He's right...he's talking about the bonus stages and stuff. Like in Sonic Heroes, you had to find the key in the level in order to go to the bonus stage (and not get hit while you have the key). Ya gotta look for stuff, or you'll miss out on some stuff. Like me, for example, I never fought Metal Madness because I didn't have all of the Chaos Emeralds (of course, this was before I knew about the emeralds and final boss stuff).
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Just my two sense.
Cents.
I always liked the speed part about Sonic when it came in short bunches, like when you'd spin through several loops and cockscrews at once....the way they did it in Sonic Advance 2 was just ehh...
In radical highway, Right whean Shadow was running in a cork screws and GUN was fireing missles it slowed down a little matrix style for a secound and it did the same in speed highway. Oo may be it was just me.
I think maybe THATS it. It wasn't that Heroes did stuff that was WRONG. It's more it teased you with things that would be AWESOME if you actually had total control of them, but it didn't give it to you, which made me madder than it not even hinting at it.
~Rico
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I happen to like blasting through zones in S3&K at fast as I can, but I do appreciate that you can deviate to satisfy your curiousity.
I do too; maybe that's why I like the newer games. I started out with the Genesis games and see nothing wrong with the current games.
In all Gen games, I pretty much follow the same path through each play through anyway; so, no alternating paths really don't bother me, and I never had any problem with the camera. I could usually see just fine, and the only game I really had a problem with camera was Shadow, like when finding the bombs in Mad Matrix dark, and that was only minimal. Maybe I'm just weird
However the main thing about Sonic for me is Sonic. His speed and cando attitude is what got me hooked, and just having Sonic in the game makes the series worthwhile for me. Story and gameplay are only secondary to me. I guess that why I have fun with the gameplay and story. *shrugs*
And here we have a winner, Super Rayzor: You. A true, blue fan. Not giving a crap about anything but the true being of it all: Sonic himself. (Shadow The Hedgehog may be the only exception here). Give this man (or woman) a round of applause!
Seriously though, a LOT of games are about speed. But Sonic is about kicking a$$ AND maybe speed, coupled together with characters, plotlines, and more ladies for the blue blur. I don't remember Sonic Riders being about speed. It was about the shortcuts and which characters is best for them. It was more about flying. And I thought it was cool!
Sonic seriously needs to settle on a girlfriend, by the way. Blaze is my fav, but so far, all roads lead to Amy. *Sigh*
(Give Razor a round of applause) I think Sonic should not have a girlfriend because well there the some proplems with sonic and girls mainly because ther no girls Sonic CAN date (Blaze is a priensess sonic love an advture,WE ALL KNOW that sonic and roalty do not mix (points to Knothole form and dos'et push the topic futher because this is a Sega Sonic form.) Amy is just a fangirl who want to marry Sonic and not carring about Sonic options on any thing ('Sonic, ther no way out of merrying me') And a 12 year old wanting to have her 15 year old hero kids? Sorry, but thats wrong. And im gonna stop her before this turn in to a pairing flame war.(Sorry if my typeing is bad it's 1:8 AM were im at.)
It COULD work, actually...Cat and Hedgehog fall in love, make out, plant a seed, give birth, all hel breaks loose, censor most of that so it says "fall in love, make out, all of a sudden at the end of the movie, episode, series, game, whatever, Cat is holding blue kitten daughter (yes, a girl)" and all is well. Did ya get that?
To furthur theorize here, Blaze doesn't really HAVE any friends in her world (or so she says), and your parents are technically your friends, right? So maybe Blaze doesn't exactly live with her parents or what not. Maybe she's just too young to accept the throne. There could be several possibilities. Oh, and in order for this to work, the characters have aged to about 18 or 19 by this time, 'k? Don't want to be sued...
And it's 2:30 AM when I typed this. But then again, I've done this a lot. Sonic doesn't dislike Amy (this includes hate). Amy flirts with him a lot to a point where it's ridiculous, but Sonic still does care about her. But yeah, a 12 year old (who for some reason has larger cleavage then she should) and a 15 year old will not work. Another reason why I support SonicXBlaze. Closer ages, signs of interest, sexy kitty- OK! I'M JUST GOING TO STOP RIGHT HERE!
