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The HUGE problem is the tone. Sonic the Hedgehog is an all ages series.
That's exactly why I applaud them for making it a Shadow Spinoff, rather then a Sonic game. It won't mar Sonic's tone at all. Shadow's part of the Universe has always been very dark and very sinister. Rather then have those aspects pollute the fuzzy, fun loving world of Sonic and pals, they are venting the mirk into it's own little game where only those who are really interested can play.
Which is really my original point. Craig (and ect...), I wasn't saying that you had to like it. It's just that comments such as "this is the apocolypse", and "I hope they lose money on this" are absurd at this juncture. Certainly, all the fears about Shadow replacing Sonic are just as ludicrous, especially when looking at past evidence. Did Knuckles usurp Sonic with Chaotix? Tails with Skypatroll? Hell, Hasbean in Mean Bean Machine? No. It's just an added bonus for fans.
Look, I'll be honest when I say this. Who is the target audience? Perhaps it's me, because I'm really excited about this. As a twenty-something sonic fan, I love the universe, but would welcome a deeper exploration of the darker themes presented in SA2 and Battle. Suddenly this game rolls around, and I can't wait.
There are still a lot of question left unanswered regarding Shadow's life, both explicit, and inferred. As of yet, we don't even know when this adventure takes place plot wise, so there are a lot of possible plot holes that could be retroactively filled in. Perhaps this takes place fifty years ago? Maybe it explains why he was in that tube at the beginning of Heroes. Wouldn't it serve as a great bridge to explain how Shadow got his memories back in time for Battle?
As for the gun, once again I must reiterate, it does seem odd, and a little out of character. However, the following examples are also out of character for their context:
1) Tails DRIVING his airplane to catch up with the president in SA2
2) Knuckles being seemingly ignorant of the Emeralds in SA.
3) Knuckles not caring about the master emerald in SH and SB
4) Sonic giving Knuckles credit and playing toward the team concept in SH.
5) Knuckles working with Sonic for the fun of it in SH.
6) Eggman kidnapping Vanilla in Sonic Advance 2.
7) Shadow letting Team Sonic beat Metal Sonic without his help.
I could go on. Sometimes the sonic games have you doing things strictly for gameplay reasons. I'll also wait to pass judgment until I've heard Sega's explanation for the gun. Perhaps:
1) There are no chaos emeralds in this game, and Shadow must find other means of protection.
2) Perhaps it's the "only" way to harm those alien attackers.
3) It's the Gun that killed Maria, and he wants to use it against the soldiers of GUN.
4) (Crazy Theory) He needs it to battle another Gun based rival, such as Fang the Sniper.
5) He just fells like shooting people.
6) Maybe they realized that a lot of people think Shadow's just a rip-off of Sonic, and are simply trying to give Shadow traits and attacks that Sonic wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.
Who knows. I just think it could be a fun game for what it is, and upcoming information just might make the whole thing sound better.
Since when has Tails not used his own airplane?
~Rico
now that we got the new shadow game, everyones gonna be like
person 1:OMG SHADOW ROXORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111oneoneone
person 2: HES GETING A GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111oneoneoen
person1:OMFG THAT IS SO @#%$ AWESOM!!!!!!!!!11111111111
later after the game is released-
person 1:THAT SHADOW GAME SUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111
person 2: I NO LETS W8 FOR ANOTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also, where does Shadow say that he hates weapons of all kind?
I cant remember?
Also, people said they wanted a Sonic Adventure 3, this looks to be the closest we're going to get, (especially as someone pointed out, the bullet shots look like a backwards 3 and the logo is simmilar to the original SA one) and from it's tone it's continuing on from where SA2 left off (and Heroes as well, but tone wise from SA2)
EDIT: THIS POST IS IRRELEVANT
I'm unimpressed. I'm boycotting this one. Oh, and.... BLAME SAMMY! (maybe)
*impersonation of a fan boy*
yay lets spam sega's emails with complaints about the upcoming shadow game!!!!!
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Also, where does Shadow say that he hates weapons of all kind?
I cant remember?
Throughout Sonic Battle he expresses his hate for weapons, it's his reason for initially wanting to destroy Emerl.
I don't care if he uses guns. I don't care that they're going for the teenage audience now. Power to them and both those. But I already played Devil My Cry and Max Payne. I don't feel the need to do it again with crappier camera angles.
~Rico
Castor don't you curse SEGA.
Their earnings have been well, and in a few years they will be back in the console market. Nintendo is doomed. They will be leaving the hardware market.
I'm blessing them, I don't think Shadow's title will be a blockbuster I think it will enjoy moderate success like Tails Adventure. Unklie Knuckles Chaotix which bombed rather badly.
Late as usual....but what in the world--?!
....o.o I might rent this game when it comes out. The gameplay doesn't look much different from SA2/Sonic Heroes. But still... I've got a rather large dislike for Shadow and I don't like the looks of that gun. >>;
I'll wait till more information comes out till I make my final judgement. Right now I'm kinda.....in shock, so I can't say much. XD;
~Shadowed Spirit Sage
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Throughout Sonic Battle he expresses his hate for weapons, it's his reason for initially wanting to destroy Emerl.
