Hahahaha! "no more heroes" Nice one! Yea...I too wish the fly formation wasn't...so...weird and unorthodox. They could've like mapped that specific formation to a button or something. Tsk tsk tsk...Sonic Team...what fools you are. xD!
They could've like mapped that specific formation to a button or something.
Flying over obstacles and punching walls should've been as easy as the pressing of a button, it shouldn't have compromised speed in any way whatsoever.
Punching need not even need a button. Just bring back the automatic wall bashing from S3&K. Remember how Knuckles would automatically break breakable walls just by running into them?
Remember how Knuckles would automatically break breakable walls just by running into them?
How could I forget? 
Oh yeah, amnesia. 
Personally, the main issue I had with Heroes' gameplay was having to actually switch characters and the absence of any proper teamwork maneuvers.
If they ever revisit the 3-man team, I would like to see something like this(Using Team Sonic and the Gamecube controller as examples):
Sonic is always in the lead with Tails and Knuckles running in his slipstream.
Pressing A will make the team jump in unison.
Pressing A in midair will launch a homing attack.
Holding B charges a spindash
Pressing B in midair cancels a jump.
Pressing X executes a Power attack from Knuckles.
Sonic resumes the lead as soon as you start running after a power attack.
Pressing Y repeatedly executes flight.
Sonic resumes the lead as soon as you touch down.
Knuckles automatically smashes breakable barriers without slowing down.
Tails automatically takes flight if you are falling towards a bottomless pit.
Yeah, I do agree SH could have been much better. Hell, A TON of their games could've been MUCH, MUCH better. But Sega doesn't give a damn. I don't think they EVER did.
Punching need not even need a button. Just bring back the automatic wall bashing from S3&K. Remember how Knuckles would automatically break breakable walls just by running into them?
Wow...that's true. Damn SEGA! You know...I want every person that has worked on a Sonic game since SA2 to sit down and playthrough S3&K extensively. I wonder if they've ever even played through that game or any of Sonic's older titles.
I highly doubt any of them do.
It's too bad the Sonic franchise isn't being run by former fans like the Transformers franchise is.
I just HATE how Sonic is such a cool character, cool game (or at least was) and cool idea but Sega is made up of a bunch of idiots so Sonic doesn't get the attention he deserves.
No, Sonic is run by a bunch of idiots who have no idea how to make a half decent story and end up putting him in queer situations. Like Thomas the tank engine.
This could be happily ignored if the games were actually any good. They aren't. Unleashed was a step forward but its almost one step forward, two steps back with that one.
What would like to see is a sort of online co op Sonic game. But that would require them to actually try and make the characters fun to play as. Its possible. In my mind its possible. 
No, Sonic is run by a bunch of idiots who have no idea how to make a half decent story and end up putting him in queer situations. Like Thomas the tank engine.
This could be happily ignored if the games were actually any good. They aren't. Unleashed was a step forward but its almost one step forward, two steps back with that one.
What would like to see is a sort of online co op Sonic game. But that would require them to actually try and make the characters fun to play as. Its possible. In my mind its possible.
"(I'm Here) Do it, do it, do it, DO IT!! Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery..." *shot and then cooked in a pizza oven and fed to the livestock* Sorry...love the music...no denying that. lol But online co-op...i've actually thought of that before, when I originally saw Heroes. But after seeing what Sonic Team is realistically capable of...I would like to see them have a Sonic and Tails adventure a la Sonic 2. Maybe, they could do that. *shrugs*
"(I'm Here) Do it, do it, do it, DO IT!! Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery..." *shot and then cooked in a pizza oven and fed to the livestock*
I was thinking Paula Abdul's "Opposites Attract" personally 
My problem with Sonic games recently is that I'm too cheap to keep up with the consoles, so new games are out of reach anyhow. I think I'll stay in my little nostalgia cocoon with Sonic Gems & Mega Collections - on the rare occasions when I break out the Gamecube at all...
DW
Hahahah Paula Abdul...nice! But you know...Gems and Mega Collection are the only two I kept when I underwent a huge trade-in frenzy awhile ago. Those are the Sonic games we really want afterall. *high fives you*
Yeah. I wish Sonic Team/Sega weren't such idiots. I just think that I've gotten too far into Sonic to let myself give it up and move to Mario or FF...
http://www.industrygamers...y-to-be-fixed-over-time/ Sorry if this has already been linked. Not much content to it but it might interest someone.
<strong class="quote-title"
B Vulpix wrote:
http://www.industrygamers...y-to-be-fixed-over-time/ Sorry if this has already been linked. Not much content to it but it might interest someone.
Decided to read this article after seeing it pop up over at Retro. I'd love to follow the man's logic, but his statement reads like a self-fulfilling prophesy.
"Yes, it's always a challenge to raise that quality bar, but our competitors are trying to put the best product out there and we're no different. Given that it takes a couple of years to make some of these games, it's not surprising that we're not going to see the effort that's being put in over the past 12 months until another 6-12 months."
Surely the answer to this conundrum, mind-crippling as it is, is to take the time, likely more than a year, to produce a high-quality game. If Sega stopped squeezing Sonic Team to cough up a new game every Christmas season in absolute defiance of preparedness, Sonic Team might actually expend the time to create a satisfying game. As long as executives like Ratcliffe are under some misguided notion that quantity > quality (or quantity = quality), Sonic Team will continue to churn out any kind of mess to make a quick buck. This ties neatly to my next point:
"So that's a big part of our strategy, in terms of taking classic IP and making it available digitally, rather than spend a huge amount of money trying to re-imagine that IP on 360 and PS3; there's a lot more financial risk attached to that."
More financially risky than trying to get all your milk from a single cow? Tch, if Sega has to use the series as its crutch, it could at least publish competently-fashioned ports and refrain from releasing such stellar works as Sonic 1 Genesis. Even then, ports do nothing to rebuild a franchise's reputation. High-risk, high-reward is a staple of business. This mindset has all to do with cheaply acquiring dollars through almost no effort rather than striving for excellence. It is a stop-gap measure to mollify fans at best.
"A lot of hard work goes into striving for quality. Interestingly, I think Sonic Unleashed was very well received by the kids...I think older, die-hard Sega fans who grew up with the franchise and the first Sonic the Hedgehog associate Sonic more with 2-D side-scrolling super fast, and they liked the daytime gameplay, but when it came to the slower paced gameplay they were fairly critical of that, and that's fine - they have their opinions."
Apart from the fact that Labyrinth Zone wants to have a word with this man, there is just something crass about this arrogant defence of gimmicks. Gimmicks would be less objectionable if the games' quality was not subpar; all the team play, guns, and alternate beast forms in the world will not make a bad game into a good one. A cake can have countless decorations on it, but if it tastes bad, that's the bottom line. Alas, Sega has told "older, die-hard Sega fans" to eat cake, irrespective of the bad taste left in the fans' mouths.
Hello... new guy here.
Ever since Sonic went 3D, the controversy began. SA1 and SA2... people either loved them or hated them. While both games played drastically different from each other, and fans of one may not be fond of the other, there was still a lot of time and thought behind both which gave them their charms. And at that point, they were still up there with Mario as top platformer titles. I really feel that it was once they rolled in with Sonic Heroes that they started to get lazy. After the release of SA2, and the fall of the Dreamcast, we didn't see a new Sonic game for several years, aside from a few cute handheld titles and constant remakes for the Gamecube. Sonic Heroes to me had a lot of potential. The style of gameplay to me, was not the problem at all. It was the storyline(or lack of), the drop in characters' development, and the fact that each Team's game was essentially you just playing the same game four times over.