So, staying on the topic, Sonic should stay away from games that involve mostly emotion. Ya know, games that focus on relationships. That's what fanfiction is for! And I do that a lot (at Fanfiction.net), so we're covered.
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In radical highway, Right whean Shadow was running in a cork screws and GUN was fireing missles it slowed down a little matrix style for a secound and it did the same in speed highway. Oo may be it was just me.
SC, I'm under the impression that it wasn't an intentional, "Matrix"-style slowdown. I think it was just framerate lag due to an overload of objects and particles on-screen.
-Jake
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Sonic Is Not Speed
We should hope not. Drugs are bad!
Well I did play the Old Sonic games more for exploration and platforming than for outwrite speed. But when you look at all the different types of media Sonic has been in they focus on the speed that he can go. Normally represented by a blue blur. So when I think of Sonic (the character) I do think of the speed that he can travel.
There is only so far a level can go. I don't like playing on the tightrope style levels but there has to be a point where the land would have to end and lead to a invisible wall (disguised as a mountain/ocean) or pit o' death. Even Shadow of the Colossus had an end of the play area.
If these Mach Speed Areas are any cop I suppose Sega would focus more on improving the slow fiddily platformy bits and split up the levels at bit like that. Sonic will still go fast in the platform/exploration bits but not as fast as in the mach speed areas.
I do agree with The Veck about Seaside Hill from Sonic Heroes. First six levels in Heroes were pretty good IMHO. Just a shame that the gameplay was poo.
I have to admit that was a random post from me. I kept on going back an adding bits.
Were:Yea it can't happen in the games but I like the ideal of Amy flirting with Sonic. And my Mom is just my mom really, never thought about being buddys.I think Amy is a fast devloper unlike Rouge jewal stuffer. In Riders, she seemed more flirter and not stalker like at all. maybe she's growing up? Bean X Amy have my support! Kau: I was 10 years old whean the game came out. It looked liked Matrix to me! 
Back on topic: I really don't care about speed, shooting, hunting puzzles - WHATEVER. Call me a fan girl but i play Sonic BECAUSE it's sonic that makes the game not speed and all that crap.
Speed is mainly just the theme to the games. I mean, back in the sonic 1 days, it was the fact that the game played smooth despite the crazy speed that you flew through a level. speed is what everyone wants in their games, aka, no LAG. sonic didnt have lag in the older days.
As far as the bottomless pits go... yeah, heroes was definitely the worst. Sorry if nobody agrees, but i found heroes to be one of the best visually made games, but the worst to play. the 3 character setup and totally unstable running/jumping controlls left me with a broken controller... in short, im sick of falling to my death. (especially when sonic can land a fall from space =P)
As for the camera... well... i didnt have too much of a problem with it. although it is totally... brainless you could say. it should stick to the character as much as possible, and not break away so much.
Here are the factors that made the Sonic games great. Without these factors, Sonic 1 wouldn't have sold a dime.
Speed
"The lightning-fast gameplay wowed everyone who saw it, even though critics were quick to point out the relative shallowness of the game engine. After all, all you did was hold the D-pad to the right and press jump every so often. Even so, people were eating the game up like crack-covered candy, and by the end of 1991, 2.3 million Genesis consoles had been sold, handedly outselling the fledgling SNES." -- Source.
To say that Speed isn't one factor which made Sonic is simply ignorant. Would you honestly have as much fun if Sonic could only walk, at say, a typical Mario-pace?
Weeeee! Can you almost feel that wind?
EDIT: I suppose you could add that "Simplicity" is another factor which made Sonic popular. Anyone can get into the olden games in a matter of seconds -- which makes wide-market appeal.
Fluidity
The level design guided your fast running. At times, it slowed it down (spikes, enemies, etc.), but a lot of times, it held you like a baby and then swung you around all over the place.
The loops, the enemy/object placements (if you played the old games, I'm sure there were times where you found yourself miles in the air, then landing on a robot head to swing you back up into the air), ... it was like a rollercoaster.
These days, the designers place so much stuff in so unnecessary places that it all simply slows you down. The game is suppose to be fast, and it's suppose to be like ... somewhat of a ride, I should say. Sometimes it's good to have slow points here and there (think of these like gathering up energy for another blast, or a resting point), but surely not everywhere.
