Maybe Sonic is slowly in the process of Jumping Shark. I don't think that is a bad thing, just that it is going in a completely new direction that the old fans hate, but the new fans like. Would it be possible for something to jump shark twice. Since something can still jump shark and have allot of fans.
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Yes, but guess which of the two types of Sonic gamimg format gets the most hype and attention from not just Sega but from gamers in general?
I was looking at game quality rather than popularity, I'll grant you.
And there are still decent 2D plaformers being made. Viewtiful Joe. New Super Mario Bros.
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And there are still decent 2D plaformers being made. Viewtiful Joe. New Super Mario Bros.
I was refering mainly to the GBA in which the vast majority new of platformers on that system is licensed kiddy crud.
What's sad, Xag, is that both the good-quality 2D games you mention blow the Sonics out of the water.
Well... New SMB, anyway. I'm basing Veiwtiful Joe on the reviews, as I've not played it.
-Jake
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What's sad, Xag, is that both the good-quality 2D games you mention blow the Sonics out of the water.
Actually, I'm inclined to disagree. Sonic Advance 3 is, to me, at least as good as NSMB and VJ. (I have played all 3 games, and own 2 of them)
Advance 1 and 2, true, are vastly inferior, but have you really played Advance 3?
I hear Rush is actually even with them, too.
Every thing hits a low point, sonic being one of them. Sure, sonic heros was bad but I still bought it due to the fact that chaotix was in it. The sonic gamecube games seems to hit a low point whille sonic gba/ds games seems to do better. (May be the fact that there are little voiceing in gba/ds games)I have yet to play sonic rush (because I don't have a ds to play it on. Im broke.) But after seeing a you tube video of sonic rush, I have to say, It felt like old school sonic with a twist.
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Sonic Advance 3 is, to me, at least as good as NSMB and VJ. (I have played all 3 games, and own 2 of them)
Advance 1 and 2, true, are vastly inferior, but have you really played Advance 3?
I hear Rush is actually even with them, too.
I know you didn't address me, but I just want to reply to this anyway. Even though I haven't yet played NSMB and VJ yet, I did play both SAdv3 and Rush and I have to say there is no way that Adv3 is on the same level as Rush. For one thing the partner gimmick is completely useless in this game and another, they brought back that stupid idea from SAdv2 that gather more rings to make Sonic go faster. And then the have that stupid collect the chao hunt to get to the special level. While it is not as bad as the prequel, it still is an awful way to enter the special stage. Meh.
At best, all the Advance games are better than those THQ licensed titles and probably have the same level of enjoyment as the first Klonoa GBA game. Still, I wouldn't call them my favorite original platformers(Kirby's Magic Mirror suprasses it, I also like Drill Dozer a bit more, and if the Metroidvania's count--then I adore Aria of Sorrow much much more).
I agree with Ashide, Xag. I thought of the Sonic Advance games, the first was best and they gradually declined. The partner system was just more annoying than anything... I actually preferred Heroes'.
Doesn't matter. I sold 'em both.
-Jake
I actually liked SAdv3 just as much as Rush. The partner system actually worked IMO. Didn't feel like a needless gimmick to me; I mean, several times the different powers you could use helped me reach new routes in the levels. The only problem I had with the game was when I'd run into a wall, wonder where I go next, and get crushed by a lowering platform.
But, whatever. We've all got our own tastes in gameplay, so to each their own.
I'll admit the speicla stages were a weak point, but I always found the partner system workable- it could be simply ignored if you preferred.
However, the reason I rate it above otheer modern 2D platformers is because I still believe some of the level design itself to be very, very good.
When all's said and done, I consider that the most essential elemant of a good platformer, and Advance 3 had it in spades- more so than Advance 2 or 1, Kolnoa GBA (which I have played) or most 2D plaformers of my acquaintance. All the rest is just polish and extras.
Ok, so the best platformer on the GBA is Yoshi's Island, but that was neither modern nor original.
