Alright, sorry!
I'm jus' saying what I call the Metal Sonics in case anyone cared...which they don't but, at it makes it easier incase you wanna know what Metal Sonic I'm talking about...
*deep breath*
Anyway, lucky you guys, us here in the UK only have a small Demo to play until FEB 06
I'm rather disappointed with the storyline in Heroes. It makes verrry little sense, and Shadow isn't explained, and there's so many plotholes and *explodes* @.x;
For example...
How did the numerous teams get to the deck of that airship in the Egg Fleet level? I mean, weren't they just in some kind of freaky castle? (And how did they get -there-?)
Not to mention the teams all fight the same bosses (with the exception of the other teams, the battles with Metal Sonic, and the slight variations in the Robot Carnival and Robot Storm levels)...Did Metal Sonic build 4 identical flying robot/airship boss things or something?
oo And how were the same bases destroyed more than once? (Bullet Station, and the one in the main airship thing)
@_@ Far too many plotholes. However, the bit of story and the final fight with Metal 'n stuff made all the other stuff, IMO, totally worth having to be confused over.
oo So...yeah. >>;
*wanders away*
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How did the numerous teams get to the deck of that airship in the Egg Fleet level? I mean, weren't they just in some kind of freaky castle? (And how did they get -there-?)
There are no segues between some stages, much like Sonic 1 and 2. They just 'appear' at their next destination. How they get wherever is left up to the imagination.
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I mean, weren't they just in some kind of freaky castle?
Frog Forest comes after Mystic Mansion.
Phantom Editor: You fool! You've got it backwards!
Uh... oops. ^^;
I can't explain the Team/Stage/Boss discrepancies, nor do I wish to. Nothing I come up with works well, in context.
Phantom Editor: Still, you could just say that they were all tackling the stages at the same time, which explains how Teams end up battling each other.
Fine, whatever.
Phantom Editor: Sucker.
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There are no segues between some stages, much like Sonic 1 and 2. They just 'appear' at their next destination. How they get wherever is left up to the imagination.
And that was fine for Sonic 1 and 2. The technology of the day wouldnt've allowed for much in the way of cutscenes, anyway. And besides, those games weren't nearly as story-driven as the more recent ones, including Heroes.
I'm just trying to say that I found it bothersome that they didn't even try to explain how the characters got from one area to the next, save for the occasional (and, IMO, weak) "We followed such and such here" excuse.
...Then again, this game WAS supposed to go back to Sonic's roots, so maybe lacking such explanations was a part of that. XP
Once again the immortal words will be spoken...
They should've done it like Sonic 3.
Thats funny Metal..."The non cutscenes are part of them going back to the roots."
I agree VCP S3&K did a great job with showing how they got to their locations. I too am disappointed about the storyline(that never was). I guess I was expecting a Shadow storyline driven game.*shot* Maybe they'll make another game that takes place..umm..right after SA2 but before SH explaining what everyone wants explained. *kicked many times*
Or a game that goes in between SH and SBattle to explain exactly whether Shadow is still a Clone or the real deal...
I have a couple of theories,
1)It must be the real Shadow from SA2. he must have used a fake emerald he got from ARK and that explains why he has it in the team blast.
2)Omega is goind to eleminate allof Eggman's robots. So when he picks up Metal in the end maybe he is going to destroy it. He even said that his new mission was to destroy Metal Sonic. He obviously is obsessed with his missions so he will finish destroying Metal Sonic.
3)This one is a question, why is Sonic and everyone not as suprised to Shadow!? They saw him DIE! I would be alot more suprised if I saw a friend die and then he is suddenly alive again. Ah well I am out of breath now.
Any Shadow or Shadow clone could have obtained a fake emerald. But I don't think it matters, anyway, the inclusion of the Chaos Emerald was probably just an oversight on the part of Sonic Team.
Omega never said that his new mission was to destroy Metal. He said that Metal Sonic was his new target, which doesn't necessarily mean he intends to destroy him.
About being surprised to see shadow, Sonic says "Talk about stubborn and full of surprises," which must be referring to Shadow. Knuckles also comments (jokingly) that it may be Shadow's ghost.
just finished the game, this is ESPIO btw adding my 2 cents...
i thought this game was a hellof a lot like sonic adventure play wise, which isnt a bad thing at all, i am glad they made the game easy to play for my little sister*team rose* and still managed to annoy me with the stupid chaos emerald lvs. my only real complaints were the same stupid glitches in the game as in sa2 and sa, *ntm s1-s3&k* the fact that sonic would fall through walls, and do other stupid things like that when u are going fast, but it was still pretty cool. I cant wait for the next one, k splitting the site talk to you all later...