I also think that after Sonic Heroes, Sega focused WAAAAY too much on Shadow. Every ounce of good storyline, character development, plot twists, and general ===-kicking, seemed to be sucked completely away from Sonic, and given all to Shadow. This aplies in both games, Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06'. Even in Sonic X... nobody actually defeats Shadow, EVER, or even puts him in a situation where ANY signs of weakness are shown.
What ever happened to Sonic being a wise-cracker? I know the early 90's cartoons and comics were never meant to be canon, but they established a personality for Sonic that made him an icon in his time. It's almost painful for me to see Sonic's personality in Sonic X, Sonic Unleashed, or anything recently released by Sega compared to him in SatAM. Tails has gone from an adorable side-kick that hey, would always get my lady friends into the games back in the 90's, to well... Tails now? Not even cute, extremely annoying, be it the new voice, the idle banter about gadgets, or perhaps just a combination of both. Knuckles went from a well-developed anti-hero with his quirks, to well... a constant victim of slapstick.
Our beloved friends of the Sonic series, are like beloved rock stars of the 90's who today, are just old, washed-up, forgotten, or in some cases hated. Which leads me to the big question. What was it that made Sonic work back then, that isn't working now. Well... here's a list of the problems, some restated, some new, comparing Sonic of the old, to Sonic of the new.
1.)-Lack of Personality
The wise-crackin' Sonic of the 90's. The adorable side-kick Tails. The anti-hero, and rival Knuckles, have been reduced to well. A blue hedgehog with no real defining personality. Just talks about the value of friendship, and doing the right thing. The overly annoying Tails, with the gadgets, and the squeaky voice. And the constant victim of slapstick, Knuckles. If these points were fixed immediately, I think it would definitely cause a big change in reaction from Sonic fans.
2.) -Lots of new ideas, but not enough work put into them.
Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 brought a lot of new styles of gameplay to the table, never previously seen before in Sonic games. Treasure Hunting, shooting, etc. Reactions to both were mixed, and ever since then, Sega would try new ideas, or even try to take it back to old styles. They've tried everything from controlling three characters at once, incorporating guns and vehicles, steering a Wii Mote, hoover board racing, side-scrolling games...while all ideas had potential, I think they focused too much on having new ideas, but not enough on making them work. Any real gamer could agree that any idea as crazy as it sounds could make a good game, if done right(like say Katamari...come on? Sounds crazy! But it worked). And any idea, as genius as it sounds, is doomed to fail, if not done right.
3.) -Making it up as they go along
Sonic as a platformer and franchise is compared a lot to Mario since they both competed in the 90's. However, Sonic can't completely take after the success of Mario because well, Sonic's success was never based off mimicking anything Mario did. Yes, they were both side scrolling platformers but played drastically different. Mario was iconic for his one-liners, Sonic was iconic for his personality. Mario's storylines were entertaining in their simplicity. Sonic's however, had a little more depth. The key isn't to kill the storyline to simplicity, but actually think it out. If Sega actually decided to write the stories for the next five Sonic games ahead of time, and actually string them together piece by piece, as opposed to just making up the next thing as they go along, and accidentally find themselves repeating constant formulas, it would actually keep people drooling for the next installment to the series.
4.) Quit the rush jobs.
They seem to care more about making the quick buck, than actually making a quality game. It would come to the point of having a new title every year. Honestly, I'd rather one or two solid Sonic titles per-generation of consoles, than five or six bad ones.
5.) They just don't care anymore
It all boils down to this. There's no more soul. They've just given up. Even though they started getting lazy after SA2, I truely believe that after Shadow the Hedgehog, they just stopped caring altogether. When playing Sonic Unleashed, I thought to myself, "Okay, I know some recent Sonic titles have been lackluster, but did they even TRY this time?" Sonic and the Black Knight? It seems to me, that they'll just slap anything together, put the name "Sonic" on it, and depend on the name alone to make it sell. I mean, at least kids will buy it. And the sad truth is, that it's good business for them. The older Sonic fanbase, from teens to young adults, while strong in passion, just aren't strong enough in numbers. And with every generation of dying Sonic players(not even good enough to be called fans), comes in the new younger generation of Sonic players. They're just dumb kids that'll buy anything. And Sega just uses Sonic's iconic name from nearly a decade ago, to keep that formula alive for as long as they can cheaply milk it. As great as it would be for them to spend big bucks and many years on a well-produced Sonic game, it just doesn't pay as much for them they at least see, as opposed to producing cheap title after cheap title, that any ignorant parent will buy for their kid.
I really feel that Sonic is doomed to be discontinued in the not too distant future. I doubt he will make it through the next decade. One of the big problems is, that even if Sega did start caring again, and pulled some unarguably amazing Sonic game, so many Sonic fans of the olde have just turned a blind eye on the series, and just may not care anymore. If Sonic is ever to regain his popularity back, it's probably gonna be a slow process. They would need to completely reboot the series. Like, plan out a storyline for the next five games, completely ignore everything that has happened in every previous Sonic game(since they've buried themselves in a hole with it), and re-introduce the characters. Make a new game with just Sonic and Tails fighting Eggman. Introduce Knuckles and Metal Sonic in the next game, then Shadow and Rouge in the next, etc.
And I don't care if it's side-scrolling, straight path 3D, full-exploration 3D, a 2d game, focused on speed, exploration...whatever. I don't care what formula they use, as long as they just put the time and devotion into it to make it good. Because that right there is the forumla that made Sonic work back in the day, that isn't happening now.
Hello, Silv! Welcome to the boards! I gotta say that's...quite alot to contribute to the discussion as your first post here. You'll fit right in! 
The Adventure titles to core Sonic fans seemed to work fine. SA more so than SA2, i'd probably predict. But still they were quality titles. Heroes did indeed have lots of potential. Where things went wrong...i'm not even going to try and tackle that. The fall of SEGA as 1st party could've been a cause of sorry Sonic games[shouldn't be, but there's a possibilty]. Shadow...*sighs* I was once on his bandwagon. Mighty hardcore you could say. He was up there past Sonic as my favorite in the series. *gasps* Yes...I know, I know. lol He was hardcore as hell, though, gotta admit it. I wonder what would've happened if he actually had...you know in SA2. Heroes might've been a better game, considering we'd only have to play through said game 3 times. *ring shot* If I have to say one thing though, it is I AGREE completely with your number 4. One or two spectacular Sonic games per generation would own. But it's almost like SEGA is making Sonic Team milk Sonic to get this huge sum of money to like...re-enter the console race or something. >_>
Hmmm....
S'up Silv!