He's not *that* gung-ho about weapons in general, it's more a case of Weapons of Mass Destruction, which both he and Emerl are. He hates more the fact that they were originally intended for good by Professor Gerald, and GUN warped them to be nothing but murderous destroyers.
i hope Sega are happy influencing a young generation by associating guns with a character adopted within a friendly E rated gaming series, as if gun culture isnt bad enough. It's just setting a bad example and if Sega cant think of a better way to take the series in another direction (i.e. more adult) then they are sick and i won't blow the trumpet of any game which does so, even though im a fan of the series from sonic 1
Frankly, I'm with Gale: PSU had better be REALLY good if they're going to whore out Sonic like this.
And Lighthead... we've been split for years. YEARS.
I meant splitting to the point where there are those who no longer feel comfortable expressing their opinions on the forums and just.... well quit.
To Shadowglass, it's not that we fear that Shadow will replace Sonic. It's just that the use of the gun kind of hurts his character. I understand Sega for wanting to try something new, but if they wanted someone to use a gun, use the right character. Eggman would be perfect for weaponry, or what about Fang? Bean and Bark, we don't know much about them, other than Bean uses bombs, and there it is! He would be perfect to use guns. He seems like a weapon-crazy fool. Their character traits are a bit empty, so they be open to have weaponry.
But...if Sega wants to go this way, I hope they do it right. The gameplay should be a little different if he's going to use guns. I'd say it would be more like SADX/Grand Theft auto style, where he has to travel around a world map place to find levels, or something else. That part with him running while shooting seems alright. I hope they expand that part.
Yes, it's a little early to judge it, overexaggertly, so I'll give this game a chance to fix themselves...like for one, redesign the gun!! It's so big it hurts!! Give him two small pistels. I'd see him shooting like Neo.
Well, if it gets to be THAT bad, then I can easily just fall down on them like an iron fist... at least, here.
Seriously. I have no qualms with you if you like this product, nor if you hate it. I only have qualms with you if you direct an attack on the other camp.
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He's not *that* gung-ho about weapons in general, it's more a case of Weapons of Mass Destruction, which both he and Emerl are.
I don't think that's the case. Maria wasn't killed by a "weapon of mass destruction". And the whole WMD thing has become a big buzz phrase in America and the UK that you're probably subconsciously making the connection yourself.
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He hates more the fact that they were originally intended for good by Professor Gerald, and GUN warped them to be nothing but murderous destroyers.
G.U.N. never got their hands on Emerl, it was created as a weapon by an ancient civilisation, Gerald inserted a "heart" into it. It was Gerald that wished Shadow to murder humanity, not G.U.N.
Wow, this thread's getting popular.
I honestly think that Sonic Team could pull this off if they could make the gun concept work, like explainnig why Shadow's using a gun, and why there have been at least three different guns in the screenshots; a pistol, an MP5-esque gun and one that looks kinda lke an uzi (the pics are futher back, about pages 2-4 somewhere). Although, I think the two pistols idea would be better than jutst one.
It might be good for filling in the gaps about Shadow, and help with plotholes... I get the Feeling that Netraptor'll get her hands on this and make it into a great fanfic ^_^
---
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I don't think that's the case. Maria wasn't killed by a "weapon of mass destruction".
Shadow never knew Maria. She was either killed by GUN's raid or by NIDS, it's never clarified which.
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And the whole WMD thing has become a big buzz phrase in America and the UK that you're probably subconsciously making the connection yourself.
Shadow himself uses the phrase "Weapons of war" in Sonic Battle. The entire scene goes thusly:
Shadow: You see, Emerl? This is the fate for weapons of war.
Emerl: I don't understand, Shadow. I'm sad.
Shadow: I know.
The sheer power Shadow controls and contains would classify him as a WMD, and certainly Emerl as well.
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G.U.N. never got their hands on Emerl, it was created as a weapon by an ancient civilisation, Gerald inserted a "heart" into it. It was Gerald that wished Shadow to murder humanity, not G.U.N.
Re-read the journals. Gerald handed over Emerl to GUN to buy some time to continue work on Project Shadow.
I think that it's way too soon to pass judgement. Let's just all wait until it comes out and we can try it, then we can decide for oursevles (each of us personally, not a decision by consensus) whether or not this game is good.
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I'd disagree with that, solely on the basis that Tails' levels were all about strategy (finding the quickest path), flight and speed. His boss battles can either be counted as irrelevant, as they took place when Sonic was there, and therefore, it can be assumed that in the main story, it's JUST Sonic who wastes them, or counted in that he and Sonic co-oped.
Hmm, good point, however I still disagree that he needs a weapon, though I have pondered of what a weapon would be like for him, I'b rather he just used his own two tails.
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Since when has Tails not used his own airplane?
My point was that he was DRIVING it through a hazard filled course, when all logic would have dictated that tailing the president's car by Air would have made the most sense.