*Ps hey admins, whats up?
In my opinion, it all depends on Whether the Shadow Clones were made before or after Sa2.
In Sonic Battle, Shadow has flashbacks to when Eggman released him
"So Shadow...You are the Military's top secret weapon?"
And later on in the game
Sonic: "I seem to recall you saving the world once before?"
Shadow: "That was for Maria"
So if the clones were made before SA2, then the one in Battle and Heroes is the Original Shadow.
If the clones were made After SA2, then the one in Heroes and Battle is a clone (with the Original Shadow's memories)
I haven't played Battle at all, so I can't really make an educated guess about Shadow's present existence. Just take this from the standpoint of someone who has only beaten Heroes. I do believe that the Shadow traveling with Rouge and Omega is the real Shadow, but maybe his memories were just tampered with by Eggman/Metal Sonic to make him lose self-confidence when he was questioned by others and didn't have the answers to such questions. Otherwise, the remaining Shadows are either clones and/or robots. The ones in the tanks at the end of Team Dark's storyline appear to be clones, because of the liquid capsules, but the destroyed Shadow robot at the end of Rail Canyon seems to suggest otherwise. I was disappointed with the plot all the way through until I got to the ending, which just blew my mind away with its supercoolness. Still, I would suggest that Sonic Team either cut the story altogether or make it exciting all the way through.
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The ones in the tanks at the end of Team Dark's storyline appear to be clones, because of the liquid capsules,
The Shadow that travels with Rouge and Omega was also in a "liquid capsule". From what I remember, he was also alone in that room, so questions arise yet again.
True, although the Shadow that went with Rouge and Omega was completely separated from the others, wasn't he? This would make me think that he was either the original or the first successful attempt at cloning the real Shadow.
So do you think the clones were made After SA2?
Because if not, then the one that Eggman released in SA2 would be the original.
I think the Shadow that you play as is the original because Omega believes he is the original, and Omega's not the kind of guy I'd want to disagree with.
Seriously though, if Omega thought Shadow was one of Eggman's Robots, he would have shoved his little hedgehog tail off of a Rail at the Bullet Station, or Fire Dunked him into a bottomless pit.
Yes, I do think the clones were made after SA2. I think that Eggman found Shadow after his fall from the ARK and kept him in some sort of statsis tank, so he could study him, tamper with his memories and most importantly, find a way to clone the ultimate life form.
Yeah, I agree with you there...
Also I agree that the Shadow in Heroes and Battle is the real one.
Eee... here's a completely random and pointless theory (OMG N00b!!!)
It all comes back to Gerald, Though this theory is completely out of the blue, who else led Eggman to all these secrets in S3&K and beyond? What if Gerald had copied, his mind, and all of his memories, onto a hard-drive? ANd then infected various computer programs? He obviously had many attempts at the Ultimate life-form, Which is in essentialitty, a Perfect (Perfect=Ultimate) Chaos Clone. The Bio-lizard however, was obviously incomplete, and he didn't have time to build such a huge creature to completion, so he made a smaller but still as potent, Shadow to complete his plan to get his vengence upon the world.
In SOnic Heroes, Gerald has obviously managed to somehow "Possess" metal, and is using him to make an army of his Ultimate life-form, Shadow. And it even contributes more to this, if Eggman had gotten the idea for the E-100 series, thanks to Proffesor Gerald. Though that is quite doubtful.
Eeee, this is all speculation really. Who honestly knows what goes through Sonic Team's minds?
That's true. Sonic Team really left out a lot of important information. The game should use it's story to help why everything is happening and what's going on.
Hey Aldrius, I think the pic in your avatar is too big.
Nope, it's his name.
Aldrius, could you change your name to just plain "Aldrius" and then get a custom title that reads "Holder of the Millenium Idol"?
Actually, you're both right. The avatar is too wide based on the 120 pixels width max limit, but the problem here is truly the name length.
Er...sure I'll just set up a local account I guess. I'm sorry about this. ^^;;
Let's get back on the subject OK
Right without reading pages 2 and 3.
Eggman had decided that Metal Sonic was going to be the new hope for a reign of villiny but after he needed the Chaos data to go liquid. after getting the chao data from Chocola and Froggy new Evil Insane Metal Sonic after remebering that he was in a status tube for a while lock Eggman in that tower on the Whale Shark Ship.
Then through his Genius Eggman was able to create walkie talkies and was able to contact Team Chaotix to come and save him.
