me, when there are a thousand idiotic members of the gaming press screaming "MORE SPEED! MORE SPEED!" when that's not even all the series had to begin with? Why is it that I can see the flaws here, but they can't - or if they do, they immediately chalk it up to the game not being fast enough (when it sure as bloody hell is)?

Also, Sonic Advance was the closest to the originals. Sonic Advance 3 was sort of in between that and Sonic Advance 2. Sonic Advance 2 failed mostly for having the same flaws Rush does, only that Rush has the dash button to make running at those speeds feasible (and therefore an okay game), while Sonic Advance 2 doesn't.

I dunno, the hidden stuff thing was a staple of platformer gams bak in the early 90's and a lot of games did it far better than Sonic, heck Super Mario World alone would kick the crap out of the entire Sonic saga from 1991 to present day in the terms of exploration and level design, so I hardly think that was THE appeal of the Sonic games. AN appeal, perhaps, but Kid Chameleon had better secrets and hidden stuff. That's hardly up for debate. Any game which has secret level warps and alternate ways of progressing through the game would beat Sonic.

Fact of the matter is Sonic was originally marketed on BLAST PROCESSING!!!!1 and speed. Does that make me an idiotic idiot for pointing it out? Heck no. I'm insulted that the assertion that a high adreneline platformer game is more exciting than a slow and carefully paced one would make me a dumb fanboy.

I think back, right now, to Fantasia, Alladin and Castle of Illusion on the Mega Drive/Genesis, Disney games I know, but the point is that with all three of them I have common memories of trying to make a jump, failing, climbing back, trying again and such, waiting about for a certain jump to be open.

Even in say, Aquatic Ruins Zone and Mystic Caves which have moving platforms, I never remember waiting around that much or having to retrace my steps. Only times I do remember waiting were gimmicks, from the arms in Mystic Caves, the screws in Metropolis, the awesome absailing vines in Sandopolis and such.

I can't argue that it didn't exist, but I can make one legitimate arguement.

Sonic games were designed with the idea of not stopping during a level, sparring such gimmicks. Why?

Sonic is, to my memory, the only franchise where an enemy can be killed without an "attack" button or aiming a jump onto their head. As long as you're rolling or jumping, they will die and not really halt you up in the process.

Hardly see how that is different from the Dash function, except the Dash function requires charge and makes you go faster, which is hardly a bad thing given that it's a power up and an option. That would be like accusing the Speed Shoes power-up from being the worst thing in Sonic because it asserts speeding and not exploring.

I'm not saying that Sonic cannot be PLAYED differently, and I do agree that there are less hidden one ups and invisible walls (something I HATE, by the way. What the hell is the point of an invisible wall?) than there used to be, BUT the intent of the designers always seemed to be speed. That's why Sonic outran lava flows, ran around loops and ran on water in S3&K and outran a blimp and raced against a boss in his second game.

So read what you want and say that people shouting about the games needing more speed are stupid and so forth, but it is very clear that Sonic was always a speed based hero, the Dash function is just the natural evolution of this.

And, for the record, ever since a 7 year old Kitty played Labyrinth Zone, I have hated any moment in the games where it forced you to sit around and wait. Does anyone really think that holding right on the Metropolis screw is FUN. If "holding right" is really what you hate, then that is a worse offender. At least in Sonic Advance 2 and Sonic Rush, the worst offenders in your opinion, there are Sky Rail and Altitude Limit Zones which pretty much rain on the idea that "hold right" is the way to play.

No, no, my comments about idiots wasn't addressed to you, I was addressing it to the press. They literally chalk up every flaw to "not fast enough". Even Sonic 2K6, which was probably the fastest Sonic's ever gone (when he's actually going fast, anyway). It's getting to the point where they're bad-mouthing the original Genesis games for not being as fast as Rush, which I frankly think is a completely ridiculous proposition. They were fun for being fast, but not ONLY because they were fast.

I'll admit that speed has been Sonic's hook, and that you really can't take that away from him. The ability to play the game at an insane speed IF you hit all the right spots is great. The problem is that Sega seems to now think that's the ONLY way to play the game, and have in essence screwed over people like me, who DO play the games somewhat more meticulously. I object to that, and that's also one of the reasons I hate the dash button - it embraces playing the game in a fashion that, honestly, you should only be playing the game like if you're really good at it, not because that's how the game HAS to be played. Speed is good, yes, but the classic games generally only had it in measured doses, after which they frequently slowed you down and added some platforming elements. Very well thought-out and streamlined ones, too, given that, as you said, you rarely had to wait after botching a jump for a floating platform (or if you did, it was typically a high route for a special bonus item, and you shouldn't have been taking it anyway if you really wanted to just rush through everything).

