Adventure 2 was a good way to end the series, even if they never intended to. I think the storyline jumped the shark with Heroes (Which should have been a back to basics in terms of storyline). Bringing back Shadow with no explaination other than Rouge finding him and then explaining everything poorly in Shadow's very own game. Also some of the storyline rumours from Sonic the Hedgehog 2K6 are cringeworthy to say the least.

Gameplay wise it's different. In Heroes and Shadow, they try something new and it doesn't work through a combination of glitches, bad level design, bad controls and general bad things that lead the game down the tubes. But the Advance/Rush/Battle Series has been alright if not spectacular. Wild Fire looks interesting, Sonic 2k6 could be great and Rivals could be boring but still technically sound.

Either Sonic Adventure or Sonic Adventure 2. The series just never found its footing in the 3D world, and this is when their production values started to rapidly decline.

Bizarrely enough, there was all that leaping around with Killer Whales in SA1.

(Mind you, Sonic Advace 3 and Rush would appear to suggest they're not out of ideas yet)

i personally thought that it could've ended with SA2 as well. it wasn't until Heroes when they started mucking everything up with Shadow's backstory (which i thought was fairly nicely explained with SA2. they should've left it there.)

Heroes' three man system wasn't fun at all. and riders was even worse. (of course riders' plot sucked IMO) never tried shadow, nor do i want to.

as far as plot goes, if you took out shadow from heroes, and added more cutscenes with the real plot (metal sonic not robotnik tries to take over the world again.) it would have had a fairly decent plot.

but none of the games had quite the impact story wise as SA1 and SA2 did.

I would say yes just because the good post-SA2 games are outsourced.

Heck I thought Sonic peaked in the Genesis days. Guess not, i'm surprised to see people say SA2 was the last "high point" game in the series. But yea I guess since SA2 the games have been rather lackluster(not including the advances and Rush).

I rank SA1&2 close enough to S3 and {individually} K for them not to be as much of a slouch to be considered off-peak; this is because I don't include S3&K in rankings. It may be a split game, but the size and amount of resources spent on it are about the same as two full games.

Sonic Adventure 2 was the last really good "big" Sonic game, I think. Heroes' gameplay wasn't very fun, and the mind-numbingly dull plot didn't help. Shadow was an attempt at making an edgy game, and while succeeding in that respect, failed in making the game any fun to play. As for "small" Sonic games, I found the Advance games to be a great attempt at bringing back classic Sonic, and Rush was just plain fun. Sonic '06 looks to easily be an improvement over Heroes and Shadow, but we'll just have to wait and see.

I think the games would be much better if they'd quit cramming so many characters into every game. I mean, did they really need to cram Rouge, Omega, Espio, Charmy, Vector, Amy, Cream...almost every Sonic character in exsistence since Adventure into Shadow?

And now it seems they're ruining the personalities of some characters. For example, Knuckles used to be Mr. Cool Tough Guy; now he's just a brainless hothead who's only good for comic relief. Amy used to just be an annoying pest; now she's a psychotic annoying pest whose obsession with Sonic is getting VERY old. Those are the two biggest ones, in my opinion.

All in all, I think Sonic Team has just lost their focus. They don't care about making a good game as much as they do coming up with lame gimmicks or throwing characters into games when they don't have to. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

I'd actually place the shark-jumping around Sonic Advance, which I found to be very satisfactory, even if others didn't. The sequel was worse, the next sequel was okay, and Rush was fairly good, but made it apparent that nobody really knows how to make Sonic games like the old ones anymore (please note: Rush is, on average, much, much faster than anything on the Genesis or Sega CD, and isn't as platform-y because of it, though the bosses were great).

While I don't think the series is at all complete and utter garbage since at any point in its entirety, I usually wouldn't consider even going into a topic such as this, but, I guess I'll give it a go.

In short, Sonic Adventure is the peak of the entire series as of yet. I have high hopes for Next-Gen, and would not be surprised in the least if the shark gained a new fin. 😛

I'd rate the series post-Adventure as a bunch of little ups and downs. Though they were nothing special, I managed to play through Advance 2 and Shadow. Rush and Advance 3 were a step in the right direction, and I THOROUGHLY enjoyed Heroes for all that it was worth. I saw absolutely nothing wrong with its coding, level design, or anything.

~Nytloc Penumbral Lightkeeper

I don't think the shark has been jumped. Despite the greatly bad down-points the series has had, Sonic games aren't all awful. Rush is a perfect example. It's a recent game that was satisfying to play. Since three new games are in the works that the developers are determined to make into good games, I don't see a reason to worry just yet.