Eggman had found Shadows DNA or body and i think Metal Sonic cloned Shadow for his new army when he had the Ultimate Life Form data from Shadow. Because Chaotix had to destroy the Capsules on Bullet Station (i think).
Omega said During the Egg Emperor battle that He is the new face of Evil so I think Omega could very well be building up his own little army with Metal Sonic and Shadow for the next big story based Sonic Main Title thing (Adventure 3 or Heroes 2 or Something else 1)
Very difficult to understand that last post. But from what I did get, you think Metal Sonic wanted an army of Shadow clones for his evil? Where did you get that from? My understanding was that Metal Sonic just went out of control, and wanted Sonic dead. Simple as that, no? And the capsuls on Bullet Station, I don't think they had anything to do with Shadow.
That's right, Metal Sonic was made ONLY for the purpose of killing Sonic, his hatred for Sonic drove him to become the 'Metal Overlord' he is in Sonic Heroes...
As for Shadow, he DID have a room to himself, different to the others...
I think it's the real one, Rouge said he was a robot but she was only assuming because she thought that Shadow was dead...(lack of faith)
Omega was going to destroy the clones, but not the supposed 'clone' that was with him.
P.S. Rouge calls him a Robot, Omega calls him a clone, which is true?
Rouge was trying to trick Omega obviously... the expression on her face says it all. = She didn't think Shadow was a robot at all. Obviously, she is the one who holds the secret to Shadow's past. But what could that secret be, is the question.
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But from what I did get, you think Metal Sonic wanted an army of Shadow clones for his evil?
I said that really because we dont know how long Eggman was locked in that tower in the whale shark ship and is my opinion.
Should have said that really. sorry.
Who says the clones were meant for an army?
Probably because, there is no other obvious purpose for them.
Fair point, but they could be used for reasearch or... uh...
*runs*
The way I see it, after SA2, the Real Eggman finds Shadow and keeps him alive in his new base in Rail Canyon.
Eggman then makes millions of Shadow clones
If Metal Sonic had made the clones, he would already have the Ultimate Life Form data!
Still, why did Rouge tell Omega that Shadow was a robot, did she want Omega to kill Shadow as well or what?
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Still, why did Rouge tell Omega that Shadow was a robot, did she want Omega to kill Shadow as well or what?
Perhaps it's the other way round. As Omega's usefulness is over to Shadow and Rouge, and he seems pretty determined and convinced that he is actually the more powerful evil (he says something about being more evil than Eggman to Eggman in one of the bosses, I'm sure), that Rouge wants him gone, as whereas Omega wants to be evil, Rouge, and Shadow, don't. They just don't want to conform to normal Hero ideals.
For this reason, to prevent the risk of Omega going on some sort of homicidal streak, maybe Rouge tells him that Shadow is a robot, so he'll attack Shadow, and Shadow will be forced to destroy him in self-defense (because, let's face it, as tough as Omega is, Shadow's still the more powerful of the two).
Of course, I don't think that Rouge wants any of them dead personally, and that the whole reference to telling Omega that Shadow is a robot has a completely different purpose, but it's still a possible explanation.
True...but I dunno, It's hard to tell, I don't think any of them are certain, just like all of us...
o.O Ok, I beat the game a few days ago--Didn't like the ending too much. Too campy for me-but then again, this is Sonic.
No still.. too campy.
Now, before I even try to toss out theories, I need something answered.
1) Just WHY were Froggy and Chocola {O man >< SCREW Chocola..I have ISSUES with Chao..} absorbed. I'm not understanding why Metal Sonic thought them to be vital. Chaos data? o.O Not really...unless I missed something by not playing SA(dvance)2 because I absolutely despise Cream ><. Frgooy--yeah still Froggy data dosen't help as well.
2) This whole Shadow Clone buisness. o.o That's the real one. Omega said that the original exists somewhere. And even as cold as Omega was, he didn't blow up the Shadow they were working with. So yeah, for all intensive purposes, Ima say that's the #1 Shadow until proven otherwise.
3) Got a problem with the OPENING for SH. K, Tails and Knux are in the Tornado two. Give Sonic the note. Sonic speeds up..Knux and Tails follow after...
LEAVING THE PLANE TO CRASH AND BURN!
WHAT SENSE ><!! WHERE IS THE SENSE! We spend ALL this time building the T2 in SA1, and making sure it dosen't bite the dust in SA2--only to blow it out NOW! In the BEGINNING of the GAME? WHAT THE HECK!
..Yeah that...got me tweaked a bit in the wrong direction.
"(because, let's face it, as tough as Omega is, Shadow's still the more powerful of the two)."