I avoid comparing the Sonic GBA games to the classic ports such as SMB3 and Yoshi's Island because that would have been too unfair. XD
That said, Kirby's Magic Mirror's level design slaughters and of the SAdv games.
IMHO, Sonic Rush was much better than the Adv games, but its design had the major flaw have played no differently when as Sonic or Blaze. The only noticable difference was Blaze's terrible level order (the creators ignored difficulty and dropped her almost randomly.) That being said, the Adv games has Rush beat on that, but that alone.
I think I now stand by the idea that if STH'06 and/or Wildfire turn out to be no better than previous Sonic games, then yes, the series has leapt(?) the shark.
If STH'06 and Wildfire suck, then the series, for me, will have leapt the shark. But as far as sales go, I doubt it. The games, terrible or not, still sell very well, and on popular next-gen systems with pretty graphics? Definately going to do well.
So if this next slew of Sonic games does, indeed, suck, and does predictably well in terms of sales, then the series is pretty much dead to us old fans. If it sells well, then the series isn't broke. If it ain't broke, why fix it?
Here's hoping STH'06 doesn't suck, because I have no hope for Wildfire. Or Rivals.
-Jake
In related news, Xplay wants to save the Sonic series(click the Xplay saves link).
This was more appropriate than making a new topic.
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That said, Kirby's Magic Mirror's level design slaughters and of the SAdv games.
Don't believe I've played that, but... I;ve yet to play a Kirby game where the level design was more than mildly interesting.
And I would take Sadv3 over SMB3 in terms of level design, as I feel the latter has some severely flawed points.
EH?! Such as...
*shrugs* It just this is the first time I ever seen someone who prefers Sadv3 over SMB3--or is it just in level design only and not the whole shebang overall?
Also, KMM has level design/progression that resembles Metroid which is why I love it so.
I saw that Xplay segment when it first aired, and in their seriousness, I agree. Adam (one of the hosts of the show) mentions stripping the series down and just making it play like Sonic plays, pratically the exact same thing we fans are saying.
I feel stupid for asking but, SMB3 is Super Mario Brothers 3, right?
Yep.
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I saw that Xplay segment when it first aired, and in their seriousness, I agree. Adam (one of the hosts of the show) mentions stripping the series down and just making it play like Sonic plays, pratically the exact same thing we fans are saying.
To be honest, it sounded like they only cared about Sonic being really fast, the exact same thing I hear from SEGA, and many other journalists from games magazines.
I don't care about the speed of the Sonic games. I only like the gameplay. That's probably why I like games like Heroes and Shadow, for me it isn't about the speed, it is about doing stuff.
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EH?! Such as...
*shrugs* It just this is the first time I ever seen someone who prefers Sadv3 over SMB3--or is it just in level design only and not the whole shebang overall?
Whole shebang.
For instance, the pyramid level in SMB3, world 2 annoys the hell out of me.
I am personally not a big fan of the Pipe labyrinths in World 7, but that still doesn't stop the overall experience of SMB3 being good.
I just feel that SMB3 succeeds as a Mario platformer with all of it's secrets, levels, and whatever innovations it brought to the series where Sonic Advance 3 fails as a Sonic platformer in that like it successors it punishes you for going too fast and gimmicks that are poor implemented(the majority of the combo combinations don't really add to the fun or is as deep as the level branching of S3&K).
I could never really get into Sonic Advance 3, the big sell point for me was co-op with 2 players, expecting it to be like Sonic 3 again, and if you've played co-op 2 player mode with Sonic Advance, you'll know it's terible. The main problem is that you share rings, as in if one guy gets hit, you lose all you rings, and after that the second guy gets hit, you both die. Couple this with uncontrolable tubes that lead you directly into enemies or traps and you find the death count is high.
As for the topic at hand, I personally think the whole thing leaped at Heroes, they brought back Shadow for no reason, advertised Metal Sonic when he didn't do anything but mutate into something freakish, and lead to Shadow's game. I haven't bought Shadow or played Riders, and considering Rush is pretty much what SAdv2 should have been it's a bit disapointing.