1.)-<<Lack of Personality
The wise-crackin' Sonic of the 90's. The adorable side-kick Tails. The anti-hero, and rival Knuckles, have been reduced to well. A blue hedgehog with no real defining personality. Just talks about the value of friendship, and doing the right thing. The overly annoying Tails, with the gadgets, and the squeaky voice. And the constant victim of slapstick, Knuckles. If these points were fixed immediately, I think it would definitely cause a big change in reaction from Sonic fans.>>
I don't think giving Sonic his 90's cartoon personality would be an improvement. At worse, he would be compared to The Simpson's Poochie more so than ever. Sonic being a mostly mute character and should his personality through gestures is much more effective that shouting some obnoxious catchphrases that would make even Spider-Man shake his head in shame. I said this before, but I believe many of the older characters(Tails, Knuckles,and Amy) are being Flanderized because of many of the newer characters taking over their roles or aping their former personality. For example, Knuckles was originally Sonic main rival--the anti-hero who doesn't worship Sonic and he was this character up to SA1. However, Shadow now replaced Knuckles in this role and the poor guy has been reduced to a second sidekick for Sonic. :^| But I guess that's cause Shadow is "edgier" and was "extremely cool" to the kiddies. :^/
<<2.) -Lots of new ideas, but not enough work put into them.
Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 brought a lot of new styles of gameplay to the table, never previously seen before in Sonic games. Treasure Hunting, shooting, etc. Reactions to both were mixed, and ever since then, Sega would try new ideas, or even try to take it back to old styles. They've tried everything from controlling three characters at once, incorporating guns and vehicles, steering a Wii Mote, hoover board racing, side-scrolling games...while all ideas had potential, I think they focused too much on having new ideas, but not enough on making them work. Any real gamer could agree that any idea as crazy as it sounds could make a good game, if done right(like say Katamari...come on? Sounds crazy! But it worked). And any idea, as genius as it sounds, is doomed to fail, if not done right.
>>
I think most of their new ideas would work out much better if they were developed as original IPs instead of half-assing these gimmicks in the next Sonic game. The Werehog for example, had it been finely polished and developed further than in Sonic Unleashed, it possible would have made a nice Ristar sequel or spiritual successor. I remember reading that Silver's gameplay was originally supposed to be for an original title, but I recall the creator was brought in to develop Sonic 2K6 and they used his idea to shove into a Sonic game. Many of these gimmicky ideas are like the equivilant of like instead of Nintendo creating the next Zelda and Metroid, they decide to stick with Mario and give him a sword or a gun.
<<3.) -Making it up as they go along
Sonic as a platformer and franchise is compared a lot to Mario since they both competed in the 90's. However, Sonic can't completely take after the success of Mario because well, Sonic's success was never based off mimicking anything Mario did. Yes, they were both side scrolling platformers but played drastically different. Mario was iconic for his one-liners, Sonic was iconic for his personality. Mario's storylines were entertaining in their simplicity. Sonic's however, had a little more depth. The key isn't to kill the storyline to simplicity, but actually think it out. If Sega actually decided to write the stories for the next five Sonic games ahead of time, and actually string them together piece by piece, as opposed to just making up the next thing as they go along, and accidentally find themselves repeating constant formulas, it would actually keep people drooling for the next installment to the series.
>>
I disagree. Sonic games' plots doesn't need a lot of depth. A simple "Eggman captured animal/people/animal-people and placed them in robots in an attempt to take over the world, so stop him" story will do. If there is anything in the Sonic series that needs depth, it is the the level design and a physics engine.
I highly doubt any of them do.
It's too bad the Sonic franchise isn't being run by former fans like the Transformers franchise is.
You didn't watch Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen did you?
Haha, does that have anything to do with anything? I dont know I never saw it. Is it good?
I highly doubt any of them do.
It's too bad the Sonic franchise isn't being run by former fans like the Transformers franchise is.
You didn't watch Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen did you?
Maybe Rose Dust means everything else that didn't involve Michael Bay.
Ashide Bunni wrote:
I don't think giving Sonic his 90's cartoon personality would be an improvement. At worse, he would be compared to The Simpson's Poochie more so than ever. Sonic being a mostly mute character and should his personality through gestures is much more effective that shouting some obnoxious catchphrases that would make even Spider-Man shake his head in shame. I said this before, but I believe many of the older characters(Tails, Knuckles,and Amy) are being Flanderized because of many of the newer characters taking over their roles or aping their former personality. For example, Knuckles was originally Sonic main rival--the anti-hero who doesn't worship Sonic and he was this character up to SA1. However, Shadow now replaced Knuckles in this role and the poor guy has been reduced to a second sidekick for Sonic. :^| But I guess that's cause Shadow is "edgier" and was "extremely cool" to the kiddies. :^/
Well, that was pretty much the point I was trying to get across about Shadow before. I do think however, he does need to at least develop some type of wise-crackin' personality, to some extent, if not to the extent of SatAM Sonic SatAM's Sonic never made me cringe. He was amusing. And while SatAM had nothing to do with SegaSonic, well, back then it wasn't so apparent, since the games has the lack of storyline and dialogue to directly contradict it, as it started to in the next decade. It's safe to say his SatAM persona greatly boosted him into his iconic status. It's how people got to know him, it's how people came to love him(his character, as opposed to the entire franchise in general), and personally, if it worked, even though it wasn't canon, they should have stuck with it. I think if they casted Jaleel White as Sonic's voice in Sonic Adventure, they may have seen more success. Because yes, while we Sonic fans know that the games and every TV show, movie, and comic, are seperate continuties, made by completely different people, the mainstream world, and casual gamers found themselves with an unfamiliar Sonic when SA1 rolled around. Combining this with the fact that we hadn't seen a true Sonic title since S&K, and people find themselves with a very unfamiliar Sonic character and world. And as much as I loved Sonic Adventure for so many reasons, as do most Sonic fans, I feel that Sonic Adventure cut off and confused a lot of casual gamers. Because thing is, a lot of casual gamers, and critis actually hated Sonic Sonic Adventure, as it recieved mixed reviews.
Now, I'm not some SatAM purist, like many who feel that every aspect of SatAM, and Mobius, and all the Freedom Fighters should be implemented into SegaSonic. I very much liked the style and setting of Sonic Adventure, and cherish it as one of my favorite Sonic games. However, one of the biggest things I noticed was well, just how boring Sonic was in the game. He didn't say or do anything that made me really... I dunno, care about him? He was just kinda...there. If there was just one thing they could have adapted from SatAM, it should have been his persona. But no...instead, they go with the Sonic X voice actor, who does an even WORSE job than Drummond, right around the time where he was at least growing on me.
Something has to be done. If not his old persona returning in some form, then fine. Keep him silent like Mario. Because at this point, I'll settle for anything that has nothing to do with the power of frienship and teamwork.
I think most of their new ideas would work out much better if they were developed as original IPs instead of half-assing these gimmicks in the next Sonic game. The Werehog for example, had it been finely polished and developed further than in Sonic Unleashed, it possible would have made a nice Ristar sequel or spiritual successor. I remember reading that Silver's gameplay was originally supposed to be for an original title, but I recall the creator was brought in to develop Sonic 2K6 and they used his idea to shove into a Sonic game. Many of these gimmicky ideas are like the equivilant of like instead of Nintendo creating the next Zelda and Metroid, they decide to stick with Mario and give him a sword or a gun.
Agreed, as well, as also noting, this, in my opinion, is what lead to the demise of Sega, at least as a runner up in the major console wars. I strongly state, though many would disagree with me, that back in the 16-bit wars, Sega was the superior developer. Now don't get me wrong, Nintendo was great, and rightfully deserved all of its success. However, Sonic to me, had more entertainment value than Mario, and well, Sega was actually making better games. Vectorman to me, was better than Metroid. Phantasy Star owned Zelda. Streets of Rage was arguably the best co-op series of games in the 16-bit days. Ristar, Ecco the Dolphin, among many others, were iconic titles in their time. And by the time the Dreamcast rolled around, they just kind of forgot about all these titles. We saw some new games, many of which were good. Skies of Arcadia had a lot of potential for sequels in its world. Vectorman and Streets of Rage titles were in development, but completely canned. We saw the end of Ecco the Dolphin, and Ristar never saw the light of day.