Source.
Metal Sonic needed Kaeru-kun (who was once possessed by part of Chaos) and a Chao (the fact that it was Chocola was coincidence it seems) to get a copy of Chaos' lifeform data.
Eggman seemed to know that Metal Sonic planned on doing this, seeing as he sent Team Chaotix to grab as many Chao as possible when they were in Chao inhabited areas.
I think we're supposed to assume that Tails put the Tornado on auto-pilot.
1) Froggy was possessed by chaos's tail in Sonic adventure
Chocola and all other chao all have the same genes as chaos because Yuji Naka said so. Chaos protects the original chao in Adventure 1 and chaos prolly created them so they have Chaos's data.
2) I do think the Sonic Heroes Shadow is the Sonic Adventure 2 Shadow as well. but proof is needed. Imagine Hundreds of the buggers. no witty comment just imagine it!
3) I laughed when i realised that as well. its just
Tails's major plan to get back at yuji naka for Sonic Adventure 2 
In the first Team Dark cutscene, when Omega is scanning the 'Lifeforms', note that Rouge is scanned Green, perhaps showing organic, and Shadow red, mechanic. It would explain why Omega mistook Shadow as a robot/enemy, the Shadow Robot, and Rouge telling Omega that Shadow is a robot, but it would leave the plothole of how she found out. Perhaps she knew since SA2, maybe hinted from the line "Then who...or what...is standing in front of me?" But even then, it wouldn't explain the title 'Ultimate Life Form', with him being mechanic, but perhaps it was a lie that he was alive all along, or that the Shadow(s) we have played as have never been the originals, and are just copies based off the original, explaining Geralds ability to 'alter' his memories. But listen to me, babbling on, answering my own plotholes. Feel free to have your say at my theory. 
Edit: Also, note Tails' line "It's not an Eggman robot..." Now, me and some others had a discussion about this in chat about whether he meant it wasn't the kind of design Eggman would use, so couldn't have been made by him to try and trick them, or whether he meant it wasn't a fake Eggman robot but he didn't actually know what it really was. Toughts?
And finally, my thoughts on Metal Sonic/Metal Overlord, copied from a different topic...
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Yes, he does call himself Metal Overlord, however he is still Metal Sonic, and everyone still calls him that. Also, judging by the last cutscene, the 'Overlord' was perhaps just an upgrade provided by Eggman which alowed MS to copy lifeform data, thus giving him the ability to transform into them. However, this seems to go to his head, so he copies Eggman's data, locks him up and goes and does his work (I believe), trying to gain data from other people, mainly Chaos.
Personally I believe that the Shadow walking around everywhere is the real Shadow. My theory is that he fell from the ARK all "MARIAAA" like and landed somewhere. Eggman later found him and since he's all evil and stuff, took him to do evil stuff like mess with his memory and make a clone army of robots so he can take over the world Dr. Wily style.
He might have put him a seperate captsule so he doesn't get mixed with the others. Then Rouge comes and stuff and Omega is all "OMGOMGSHOOOT!" because even if he is the original Shadow, I think he's a robot one. I mean Prof. Gerald was Eggman's grandfather, perhaps Eggman knows all this stuff about robots from his grandfather that he adores and looks up to so very much.
That would explain how Shadow survived the fall to earth, being a robot getting pieced back together perhaps. Maybe that's how he lost some memory: when he crash some memorychips when flying. Eggman may have noticed it and just got lazy to find 'em. 😛
Rouge would know if Shadow was a robot or not I believe, being she is an agent. She has access to data that no one else can get to, so she might have accidentally looked it up while looking for jewls Sonic Battle style.
But for that part where they find the Shadow robot (in pieces), how the heck did that get there in the first place? I didn't see it at all during the fight, there must be a reason it's there. Also for Metal Sonic when he changed back to his original look at the very end, weren't there two Metal Sonics in Sonic Adventure in those capsules where you first play as E-102 Gamma? Just a thought
For the Chaos data theory, perhaps he got Froggy and Chocola for the data, but still needed a little more data to full compleate it. So then he lured Cream and the rest of Team Rose there so he'd get a chance to copy Cheese.
But another thought, when Eggman claims "YOU HAVE NO MEMORY" and all to Shadow, wasn't that Metal Sonic? How does Metal know about that anyways? Perhaps he did clone the others so he can be the ruler "Robot Overlord" with a huge ego problem and sic 'em at Sonic as a last minute ditch, but his timing didn't work out well or because of his ego he thought he didn't need them anyways. Either that or he had them to threaten Eggman with to distroy his entire base if he didn't cooperate or something.