If this wasn't true, then loop-de-loops, accelerators, speed, etc. wouldn't be in the game in the first place.
We need more of these.
Keep the ride rollin'
Game Environment / Story
The character designs, the level designs, the atmospheric music ... it all immersed you into this creative world. Would Sonic be as popular if he looked like this?:
It is apparent that the Sonic-style is widely acceptable -- not only due to popularity, but due to the massive amount of fan-art that spiral throughout the world. Personally, I've never seen so much fan art from one game series. Though, maybe I don't look around too much ... either way, hopefully you get the ideals.
As for The Future:
With high-speed brought back, fluidity in action (hopefully), easy controls, a beautiful gameworld, and a compelling story ... this game might just be worth it afterall.
I'm willing to bet there is more fanart from the Final Fantasy series than Sonic series due to the former being more popular overall worldwide.
Also, Sonic stories do not need to be ridiculously dramatic or "thought-provoking". A simplistic plot can and usually work for a series like this whether it's saving your animal friends from some crazed mad scientist machines or escaping from some book. All it need to be is excuted well. The majority of Sonic stories in the games are simplistic.
Also, I believe Sonic is still popular has to do with the character or character(s) themselves and their situtations and not 100% because of the gameplay, because recently the gameplay is arguably broken.
You also forgot about another factor for Sonic 1's success and that is Sega's excellent advertising and promotion of the game and character. Before Sonic, Sega's mascot was Alex Kidd. However, I hardly saw any ads promoting his games.
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Also, Sonic stories do not need to be ridiculously dramatic or "thought-provoking". A simplistic plot can and usually work for a series like this whether it's saving your animal friends from some crazed mad scientist machines or escaping from some book. All it need to be is excuted well. The majority of Sonic stories in the games are simplistic.
You're right. The simplicity of everything is something that just made the classics widely-accepted -- practically anyone could get into the game, and gain somewhat of an understanding of the overall goals.
It would be nice to have a game at the style of StH 06', but with a simple Sonic vs. Eggman story, and nothing more.
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You also forgot about another factor for Sonic 1's success and that is Sega's excellent advertising and promotion of the game and character.
Well, actually, that was in-mind, but I was just listing the factors that existed inside the game itself -- the elements which made everything fun and well-accepted across the world. If Sonic Team wants to go "back to the roots," they need to hit and nail certain elements that made the Sonic games fun, and ... well, Sonic.
In the external view of Sonic's success ... yeah, SEGA was real big on marketing. I miss the old "SEEEGA!" scream. 🙁
Not another Sega console conversation!? 🙁
** goes for the medicine cabinet ** :p
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To say that Speed isn't one factor which made Sonic is simply ignorant. Would you honestly have as much fun if Sonic could only walk, at say, a typical Mario-pace?
Sonic 1, except for Green Hill Zone and Star Light Zone, is often a Mario pace (which is fairly fast in Super Mario World). The speed is only part of what makes 2D Sonic games work - freedom.
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EDIT: I suppose you could add that "Simplicity" is another factor which made Sonic popular. Anyone can get into the olden games in a matter of seconds -- which makes wide-market appeal.
Simplicity of control is part of freedom. The level designs are definitely not simple.
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The level design guided your fast running. At times, it slowed it down (spikes, enemies, etc.), but a lot of times, it held you like a baby and then swung you around all over the place.
The loops, the enemy/object placements (if you played the old games, I'm sure there were times where you found yourself miles in the air, then landing on a robot head to swing you back up into the air), ... it was like a rollercoaster.
These days, the designers place so much stuff in so unnecessary places that it all simply slows you down. The game is suppose to be fast, and it's suppose to be like ... somewhat of a ride, I should say. Sometimes it's good to have slow points here and there (think of these like gathering up energy for another blast, or a resting point), but surely not everywhere.
If this wasn't true, then loop-de-loops, accelerators, speed, etc. wouldn't be in the game in the first place.
This is the belief that I am speaking against. Yes, the level design aided speed, but what I'm saying is that in SA and later games they aid speed TOO MUCH. The problem is the opposite of this common complaint. Speed in these games is usually done by accelerators or other obvious cutscene like objects, and the levels are contrived to emphasize speed instead of player choice. SA did this cutscene gameplay most, but they improved the interactivity in SA2, and even more in Heroes. But with fans talking about speed Sonic Team may go back to more cutscenes. Sonic levels should be huge and free roaming, with the ability to build speed yourself without being forced into it. Acceleration should often use more subtle player controlled means, like a certain area of flat land next to a loop, or a dip that builds momentum.
