Oh God, they're listening to the fans again. *Le sigh* this'll end well.

Well Sonic 4 was delayed because they were listening to fans and that game didn't turn out horrible.

I know this is a double-edged sword, but Sonic 4 didn't have a chorus of extra characters, which I honestly thought was an improvement as of late. I'm not saying that if a game doesn't add any characters then it's good, but it's something the fans have been whining about, and they listened.

I don't know why, but I'm being optimistic with this news. I guess Sonic 4 just showed me that there is hope.

On the flip side: didn't Knuckles win a "Best Sonic Character" poll from Sega a few years back and precisely %$!$ All has been done with him...

I did think the fans reaction to the whole "Sonic is for kids really" comment from Sega was OTT. Doesn't mean the games should be this bad though.

They dont need to listen to fans. They dont need a stupidly epic tale of friendship, love, betrayal and aliens. They dont need an orchestral soundtrack to accompany every game.

They need to play other platformers, they need to play the old Sonic games, they need to playtest the games, they need to complete a game to an acceptable level before release, they need to develop a visual style that takes cues from the old games and updates them, If they add a playable character they have to make sure that they add something new to the game.

The weird thing is that Sonic Colours seems to be ok. I mean I'm still not a fan of the Rush gameplay style but in terms of everything else.

Yes thank you, getting tired of this let's listen to the fans bit. That way leads to madness...okay I kid.

Identify the core aspects that make a good Sonic game (IMO):

Well designed levels with sections for speeding and clever platforming

Crisp, simple and fun music

Sharply designed levels

Multiple characters, each with their various abilities which allows for further exploration of the levels

No cheap gimmicks

Solid gameplay

And then go from there.

I find it interesting that you bring up all these topics on how the franchise could be made better, because not too long ago, generally your complaint was that you wanted Sega to make a Sonic game that catered to the old school fans, and played like the originals did. So, Sega listens to your demands, and you guys are still coming up with ways that they need to improve. As far as I'm concerned, there will always be something wrong with Sonic games, and awhile ago, I didnt think that things were going to change- for the last 10 years, almost all of the Sonic games that have been released have had some pretty huge flaws in them. Sonic 4 was the first sign of real change, and in my opinion, it was a pretty good game. When I was playing it, I felt like I was back in the good old days of Sonic games. I was back there in Green Hill Zone. Sonic 4 had maybe a few problems with it, but none of them were such a big deal that it would make the overall game so much less enjoyable for me.Yet, Sonic 4 comes out, and here we are- at the same place we were last year, complaining about the same things- and I think we all realize it, because instead of saying "make a game that is like the 1-3 games", you are asking for the exact same thing, but wording it differently.

I find it interesting that you bring up all these topics on how the franchise could be made better, because not too long ago, generally your complaint was that you wanted Sega to make a Sonic game that catered to the old school fans, and played like the originals did. So, Sega listens to your demands, and you guys are still coming up with ways that they need to improve. As far as I'm concerned, there will always be something wrong with Sonic games, and awhile ago, I didnt think that things were going to change- for the last 10 years, almost all of the Sonic games that have been released have had some pretty huge flaws in them. Sonic 4 was the first sign of real change, and in my opinion, it was a pretty good game. When I was playing it, I felt like I was back in the good old days of Sonic games. I was back there in Green Hill Zone. Sonic 4 had maybe a few problems with it, but none of them were such a big deal that it would make the overall game so much less enjoyable for me.Yet, Sonic 4 comes out, and here we are- at the same place we were last year, complaining about the same things- and I think we all realize it, because instead of saying "make a game that is like the 1-3 games", you are asking for the exact same thing, but wording it differently.

No Epi, the problem is that Sonic 4 wasn't what we were asking for. Yes it was a step forward, but anything close to the original games? No, not at all. The physics were too flawed, the level design showing little inspiration and relying on pretty visuals to work rather than fluidity and substance, the music lacklustre and in some cases downright agonizing...

Yes, we admit that S4 was a step in the right direction. But compared to what it could have been - what we were asking for - it still has a very, very long way to go. And it didn't come anywhere close to capturing the spirit and simple fun of the original titles.