I'd say it's in a slump, rather then having jumped the shark completely. The first games were of course great, whilst the recent endeavours have all been less then stellar.

Call me an optimist or whatever, but I hope that the series is rather in a slump and will improve, rather then stay pitifully bad until its end.

Okay, for those of you who think the shark hasn't yet been jumped, when do you think the shark leaping will come?

1) Sometime in the next generation
2) Not for a long time
3) Never

I don't know if games series can actually jump the shark really.
They just get more and more technically perfect.
Take the Gran Turismo series. (Its the easiest one to think of)
Gran Turismo had amazing graphics and handling for the PSone.
Seeing as they couldn't pump any more out of the PSone in terms of graphics they just added more to the game for Gran Turismo 2.
Gran Tursimo 3 and it had amazing graphics and handling.
Then the difficult game came along Gran Tursimo: Concept. It was based on the Tokoyo Concept Cars (Remember the Toyota Pod? It was like a Chao you could drive).
Then Gran Turismo 4 came along and improved the handling and graphics from GT3 and more cars etc.

I knew I should have had a picture of kitties next to that wall of text...

Like I said before. Storyline has fell into the shark's jaws a long time ago. Wild Fire and Sonic 2006 might actually put the games back on track.

I'd say it was Sonic Adventure 2. They divided up the gameplay too much. People were complaing of Knuckles easter egg hunts in the last game, and they made it more tenacious in the sequel. They need to stick to the more traditional 2-D fast Sonic style of gameplay. I'd say Sonic Rush is the best example of that. If not, at least give the emphasis on speed and better camera placement. Wildfire is a good example of that. (and YES, I have played it at E3) If not Sonic Adventure 2, then definitely Shadow the Hedgehog.

I don't think it has, and I don't think it ever will. Sonic Heroes, wasn't the best game, but it was playable, although the special stages stunk, but after you got all the Chaos emeralds, replay the stories through, it is quite fun. The focus on Heroes was more the level's feel, Some parts were anoying, but the games overall was ok. Shadow was fun. I loved getting the multiple stories. Riders is just a racing game, that is very difficult. i guess if you don't really like racing, you should probably just skip that game. But I think Riders shouldn't count as it is just a racing game, not really part of the main series. Ther are really just two games, that are ok, but not super good. I don't think that shoudl mean the Sonic series has jumped shark.

I don't really see the series as 'jumping the shark.' The series seems to fluctuate. I think it hit it's highest peak with Sonic 3/Knuckles, and when downhill at a severe angle after that. Saturn wasn't kind to Sonic.

That said, I think the series peaked again with SA/SA2 on Dreamcast. Not as high of a peak, mind you, but a decent-sized one. It's gone severely downhill again, but there's hope it could peak again (there's also the chance it might turn into another MegaMan, with six-thousand crap games released every year).

But consider this as well... During the pre-SA days (shall we consider it Sonic's Old Testament?) there were four Genesis stand-outs (five, counting Blast, but I tend not to) and then Sonic CD. How many other ABSOULUTELY TERRIBLE Sonic games were there? Too many for me to count off the top of my head. This "New Testament" Sonic era hasn't had as many misses, and they haven't been as bad. The Advance games weren't terrible, after all, Heroes was mediocre (I still sold it), and we've had some minor hits. Sonic team might have crucified themselves with Shadow the Hedgehog, and maybe this next slew of games won't help much, but this is the 'New Testament'... maybe they can rise from the grave?

Here's hoping.
-Jake

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I don't really see the series as 'jumping the shark.' The series seems to fluctuate. I think it hit it's highest peak with Sonic 3/Knuckles, and when downhill at a severe angle after that. Saturn wasn't kind to Sonic.

That said, I think the series peaked again with SA/SA2 on Dreamcast. Not as high of a peak, mind you, but a decent-sized one.

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Isn't this a case of "jumping the shark" and briefly "jumping back"?

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But consider this as well... During the pre-SA days (shall we consider it Sonic's Old Testament?) there were four Genesis stand-outs (five, counting Blast, but I tend not to) and then Sonic CD. How many other ABSOULUTELY TERRIBLE Sonic games were there? Too many for me to count off the top of my head. This "New Testament" Sonic era hasn't had as many misses, and they haven't been as bad. The Advance games weren't terrible, after all, Heroes was mediocre (I still sold it), and we've had some minor hits. Sonic team might have crucified themselves with Shadow the Hedgehog, and maybe this next slew of games won't help much, but this is the 'New Testament'... maybe they can rise from the grave?