The main problem with the dash button is that it's now the dominating factor of Sonic games. The platforming elements have been excised entirely, in favor of constantly rushing forward. That's a pretty fundamental difference right there. The only reason you would have been constantly rushing forward in the older games is if you were so skilled as to be doing a speedrun of the game, or otherwise inclined to do so. I also wouldn't compare the Speed Shoes to the dash button; although I'll grant you that both focus on the concept of running as fast as possible, the difference is that the speed shoes usually had a purpose, level design-wise. Take the 1up on the top of the first loop in GHZ2, for instance; the speed shoes are specifically placed just far enough away that you can use their boost to clear the gap on the left and just jump straight to it. The dash button removes inventive little things like that, since you can now clear insurmountable gaps like that at will. What fun is that? Where's the challenge? The idea that there is an out-of-reach object that you have to rely on the level design to reach, nixed because you can now just tap one button and boom, you're there.

So fine, maybe dashing through an enemy is a natural evolution of the ability to roll through him. Shame that there's no longer a sense of trying to get the proper momentum to pass the various obstacles anymore (rolling down hills allows you to gain speeds you just couldn't when running, remember), since the instant any obstacle comes up against you, even if you're at a complete standstill and would have little hope of overcoming it in the Genesis games, you can just hold a button down and suddenly you're moving at a constant speed throughout the whole level (as long as that bar lasts - which any competent player can keep up for a good amount of time, given the right amount of enemies to smash through and enough air to spam the R trigger and gain tons of said bar for little effort at all). It's not so much that this doesn't work well, so much as it completely changes the focus of the entire series from keeping a good momentum to keeping that damn bar filled (which, as I've explained, is really easy to do).

Also, you might be taking "just hold right" too literally. Fine, you hold left occasionally too. Point is, the game's constantly forcing you forward; and no, what I remember of Sky Rail and Altitude Limit, they still boiled down to that. While it's true that you should always be heading onward to some extent, there should still be some occasional detours to make heading onward through the level interesting - something to have you stop and smell the roses, as it were. Like, say, take Wing Fortress; there's a really nifty 1up hidden towards the bottom right of the level that you'd only find by exploring. In the latest 2D games, things like that wouldn't even be there, you'd be constantly rushed forward right to the boss; and if you tried to stop and explore down there anyway, you'd quickly be greeted with everyone's best friend, the bottomless pit, because, oh, you fool! You're not supposed to EXPLORE in this game! You're supposed to JUMP that gap in an utterly linear and predictable fashion! That's really what "just hold right" means - the levels are designed so that there's no point at all in doing much other than going forward (which, with a few exceptions, is to the right).

Not to say that it should be taken to such extremes as Labyrinth Zone. It certainly had exploration, but it lacked any flow (constantly jumping up those jagged walls, for instance). Aquatic Ruins and Hydrocity are really far better examples of the water level in action, given that their levels are designed that you can still play them relatively quickly, even underwater. Labyrinth... you just CAN'T.

Still sorry if I offended you, mind. Didn't mean any offense. Just trying to make it easier for you to empathize with me, even if you can never agree.

I want to see a 2D sonic game of sonic doing martial arts fighting towards his enemies, while still being able to dash and everything else he's been able to do in the 2D Sonic games.

I'm with Shad here, a couple of years ago I decided to play through Sonic 3 a bit, and I went through Hydro City Zone and Marble Garden Zone alone routes I had never seen before, and I've been playing the game for over ten years at that point.

Sure there were no prizes for doing so, but I didn't care, it was still fun finding new ways to go through the levels.

Crackdown is a recent game that I feel had this charm, even though you could do each and every boss in consecutive order, there were many ways in which to defeat each one, none really offering more than a boost for the skill used in that method, however I got a lot more enjoyment just free running around the city, trying to climb the highest buildings.

I think the real problem is Sonic never took exploration to the extremes he could have given his abilities, in 2D or 3D, but it was there to begin with.