Why do people see SEGA release a generic post-SA Sonic platformer, stick the name of Sonic 4 and some recycled graphics at it, and buy into the idea that SEGA is doing what fans want so how can you complain about it? I didn't ask for any of what they did in Sonic 4. Can somebody name some substantive aspect in which Sonic 4 was a return to anything?

Can somebody name some substantive aspect in which Sonic 4 was a return to anything?

Sonic never spoke.

Ok, I will give you that one. 😛 But what about some substantive gameplay aspect?

Haha, yeah sorry I couldn't help myself.

I think Sonic 4 is the best 2D game we've had since the original series, and that's coming from someone who loved all of the Advances and Rushes. It's the closest thematically and conceptually that we've had, but I think the name "Sonic 4" is just lending itself to hatred because people are expecting it to be the best game ever and right the wrongs of what has been a troubled series for a while. The game has its problems, yeah, but I genuinely found it to be the most enjoyable Sonic game I've played in a long while. If this game was Advance 4, or Rush 3, or Sonic DXP*, or any other name apart from Sonic 4, I doubt it'd be lending itself to as much criticism.

When I compare the old titles to the new titles, I think that the old ones had- momentum, instead of just automatic speed, a little bit more emphasis on the platforming, a few parts that were focused on going really fast, but not all of it so as Rush was, and most importantly, exploration, instead of a single path to follow. Sonic 4 HAD these aspects, IMHO.

When I compare the old titles to the new titles, I think that the old ones had- momentum, instead of just automatic speed, a little bit more emphasis on the platforming, a few parts that were focused on going really fast, but not all of it so as Rush was, and most importantly, exploration, instead of a single path to follow. Sonic 4 HAD these aspects, IMHO.

Momentum? Just how the hey do you figure that Sonic 4 has momentum? You leave the ground going fast off a ramp and Sonic immediately comes to a dead halt, falling back to the floor in a straight line. And the moment you try to duck down into a spin from running, you immediately lose virtually all your speed and have to stand up again and start building up once more from crawling pace!

More emphasis on platforming I'll give you, yes, it has that. But this element is spoiled by Sonic's crippled acceleration. In the old games you could hop back and forth from one platform to another really quickly, but in S4 you try to jump across to a platform and you almost don't make it because he's still getting up to speed. And jumping back and forth left to right really quickly, a simple task in the old games, is downright impossible.

'A few parts that focussed on going really fast'? In S4? Where, I must have missed it! The sole part I can think of for that was that one bit in Road of Cards where you're going up and down those 90degree hills, and even that only lasts for a second or two. Where are the huge long ramps like Chemical Plant Zone, Sandopolis or Lava Reef, where you could really open up and burn so fast the screen couldn't even keep up with you?

Yes, the levels had more than one path to follow - namely two. Or perhaps in one or two very rare cases, three. Not a patch on the huge, epic, multi-route levels of Sonic 3 & Knux. How many different ways were there through the Mushroom Hill, or Hydrocity? They even had different routes for different characters, areas where only Knuckles could smash into or Tails could fly up to reach. And what about the length of the levels? Even going absolutely flat out, Carnival Night Zone Act 2 could not be completed in less than 7 minutes, whereas most of the S4 zones take two or three.

I'm not trying to get at you or anything man...if you felt S4 really was that good then that's fine, it's your call and I'm happy for you. I do agree with you to the point that it's much better than most of their recent offerings, a big improvement on Sonic titles of late. But on the point of wether it comes close to the originals as it was ment to do, and wether it was worth the cash they wanted for it, I'm afraid we're gonna have to differ on that one.

I agree with you on some points in that argument, others not so much. Like, for example, I thought there were plenty of high-speed acrobatics balanced out with the platforming, and I didn't really seem to have problems with the physics. My main complaint was that the bosses were done HORRIBLY. I mean, in the first zone, it was difficult because to avoid the ball, I had to attack Eggman, which would bounce me right back into the ball. In the second one, the whole boss arena was still like, loading, and I just jumped up and hit Eggman in the face like a million times in a row and he was just gone before he had a single chance to attack, defend, or react in any way. Then the third boss was an agonazing 30 seconds of platforming and then a cheap death that you only figure out how to avoid after it happens to you, and then you have to go back, do those 30 seconds of platforming that was pretty difficult, survive that trap and then die to the next. I think you get my point.