So long story short, I think the real Shadow is a robot, but is the original robot that's running around. Metal may have a hand in the memory thing, Cheese was the final part needed for the data, and Rouge being an agent gets to know all the stuff and yet leave us here wondering what the heck is going on. Just my personal thoughts.
Shadow was genetically created.
Or maybe he was a mix of the two, I dunno.
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note that Rouge is scanned Green, perhaps showing organic, and Shadow red
I also noticed that...
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Personally I believe that the Shadow walking around everywhere is the real Shadow.
Well, I don't know about that, but I do believe Sonic Heroes/Sonic Battle's Shadow is the same one that was in Sonic Adventure 2.
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But for that part where they find the Shadow robot (in pieces), how the heck did that get there in the first place? I didn't see it at all during the fight, there must be a reason it's there.
I assumed it was crewing the Egg Albatross (that's the boss' name isn't it?) in some way, perhaps as a secondary pilot/co-pilot or something.
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But another thought, when Eggman claims "YOU HAVE NO MEMORY" and all to Shadow, wasn't that Metal Sonic? How does Metal know about that anyways?
I think it safe to assume Eggman kept Metal Sonic's data banks updated with the latest events and occurances in the world, considering Metal Sonic is Eggman's...or was Eggman's...No.1 henchbot.
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So long story short, I think the real Shadow is a robot, but is the original robot that's running around.
Well, one thing is for sure that there's at least something mechanical, robotic or electrical about the current Shadow.
As I mentioned in another thread a while back, the Shadow in Sonic Battle gets 'damaged' (not 'hurt' or 'injured'), and also suffers from some sort of electrical short-circuit at times (listen out for the sound effects in certain scenes when the portrait of Shadow shakes around).
Onto something a little different now...
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Shadow was genetically created.
There's no hard proof that the Shadow in the games was genetically created.
What we do know is that Project Shadow produced something which was genetically created, but that could of simply just been the Biolizard, and that only.
Shadow could of been created a different way if Gerald decided to undertake a different method of creating the ultimate lifeform, after seeing the results of how the Biolizard turned out.
I'd really like the next Sonic game (after Battle) to explain as much about Shadow as possible. o.@; I mean, so far, all that's happened is that he's become even more confusing; at least IMO. >>;
Oh, and, something else I was wondering about...Eh, is it possible that Omega was trying to gun down Rouge? I mean, he -was- assigned to guard that room; or at least I would assume as such. Why else would you lock a robot up with that one particular Shadow? And Shadow dives out of his pod, saving Rouge.
The destruction of the pod, assuming Omega wasn't firing at it, may be due to chainguns not being the most accurate weapons in the world.
...Then again, there's the part where Rouge convinces them to stop fighting each other...which...makes me realize I've just wasted a bunch of time typing out all that stuff above. XD;
oo But then, why didn't Omega destroy Shadow before Rouge arrived, seeing as he was apparently locked away in the room long enough to make him angry about it...
@__@ Geh.
Rouge accidentally activated Omega when she entered the room - that's what the official websites have been saying anyway.
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But for that part where they find the Shadow robot (in pieces), how the heck did that get there in the first place? I didn't see it at all during the fight, there must be a reason it's there.
The Egg Albatross is a weapons carrier. Several characters, especially Omega, suggest this in their lines. So the Shadow robot was one of the weapons.
Just finished the individual teams today, and the Chaotix end movie alone made it worth it.
"WHEN I CONQUER THE WORLD I WILL PAY YOU!"
good lines AND brilliant voicer aacting thats a first for a Sonic game, usually good actors get bad lines and bad actors suck anyway...
As for Shadow, really, I don't have a clue. I don't think this IS the original shadow, mainly because Omega said he didn't think it was, that the original is still out there.
I hope the enxt game sorts this out, SA2 created a controversy, Heroes made it even more confusing and pushed it away from "Is he dead and is he the ultimate life form or not?" to "Is he a robot and is this him?"
Next time PLEASE enlighten us, they cant sustain it for more than 3 games im sure (not counting Battle)
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As for Shadow, really, I don't have a clue. I don't think this IS the original shadow, mainly because Omega said he didn't think it was, that the original is still out there.
Well, Omega never actually said that he didn't think it was the real Shadow - what he simply said, when Rouge assumed that their Shadow was one of the many replicas, was that for there to be replicas in the first place, there must still be an original in existance somewhere - I took that to mean that he thought that the original could be the one with them and that Rouge shouldn't automatically assume that he's just another of the many clones.