During this time, Nintendo was staying strong with everything they had. The Nintendo 64, one of the greatest game linups of any system. They kept their icons alive and fresh. Legend of Zelda, Mario, Donkey Kong, Star Fox, and several Wario spin-offs on the Gameboy, kept Nintendo fans happy. Not to mention implementing them all into one game known as Super Smash Bros, definitely was a stroke of genius. And with the success of Pokemon at the time, Sega couldn't compete... or perhaps they could have, had they not been so lazy. I loved the Dreamcast, and to this day, is one of my favorite consoles of all time. It had a lot of gems that most people had never heard of. But in all fairness, I can understand why it failed. First and foremost, the bad timing of its release played a key role. However, they lacked that iconic lineup of Sega titles that Nintendo really pumped. I feel that had Sega used Nintendo's strategy, keeping their icons alive, to have a Super Smash Bros. roster that most people would have heard of, they might have stayed in the console race. Any casual gamer these days can identify Donkey Kong, Pokemon, Star Fox, Metroid, and several other iconic titles with Nintendo. Not many other titles come to the mainstream's mind other than Sonic, when the word "Sega" is uttered.
I really feel that Sega sort of collapsed on itself.
It seems today that Phantasy Star is the only series Sonic Team is still putting any effort into at all.
I disagree. Sonic games' plots doesn't need a lot of depth. A simple "Eggman captured animal/people/animal-people and placed them in robots in an attempt to take over the world, so stop him" story will do. If there is anything in the Sonic series that needs depth, it is the the level design and a physics engine.
CAUTION! SONIC 06' SPOILERS AHEAD
Well absolutely, the level designs and physics engines need serious work. But to me, it's not just a matter of gameplay or story. One or the other. Both are important. And both need serious work. Oddly enough though, I'm not sure what flaws people found in Sonic 06'. I still stand by my points of bad characterization for Sonic, and Shadow once again hogging the spotlight. One of my biggest gripes, at least storywise, was that if you really take a good look at everything, Sonic is completely out of the loop of things. Sonic never makes any contact with Mephilis at all in the game, nor is he even made aware of his existence until the final story. And even then, when he is awoken from the dead to fight the final boss, he was STILL never aware of ANYTHING that was going on. They might as well have just called it "Shadow the Hedgehog 2."
But all of that aside, the game had FANTASTIC level design, and I failed to see all of these glitches people constantly pointed out, comparing them even to the number of glitches in Sonic Adventure. The only gripe people had with it that I actually noticed was that Sonic didn't seem to run as fast in this game as he did in previous installments of the series. However, by no means was he slow. It was still a fast-paced game. It combined mechanics of speed, platforming, and combat extremely well. As much as I dislike his character, Shadow's levels and gameplay style were done extremely well. The level designs in general were simply gorgeous, and they really let you branch out and explore. Not to mention it had some of the best songs I had ever heard in any Sonic games. Come on, Aquatic Base? Crisis City? White Acropolis? Fantastic.
Aside from Sonic's insignificance(which well, I supppose was a pretty big problem), gameplay and style-wise, Sonic 06' to me, was quite possibly the best Sonic game ever made, and the TRUE follow-up to Sonic Adventure that was much needed.
If you make a game's level design and gameplay truely amazing, to me, it can overshadow poor characterization and bad storylines. However, they always help. The lack of real storyline in Sonic Heroes and Sonic Unleashed really just dampered the whole experience. I had a few gripes about how Sonic Adventure 2 played and looked. However, the storyline, and antics, and the cheesy Knuckles raps lead to several years of conversation and inside jokes among Sonic peers all throughout the community.
@ last post
I'll have to come back and try to read this again tomorrow.
I highly doubt any of them do.
It's too bad the Sonic franchise isn't being run by former fans like the Transformers franchise is.
You didn't watch Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen did you?
I have seen it, and I do think it was enjoyable.
However, my comment was directed more towards Animated. Most of the production cast were people who grew up as fans of earlier series, and they actually consulted the fanbase at times.
I'll have to come back and try to read this again tomorrow.
Seriously, this is the first time in ages that someone was this enthusastic to this much texts about Sonic here.
Guess I'll reply to some of Silv's comments.
<<I do think however, he does need to at least develop some type of wise-crackin' personality, to some extent, if not to the extent of SatAM Sonic SatAM's Sonic never made me cringe. He was amusing. And while SatAM had nothing to do with SegaSonic, well, back then it wasn't so apparent, since the games has the lack of storyline and dialogue to directly contradict it, as it started to in the next decade. It's safe to say his SatAM persona greatly boosted him into his iconic status.>>
SatAM's Sonic as well as his AoStH incarnation were exactly the obnoxious personalities I was refering to. It was probably tolerable and cool to children, but it's pretty insufferable to many older people, including me. And it wasn't one cartoon(especially one that didn't air in every country at the same time) that made him a icon. He reached icon status before that through the power of Sega's excellent marketing(which gave us a glimsp of his attitude), and the games being revered as AAA titles. It was because of that that led Sega to allow comics, cartoons, toys, and hot air balloons to be made from the franchise.
Also, I don't think casting Jaleel White as Sonic for SA1 would really effect the success of that game seeing that he voiced Sonic in Sonic Underground, and that didn't do crap to help that show to become popular.
The closest you are going to get with Sonic having "a 'tude" through vocalization are some of the little cutscenes in the storybook series, certain responses in SonicChronicles, and that annoying "YOU'RE TOO SLOOOOW!" taunt in SSBB.
That said this and this are the best animated interperations of Sonic, and it says a lot more about the character than 90's celeb voices or B-rated VAs ever did.
<<Agreed, as well, as also noting, this, in my opinion, is what lead to the demise of Sega....>>
I believe several factors are what led to where Sega is now today.
First off, there were internal conflict between the Japanese and American branches--mostly revolved around the development and marketing of software and hardware. I mean, I heard that both branches were as if they were rivaling companies. There was just this sense of non-unity which led to many misteps such as the Sega/Mega CD, the 32X, and the Saturn's price to name a few.
Second, Sega bled money. Even their arguably most successful console, the Mega Drive/Genesis, bled money. They are still lossing tons of money even to this day. Thoughout their life since developing home consoles, they just couldn't keep a decent profit to stay in the black. They have a terrible sense of money managemnt, or they are just cursed.
Third, Sega lost the ability to properly market their games and consoles. Sega was seen as the cool kids console(at least in the West) due to their successful marketing campain in the early 90's. They started to stumble when Tom Kalinske was let go/replaced with Bernie Stolar and they priced the Saturn far too above the range of acceptable(at the time) for home console. It really didn't help that their two competitors had/promised better looking 3D games when they were gaining in popularity at a much cheaper price. I would also add that Sony took away a significant amount of Sega's market with the PS1--moreso than the N64, and plus a completely new audience due to the large varity of its library.