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However, it is argueable that there hasn't been any game in the "NT of Sonic" that is around the same quality as the top games of the "OT of Sonic". In many people top 100 video games of all time lists, if a Sonic game is mentioned it would most likely to be from the 1991-1994 golden age period than from any other year.

Even though SA1 was an admirable effort in placing a true Sonic platformer in the 3rd dimension and/or SA2 may have improve on some aspects to the "Speed-based" gameplay for some people, it is debatable to question have both Sonic Adventure games aged greatly as some 3D platformers during the 1996-2001 years when the genre was still fairly popular. I mean Super Mario 64 despite being 10 years old is still generally loved from the gaming public while SA1 recieves mixed reactions to this day.

No I don't think sonic jumped the shark, and I couldn't say when he will, its up to sonic team to decide this. =/

Good point, Ashide. Aside from on a personal level (I personally was in love with the two 'Adventures'), I have no way of telling whether or not the games have or will stand the test of time.

I suppose my only question now would be this: would 'jumping the shark' imply that the series would henceforth spiral downward with little to no recovery? If so, I'd have to say that the series hasn't 'jumped the shark' by that definition, as SA was certainly a notable spike after that post-S&K dry period.

Otherwise, I'd say you're totally right. The series has not and likely never will rise above the glory of '91-'94.

-Jake

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I suppose my only question now would be this: would 'jumping the shark' imply that the series would henceforth spiral downward with little to no recovery? If so, I'd have to say that the series hasn't 'jumped the shark' by that definition, as SA was certainly a notable spike after that post-S&K dry period.

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I honesty say the release of at least the first SA game was a case of a small "Jumping Back" meaning the series recieved another high point of the franchise after some dismal years. I also consider that game a case of "Jumping the Shark" too since I haven't really experienced a Sonic game ever since that gave me nearly the same wonder when I booted up SA1 for the first time on my DC. I mean SA1 revived my love for the franchise--though nowadays I wonder if it was just a fluke. =/

Just for the record, "Shark Leaping" is basically another term for "peaking." So there can be up and down after the shark has been leaped, but basically, the question is, do you think the Sonic Series has reached its high point, or do you think there will be a higher point later?

In that case, I totally agree with Ashide; Sonic reached his peak a long, long time ago. Maybe there are still a few tricks in Sonic's bag, but I doubt they will ever match the old Genesis games.

-Jake

I think it is still making good games, so I don't think it has peaked yet. it will probably peak around the Wii.

Either you have missed the high point of the Sonic franchise (the early 90's) or you have some...interesting set of standards for games.

As far as the main console platformers are concerned, there is a definate drop in technical quality from Sonic 3 & Knuckles to say Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog.

Perhaps we should consider that younger gamers would have different opinions? To them, those Genesis masterpieces would seem dated and lacking in many essential features. And boss battles right at the end of a level? How inconvenient is that!

We grew up with Genesis Sonic. I'm not saying they aren't better games, but they are rated on a different standard.

Just playing the devil's advocate, here.
-Jake

Umm, jumping the shark is not PEAKING, it's hitting the point where everything is so stupid, out of character and bull that it's beyond saving. Happy Days didn't PEAK with Fonzy jumping the sharks, it DIED.

Thusly, Sonic has been jumping little sharks since Xtreme, slowly losing little pieces of it's armour and making the franchise weaker. The final straw was Shadow. Shadow broke the camel's back. Shadow is the equivalent of learning the Stormtroopers are all the same Australian guy. Shadow is the last 20 minutes of AI. Shadow is the death of Sonic.

I've not bought a single Sonic game since. Though I trust DIMPS, so the next DS title I'll get.n Though it's clear that they don't make enough profit for Sega to bother. Hence why we have no plans for the future.

The Case of Sonic Team Vs. Fanbase

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, distinguished guests, honorable judge... I would like to begin by getting straight to the heart of the matter. We have with us here today in this courtroom a one Mr. Bayfield, who up until recently enjoyed Mr. Team's fine videogaming products. That is, until one fateful day when Mr. Team's newest production hit retail.

Now, point out on the Tails Doll where Shadow The Hedgehog molested you, Mr. Bayfield."

**a myriad of gasps and whispers fill the room**

"... Good Lord. That will be all, Mr. Bayfield. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please keep in mind that Mr. Bayfield is not the only one who's come forth about the transgressions made before them by this "product". Nay, the list of names, if one were to have them written up, would undoubtedbly extend from my hands, down my leg, across the room and out the door."

"Jury, have you reached a verdict?"

"We have your Honor. We, the Jury, find the defendant Sonic Team GUILTY of first degree character assassination and attempted mind rape of their loyal fanbase."

**bang of gavel**

"Mr. Team, I hereby sentence you to 10 years of hard programming. Get it right, this time."