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The character designs, the level designs, the atmospheric music ... it all immersed you into this creative world.
The art has a huge influence in Sonic's success, but I'm talking about the gameplay. That is definitely a huge selling and fan attracting point, though.
If you're talking about Sonic 1, then yes, there was more exploration than plain speed. After you leave the fun level that was GHZ, all the other levels are lacking in speed and lagged down. But all exploration and no speed is why Sonic 1 was the worst of the original Sonic's (1-3&K). They sped it up emmensly in Sonic 2, and still kept some of the exploration, but not as much, which was superior to Sonic 1's design, IMHO.
I agree. The best designed levels combined speed and freedom and Sonic 2 and S3&K did it best (the slow levels actually tended to be less free and more about obstaces). But I'm pointing out that there hasn't been some 3D slowdown.
Sonic 2D is about freedom, and speed is part of it, both a product and a producer. Designing for speed and not freedom is a bad idea.
Download the first issue of The Gamer's Quarter. There's a wonderful article in there discussing exactly this:
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Before we get into what went wrong, first you must understand how a Sonic game works. Or rather, how the Genesis Sonic games worked. You see, Sonic himself is a very unique sort of character; no other game ever played like Sonic did when he debuted in 1991. Not just the speed either, everybody always talks about Sonics speed, but there was something beyond that. Sonic enabled players, for the first time, a sense of momentum. Levels themselves were rollercoaster rides because Sonic had a one-of-a-kind physics engine. It allowed you to run up any smooth surface, even up walls and, most impressively, along the ceiling, as long as you had built up enough speed to do so. To fully understand why this matters so much, you must first understand the basics of level design.
Flow is the key. Flow is running through World 1-1 of Super Mario Brothers without stopping once, without turning around once, without ever slowing down. You hit every platform, every enemy, right on the money, the first time. Flow is nailing the Blast Barrel sequence in the first snow world of Donkey Kong Country on your first try. Flow is all about timing and forward momentum: the idea that every object in a level is perfectly positioned so that the player can interact with it without having to stop. Flow is completing Green Hill Zone Act 1 in less than 30 seconds.
The Sonic games introduced a brand new dimension of flow. In typical platform games, for the player to go to the left he would have to stop and then turn around. This wastes precious time, and it breaks the flow - in a level all about moving forward, the player would have to turn around and go the opposite direction.Sonic did away with this. Sonic could run up a half-pipe and be shot off in a different direction, in fact, any direction - up, down, left, right and everything in-between. This maneuverability opened the door for limitless possibilities in designing Sonic stages. Zigzags, loops, rolling hills and valleys, Sonic reacted realistically to many different forms of terrain. Running up a steep hill would cause Sonic to slow down and if the incline was too great he would stop and start running back downhill again. This part of the Sonic experience was superbly unique for its time. To this date, very few games have understood this mechanic of the Sonic design, and it is perhaps why the rush of Sonic clones that followed his debut were never met with quite the success our blue hedgehog was given. They may have had the style, but they never had the single most unique quality of a Sonic title: the physics engine.
In comparison, looking at the 3D titles, they ignore this, perhaps the most crucial aspect of Sonics design. In fact, the 3D Sonic games often penalize you for trying to run up any surface that is not the floor. Very few special items involve running up walls (and most of those were confined to the original Sonic Adventure), and if you try to run too far up a wall, the physics engine glitches out on itself and youre thrown back to the ground (occasionally even through the floor itself). The only time the player ever runs up any surface other than the immediate floor in front of them are on the loops - and those are mostly pre-scripted events, offering the player very little control. Instead of giving the player control and bringing them into the action, they are content in zooming out with cinematic camera angles, removing the players immersion in the game world. All of this is done, in Sonic Adventure Series Director Takashi Iizukas own words, to give the player a sense of just how fast Sonic really is, and that, perhaps, is the main problem underlying the current Sonic game mechanics. The designers are so enamored with reminding us how fast Sonic is that theyve forgotten the finer points of what made him feel so fast in the first place.