As for your iconic arguement, I don't think Jet Set Radio or Shenmue is any less iconic than Ecco or Ristar(espcially seeing that Ristar wasn't really that much of a financial success). It's mainly because of the combination of the above factors, plus piracy issues, important 3rd parties dropping support of the DC, the changed in the market, and the upcoming hype train of the PS2 is what killed the DC.
<<Oddly enough though, I'm not sure what flaws people found in Sonic 06'.>>
I think it's better to just watch this instead of reading a detailed explaination here of why Sonic '06 was hated so much, and why many people even outside of the Sonic community consider it the low point of the series. It's not just about the godawful plot...
Even though I'm not a fan of Sonic Unleashed, I have to agree with many, many people overall it is a step in the right direction. I'll take colorful worlds, non-broken controls, short loading times, a relatively light-hearted storyline, cartoony humans, and a greatly diminshed cast over the crap found in Sonic 2K6.
Yeah. The plot summary is:
Princess Elise gets captured by Eggman 50 times while that dumb hedgehog Silver keeps mistaking Sonic for an "Eblis Trigger" and fighting him. Then Sonic needs to go save Elise. 50 times.
Wow Silv, you are taking me back... to when people actually discussed things. 😛 I love it, so thanks a ton!
1.)-Lack of Personality
2.) -Lots of new ideas, but not enough work put into them.
Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 brought a lot of new styles of gameplay to the table, never previously seen before in Sonic games. Treasure Hunting, shooting, etc. Reactions to both were mixed, and ever since then, Sega would try new ideas, or even try to take it back to old styles. They've tried everything from controlling three characters at once, incorporating guns and vehicles, steering a Wii Mote, hoover board racing, side-scrolling games...while all ideas had potential, I think they focused too much on having new ideas, but not enough on making them work. Any real gamer could agree that any idea as crazy as it sounds could make a good game, if done right(like say Katamari...come on? Sounds crazy! But it worked). And any idea, as genius as it sounds, is doomed to fail, if not done right.
4.) Quit the rush jobs.
5.) They just don't care anymore
It all boils down to this. There's no more soul. They've just given up. Even though they started getting lazy after SA2, I truely believe that after Shadow the Hedgehog, they just stopped caring altogether.
I agree, and quote 2 for truth.
Note that there may be significance to when they got lazy.
SA was simplistic but very polished, designed to be a system console seller.
SA2 improved the basics but did some things wrong. It is probably not a coincidence that the game was intended to release on Sonic's 10th anniversary (thus forcing them to rush), and that this drop in quality control happened just as SEGA announced 3rd party status.
Sonic Heroes was conceptually a triumph, accomplishing much of what I had been wanting since S3&K. Fan anticipation was through the roof and media previews were very positive. However, not only was it the first large 3rd party Sonic game, but SEGA got acquired by the poorly run Sammy during development. There was also a rush to get it released at Christmas. Quality control was ignored because of these things. The fans became angry and SEGA made a mistake that doomed the series: they listened, and went in another direction rather than simply improving quality.
Since Sammy, the series has gone into laughably derivative territory.
3.) -Making it up as they go along
Mario was iconic for his one-liners, Sonic was iconic for his personality. Mario's storylines were entertaining in their simplicity. Sonic's however, had a little more depth. The key isn't to kill the storyline to simplicity, but actually think it out. If Sega actually decided to write the stories for the next five Sonic games ahead of time, and actually string them together piece by piece, as opposed to just making up the next thing as they go along, and accidentally find themselves repeating constant formulas, it would actually keep people drooling for the next installment to the series.
Mario has never been iconic for one-liners, and Sonic stories have never had depth. The story is not much of a big deal if it doesn't annoy the audience. Do you know what happens if you tell SEGA to make a Sonic story with depth? You get vomit inducing cliche, as evidenced by Shadow and SonicNEXT.
I think that their repetition of formulas is intentional. Sonic Adventure's story was popular, so they made half the games since then have basically the same plot. Eggman unleashes some kind of ancient peril and then Sonic has to save him and everybody. It is yet more of their risk-averse cheap banality.
They would need to completely reboot the series.
Do I have to remind you of what happened the last time they tried to reboot?
I do think however, he does need to at least develop some type of wise-crackin' personality, to some extent, if not to the extent of SatAM Sonic SatAM's Sonic never made me cringe. He was amusing.
Never made you cringe? Do it to it! Gotta speed keed!
Kids are a lot less curmedgeonly than teens and adults, who tend to be insecure about their entertainment and afraid of admitting they like something if it sounds stupid, while many kids may know it's stupid and not care because it's entertaining.
I don't validate such pretention (for example, I like the Sonic Heroes story even though a lot of the dialogue is embarassing), and recognize some of what made SatAM popular with those who weren't fans, but there is a lot about it that would get an even MORE negative reaction if SEGA copied it.
And while SatAM had nothing to do with SegaSonic, well, back then it wasn't so apparent, since the games has the lack of storyline and dialogue to directly contradict it, as it started to in the next decade. It's safe to say his SatAM persona greatly boosted him into his iconic status. It's how people got to know him, it's how people came to love him(his character, as opposed to the entire franchise in general), and personally, if it worked, even though it wasn't canon, they should have stuck with it.
I'm guessing that you started with SatAM. It's how many people got to know Sonic, but I hated how unfaithful it was. SatAM was the unusual licensed series that actually expanded the audience of the original, which led to universe flame wars back in the early years of the Sonic online community. There was no sticking with it since that was not (even close to) what the games were. I can certainly understand fans wanting it represented, even if just a personality, but many would notlike that, which brings me to the next point:
I think if they casted Jaleel White as Sonic's voice in Sonic Adventure, they may have seen more success. Because yes, while we Sonic fans know that the games and every TV show, movie, and comic, are seperate continuties, made by completely different people, the mainstream world, and casual gamers found themselves with an unfamiliar Sonic when SA1 rolled around. Combining this with the fact that we hadn't seen a true Sonic title since S&K, and people find themselves with a very unfamiliar Sonic character and world. And as much as I loved Sonic Adventure for so many reasons, as do most Sonic fans, I feel that Sonic Adventure cut off and confused a lot of casual gamers.
AB often says that the Sonic characters should not speak much, and this is why that technique is powerful. The audience can project their own interpretations on the scenes and get their preferred personality, which also emphasizes one of Sonic's greatest strengths: exceptionally cool and distinctive character designs.
The mega drive games were open to enough interpretation that fans of either cartoon could accept them as what they knew, and people coming to the games first could interpret whatever they wanted. That is why Sonic was legitimately cool. His design and animations evoked just enough personality that you could define what cool meant to you. It is why I like Espio and Vector: they had very expressive and unique animations that made them right in line with what makes the series work and let me interpret the optimal personalities for my tastes, unlike most of the cast since SA.
Some common complaints are that it went away from SatAM, or he should be called Robotnik, or that Tails became too much of a techie, but as we know that was how the characters have always been. Those complaints were not there until Sonic started talking and the ambiguity was screwed up.
Can you imagine how awkward it would be if Mario started chatting it up about how he would bring an end to Bowser's evil? He doesn't even talk in the RPGs.
Because thing is, a lot of casual gamers, and critis actually hated Sonic Sonic Adventure, as it recieved mixed reviews.
