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Since Sonic Adventure, fan's have been saying, "Just go back to basics! Focus on the speed and platforming!"
The people who whine about speed should stop because they're ruining the series, IMO. Go play Sonic 1. Most of it (any zone besides Star Light) is a lot slower than anything recently made. Sonic 2 and Sonic 3&K are faster but also have more complex levels and objects. Speed is fun when it's combined with a good level design but to some degree it's a marketing gimmick that is only part of what made Sonic good.
There's a misconception that it's the base of the series and as new games have tried to incorporate and top it, it's led to bad level design. SA put in cutscene loops, constant use of speed boosters (which tended to be a single zone trick in 2D), and other tricks to emphasize the speed. This led to a horrid camera that was always designed to give you the developer's opinion of what view would show off the most speed and allow you to avoid pits while running.
Sonic 2D is about FREEDOM. The speed was only part of that. Good control, secrets, complex levels, and varied (but still fast enough) character moves are just as important. The totalitarian camera and tracks over a giant pit need to go. Branching paths, a camera that follows you (with plenty of camera optioms and controls), and regions unlocked by character abilities should come in.
Sonic Heroes has been the closest so far, especially Seaside Hill with little danger of falling in a pit, formation freedom, and some free branching. They should make a sequel with better level design, rare pits (or change the pit penalty to losing a level on each character a la Mario Kart; you do have a flyer with you), customizable teams, and more freedom over who the lead character is.
Unfortunately many hard core fans reacted with blanket negativity to the issues when the game respresented several positive steps, many with yet more demands for speed, and I don't have much confidence in what Sonic Team is doing now. STH360 looks like more racetracks over pits and cutscene speed segments, with a few dangerous to explore but not particularly long secret paths.
I very much agree with you, Vec, and I am a supporter of Sonic Heroes. I very much enjoy the game, mind you all.
Heck, Sonic Heroes wasn't too bad i'll agree. Speed is more of a gimmick now I suppose. Like Sonic Heroes had it's bit of speed but I don't feel it had quite enough. The SAs was pretty good on most [Sonic] levels. I guess it's just something that is hard to do in 3d. *shrugs* =/
I do believe I've been quoted!
I do totally agree, though. I'm currently trying to program a fan game (graphics look mighty nice, but I'm not a very experienced programmer... SDL a good choice? No, that's off-topic, forget it), but in trying to get ideas I found everything I came up with boring and redundant and lacking the charm of the old Genesis Sonic games. So I broke out Sonic Mega Collection (my Genesis is busted) and replayed Sonic 1 - 3&K back to back. I was shocked at how, though they felt fast-paced, often times the game slowed to a literal crawl and focused on traps and tricky duck/jump/back up tactics.
Speed is such an obvious staple of the Sonic franchise that it's incredibly easy to forget that it wasn't speed that made the games cool. It was a big part of it, but not the only nor the most important thing.
-Jake
Basicly everyone said what I was about to say. (Sh was ok,I bought for the sake of not being borad. and team chaotix.) I never was able to finsh the old school games (on gamecube) without cheats. I tryed. (Kau, You have been kind to me ever sense I been here. I be more thean happy to repay you by helping you with a plot for your game.)
Finally! Resonable Sonic Fans! 
You're right. The 2D games wasn't all about speed otherwise you'd only just press right like a retard. That's why, from what I heard, Sonic Advance 2 didn't do so well.
you can't actually make sonic go faster, you can slow down the background and other characters besides sonic.
the real argument should be whether we want the other characters to be able to catch up to sonic or not.
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Sonic Advance 2 didn't do so well.
in SAd2 the obstacles were lessened in hopes of making sonic faster, concluding to the idea: as long as sonic doesn't stop, he's fast. of course that made the game too easy and boring.
Sonic Advance 2 was pretty bad. It's a perfect example that focusing strictly on speed IS NOT going back to basics. Still more fun to run really fast than be bored to death (SAdv3).
And Sonic Candy: Thanks very kindly for your offer, but I'm okay on plot. I'm trying to get myself some programming experience. 
-Jake
(This one was a comp problem.
)
Sonic Advance 2 was not, in a sense, "bad". It was just harder (which makes SOMETHING of a difference). That extra boss was so hard I took it with me to the bathroom. Sonic Advance 3 was great, even though the bonus stages were a B**** in order to get the real ending. Notice that as the trilogy progressed, it got better.