In contrast, I agree with you 100 percent on the price thing. 15 dollars is way too much for 3 zones. And, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Sega announce that the game was going to be $5? That seemed totally reasonable, since you only got 4 zones. Instead, it was that times 3.

You're right that the acrobatics were high speed, yeah. Above when I talked about high speed I was meaning high speed running/spinning, not jumping. And I'll admit the homing attack was a very nice addition to the 2D environment.

But even the acrobatics area was seriously flawed. It suffered from the same pitfall that the 3D Sonic games fell into, namely that you have to know what's coming up ahead of you on the screen and react to it before it appears. Call me strange if you will, but I really don't like playing a game that forces me to die the first time I play it, just to learn where all the level elements are so that I can then play through them with my eyes closed, and that is the only way to beat the game. I lost count of the number of times I fell down bottemless pits or into dangerous obsticles like spikes, simply because I didn't homing-attack an enemy that hadn't even appeared on the screen yet!

I'm all for the occasional surprise, but to have situations like this repeated over and over is seriously poor level design. Far better to actually let the player see what is coming up ahead of him most of the time, so he can actually react to it, than forcing him to die the first time just so he'll learn the hard way to avoid it the second time.

I seriously wonder if we're talking about the same game, I didn't have any of those kinds of problems... in that case, there's really no need for us to argue about this anymore. *Silently leaves topic*

Not an argument bro, just a spirited discussion 

As I said above, if you didn't experience these problems and found S4 to be a great game, then I'm really happy for you man. We'd have to agree to differ on that point, and I have a feeling you'd be in the minority compared to the wider Sonic fanbase, but we aren't getting at you or anything. If you enjoy it, then by all means go ahead and play it, we'll just wait until SEGA gets their act together before joining you lol

Alright, to be completely honest, I haven't played Sonic 4, and have no interest. I don't think it's a step in the right or wrong direction. I just think it seems like a pointless game, that isn't going to do anything for the Sonic series. By taking it old school, at least, myself, didn't mean it quite so literally. Though I can't speak for other Sonic fans.

I just think it was a huge step backwards. By going old school, I at least meant, take designs, concepts and ideas of Sonic games, and incorporate it into modern gaming, and continue to do great things with it. That's what they did with Sonic Adventure. It had nostalgia in its level designs and ideas, but at the same time was a huge, vast lush, 3D platformer, with many things to do.

Shutting Sonic up also isn't going to solve any problems. It's just gonna take things backwards. Yeah, Sonic not having a voice back in the day worked well, because well, back in the early 90's video game characters generally didn't have voices due to lacking technology. These days, all great video games have stories, dialogue, and cutscenes, giving the game some purpose. Getting rid of cutscenes and dialogue is just gonna make the games boring, because well, these days it's kind of a standard. Just don't make Sonic say dumb %%!*.

And hey, great news, to those who played Sonic colors. They got rid of Jason Griffith, and whoever played Tails' voice. Two major problems in the Sonic series solved. And in fact, the new voice actors are more than decent. They're both really good. The dialogue is innocent and comical, but nothing along the lines of "let's show that creep the super power of teamwork."

I was actually quite please with the dialogue in Sonic Colors. They finally breathed some life into Sonic and Tails giving them voices and personalities that they should have had since they were ever even given voices in Sonic Adventure. THAT, is something I see as a huge step in the right direction.

Sonic Colors in general, isn't my favorite style of gameplay for Sonic. I'm more into the Sonic Adventure style gameplay than this whole Rush/Unleashed stuff. However, I think this is the first game with that style of gameplay that they did well, and made into a legit enjoyable game. While there were a few things I'd change about it, they actually did a lot of things right for the first time in a long time.