SA and to a lesser extent SA2 were critically acclaimed at release, and their ports were not. The reason is simple. SA was the first major 3D platformer to have good graphics. Until the DC 3D capable consoles had consideably less attractive graphics than the 16 bit consoles had even at launch. Super Mart World and mega drive Sonic are far more attractive and detailed than Siper Mario 64, as an example.
However, they lacked that iconic lineup of Sega titles that Nintendo really pumped. I feel that had Sega used Nintendo's strategy, keeping their icons alive, to have a Super Smash Bros. roster that most people would have heard of, they might have stayed in the console race. Any casual gamer these days can identify Donkey Kong, Pokemon, Star Fox, Metroid, and several other iconic titles with Nintendo. Not many other titles come to the mainstream's mind other than Sonic, when the word "Sega" is uttered.
While it would not have kept them in the console race (what AB said), I agree that they would have been much better served to develop their franchises. I find it a total joke that the likes of amigo and billy hatcher are represented in the so-called "SEGA all stars."
The level designs in general were simply gorgeous, and they really let you branch out and explore. Not to mention it had some of the best songs I had ever heard in any Sonic games. Come on, Aquatic Base? Crisis City? White Acropolis? Fantastic.
The music is definitely the game's primary redeeming feature. I've only watched videos of it rather than playing it, but the levels looked very linear.
<<While it would not have kept them in the console race (what AB said), I agree that they would have been much better served to develop their franchises. I find it a total joke that the likes of amigo and billy hatcher are represented in the so-called "SEGA all stars.">>
Thing is, Sega did attempt to revive there older franchises several times during this gen and last, but they were either deviate extremely far from the orginal franchise(any post-Saturn Shining Force), met with some mixed reception like Shinobi PS2, or ended up as a steaming pile of dung like Golden Axe: Beast Rider. I think the problem is that many of the people who worked on these franchises have moved on to a different position at Sega or left the company altogether.
Examples: Spy Hunter, and Alien Syndrome. Spy Hunter 2 just came out, and of course since Spy Hunter was like in earlier days, the two are far different. I never played SH2 but I have seen it and its 3-D graphics so... far different. The new PSP Alien Syndrome remake is almost entirely the same as the origninal but with better graphics. Actually, scratch that- The new one is far more complicated. (Which is bad- the original was hard as it is.)
AB, the video you linked me to on Sonic 06 didn't load, but I read the introduction, and I must say, along with the vast majority of people who agree with those points, most points knocking the game at least to me, just sound overly exaggerated. I get what he's saying, about how reviews constantly bash a Sonic game on every aspect, you play it, and realize, well, that wasn't so bad, and it had it's charms.
Yes, I'll admit, there were a lot of things with the game's plots that were just...gross? However, I still stand on the fact that the gameplay, level design, and overall style of the game were spot on, and that they need to make more Sonic games play, look, and feel like that.
Sonic Unleashed was to me, more of the train wreck that buried the dying series. To me, from the trailers and gameplay footage, it looked like there was no way they could mess it up. It looked amazing. When I went to buy the game at Gamespot, I got the generic clerk trying to talk me out of buying the game. But I've heard all the bashing before, and didn't care. My mindless fanboyism always figures, "Even if the game sucks, it's good to have at least for the sake of collecting." Right?
For the first time in my life, I returned this Sonic game the very next day. Or wait, it was a new game, and I opened it. So I couldn't return it. So the game that I spent fifty bucks on, I sold back to them for fourteen. It was just so bad, I didn't even wanna have it.
I really thought that when they made Sonic Heroes, they couldn't get it any worse. It's funny how I look back at SA2 now, and think that it's a good game compared to everything we've had. But I clearly remember not liking it when it came out. But in comparison to Heroes and Unleashed, it really is a good game. Ever since SA2, I didn't like the direction the series was headed in, but I still found charms to games like Sonic 06, Sonic Rider, heck, even Shadow the Hedgehog, that kept me coming back to it(and I actually thought Sonic Riders Zero Gravity was a well developed racing game with a lot of depth to it, though many people disagree).
But Sonic Unleashed... they really buried it. The game was unplayable and awful in every aspect. It's a struggle just having to talk to every cartoony human in town just to actually be allowed to START the level. And then when you do, you're constantly stopped by that little rat, who has to stop and state the obvious in a very long tutorial-like fashion. Then rush through a poorly designed level...it ends before you know what happened, and then you have to repeat the level for some odd reason...
Complete trash.
Like, I dunno. At least with Sonic 06, I felt like I was actually playing a video game. It's really hard to describe my experience with Sonic Unleashed. Like, I'm just really not even sure what was going on. All I knew was that I was pissed.
Storyline, I never said it had to have depth. Depth in the sense that it questions life itself, and Sonic is forced to watch his loved ones suffer, die, and all that constant cliche garbage. Sonic Adventure's story was simple in it's own respect. Robotnik is collecting the Chaos Emeralds to create a monster, destroy the world, and take over what's left of it. Noting too special, eh? But it still managed to capture the spirit of an adventure.
There doesn't have to be crazy depth, however, had the wrote out the stories for a few games ahead of time, they could have done a lot more with them.
For example, why not have Robotnik killed off after SA2 for some odd reason. Sonic Heroes could have been a Sonic and Tails exclusive game about them trying to thwart Metal Sonic, who has taken over the Eggman Empire in Eggman's absence, with no appearance by Shadow. Then, the following year, while Shadow is still assumed dead, bring him back by announcing the new game, Shadow the Hedgehog. Maybe if they at least waited ONE game, instead of saying, "BACK BY POPULAR DEMAND, SHADOW!!!!" his return would have been at least somewhat appreciated. I really don't feel that not having him in Sonic Heroes would have hurt sales.
Shadow the Hedgehog could have focused on Shadow's fight with Black Doom... not have Sonic in this game at all(I'm sorry, but even though it was Shadow's game... an alien race is destroying Earth, Sonic is RIGHT there... why am I not playing as him?). Then afterward, have a new Sonic game. Bring back Robotnik, who's fueding with Metal Sonic who won't give back control of the Empire, against Black Doom. Three major entities fighting for control of the planet. And then there's GUN, fighting for Earth. And in the mix, you have Sonic, Shadow, and the whole crew, having to take a side.
I'm not saying that's what has to happen. I just came up with it off the top of my head. They could have any type of story planned out. Just gimme something. Nothing too deep or anime cliche. Just your typical good guy vs. bad guy. Only at then end of each game, it makes you wonder, "Oh man, what is this building up to?" And it does build up anticipation for the next game.
Like, in a lot of games, especially Shadow the Hedgehog. Like, I thought his origins were already explained in SA2. But no, Shadow winning some online poll on Sega's site(in which I voted for Knuckles) was the basis of the entire game, and they just made up some trash to pass off as a storyline to further market the new hog.
... lame.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/Pokecapn/videos/1/
You mean this one? The video seems to work fine. It's actually the first of many. 50+
I know. The thing we keep saying over and over is that Sonic is a good game and Sega could have done alot to keep it cool, but they made a bunch of unwanted changes then started cutting corners. Now, they are out of the console race completely, they are bleeding money as mentionned before, they make the most suckish games out of all the major game companies. Gee, do you think they went a bit wrong somewhere along the road?
I know. The thing we keep saying over and over is that Sonic is a good game and Sega could have done alot to keep it cool, but they made a bunch of unwanted changes then started cutting corners. Now, they are out of the console race completely, they are bleeding money as mentionned before, they make the most suckish games out of all the major game companies. Gee, do you think they went a bit wrong somewhere along the road?