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Sonic Advance 3 fails as a Sonic platformer in that like it successors it punishes you for going too fast and gimmicks that are poor implemented
Bizarrely enough, this are my main complaints about SMB3. If you tried to go through it at any speed faster thna a crawl, you inevitably ran into sudden death-traps. The levels were too gimmicky and suprise-based to compare to the vastly superior design of Super Mario World, say.
I actually found, with Sadv3, that most of the bits people claim punished you for going fast either a) had some form of warning or b) could actually be bypassed if you were going fast enough.
The main problem with moving to quickly in SAdv3 was because enemies would show up in areas that were long strait-aways. Rush helped stop this issue a bit by making your character nearly invincible when boosting, but the advance games gave each character a small attack. I found them hard to perform and would just ram into the badnik and loose my rings or die. It was very annoying.
The pair that could get around this in SAdv3 was Cream with Knuckles as her partner. Cheese circled Cream and would automatically hit any enemies I'd run into. It was otherwise a pretty cheap way to play the game. 
As far as I'm concerned, Craig's definition of "jumping the shark" is the correct one. It's the one I've even seen TV documentaries use.
It could be argued that the shark was jumped as soon as everyone went OOC enough to want to settle their differences with a punch-up with their friends in Sonic Championship.
It could be argued that the shark was jumped the moment that the series was given its SA redesign, and Sonic's "cool" became all about looking good, weating the right shoes and throwing "attitude" in everyone's faces rather than just having the courage to be yourself whatever anyone thought.
It was borderline in SA2 after both Tails and Amy seemed to totally forget their character development in SA1; but for me, the shark was irrevocably jumped in Sonic Heroes.
Sonic spouting all of that Rent-A-Quote (TM) dialogue, Knuckles not even mentioning the ME once, Shadow's backstory apparently changing every other scene... Silly.
And don't get me started on Sonic actually needing an air board to race someone...
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And don't get me started on Sonic actually needing an air board to race someone...
I dunno, Sam. The concept of Sonic in karts was goofier.
It can be assumed that Jet-on-board is faster than Sonic-on-foot.
I dunno, Sam. The concept of Sonic in karts was goofier.
To be honest with you, Acid: I forgot about that one. 🙂
To me, the clear jumping of the shark moment was Shadow the Hedgehog. And I also watched that X-Play saves segment. The segment to me came across as just an excuse for them to take a few more pot shots at Shadow. And X-Play has never been sympathetic towards the 3D Sonic series anyway.
Can you honestly blame them?
Sonic seems to be fending off the shark jumping ramp the same way the Castlevania series is. They release an average console title, then back it up with a good portable title.
True, but then again, I think Sonic deserves to take a few blows, considering that the 3D Sonic titles have all gone Downhill since SA1, and Sonic Team really need to realise this and fix it fast!
What's to fix?
The games sell.
Sonic Team aren't going to put any effort or quality into their games if they can rush out a semi-polished turd and have it sell like gangbusters.
However, I have a feeling that Sonic 2K6 actually bombed this time.
But there are several reasons for Sega to spin this so it doesn't look like they rushed out a game before it was ready.
1) Sonic games only sell on PS2 and Gamecube.
2) The 360 isn't the target demographic (Viva Piata Bombed apparently).
3) People didn't like the whole realistic world.
4) Those 4Kids Voice Overs have to go.
5) The media has always been against 3D Sonic games.
It depends how well the PS3 version does really.
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It depends how well the PS3 version does really.
lawl!
I can see this gaming bombing on the PS3 too.
I don't think Sonic has jumped the Shark. But on the close verge of doing so maybe. If the writers are going to keep attempting complicated story lines they need a better, gamer friendly way of explaining things. I'm more worried about the story telling (Since now I guess they are going to try and make Sonic's stories more epic) than the game play at the moment.
Wasn't the simple storyline one of reasons we complained about Sonic Heroes though?
No, the complete lack of storyline that <i>wasn't retarded</i> was one of the reasons we complained about Sonic Heroes.
you mean that wasn't mentally hilarious?