Actually, according to www.jumptheshark.com , "It's a moment. The defining moment. The moment you know that your favorite TV show (or other form of entertainment) has reached it's peak. The point where you know from there on, it's all downhill. Some people call it peaking. We call it "jumping the shark."

That's a misleading definition. It's literally the point where the show goes downhill. One can interpret that it was at it's highest before going downhill, but that's a poor way to judge jumping the shark.

www.urbandictionary.com/d...+the+shark

If you note there the first definition states it the way you say, however uses "lowest point of the show"

How, pray tell, can something get worse than lowest?

Jumping definately means the point where all hope is lost and it's gone to the dogs.

To define it as a peak almost makes jumping the shark sound like a good thing.

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To them, those Genesis masterpieces would seem dated and lacking in many essential features.

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Would those essential features be unfavorable bugs and glitches?

You know, it's kinda true.. I've played those games and loved them, I've taught my little brother to play them and he loved them.
But most of the people at my school would just say "Dude, retro." and prefer to play the new-gen games. And gameplay is not important either, what they want is awesome graphics. And blood and gore and all that "mature" @#%$.

I've been a fan since Sonic Adventure 2 battle, and I like pretty much everything Sonic related. At first I didn't like Heroes that much, but I didn't really care, since I collect games anyways. Lately I've started playing it again, and it is really fun. I just keep playing it from start to finish. I've always liked Shadow the Hedgehog, that is a great game. Both me and my friend loved it. I think most people expect a instant classic, but that is really dificult to make, so they instantly say the game sucks. The fanbase is changing, eventually all the people who hate the new Sonic games will leave, leaving only the fans who enjoyed them. The I will rule the world. YAY!!!

*sweatdrops*my badmeant to press reply instead of edit. why do I still have mod powers?>_>;;~~AB

>_>. Ok really. Where are you guys finding these people? lol

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I think some people expected a good game at least, but that is really dificult to make when the programmers despised creating it, so instantly the game sucks.

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Fixed.

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The fanbase is changing, eventually all the people who hate the new Sonic games will leave, leaving only the fans who enjoyed them.

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Luckily, my 5-6 year old cousins hate the 3D Sonic games that has been released and prefer to play SMC+.

Essential features lacking: 3D graphics (fixed with pretty much every new Sonic game now). Weaponry (Shadow). Detailed in-game cinematics (that started way back with Adventure). RPG-style upgrades (Sonic Heroes).

More basically, a save-game feature (admittedly, present in S3&K and SCD). A 'quick fix' mode (also present in SCD, but more notable in Sonic Adventure's 'trials'). A reason for the gamer not to think any more than necessary (Tikal, Omochao, the SH question marks). A large cast of playable characters. Multiple gaming options. A replay value dependent on unlockables/bonuses rather than scores and sheer joy.

Gamers' tastes are changing. They want an interactive movie moreso than a videogame. Conformity sucks.

-Jake

Well, I was mainly talking about how techincally well the current games are put together which is the reason for my "essential feature" smack. Forget about the 3D graphics or cinematics, there is just no excuse of how rushed, unpolished, and the presence or poor level design the main games have currently compared to 11 years ago.

Also, I'm not sure if the 'interactive movie' comment is totally true. Otherwise MGS3 would have outsold your average EA game.

Agreed, 'interactive movie' may be stretching it quite a bit. But gamers aren't nearly as satisfied with simple level to level design, they want cutscenes, VA, and prefer CG animations.

And yes, production value has nose-dived since the coming of 3D. But dude, it's hard to program in 3D as compared to 2D. You'd think it's just adding in a z-coordinate, but that opens up a lot of other headache-inducing stuff. The games can't just be cranked out in a year or so anymore, and when they are (all to often the case), they are chock-full of glitches.

I'm not defending Sonic Team. We don't need four crappy Sonic games a year, I'd love to have just one great one every two or three. So yeah, I agree... there's no excuse for how rushed games are, and the lack of polish and poor level design is a result of that.

-Jake

They weren't that bad. Sonic Rush, Sonic Advance series, Sonic Battle, were very well done. Sonic Heroes and Shadow were ok, and sold well. Riders is loved by somepeople, and it sold well, too. I don't see anyreason to say that it jumped shark, unless your an old school gaming fan dude.

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I don't see anyreason to say that it jumped shark, unless your an old school gaming fan dude.

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If you honestly cannot see a difference in quality between Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Shadow the Hedgehog, you've got some very interesting standards, kid.

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They weren't that bad. Sonic Rush, Sonic Advance series, Sonic Battle, were very well done.