Silv, it's not one video. It's several videos and they are under the "UPDATES" text. The viddler links work. Also, I find it hard to believe that you don't see any problems with the technical designs of the game such as the abyssmal loading times and the glitchy-ness thoughout the game. I mean how the hell can you defend crap like this? And I still don't see how Sonic 2K6 nailed a definative style of Sonic considering he is a cartoony blue hedgehog that usually races in very colorful worlds, instead of being portrayed as a dwarf in a mascot costume surrounded by creepy Real Dolls in a bland, gray-tinted world.
Also, I'm curious as to which very of Unleashed you played since there is a vast difference between the PS360 and the Wii/PS2 versions.
Last you seem to be still under the impression that Sega/Sonic Team has the ability or gives a crap to have some epic storyline to Sonic. Like Vec mentioned, they don't and they shouldn't. I mean you even admitted that Sonic 2K6's plot was vomit-inducing. 
I mean in every "what's wrong Sonic" list that everybody and their grandparents type out in their gaming blog lists "Sonic attempts on deep plots" or some other variant right next to "too many damn characters" and "rushed production". Something like "Robotnik being killed" is already on it's way to failure to be appealing to a lot of people for this series. Again, this is about a cartoon hedgehog that was Sega's response to Mario. It doesn't need any lame arcs and a deep plot should be the last things on the developers' mind for this franchise.
If you want to see Sonic with long and serious story arcs, well, there is always the option of reading the comics.
LWSrocks:
<<I know. The thing we keep saying over and over is that Sonic is a good game and Sega could have done alot to keep it cool, but they made a bunch of unwanted changes then started cutting corners. Now, they are out of the console race completely, they are bleeding money as mentionned before, they make the most suckish games out of all the major game companies. Gee, do you think they went a bit wrong somewhere along the road?>>
Not really. Sonic may suck, but overall, they are still pretty decent developers and publishers in general this generation--much better than mid-to-late last gen. Ubisoft is much worse.
IDK, I wouldn't exactly consider Ubisoft one of the major game companies.
Now I've seen and played many bad games in my time, and youtube has opened my eyes to many other terrible games. Sonic 06' just doesn't seem to fit that bill for me. Yes, I'll admit, Silver's game style was slow-paced, and more often than not, boring, and unentertaining. But I can say without batting my eyes, that I had a blast going through Sonic and Shadow's stages. Playing through White Acropolis and Crisis City...oh Crisis City.
Those links you posted showing the cutscenes from Sonic CD. Since I saw the opening animation of Sonic CD, I always longed for a Sonic game where you can do...well, all that cool stuff in the game. And Sonic 06 really seemed to finally be the game to touch those grounds.
The storyline made me puke for reasons I listed before. Most importantly, Sonic's lack of involvement in the overall plot, and the romance of a two foot hedgehog and a five foot human woman. However, I did find the whole Iblis and Mephilis story arc to be interesting. The epic boss battles, even Omega. I don't know why, I just thoroughly enjoyed having him having my back in that game. The story had potential to be amazing, but Sega really just pulled a lot of gags in it, that was just like, "Come on guys... seriously? This isn't rocket science. Did you really have to recruit writers from fanfiction.net?"
Oh yeah, another thing that bugged me about that game is that twice, Sonic encountered Silver, and on BOTH encounters, Silver uses Sonic as a mop. Then when Shadow comes along, he does just that to Silver. It really showed that they established a ranking system in their minds that goes like this:
Shadow >>> Silver >>> Sonic
Hm... and I wonder where that leaves the once almighty Knuckles? Sad really.
But I still stick with my love for Sonic and Shadow's gameplay, the level design, the music, and overall look. Yes, I do understand your point about how the world seemed a bit, gray-shaded. However, I'd once again have to argue how that isn't necessarily out of place for a Sonic game. Colorful worlds and level designs? Sure, Sonic games are loaded with those. But many are also filled with that very same grey-shaded look that Sonic 06' had. One perfect example, was Sonic 1 for the Sega Genesis. Very dull compared to the much brighter Sonic 2 and 3. However, some levels in Sonic 2, such as Chemical Plant Zone, and Mystic Cave had that dull Sonic 06' atmosphere. As did pretty much all of Sonic CD. Also, while SA2 had a very different look from Sonic 06, it seemed a lot more on that gray side(aside from City Escape) compared to the much brighter, Sonic Adventure, as did Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity.
Many Sonic games' worlds were on the dull side as opposed to being bright and cheery looking. Still, yes, many games were bright and cheery looking. But one thing that you can obviously point out about every Sonic game, is that nearly every single one has a drastically different look and feel to it.
Sonic 1,2, and Sonic CD can be grouped together on having a similar look. Sonic 3&K together are in their own category. Sonic Adventure had a very distinctive look that no other Sonic game has mimicked. As does Sonic Adventure 2.
Aside from the two groups first listed, no two Sonic games really look the same. So why is it some special case for Sonic 06? I don't think that the game's look is specifically the problem, but more so that Sega can't exactly decide on a look for the series, let alone a somewhat universal design for Sonic.
As for Sonic Unleashed, I bought a Wii version. And if the Wii version is drastically different from the Xbox and PS3 versions, then... well. How exactly? Because the one I played, was pretty terrible. Unless the other versions were some completely different game altogether, I'd find it hard to believe that either were any better.
The way I heard it (really, ignore me and talk to someone who knows) is that in the PS3 and 360 version, the Sonic levels were a little longer and more complex, and the Werehog levels were at worst hateful and at best boring. In the Wii and PS2 version, the Sonic levels are a little more spectacle and a little less complex, and the Werehog levels were just boring. The PS360 (lol) version had hub worlds for each nation, and the WiiS2 (rofl) version just had Phoenix Wright-esque character encounters in each world, where you had to ask around until the plot advanced. Also, medals had to be found in the hubs and levels in the PS360, where you earned them by doing stuff in-level in the WiiS2 version.
<<Now I've seen and played many bad games in my time, and youtube has opened my eyes to many other terrible games. Sonic 06' just doesn't seem to fit that bill for me. Yes, I'll admit, Silver's game style was slow-paced, and more often than not, boring, and unentertaining. But I can say without batting my eyes, that I had a blast going through Sonic and Shadow's stages. Playing through White Acropolis and Crisis City...oh Crisis City.>>
Yeah man, this game totally sounds like a real blast! Indeed.
<<The storyline made me puke for reasons I listed before. Most importantly, Sonic's lack of involvement in the overall plot, and the romance of a two foot hedgehog and a five foot human woman. However, I did find the whole Iblis and Mephilis story arc to be interesting. The epic boss battles, even Omega. I don't know why, I just thoroughly enjoyed having him having my back in that game. The story had potential to be amazing, but Sega really just pulled a lot of gags in it, that was just like, "Come on guys... seriously? This isn't rocket science. Did you really have to recruit writers from fanfiction.net?">>
Funny you should say this, because I think the Mephilis/Iblis, Shadow, and Silver epic schlock feels like it came from the pit known as fanfiction.net.
<<Many Sonic games' worlds were on the dull side as opposed to being bright and cheery looking. Still, yes, many games were bright and cheery looking. But one thing that you can obviously point out about every Sonic game, is that nearly every single one has a drastically different look and feel to it.