A good example would be placing Mario in a Sonic level. To make it easier on ourselves, well remove the loops - in their place, flat ground. Now, imagine Super-Mario-World era Mario wandering around, say... Chemical Plant in Sonic 2, or Sonic 3s Launch Base Zone. Mario cant run up walls like Sonic can, so obviously Mario could not easily make it to the end of a stage. Now, throw the 3D Mario we saw in Super Mario Sunshines bonus levels (IE - Sans water pack, just flat out platformer Mario) into a Sonic Adventure 2 stage. In most stages (save for one or two) hed have few problems navigating to the finish line, because a large portion of the abilities that set Sonic and Mario apart have been toned down, or flat-out removed.
I haven't played any 3D Sonic (or Shadow) game since Adventure 2,(!) so I have no idea how things have changed since then (not much, by the sound of it). But one problem with the Adventure games is that they're too punishing. In the Mega Drive Sonic games, with the exception of a few crushers and bottomless pits, you almost never died immediately after making a mistake. Even in the Chemical Plant Zone, you almost always have a strong chance to recover from falling into the chemicals. But in the Sonic Adventure games, almost every path is surrounded by a bottomless pit, and if you fall off you die instantly - something which is made much more likely by the atrociously inconsistent control system. That's not fun. The punishment for falling off the path and into water should simply be a reduction in speed and the challenge of getting out again - not death. So one thing that could be done is to expand the breadth of the levels, so that you can always continue even if you deviate from the main path (by choice or not).
I recently played the demo of Shadow of the Colossus (haven't played the full game yet though). One thing I really enjoyed about that was simply riding around that massive field and taking in the view. Imagine a 3D Green Hill Zone like that, where simply running and jumping around is enjoyable, running to the top of a hill to look around. Course, at Sonic's speed it'd have to be a pretty big area - he could probably cross Hyrule Field from Zelda OOT in about 30 seconds. 
Now, a potential problem with a space that open is that it would be too vague to see where you've got to go next. There are ways of guiding your attention in one direction, like the chequered paths that crisscross the Green Hill/Emerald Hill Zones, and all those cliffs and walls (but not too restrictive!). Perhaps it could be the first level of the game, a gentle introduction like the early levels of the Ecco games, with the player able to either explore as above, or take part in a few simple challenges and races, like those in Sonic Jam's Sonic World. Maybe at one point in the level, Sonic could spy something on the horizon, like a huge plume of smoke from Robotnik's factories, giving you a clear purpose and something to head for.
The other possible problem with a space that open is that you'd never fight any enemies, because running around them would be too easy. Well, in most cases in the early levels of the 8- and 16-bit Sonic games the same was true - you could nearly always just jump over them and continue on your way. But I for one found that I never wanted to - whenever I came across an eneny, I'd always destroy it, especially if I was getting revenge for it hurting me. That was because Sonic Team made destroying it more satisfying than ignoring it, through the use of sound effects and that wonderfully solid bounce. A tricky task to pull off, but it must be possible in 3D as well.
Those kind of open spaces could also be used for boss battles, which have traditionally taken place in a very small arena. Imagine an epic battle with Metal Sonic that takes place over the entirety of that environment - a bit like the the Sonic vs Shadow fights in SA2, but expanded out over a large plane.
Anyway, that's just some speculation about how the levels could be opened out to permit exploration while retaining a clear purpose.
(One other thing I want to suggest, which isn't really relevant to the topic but is more about My Ideal Sonic Game, is storytelling. I reckon voice acting is completely unnecessary in a Sonic game. Great animation can convey a lot without saying a word - the Hidden Palace/Sky Sanctuary scene in Sonic & Knuckles certainly managed it. I'm sure it would be an interesting challenge for the animators among the development team, too.)
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I reckon voice acting is completely unnecessary in a Sonic game.
I half agree, half disagree. I agree that voice acting isn't a necessity in the storytelling, but I personally enjoyed the ambient/partner voices from Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog. (Soldiers shouting status reports, partner characters cheering you on/being like "What are you doing?!", etc.)
More Sonic and Shadow Racing. They are the only two that make rivalry worth while. I love hover skating at breakneck speeds.