When it comes to speed, yeah, it's really just a gimmick. And a pretty darn good one at that. Mainly, it's just supposed to make you THINK you're going the speed of sound, or some equivalent. The cut scenes add that same effect (which clearly show the blue blur running as fast as sound). All in all, speed is the foundation of Sonic; only a part of the Sonic series, but without it, there wouldn't be much sense (or fun) to the franchise.
Note: THE CAMERA ISN'T THAT BAD! THE PROBLEM IS DUMB ADOLESCENTS WHO DON'T PREDICT IT'S MOVEMENTS!!
Sonic Advance 2 was not, in a sense, "bad".
No, not at all! The game is in no way bad unless you enjoy those fancy things like "Level design not consisting almost entirely of bottomless pits" or "Gameplay" or "Difficulty".
t was just harder
What exactly is so hard about holding right and occasionally jumping for the entire game?
Note: THE CAMERA ISN'T THAT BAD! THE PROBLEM IS DUMB ADOLESCENTS WHO DON'T PREDICT IT'S MOVEMENTS!!
Or, you know, people would actually like to be able to move the camera once in a while. You know, like a normal game.
It's not too hard, just hard compared to the other Sonic games. And it wasn't bad, just being a little fancy with words. . And by camera, I meant in SA2 Battle and the other 3d games. A lot o people complain about those.
And what the hell do you mean by "Tool"?
"Tool" is part of his signature.
And the complaints about the Sonic 3D games cameras are valid because they are awful in comparision to other 3D games. Unless that last statment of yours meant to be humorous.
Kind of both. I have mastered the Sonic camera, and learned that it helps when you know how to control it. Little kids, well, they don't. And dumb people who go on Halo for a living. The camera is like Sonic in some ways. They both love the freedom of going everywhere. You just need to know what kind of leash you need.
Um, the problem with the Sonic camera is that it doesn't go anywhere. It's bolted to one camera angle and even though you have a little bit of freedom to swing it around Sonic when you're standing still, as soon as you move the camera whips right back around to the way the programmers want it.
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Kind of both. I have mastered the Sonic camera, and learned that it helps when you know how to control it.
I find it difficult in the sonic adventure games to manage the camera view when you go back or around an object, that makes it hard to explore the grounds. It should be more stable.
Yeah, I guess it should. A more stable camera is all the better.
Shadow the hegehog >> worst camera ever! And people think sa2:b camra was bad. go figure.
Shadow the Hedgehog...........go to H, you SOB. I found the storyline and characters (including bosses) to be the only good thing. At all. F you, Shadow. You broke 69 traditions in 69 ways. BAD camera, much different then the others, BAD Shadow, you @#%$, the only reason WHY you could beat Sonic would be because you are faster ONLY BECAUSE of your stupid rollerskate hover thingies. I bet if Sonic had them too, he would be faster. No doubt about it.
I lost all of my lives except one in the final boss battles, against Diablon, and then against Devil Doom (and I had roughly 10 lives each). Due to bad camera angles.
I haven't played Shadow So I can't comment. Btu ocne I got the hang of it, I didnt like the camer in Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 and Heros was bad, thought heros was worse than SA1/2, causing to me lose some lives (more than SA1/2, which combined cost me liek 2, while heroes cost me a few). The feel of "speed" in the game is one of my favorite things too btw.
The only thing I'd change about the recent games is the pointless Super Hard Mode. The actual gameplay is fun, but it would be nice to recieve some little reward at the end. All SH had was a thank you screen and ShTH had nothing. At least in SA2 they gave you Green Hill Redux.
-Shakudo-
"1.6 million hits, baby! WHOO!"
Like chao?...What? at least it's SOMETHING.
I've been saying what Vec just said for years. As someone who cut my Sonic teeth on games like S2 and S3&K for the Mega Drive/Genesis - which offered so much more challenge through multiple routes and hidden extras - the linear nature of everything since 3D Blast and Sonic R's been a major factor in putting me off the later titles. 🙁
Perach, sister. But I like chao better. (What? I was born around sonic 2! you really think I care that much about the old school games? I HARDLY KNEW HOW TO PLAY THEM FOR GOD SAKE!)
@The guy that said Shadow gives you nothing for finishing it: What about the Shadow rifle?
To be honest, the camera in SA2 never bothered me. That was my favourate Sonic game.
I don't think Sonic should get much faster than Shadow was (in the rare cases you could run fast). It ruins it when you're running a million miles an hour then a robot drops from the sky suddenly. I did enjoy Shadow though, hated the story though, especially the Commander's back story when he's talking about Maria (it contradicts itself) and the huge load times despite the @#%$ graphics.