Sonic 1,2, and Sonic CD can be grouped together on having a similar look. Sonic 3&K together are in their own category. Sonic Adventure had a very distinctive look that no other Sonic game has mimicked. As does Sonic Adventure 2.>>
I understand what you mean by they Sonic games having a distinction between them and I do agree. Sonic 1 throgh CD were more abstract, while Sonic 3&K took a comparative realistic approach. AnHowever, even then the vast majority of Sonic games had the large saturation of color(just look at the vast catalog from the MD/Genesis games to the DS titles), which was mainly toned down or muted in Sonic 2K6 even much more so than any of the SA titles.
<< So why is it some special case for Sonic 06? I don't think that the game's look is specifically the problem, but more so that Sega can't exactly decide on a look for the series, let alone a somewhat universal design for Sonic.>>
Why is it a special case for Sonic 06? Because it is ugly and as I mentioned before the FF rejects of humans clashes with Sonic and his multi-color friends. Also, I think Sonic Team seems to get that Sonic doesn't need to be in a world that looks like Sonic 2K6.
As for the difference between the SU versions, Turtle guy already mentioned most of them. In addtion, the PS360 version looks better, Sonic Team made the HD version as opposed to Dimps making the SD one, normal enemies regain their health in the HD version if you screw up the attack QTE, and there is an unfortunate QTE minigame involving the Tornado in the HD version. However, it is probably best if you watched a Let's Play of the 360 version of Sonic Unleashed, played by the same guys who did the Sonic 2K6 LP. The difference between their reaction to SU compared to Sonic 2K6 is staggering.
Omg... that dolphin was SO SA1... Wow.
It was trying to be, anyway. What it actually DID is totally offend its memory. =P
Holy Snikerdoodles I had no idea they did a LP of Unleashed!
*watching nooooow!*
Well, it seems our feelings on Sonic 06, and Sonic Unleashed a strong, and differing. Nothing more I can really add or contest. Which brings me to another question on the whole topic of recent Sonic Team activity.
Thoughts on Sonic based party games? They've been into this whole Mario and Sonic at the Olympics. And not so far back they released a follow-up on Sonic Riders. As a fan of party games in general, I wouldn't mind seeing them do more of these. The original Sonic Riders, I had a decent time with, but will openly admit that I probably never would have given it the time of day had Sonic's name not been in the title.
However, Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity on the Wii, I had a lot more fun with. Granted, it never saw the four-player party bashes that Mario Kart 64 and MK: Wii have seen. I thought the entire physics of the game kept it action-packed. I had one good party experience with it, the day I bought it with another gaming partner. We treated the story mode like we would any old platformer, passing the controller over every time we passed a level, or died. The overall experience well... was awesome. However, I think the one thing that held it back from being as cherished as the Mario Kart series was the lack of real interaction between racers that you'd find in Mario Kart, or even Crash Team Racing.
I'm sure most people wouldn't be heartbroken if they never saw another Sonic Riders game again, but I think they should keep em' coming.
Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games... I will admit, I wasn't too into this at all, until I actually got four people in on it. It had to be one of the most fun competitive party games I've ever played with four people. The javelin throw, skeet shooting, and the swimming especially. And when one has a vast cast of Miis, such as myself, (including, but not limited to, Joker, Venom, Snoopy, Snoop Dogg, The Rock, Austin, Triple H, Hogan, Iron Man, Spidey, Robo Cop, Harry Potter, and Barack Obama), you got yourself a winner.
Feelings about party titles are mixed, however, I feel that including Sonic and the cast in party games during any downtime from regular titles, definitely keeps the series alive and fun. Perhaps that's just what Sega needs. I mean, between S&K, and Sonic Adventure, we never saw a single true Sonic title, aside from some racing games, and game gear titles. Maybe what the series needs is a little downtime. Keep Sonic in the gamer's living room with the party games, and wait til the next generation of consoles before releasing another major title. But start working on it like...say, NOW?
I'm definitely on the Mario and Sonic at the Winter Olympics bandwagon... at least we can look forward to that.
Admittedly, those guys who are playing it suck horribly. Their suckage kind of exaggerates the stupid into comically stupid. I can see why Silv said it reminded him of the Sonic CD cutscenes, but it's too scripted to be called a good game. I'd rather be able to do the Sonic CD cutscenes at will than as quick time events.
Mystic Cave is one of the more vibrant and stylized stages of Sonic 2, and even Chemical Plant and Scrap Brain are artistically interesting.
Oh yeah, another thing that bugged me about that game is that twice, Sonic encountered Silver, and on BOTH encounters, Silver uses Sonic as a mop. Then when Shadow comes along, he does just that to Silver. It really showed that they established a ranking system in their minds that goes like this:
Shadow >>> Silver >>> Sonic
Shadow is just a Mary Sue recolor. Silver is just a bad joke. I guess they wanted to force them into appearing awesome like bad fic writers do.
Of course Mephiles is a recolor of a recolor.
Elise is... I think that the most accurate yet is Real Doll as AB said. And the orange hose looks bleepin ridiculous. Every time she comes to the screen I'm wondering why anybody thought she should have orange legs. The way she moves is one of the creepiest things I've ever seen in a game too.
Silv, I think you are a super awesome poster, and the best newbie we've had in ages, so I don't want to scare you off with disagreements, but what do you like about the level design? The music is the high point of the whole thing, but the videos I've watched don't show any but the most trivial branching.
Yeah, I was just thinking that this guy was so much more lucid than the guys we usually get around here.
IDK what you were talking about with all that "Real Doll" and "orange hose" stuff... huh?
Feelings about party titles are mixed, however, I feel that including Sonic and the cast in party games during any downtime from regular titles, definitely keeps the series alive and fun. Perhaps that's just what Sega needs. I mean, between S&K, and Sonic Adventure, we never saw a single true Sonic title, aside from some racing games, and game gear titles. Maybe what the series needs is a little downtime. Keep Sonic in the gamer's living room with the party games, and wait til the next generation of consoles before releasing another major title. But start working on it like...say, NOW?
I'm not sure if this is a good idea. I mean sure, releasing tons of party games might keep the series alive, but for who? Most likely, just young children instead of being suitable for everyone. I mean the franchise is at a point where it is preceived as something that is lumped with the Imagine games or titles that are based on Nicktoons. The spin-off party/sports titles never been well-recieved, even during the height of Sonic's popularity because they were seen as inferior, "me too" titles. The are probably generally looked at with even more disdain due to the response the main games have recieved from the general gaming community. And after that, would many older people still care enough about Sonic to play this hypothetical great platformer for themselves(assuming Sega hands out review copies to gaming sites), or will it be something to toss to their children(assuming kids will still care about Sonic)?
Party games are exactly what we DON'T need. When will Sega realize it's time to get back to basics and make a Genesis-like game. That's what we all want!
^I like how you speak for every Sonic fan in existence.
Even if a new Sonic game is "Genesis-like" that doesn't mean it'll automatically be good (see GBA Sonic 1)
Well, I think maybe a game that isn't all "Tall Sonic, Dr. Eggman, Gadgety Tails, Plots that have alot of Chaos Emerald bases and complications" and go back to "Short chubby Sonic, Dr. Robotnik, Cute little Tails, Basic plots that are about Robotnik capturing cute little critters"
Lets not forget little lighthearted sidescrollers that are short in complexity and large in funn!