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now that we got the new shadow game, everyones gonna be like
person 1:OMG SHADOW ROXORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111oneoneone
person 2: HES GETING A GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111oneoneoenperson1:OMFG THAT IS SO @#%$ AWESOM!!!!!!!!!11111111111
later after the game is released-
person 1:THAT SHADOW GAME SUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111
person 2: I NO LETS W8 FOR ANOTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You see this is the sort of thing that appalls me about this thread. Sure we are entitled to our own opinions, but there is a good deal of bashing, intimating that Shadow fans are brainless goons that just want darkness for the sake of it. Ironically, the few Shadow fans that have posted in this thread have been cautiously optimistic, listing well though out reasons why the game might work. MOST everyone else has just unloaded a lot of useless drivel like "Sega's going out of business!". Now who's the raving fan boy/girl?
At least VCP is trying to debunk the game using well-though out arguments based of the other games. I've repeatedly listed evidence and possibities as to how and why the game might work, but this once thoughtful forum had degraded into a mob mentality. As I've said before, some of us do want the game, and posts like the one above are flat out insulting.
That said, sure this new game seems to have elements of other popular games mixed in, but that is not a reason a it will suck. Even the original Sonic borrowed liberally from the basic "Mario Platformer" Formula, adding unique bits and twists here and there.
Also, I personally fell that Shadow would use a gun if he needed to. Yes, he's opposed to Weapons in general, but we also know that, when truly angered, he is homicidal. Remember him trying to wipe out the whole planet? Remember his "Date to Die for" comment. Remember him planning on killing Emeral before they bonded? We still don't know his true motives in this game...
Lastly, it is still very much debatable weather or not he knew Maria. There is evidence to both effects.
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Thats what annoys me as well, the entire Shadow Fan Boy debate has grown so out of control, personally I dont think that it really exists (Okay it does, but not at that level, and not here anyway) and that it's just grown out of control by people talking about it, like the Sailor phenomenom in the SPA...
I agree whole heartedly. 
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I was going to quote that earlier, but i didnt have the time, thanks, for arguing it out yourself Shadowglass, i didnt haven the time or energy to bother
Always a pleasure, Swifthom.
LMAO
This thread happening was so predictable.
Haven't read abseloutly all of it, but yeah... what can I say apart from the fact that there are a lot of pessimistic extemists who have dismissed something that was merely presented with a small movie. A lot of it I'm sure just stems from a bias disliking of the character anyway. Of which I reckon if you don't like the look of the game, or the prospect of it and if the sight of it disgusts you so much, don't get it.
It's also funny how people just can't or refuse to see through the possibilities as to why the game might work out.
Personally, I thought the gun was an eerie touch. My first thought wasn't 'Wow! OMFG!!! THIS IS SO KEWL! SHADOW GOTZ A GUN... DAMN!'
It was more along the lines of 'Hey, wait... this is rather sinsister.' Why has he got a gun?
It sort of reinforced my believing to the fact that he's really means something this time, what with everything that happened to him. And I thought it was refreshing that SonicTeam were offering a branch off towards a dark genre.
Like it or not, there are a ridiculous number of Shadow fans. Not so much in this forum, but other sites. Something I've certainly noticed on DA is that a Shadow drawing with relative standards compared to a Sonic drawing seems to get more reception. That's just what I have noticed. Not that I'm saying it's evidance that Sonic has a bigger fanbased with Shadow but I found that propspect rather amusing.
In any case, I'm feeling optimistic about this game. Even if a lot of people would dismiss the gun as 'abseloutly ridiculous', perhaps there's a reason. I think if the storyline is thought out and the game is refined in time for its release that it'll be something worthwhile for Shadow fans. It's a bit dumb to make a verdict of the game right now <3
I'd like to have been in that board room when someone stood up and said "Let's give Shadow a gun!" How do they go from Happy Meals to assault rifles in less than one year? 
Last I checked, the only weapon any Sonic character carried was a Piko Piko Hammer that waved hearts. Now we're moving up to assault rifles? I'm sorry, but no words can describe how "WTF?" I am about where they're trying to go with this. I mean, Shadow having a gun, in my mind, is like Wolverine having a gun. They just don't need it.
I really don't even know why I'm worried about this game. After Sonic Heroes and all the hype it received, I've failed to be excited about anything else, from Sonic Advance 3 to this. I guess it just bothers me, the idea that Sonic Team, which once defined the medium, would drop something like this.
And I know I haven't actually played the game yet, so you don't hafta remind me. But if the game is anything like those screenshots, well then, you all just read what I think about it.
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Haven't read abseloutly all of it, but yeah... what can I say apart from the fact that there are a lot of pessimistic extemists who have dismissed something that was merely presented with a small movie. A lot of it I'm sure just stems from a bias disliking of the character anyway. Of which I reckon if you don't like the look of the game, or the prospect of it and if the sight of it disgusts you so much, don't get it.
Well, first off, I like Shadow as a character, and I don't mind him gracing Sonic's adventures (although I would like the mystery behind his revival to be solved). I can't speak for everyone else, but it doesn't matter to me that this game stars Shadow.