I also agree that the dash button may as well just be renamed the fix it button, and I miss building and keeping momentum I built up myself rather than relying on a rocket booster.

I'm not saying Rush isn't fun though, far from it, I think Advance 2 is fun for what it is, but I had greater enjoying from the Megadrive titles, and still do, than any of the recent handheld releases, and pretty much all the home console releases since SA2.

Personally I'm hoping Unleashed has some of the old feel mixed in with the Rush style, but I'm still doubtful.

Hmm, I wonder what it would be like to have a sandbox type, free roaming level to get to the different levels or something like that, like Super Mario 64, in that that sandbox was fun in of itself and had incentive to explore, only moreso, like in SA1. I don't really know how you could do that in 2D though, unless it was an overhead perspective of some kind. I don't know how that would work though and would likely not be taken too well... And personally, I think New Super Mario brothers was pretty good. Not to mention it sold well AND was received well by fans and the press in general, though I agree what worked back in the 80s/early 90s would not work now in terms of level design and length. I mean there is only so much you can do going right, but it would be cool as well to have maybe 2-3 different ways to get through it, sending you on divergent level/story paths.

As for speed dominating game play now, there are two ways to look at it. One, it's the thing that still does set it apart. Like an action racer game or something. Sega thinks if they do something to take away from that, it will hurt the game. On the other hand, it is just that fact that makes it an issue. These games (imo) don't have the substance anymore to them they did around the time of SA2. That game had a fairly decent blend of the speed concept and adventure, though SA1 probably did it better. Now trying to somehow make SA1 2D and creative would be an awesome game...

I'm with Shad here, a couple of years ago I decided to play through Sonic 3 a bit, and I went through Hydro City Zone and Marble Garden Zone alone routes I had never seen before, and I've been playing the game for over ten years at that point.

Sure there were no prizes for doing so, but I didn't care, it was still fun finding new ways to go through the levels.

Technically, there were. If you knew where all the hidden nooks and crannies were in Sonic 3, you could easily have most of the Chaos Emeralds by the time you finished Hydrocity, if not all of them. I know on a good day, I'd have all the Emeralds before I finished Carnival Night Act 1. I think that Angel Island by itself had at least four of the Special Stage rings.

And if it wasn't Special Stage rings, you could find shields, one-ups, invincibility, and all kinds of goodies. S3&K really did reward those who took the time to explore.

Hmm, I wonder what it would be like to have a sandbox type, free roaming level to get to the different levels or something like that, like Super Mario 64, in that that sandbox was fun in of itself and had incentive to explore...

You mean like Sonic Jam? Because I whole heartedly agree that would be epic. Although Sonic 2K6 did try that, but it all felt icky. That may have more to do with the fact the whole game felt icky.

Okay. I played Sonic 3 & Knuckles again to get a feel for the old school with the idea of exploration over speed. It didn't help that I know S3&K like the back of my hand, but by the time I reached Hydrocity, I knew that I was wrong.

The level design in that game is unfreakin' believable, and I made sure to stop at all of the Giant Ring points, getting Supes by Marble Garden Act 1.

I'm still replaying all of the old games to weigh in my opinions, but from the looks of things, I have been humbled.

Okay. I played Sonic 3 & Knuckles again to get a feel for the old school with the idea of exploration over speed. It didn't help that I know S3&K like the back of my hand, but by the time I reached Hydrocity, I knew that I was wrong.

The level design in that game is unfreakin' believable, and I made sure to stop at all of the Giant Ring points, getting Supes by Marble Garden Act 1.

I'm still replaying all of the old games to weigh in my opinions, but from the looks of things, I have been humbled.

You can turn Super by Hydrocity 2; that is unless you don't fail in any of them.

Well, I must man up and admit that I'm also probably being a bit too harsh on Rush, too. It's still a fun game. It's not the best Sonic game ever, and I do prefer the originals, but I really can't knock Rush even still. I probably should replay that when I get home... If I can tear myself away from the one-two punch of Kingdom Hearts and Mother 3.

Here's something from left field, would you play it if they made something like this?

I suppose, given that they pull the whole shebang off properly. Although it'd be more impressive if, instead of giving Sonic, Tails and Knuckles separate campaigns, they figured out how to properly branch paths, like in S3&K.

Although honestly that video sucks simply for advertising a product that will never exist, and yet still has the balls to say it's coming out for Wii, 360 and PS3 (despite the release date of "never").