Sonic's the only one that entertains me, I don't care about his personality just his speed and skills. That is the point of Sonic Games, isn't it?
I don't think you got the point of this topic.
I'm still a bit confused by this topic. But there is one thing I wish wasn't in sonic games but seems to be here to stay. Land vehicles. I liked the air plane because Sonic can't fly. But does Shadow really need a jeep? How does this add to anything?
A friend of mine told me he got a hold of a demo for the Sonic 360 game. He said the camera is just as wonky as before. But I can't say that I don't want speed. I want speed. Its just hard to get it right in 3D I guess.
Well in Shadow, Most of the (useful) vehicles allowed to Shadow to reach higher platforms and in the case of Iron Jungle it allowed you to take an alternate route.
The jeeps and motorbikes however act as a sheild. While you are in one you don't lose your rings.
You know theres no point in Sonic being fast if all of his enemies are stationary for the most part. Those stupid robots would make a better challenge to Crash Bandicoot. If Sonic is fast so should his enemies. Story wise Eggman is an idiot for not figuring this out. I know there is Metal Sonic but so what? Metal Sonic is just ONE enemy out of the millions of high speed enemies Eggman COULD create.
If Sonic isn't about speed, then what the hell are the time attacks for?
Simple, another form of replay value.
Yes, and no. Yes, it is for replay value. AND to unlock some stuff you didn't have before.
No, because you're supposed to do it FAST, hence "Time" Attack. The FASTER you get it done, the more you are rewarded.
The same could be said for levels, particularly with the "emblems" in the Adventure games or "medals" in the Advance games.
That stuff doesn't make the game itself about speed. That's like saying having chao gardens and kart racing makes the game about learning how to raise "virtual pets" or "kart racing." Extras are extras, not the game.
Sonic can have tons of exploration in his games I agree with that. But who would play a Sonic game if Sonic doesn't run fast? I'll play Zelda instead.
One of the reasons I haven't played a Sonic game (not counting the GBA games which in some ways played more like the Genesis games) since SA2 is the idea that Sonic is "speed." Ignoring the other parts of the series that make it fun doesn't give people like myself an incentive to get the games--and despite my Knux bias, I haven't spent the money just to see/play as him and I won't unless the games get better. Even in the schools I'm in, kids that have a chance to play the "old" games (due to porting them onto GC in particular) are starting to say that they're a lot better than the "new" games.
Too bad there are a lot of people who think 2D graphics are lame now. I know a friend who didn't play the Sonic Advance games because he thinks 2D games are old hat.
Sorry to bump this, but I just wanted to add something that occured to me the other day.
My first Sonic game ever was Sonic Chaos for the Master System, of which I have fond memories of playing many times over and over. The other day I wanted to play it again, so I opened up an emulator and decided to make a little speedrun and clear the levels as fast as possible, since I didn't want to stay up too long.
And I noticed something.. most of the acts took me very little to complete, an average of 30-40 seconds! I cleared the game in no time.
So I started to wonder.. if the stages are all so short, how come it took me so long to clear them back when I was younger?
Then I realized that I have never played the games to zoom as fast as possible through the levels. What I did the most (and still do) is collect as much rings as possible (when playing as Tails, since Sonic goes to a special stage upon collecting the 100th ring) and looking for goodies like hidden 10-ring boxes and extra lives.
I also carefully destroyed all enemies to prevent them from making me lose my precious little rings.
This is also why Gigalopolis was my favorite zone. It had so many rings and ring boxes scattered throughout, somehow it felt rewarding being able to collect as many as possible and getting to the end without losing them.
So in the end I never noticed the shortness of the zones, because I always went at a slower pace and explored the level some more. Of course the quick and fluid movements were and are important to me in a Sonic game, I'd hate to have to walk a couple of seconds to reach that platform at the other end of the screen and collect the rings on top. Just jumping from where I stand directly on top of it is good to me. And if I need that extra boost of speed I just spindash away!
Bumped for the newbies, especially since this topic came up in another topic.
The levels have fast parts in them but many (most?) levels in the Genesis games are actually fairly slow paced. That made the time where you actually got to go ripping through a cork-screw or a steep hill, somewhat of a treat and the pay off for getting there. The Marble, Labrynth, and Scrap Brain Zones in Sonic 1 are predominantly slow, even the Special stage is plodding.