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I haven't played Sonic Battle, but the SAdv 1-3 was just average games that were far from the glory of the Genny Sonics. Sonic Advance 1 is unplayable now because I find it to be just slow and boring. Sonic Advance 2 level design is meh and the bosses are more MEH. Sonic Advance 3 level design isn't that improved from Advance 2 and it have wasted potential of a double-edge sword of a gimmick. Or and all three had some the dumbmest access to special stages in a Sonic game.

I haven't played Sonic Rush much, though from what I've played it's presentation is way above any of the Advance game. Actually Sonic Rush sans Battle is the only game I would say that is well done--and even that has problems such as the abundance of bottlomless pits.

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Sonic Heroes and Shadow were ok, and sold well. Riders is loved by somepeople, and it sold well, too.

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Sells =/= quality

For example: Shadow of the Colossus was a highly critically acclaimed game that was released last year. It won several awards, got nomimated for Game of the Year from countless magazines and other outlets, and is frequently used as an example of how video games can be art.

However, that game didn't sell well with the mainstream public.

Meanwhile, Shadow the Hedgehog was heavily slammed by 90% of the video game media industry, mocked by almost everyone outside of the Sonic community, mocked inside of the Sonic community, and the only award I know that it won was PGC's "WTF! Game Blunder" of 2005.

That game like you said sold well.

So have games like 50cent Bulletproof and your average Nickelodeon franchise crapfest of a game.

All it proves is that the franchise name/character is popular enough is that it doesn't need to be actually good to move more than a million units worldwide. Weaksauce!

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I don't see anyreason to say that it jumped shark, unless your an old school gaming fan dude.

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Or played other current-gen games that surprassed this franchise current offerings, whatever.

I like the new games, and the old games. But anyways there are still a million fans who hate Shadow and Hereos but they still remain fans, Why is beyond me, but untill they all leave, Sonic hasn't really jumped Shark. I think Jumping the Shark would be when tons of old fans stop buying the games, but there are all the new fans who learned about Sonic through Sonic X and Heroes, they would probably remain.

When a franchise Jump the Shark, that doesn't neccesarily mean that the fanbase will cease to exist overnight or even drastically decrease.

I mean take The Simpsons for example. Many people in the fandom consider that it Jumped the Shark 10 years ago. Some people such as myself find the show currently to be unwatchable pap that defiles the characters I've come to love for the first 8 seasons and turns them into shallow charactures for a program that's lost all of its heart in order to be turn into "Family Guy Lite".

And yet, The Simpsons is still one of Fox's highest rated programs. Why? I don't know? Maybe some fans cling to the false hope it will get better(it won't) or that they believe it is still currently one of the best program that is airing on TV(it's not, unless you mean season 3-8 syndicated reruns).

I didn't know that, but what I meant was, I thought jumping shark was when there is no hope for a series to get better. There are hundreds, or thousands of Sonic fans hoping the series will get better. Personally, I don't see why they think it is so bad in the first place, but that is just me. So I don't think it has jumped shark yet, and for me, personally I don't think it is anywhere near. (Wild Fire looks great)

Well people here already gave some valid reasons why they feel the series jumped the shark.

They are also plenty of former Sonic fans who lost interest of the series because of the direction it is going and Sonic fans who is losing hope and are nearly ready to drop the series current incarnation.

I'll admit, my own opinion is slightly biased because, honestly, I missed everything between Sonic 3D Blast (Genesis/Megadrive) and Sonic Adventure (Dreamcast). So my "old-school" history has a gaping hole in it. Not that that makes any difference in my opinion, mind you. I just felt that was worth saying.

My opinion is based on comparing Sonic games with others being produced.
The 3D Sonics are incomparably inferior to the better games in the 3D platforming market (Prince of Persia, Psychonauts, etc)
The most recent 2D Sonics (Advance 3, Rush) are, frankly, well ahead of most 2D platformers currently being produced.
Hence why I feel no shark-jumping has yet occurred. The 3D games were never genre leaders, hence no downward slide. The 2D games are still genre leaders.

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The most recent 2D Sonics (Advance 3, Rush) are, frankly, well ahead of most 2D platformers currently being produced.

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Well, I can't argue with that. Though, this probably isn't that hard to achieve currently as most new 2D platformers are licenced kiddy crap. =(

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Hence why I feel no shark-jumping has yet occurred. The 3D games were never genre leaders, hence no downward slide. The 2D games are still genre leaders.

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Yes, but guess which of the two types of Sonic gamimg format gets the most hype and attention from not just Sega but from gamers in general?

Exactly.

For the record, Acid,

!=[image]. 😛