Secondly, whether it was a small movie or a playable demo through 90% of the game, it gave off a bad vibe to most people. There's nothing wrong with them feeling pessimistic about it. You said so yourself that you feel optimistic about it, so let the other people say they feel pessimistic about it and why.
Lastly, sorry for the double post. 
He posted when I was posting and I missed his.
I actually like that video. It tells a deep message. That message is "Sonic games used to be cool and fun, but then we decided to screw it all up by making the games dark and angsty."
Gameplay wise, I think that if Sonic Team is going to make some sort of strange, mutant clone of Sonic Heroes/Ratchet and Clank/Jak and Daxter/Devil May Cry, they should at least try to do it right and add a bigger arsenal with less generic looking weapons. Since this game is still early in development, it's not too late for them to add such a feature, but I somehow doubt that they'll do it.
However, it doesn't matter how good the gameplay would be, crap like this does not belong in Sonic games. It's too dark and angsty to be a Sonic game, and it's a far step behind the real Sonic games we've come to know and love.
Really, if they actually wanted to do something like this, they could just release another Tails' Adventure game. It would be a much better concept, and it wouldn't make me throw up all over my computer.
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Shadow never knew Maria. She was either killed by GUN's raid or by NIDS, it's never clarified which.
Shadow remembers spending time with her, and Maria was definitely shot dead.
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Shadow himself uses the phrase "Weapons of war" in Sonic Battle. The entire scene goes thusly:
Shadow: You see, Emerl? This is the fate for weapons of war.
Emerl: I don't understand, Shadow. I'm sad.
Shadow: I know.The sheer power Shadow controls and contains would classify him as a WMD, and certainly Emerl as well.
True, but guns are still weapons of war.
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Re-read the journals. Gerald handed over Emerl to GUN to buy some time to continue work on Project Shadow.
Oh yeah. But it was still created as a weapon before Gerald got his hands on it and G.U.N. never got the chance to do anything particularly malicious with it.
Now, now, now. A few of you are being a bit hasty here.
Tails, the cute little genius, has a gun in his mech during Sonic Adventure 2: Battle, and a lazer sphere shooting hand cannon in Sonic Battle, and everything's fine and dandy. Shadow, the big, bad enigma has one, and it's suddenly terrible and deserves a T rating!? Naaww. Heck, his firing ability seems to be almost identical to Omega's. Jump, shoot twice, land, continue onslaught, yet I saw nothing like this happening when Sonic Heroes came out.
Heck, if you looked over at the gaming academy, I posted a topic about the new E-10+ game rating. If Jak II had to be lowered to that level (not a derogatory term), then surely this will have the same fate? Since guns have been used a few times before, the only reason I see to make this is as such, the fact that the enemies in this game seem to be living beings. (What are they, aliens!?{I don't read it, but didn't Archie have Shadow encounter aliens? Are they any way alike in appearance?})
Some of those levels seem downright interesting. I wonder if those ruins have any good storyline. If there's one thing I learned in the Sonic story, it's that ruins mean a great story. ^_^ Though, I must say, that downhill sand thing looks weird. Shadow looks, well, kinda tall, and it seems that one of his spikes are bent, or something. (To the right)
About the 'aliens,' perhaps they're not aliens at all, and some kind of G.U.N. experiment?
As for it being a hoax, other than a few minor things, I don't see that happening. There's a part that seems to be SA2's White Jungle/Green Forest zone (wasn't that blown up!?), and the aforementioned Sonic Adventure logo, which, correct me if I'm mistaken, was used as an edited hoax before.
While I do agree that Shadow just ominously coming back to life seems a bit pointless from SA2 to SH, I don't see any big deal about him having his own game. Knuckles Chaotix did well, though I'm not sure about Tails Adventures and Skypatrol.
As for Shadow actually running faster than his bullets, the games are all played to scale except for VERY quick instances. You don't see Sonic making sonic booms every time he reaches top speed in the games (except Hyper Sonic), and he's gotta charge to reach light speed. (Light Speed Dash {Attack})
Hero or Villain, you choose? SW:KotOR and Fable's alignment idea has changed gaming forever, it seems. Naw. It says on the Sonic Adventure 2 game box to choose to save the world, or destroy it. Yet, you never get this chance.
~Nytloc Penumbral Lightkeeper, downright giddy, despite what Sonic game it could turn out to be.
Well, I've been studying the screen shots, and you may notice that Shadow has two energy bars. What they are for, I don't know. One is probably for chaos powers, the other, possibly the gun. From the looks of it, the gun could be replacing the "Power" formation of Heroes. It's clear in images that the guns blasts are destroying huge chunks of the environment.
If this is true, then we can all calm down a bit. Clearing a path on the fly sounds like a fairly standard Sonic element. Certainly, even Shadow might use a gun like that. It's not like he's creeping into people's apartments and shooting them as they sleep.
That also intimates that it's not your average gun. A normal revolver wouldn't knock down towers and destroy boulders.
We still wouldn't know why he has the gun for a while. Rather then simply shouting "plot hole" we can attempt to come up with a good reason for him to have it. I would be just as happy if it were quickly alluded to in the opening.