Sonic 2's speedy Chemical Plant had many parts of waiting for water to rise, and platforms to move. Casino Night and Hill Top is mostly about skillful platforming. Mystic Cave even has a part where, if you were going too fast, you'll fall into a pit of spikes and just have to wait for death (great fun for Super Sonic). Oil Ocean only has brief spurts of speed due to slides or cannons. And for a Zone called Sky Chase, the pace is quite leisurely.
S3&K probably had the slowest paced zones. Angel Island had only a few good times were to went full throttle. Hyrdo City had the typical underwater slowness. Carnival Night had probably the most famous momentum killers ever (you know what I'm talking about). AAAALL the way down to Mushroom Hill, Flying Battery, Sandopolis, Lava Reef, and Sky Sanctuary Zones.
Sonic only really cuts loose with the speed for a short while after he's had to stand still and wait for a platform to come close, only to be greeted with a series of large objects that need to be carefully negotiated, lest he be squashed.
Has anyone ever noticed that ever since SA, about half of every level feels like it's stuck on Automatic?
Other than the much more interactive Sonic Heroes (and to a lesser degree SA2 which improved interactivity by letting you do tricks for points), yes. That's one of my main points.
I can't speak for the bosses in Shadow and STH360, but SA's bosses were especially examples of the pre-scripted philosophy of 3D Sonic games. Virtually every boss was an invincible attack pattern followed by a pointless opening of a weak spot. SA2 gave much more options during bosses and Sonic Heroes bosses were extremely open to variable playing, even the cheap team battles.
That's why I saw SA to SA2 to SH as a progression where at least Sonic Team, while releasing a rushed game, were getting closer to the right idea with Sonic Heroes (they even promised multiple paths, and they delivered on that in the first 2 zones, again suggesting it was rushed). Sonic Heroes with considerably more polish would have been an extraordinary game. They were aiming at a Sonic game built on freedom, not just speed, and were saying so in interviews. However, SA, probably because of its higher polish and plot, has generally been the most well received 3D Sonic game, and as I warned when I saw reactions after SH came out, it seems Sonic Team in STH360 has jumped back and made every SA mistake over again, and taken it to a greater degree.
But why would anyone want to take a step BACKWARDS? That seems kind of pointless don't you think?
So they can do the Moonwalk! 
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But why would anyone want to take a step BACKWARDS? That seems kind of pointless don't you think?
Well, in the words of Lenin, "Sometimes one must take two steps back to take one step forward."
What, I don't agree with him it's just one of his quotes in my history books in high school when he started to allow some capitalism in the Soviet Union.
In this case, it seems more like the other way around, like in Never Turn Back, they take "One step forward and two steps back."
In any case, what I personally would like to see is another Sonic Game like Sonic Rush. 2.5D, with bosses that are fun, yet challenging in their not-quite-predictibility.
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In this case, it seems more like the other way around, like in Never Turn Back, they take "One step forward and two steps back."
That also applies to a line in "I Am...All of Me."
Shadow quotes Lenin?
Therefore he MUST be communist! =O
SHADOW IS A COMMUNIST!!
I KNEW those red stripes meant something.
You have no idea how well your avatar goes with that paragraph, Erika.
On the whole step backwards from slightly varied paths to linear paths. I don't think that happened in Sonic Next. In one of the videos that was released before it was released, I spotted a few paths/alternate routes through Ocean Wave. You do hear a smattering of good level design from people who played Next.
I just think that they weren't given enough time to finish the game properly.
It's not just linearity, but lack of freedom. From what I hear Sonic can ONLY use the homing attack now? And there are way too many springs, speed pads, loops, rails, boarding, mach speed, and other non-freedom level design. Mostly intended to make a movie of Sonic's speed. Sonic Heroes had tons of moves and often move freedom.
Sonic's standard repetoire in StH is the Homing Attack, SA-style Spin Dash without the ability to jump and some kind of leg sweep kick when on the move.
In shops you can buy power-ups that give him "new" abilities like the Light Dash and a sometimes useful sliding kick attack. He gets more but I never bothered to find out what those colored gems did. I heard something about increasing his running speed, making it easier to complete that annoying "find the Soleanna kids" timed side mission.