Wasn't the simple storyline one of reasons we complained about Sonic Heroes though
Yeah, but there's Simple...and then there's just plain idiotic.
Did Sonic Team think "If we're going to have a Simple storyline, we're going to have to strip the characters of ALL interesting personality"
No...Golden Axe had a simple story, Sonic Hereos had a very BLAND story that lacked any kind of emotion or character development, but then tried to have a big ending and kind of failed miserably.
Instead of leaving unanswered questions in the way that Resident Evil does (Who does Wesker work for? is a good example), we are simply confused as to the fact that ending was...nonexistant, it wouldn't have killed Sonic Team to show exactly what the characters did after they left Final Fortress (even Sonic Shuffle pulled this one off, despite how lame the game was).
In short, the story was beyond simple, it was pretty damn Patronising, same goes with Shadow the Hedgehog as well, as dark as it tried to be, it just failed...horribly.
OKAY, RANT OVER.
For the first time in my life as a Sonic fan, I'm rooting for a Sonic title to bomb commercially. I never thought I would say that, but the problems that have become endemic to the 3D series can no longer be ignored. If Sonic '06 bombs, then maybe Sega will be awakened from their apparent complacency with the franchise, and hopefully give future titles proper attention.
Hello. ^^; Thought I'd come out of lurk to give my two cents.
I'm a bit pressed not to say the series jumped the shark with the Adventure games - major stylistic changes [colorful, fantasy environments to things a bit more grounded in reality] , a deeper, more emotional plot, the general loss of simplicity - basically, everything I liked about the originals seems to go out the window. Not to mention about...half of those games seems to consist of gameplay actually based off the 2-D games.
Now, I'm not gonna say the series jumped th' shark then - while definitely different from the originals, I don't think the Adventure games were bad, per say. Heroes, on the other hand...>>; Ahh. That wasn't so good. The level style regains some of its colorful charm, and the plot...well, kind of returns to a simple, easily approachable story. It seems to try at least. But really, it just ends up being inane. Knuckles isn't even bothering with the ME, OOCness seems to abound, and...you don't even race Metal Sonic.
You don't even race Metal Sonic. =(
So, I guess I think the series really dropped the ball around Heroes - but the real nail in the coffin was Shadow. >>; Vechiles? Guns? Shadow? I won't call the attempts at a morality system laughable, as I've never really played it - but it looks terrible enough for me to steer well away from it, and it certainly doesn't seem to hold even an echo of the games much of the fandom grew up playing. =/
And there's my two cents...I do hope it wasn't too long. ^^;
YOU DON'T EVEN RACE METAL SONIC!! *flips a table over and starts crying*
Seriously, it hit me just as bad as it hit you...
So whats the general understanding? That the shark leaping happened at Heroes? Or Shadow the Hedgehog?
I say it was Sonic Adventure 2, or during the HYPE for Heroes.
Maybe Sonic will never jump the shark until people stop buying the games. Isn't that how it works?
The theory of jumping the shark is when a franchise hits a level of quality deemed to be exceptionally low and will never return to the high degree of quality it once had. Therefore, people stopping buying the games does not mean it's jumped the shark, as whilst many people believe the new Sonic games have dropped to a quality standard that it can't improve upon, the games have still sold by the bucketfull, such as Heroes and Shadow. The new Sonic the Hedgehog game seems to be bucking that trend, not by improving the quality of the overall game, but simply by not as selling as much.
It depends on the individual and their like for the Sonic games. I've hated every single 3D Sonic game since SA2, so imo Sonic's jumped the shark then.
I thought Shark Jumping usually happens when something is at its highest point, it's climax, that everything after it seems unimportant or not a great quality-wise after it. I mean the term was coined when Fonzie did something so seemingly cool that everything he did afterwards seemed so lame.
So I guess it could be argued that S3&K or even SA1, which is Sonic's real first foray into a fully-fledged 3D platformer is the point where the franchise Jumped the Shark.