For example:
Rouge: You can't be serious?! You're going after the Army?
Shadow: I must know the truth. Who, what am I?
Rouge: It's too dangerous. Omega and I will come with you.
Shadow: No, I must go alone.
*Rouge hands him Gun*
Rouge: The take this for protection.
Shadow: What would I need this puny thing for?
Rouge: It's a secret government prototype. You're going up against things a lot worse then Eggman.
*Shadow shrugs and dashes off*
And once again for people who still say that Guns don't belong in a Sonic game, there have been guns in Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and Knuckles, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes. Possible more that I am forgetting. The key is that SONIC doesn't use them, and if you'll notic, Sega has made a very consious decision for this to be a SHADOW game. This isn't ment to be the next Sonic game. It's a Sonic-spinoff.
Not that this is relevant but I'm a girl, not a guy XD...
Okay, granted it doesn't matter to you, but I find it 'unfound' that other people are getting worked up about the fact that he's staring in his own game (assuming this isn't a hoax).
I really think the demo was in it's early stages. And did it give off a bad vibe to most people in general or most people here? From things I have read so far, granted it wasn't the whole net, there seems to be a balance of thoughts. Interestingly enough, I've also read a lot of people saying they dislike the gun idea and the game itself as an idea, but they're going to get it anyway to see what it's like. As long as it sells, that's all SonicTeam are going to worry about... right?
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However, it doesn't matter how good the gameplay would be, crap like this does not belong in Sonic games. It's too dark and angsty to be a Sonic game, and it's a far step behind the real Sonic games we've come to know and love.
I can't help but wonder if people felt that when the Sonic Adventure games took over the classics. (EDIT: The 'step beyond the real Sonic games we've come to know and love'... not the big about the angst part >.>; ) I think some people are reluctant to take change sometimes.
Would it really make people feel a lot better though if this game was handed over to another company to release to protect 'Sonic Team's' pure name?
I don't really know why people are getting worked up over the gun. What's the difference between playing Shadow with a gun, or James Pond or Ratchet and Clank even? I'm willing to stand corrected in that I really think it's not such a big deal. If people are worried it's going to corrupt young kids then maybe they should be censoring SO many other things out there to 'shelter' the young ones.
Perhaps people feel SonicTeam have set themselves up for 'Goody goody' games?
I have to admit when I saw the trailer the first time I was like "What the.... Shadow THE Ultimate Lifeform with a GUN? This must be a hoax! There's no way!" but when I noticed this was a real game in development, I was really shocked and not fond of the CONCEPT of Shadow using a gun as a weapon (whatever happened to his green chaos emerald from Sonic Heroes and Sa2? What about Chaos Spear and Chaos Control?).
Being a Shadow fan, I watched the trailer over and over and I thought that hopefully the game won't be so bad. As mentionned several times, there must be a good explanation as to why Shadow is using a gun. I'm slowly getting used to the concept now.... once it comes out, I'll buy the game and give it a try, mainly for the storyline (Hey I wanna know the truth about Shadow as much as some people). =)
Never judge a game by it's trailer! (Especially when the trailer doesnt really show the final product).
Omega: Rouge? Why did you not use this weaponry against the Eggman?
Rouge: ~plot hole~
The first thing I noticed about the trailer was that there were NO FREAKIN' ROBO-SUIT OR EMERALD-GRABBING LEVELS TO BE SEEN! Nothing but Shadow, blazing, racing, blasting, and bouncing all over. Hey, Sega even ommited clips of the Knuckles and Robotnik levels from the Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 videos in the trailer. Whether this game measures up to the Genesis Sonics, I can't tell, but it seems to focus all on speed, and I think that alone will make this the best 3-D Sonic yet.
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Omega: Rouge? Why did you not use this weaponry against the Eggman?
Rouge: ~plot hole~
Did I say that dialogue would come directly after Heros? Rouge is a master thief, and may have nicked it afterward. Also, I highly doubt that Eggman is the villain this time around.
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Rouge: You can't be serious?! You're going after the Army?
Shadow: I must know the truth. Who, what am I?
...etc, yadda yadda
Rouge: It's a secret government prototype. You're going up against things a lot worse then Eggman.
*Shadow shrugs and dashes off*
:'(
As for guns in the Sonic series, yes - this is technically true. But these were fantasy weapons - Laser guns, rocket launchers and cutesy cannons. But this, these are models of real guns, pistols, sub automatic machine guns - not comical and fictional weaponry that causes things to explode in a puff of smoke, but based on real weaponry that punches holes in flesh - these are things that are horribly out of place in a Sonic/Sonic derived game. It just looks cheap and nasty and well - tacked on in a very stupid 'let's appeal to the current gun-toting smack my @#%$ up generation' kind of way.
With all due respect Spontaneous, you are wrong.
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But these were fantasy weapons - Laser guns, rocket launchers and cutesy cannons.
Sonic 2: I believe there were chicken robot stylized gattling guns at Sonic.
Soinc Adventure: Cops fired REAL guns at Chaos. You can see the bullets fall to the ground afterwards.