Maybe Sonic Team should use a Psi-Ops like control system, it'd make the camera easy to control and when Shadow picks up a Gun aiming would be more fun (it was impossible to miss in Shadow).
The Commander from Shadow just plain threw me off. He has mismatched eyes, which when I first saw them I was like "WTF!?", then came his story. Exactly, where the F*** was he when the ARK was undergoing it's hostile takeover by GUN!? At the urinals?! And if the Commander so-called knew Maria, how come Shadow doesn't even remember him in the slightest? They really needed to look over this one a lot more.
It wasn't just that, he claimed 'Maria was like a sister' The 'only family' he had. Then later he claims his family was killed at the same time she was.
Morons.
I forgot about that....nuts. A cool fact about Shadow (perhaps the ONLY cool fact) is that Black Doom may still be alive, even though S* Shadow kicked his ars. He claimed to be "the ultimate immortal life form", and he just fell, no explosion, nothing. He probably faked it. Black Doom is the classic evil alien overlord, you can't say that isn't awesome.
A main, bad factor about Shadow is that speed had an 80% reduced part; there were few loop-de-loops! What's a Sonic game without plenty of loop-de-loops?
I think the commander lied to confuse Shadow. And the present day sonic don't have a lot of loop-de-loops.
I love the loop-de-loops. The rules of science state that if Sonic can do a loop-de-loop, he will go faster.
I liked Shadow, but I have never cared any about the speed of the Sonic games. I just liked playing them. I never thought Sonic was very fast in the games anyways.
The problem with the 3D loop-de-loops is that they play more like a cutscene and you really arent given much control at all. Not to mention that if you do move during a loop-de-loop in most cases it means certain death.
They fixed that in SHtH.
In SA Deluxe, I noticed that only Sonic, Tails, and Knux were fast (oh, and Gamma was pretty fast when he's in wheel mode). Amy and Big were slow as no tommorrow. A fun fact is in SA Deluxe, is that although Big is probably the slowest, he is the fastest climber! Go figure.
One of the ironic thinks in sadx.
Whats so ironic about Sonic Adventure DX?
Maybe I should be more specific. Big The Cat is the slowest character next to Amy, but he climbs ladders the fastest. Go figure (I'm contemplating making this my signature).
How is that ironic? It's just an attempt at diversifying the characters more and trying to add potential balance. Just because he's crap in speed doesn't mean he has to be crap in everything.
Big can pick up a car, for chrissakes.
It only makes sense that he should be able to climb a ladder faster than a hedgehog with toothpick-thin arms and head larger than his body =/
Never thought about that Wonder. And Big not crap at every thing.
I'm not saying Big is bad. He's cool. He can do a lot of things the others can't (swim, float, use a fishing rod, no boss battles). Cats all around are cool. That's why I have three of them.
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no boss battles
Chaos 6 O:
That wasn't really a boss battle, more like an event. That one didn't count in my book.
Regardless, it still counts as a boss battle.
A better boss battle for Big would be that he had to beat the s*** out of Chaos, first, THEN rescue Froggy. He'd grag Sonic with his fishing rod, attach him to the line, and fling him at Chaos. AFTER it freezes, of course.
That's a boss battle. Though the real one is indeed counting as a boss battle....to me, it's not. JUST TO ME!
Well, I'm late on this, but Sonic WAS originally about SPEED.
And that's exactly what I love about it.
Yeah, Heroes was fun and all that, but it wasn't what I expected from a Sonic game. At least Shadow the Hedgehog was a bit truer to what Sonic is (or WAS) about.
Just my two sense.
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swim
Tails was the first to be able to swim. Knuckles recently acquired that skill (and Rouge has it as well).
Now that I think it, and I think a lot, mind you, how was Sonic able to stay under water in the early games and not the latter ones? In S&K3, for example, in "Launch Base Zone" as Sonic, you could stay under water. Well, he'll still drown, but that's not the point. The point is, HOW CAN HE STAY UNDER WATER LIKE THAT IF HE CAN'T SWIM? Running underwater, everyone needs that.
GO FIGURE!
He can't swim because he sinks like a rock. o.o
The guy's a lead weight. Next question!
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Well, I'm late on this, but Sonic WAS originally about SPEED.
Did... did you even read Vec's post? I happen to agree that Sonic was more than just moving forward through a stage as fast as possible, it was also about looking for stuff up high and down low, trying out new paths and clinging to walls looking for spots where you could walk through into secret rooms.
I happen to like blasting through zones in S3&K at fast as I can, but I do appreciate that you can deviate to satisfy your curiousity. This is something that the Advance and Adventure games haven't been able to translate well.