Sonic Adventure 2: Not only does GUN utilize repeating guns that fire real bullets, but we know for a fact that Maria Robotnik was shot to death. The sound accompanying the act was clearly created by a realistic gun.
Sonic Heros: Omega uses rather realistic bullets during some of his attacks. He obviously has some built in guns other then "Lasers".
So guns are not a foreign concept to the Sonic world. What's more, if Team Dark fired "Real Bullets" why can't a Solo Shadow fire them as well.
And I'll state once more, it's obviously more then your average gun.
(As for the dialogue, I simply meant that a most basic nod to him having it in the first place would satisfy me. I should hope that the game wouldn't open with him taking pot shots in the park for no reason)
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As for guns in the Sonic series, yes - this is technically true. But these were fantasy weapons - Laser guns, rocket launchers and cutesy cannons. But this, these are models of real guns, pistols, sub automatic machine guns - not comical and fictional weaponry that causes things to explode in a puff of smoke, but based on real weaponry that punches holes in flesh - these are things that are horribly out of place in a Sonic/Sonic derived game. It just looks cheap and nasty and well - tacked on in a very stupid 'let's appeal to the current gun-toting smack my @#%$ up generation' kind of way.
Agreed. And no matter how they explain it, it still doesn't change the fact that Shadow looks ridiculous running around with a gun, especially a realistic one.
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Sonic 2: I believe there were chicken robot stylized gattling guns at Sonic.
Soinc Adventure: Cops fired REAL guns at Chaos. You can see the bullets fall to the ground afterwards.
Sonic Adventure 2: Not only does GUN utilize repeating guns that fire real bullets, but we know for a fact that Maria Robotnik was shot to death. The sound accompanying the act was clearly created by a realistic gun.
Sonic Heros: Omega uses rather realistic bullets during some of his attacks. He obviously has some built in guns other then "Lasers".
The Sonic 2 robots fired eggs. It made sense for the police force to have guns and they were non-playable and only appeared in a cut-scene. It makes sense for G.U.N. troups to have real guns, they were non-playable, we never actually saw them and Maria (who we had not known prior to her death) was shot off screen. All of the guns on the robots and such looked like fantasy weapons and were portrayed as such, it also made sense for robots and airships to have such weaponry. They weren't being used as gratuitous fashion accessories in an attempt to market the game at an audience the series was never designed for.
...Good god. Stop this now SEGA, just...stop it.
I'll probably make a more detailed criticism of this once my dail-up connection gets this trailer downloaded.
It just doesn't make sense why they'd make a Shadow spinoff, not to mention one with guns, a probable teen rating, going against everything Sonic the Hedgehog, and possibly SEGA have done before. I know Shadow has a huge fanbase, but...It really doesn't add up the way I look at it...
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It just doesn't make sense why they'd make a Shadow spinoff
Because many people, myself included, wanted one.
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not to mention one with guns,
We shall see won't we? Anyways, it was a gun that took Maria away from him. They aren't a foreign concept to him.
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a probable teen rating,
As long as he doesn't kill a living being (as we have yet to see any evidence of of it), there will be no problem.
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going against everything Sonic the Hedgehog
Which is why he's probably not in this game.
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I know Shadow has a huge fanbase,
Yes, he does.
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It really doesn't add up the way I look at it
Look at it like this: Lots of Shadow Fans = A, Lots of Sonic Fans that complain heroes was either too light of plot, or "too kiddy" = B.
A+B= Target audience willing to by a darker, Shadow based game.
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They weren't being used as gratuitous fashion accessories in an attempt to market the game at an audience the series was never designed for.
But that audience wants it, and many of you people that dislike the game hate Shadow anyway. So I ask you this: Why not have Shadow go his own way? This is not Sonic Adventure 3, or a direct sequel to Sonic Advance. It's his own side story. If you don't like it, and refuse to play it based on your own prejudices, that's fine. If Shadow already represented things best left out of the "Cutesey" Sonic world, why not let the character live on in his own series?
Some of us want more Shadow, and we are getting it. Best of all, we are getting it in our own franchise that won't "harm" the original. Is that so bad?
Shadow is a Sonic character. Even if a Shadow franchise is built up (which I sincerely doubt) it'd still be derived from the Sonic franchise, an all ages franchise. He'd still be in the "Sonic World" and it would still be heavily identified as a Sonic spinoff. The beginning of the trailer was all about Shadow being a spinoff of the Sonic franchise, anyone who recognises Sonic the Hedgehog would be able to realise that there's a connection with one glance at Shadow the Hedgehog.
I do not object to a Shadow game, I object to the way the image of the character and series is being handled for this game.
By your reasoning it would also be wise for Cartoon Network to make a Powerpuff Girls spinoff Buttercup the Crack Whore.
Ok, I remember seeing that trailer, it didn't fully download there so I went to GS and watched a bit of it, but I'm not sure if I remember it well, but I'll try to give my impressions of it so far...
Hmm, I don't know what to say. I'm not much of a fan of Shadow (Partially because he's a new character) but this seems like a decent concept as long as they pull it off well. (Which isn't likely to happen...) I don't know how they'll be able to make us aim the gun and run at the same time (Perhaps it will be almost done Gamma-style with the exception of the laser lock on and the inclusion of the Sonic Heroes style wall jump and homing attack and grinding, ect...?) but maybe we'll have to wait for the next E3 to know more on that...
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We shall see won't we? Anyways, it was a gun that took Maria away from him. They aren't a foreign concept to him.
But he doesn't *need* guns to attack. He can do it perfectly well on his own.
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I do not object to a Shadow game, I object to the way the image of the character and series is being handled for this game.
You mean Shadow, the hedgehog who blew up an entire prison complex, possibly killing tens, if not hundreds? You mean Shadow, who was perfectly happy to leave his team-mate to die in the blast except for the fact she had the three things he needed to blow up the moon, never mind the planet?
You mean Shadow, the hedgehog who on his encounter with Sonic in Heroes, immediately tried to kill him and makes frequent reference to killing Sonic, never mind the rest of the planet?
Yeah, Shadow's G-rated, isn't he?
Wonderful. =D
If I was drinking juice I would've spat it up at the choice of co-director.
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I can't help but wonder if people felt that when the Sonic Adventure games took over the classics. (EDIT: The 'step beyond the real Sonic games we've come to know and love'... not the big about the angst part >.>; )
What was so different about the Adventure games from the classics?
Style-wise, I didn't see much difference. Gameplay-wise, I didn't like fishing or shooting in either game, but I'll admit that Gamma was tolerable for me on the shooting-side. I also hated the "choose a side" aspect of Adventure 2 versus the "choose a character" one. Other than that stuff, I can't think of anything majorly different.
I haven't watched the trailer and I'm not going to as the moment I heard "shooter" I lost interest.
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You mean Shadow, the hedgehog who blew up an entire prison complex, possibly killing tens, if not hundreds? You mean Shadow, who was perfectly happy to leave his team-mate to die in the blast except for the fact she had the three things he needed to blow up the moon, never mind the planet?
You mean Shadow, the hedgehog who on his encounter with Sonic in Heroes, immediately tried to kill him and makes frequent reference to killing Sonic, never mind the rest of the planet?
Yeah, Shadow's G-rated, isn't he?
Yes, because whether or not something is "G-rated" depends on presentation, not the subject matter.
I guess when it comes down to it, the reason this argument exists is because of how fandom works. If you were there in the beginning, grew up and played Sonic 1 and absorbed all of the cutesy merchandise and the animals and fantastical surroundings then thats what defined you as a fan. For people like that, SA1's sudden human city was quite a jolt and SA2 even more so. Heroes however depicted a return to 'roots', and even though it was buggy as hell and so rushed, it looked promising in that many took it as a 'transitionary game'. That the next game was going to take all this on board and finally realise a well polished Sonic game in 3d.
However, those fans have just been shot in the face quite literally by a game with so little original games design behind its concept and so....removed from what the Sonic series started out as that its actually quite painful. To add insult to injury they SHOW CLIPS of ALL THE GAMES WE ENJOYED UP TO THIS POINT! Putting classics such as Sonic CD and then showing bullet holes appear in them is just....a metaphor for what it really is!
However of course, us ancient old crones that grew up with Sonic when he started aren't the only fans anymore. Theres the Sonic Adventure generation, when Sonic got 're-invented'. And with that comes the new characters, such as Shadow. Yes, it must be great that a character you like and are intrigued by has his own breathing space and exclusive plot. But imagine if this game was a really good one focussing on what Shadow is already, not tacking on what is so obviously a misplaced gimmick of guns. Shadow doesnt need to use guns. He's THE ULTIMATE LIFEFORM supposedly. If he was MORE ULTIMATE WITH A GUN, then he would have been created with a gun-arm! But he wasn't! He utilises the power of the chaos emeralds as 'the ultimate power'. He doesnt cradle a desert eagle and say "it all starts with this....a generic gun of ultimate power!"
You can argue the point that maybe months of polish will turn this game around, but the fundamental game design behind it is flawed, clumsy, and based on a now 7 year old game engine thats really REALLY showing its age.
Also, like it or not, but graphics really are a massive selling point. Heroes just about got away with some really standard graphics as it had vibrantly coloured levels and locations you won't find in other games. This game doesnt have that in its rosta. The ONLY way this game is standing out if at all is "Oh its Sonic's evil twin with a gun!". Thats it, thats the broken down everyman in the street analysis.
But things have moved on I guess since Sonic first did a loop the loop in Green Hill Zone. No more Ohshima design, no more level design from the guy that hopped ship to Naughty Dog, and hell, no more Naka as competent programmer. This is Sonic passed onto a 'new generation', and if this is what they come up with when left to their own devices?
Unless Sonic DS is amazing, theres still another GC Sonic to be announced or even a incredible new Sonic game at the next generations launch, Sega really might be screwed if their beloved blue-cash-hog's name is mud and doesnt sell anymore.
Look. I'm not too concerned with the basic premise of Shadow having a gun or how lame the plot's going to be. I'm actually very concerned about gameplay.
See, Sonic had always been about getting from point A to B as quickly as possible in a smooth, streamlined, constantly-flowing method. There wasn't any such thing as forced stopping, and if there was, usually only took a splitsecond to start moving again in the proper direction. Even that wasn't always that common; more often they'd use ramps and curves to change your direction without changing your speed. If they DID change your speed, then usually it was easy enough to keep moving at a fair pace, and it wouldn't be too long before you could run again.
Then Heroes came. To complete a level, you had to constantly STOP, THINK as to what you wanted, SWITCH to the appropriate character (which often wasn't very reliable; switching to the wrong character abound), and THEN you could act upon it. This added a constant one, two, maybe three-second delay in the action, and to make matters worse, some of these other characters were slow as all heck. Making matters worse, more often than not the level included several points where you just couldn't go on until you hunted down and maimed every last robot. Any sense of flow that was in the game had more or less been obliterated.
My main greivance is that Shadow the Hedgehog doesn't look to improve on that very much. Now, thank God you don't have to SWITCH, so there is SOME improvement, but you still have to STOP and SHOOT the enemies when it'd be so much more smooth to just run by or attack them with your Homing Attack. The flow has been remedied slightly, but it's nowhere near back.
And there is the dillema. I've found the games that players dislike the most in the Sonic series generally have very, very bad flow. 3D Blast: Flickies' Island? You had to hunt down five robots and kill them before you'd be allowed to move on, as opposed to just moving on. Shuffle? What "flow" does a board game have, particularly one hampered by long load times and excessively tough AI? Adventure 2? ...er, actually that one I'm not so sure about, since I found flow in it, but I guess the mechs were too clunky to flow as well as they could, and hunting was just too annoying to flow well. Advance 2? It attempts flow, but it's hard to flow when level design is throwing you into spikes constantly, expecting you to anticipate them coming a split-second before you hit.
Another problem is the control scheme. Sonic Team <3s the B button. It <3s the B button too much. It's been trying to jam Spin Dash, shoot, bounce, Light Dash, somersault, magic hands, picking things up, and making a ham sandwich all onto the same B button. It's overkill. It's hard to use. You do the wrong move when you want to do something else entirely. This might have been fixed, but it's not entirely likely.
Graphics... eh, I want to say that this shouldn't matter, but yeesh, Shadow's gun is visibly clipping the floor in that opening shot. It's like they're not even trying. The levels themselves aren't TOO shabby, but you could add a whole lot more extra details to it. I also would like to know what's up with the camera this time; I haven't had TOO much problems with it, but others have, and it hasn't been getting enough attention. Is it fixed this time?
Sound: I usually like Sonic music, but this was unmemorable at best. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention. I dunno.
I'll admit, some of these I'm assuming for, and assuming makes an a- ...well, you know. But, they're not exactly bad assumptions to make, since Sonic Team has shown signs of getting lazy. Liscensing their franchises off to other developers (who, IMO, have a better grasp of what makes a good Sonic game than they themselves do). Not even bothering to update their games outside of an improved (and as of such woefully unstable) framerate and a few extra missions, yet being so daring as to call it a "Director's Cut". To rerelease a fairly new compilation of games, and not even bother adding in all the games to it (and not even choosing the better of the bunch out of the few they DID add; Sonic Blast prolly shouldn't have been in Mega Collection Plus over Triple Trouble or Tails Adventures). To not fix a bad camera that's been around for six years, so that you can control every aspect of it like the personally far superior camera in Super Mario Sunshine or The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. How can these things make the cut when there are so many problems with them?...
So it's really not a big deal about Shadow having a silly premise. Certainly, that plays a factor, but that's not the big issue. The big issue is that there are major problems with the gameplay, and the video is hinting at nothing really being changed.
And yes, I've always been a big Sonic Team proponent... but I'm having second thoughts. I don't want to put the blame on Sega as a whole, though. It's not Yu Suzuki's fault Yuji Naka doesn't pay enough attention to what he's letting through, or that Takeshi Iizuka has been directing games that are so problematic; Suzuki isn't even PART of Sonic Team, why should he take the blame too?
Could we consider Iizuka the Uwe Boll of gaming? Maybe, maybe not. Probably way too harsh, but it's the same kind of thing: creating products with well-known and well-liked franchises that are generally accepted to be not-so-hot (or in Boll's case, utter crap; in some people's minds, Iizuka's case too), whilst thinking that they're doing us a service.
*sigh* If only I knew how to work/actually had the Source SDK...
And to conclude, if you want to look forward, please, do! Go ahead, openly admit it. If somebody want to flame your rear end for actually wanting to like it, it won't go unnoticed. I just feel very pessimistic about it. But hey, as a lot of people learned with Heroes, better to look down on something and be surprised that it's not all that bad than to be overly optimistic and find out it's not all that fun (well, in their opinion).
Haa, ha, ha, ha, ha, PSX, I aplaude you...or I would if I had an applauding smiley ^_^;...no, wait I found one, 
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