1. going really fast and the occasional chase like the killer whale in SA and the truck in SA2, i like water looking levels like emerald coast but despise levels like sandopolis and lava reef zone.

2. 1st level of SA2 even if it was a demo, it sure was fun, looked nice and had great features and music.

HOLY MOTHER MY 100th POST!!! WAHOOOOOO!

The game can't have a preponderance of bottomless pits EVEN IN THE FIRST LEVEL. Only one thing ever ruins Heroes for me. It's not the glitches- I never notice; it's not the cheesy dialogue- I thought it was just fine; it was the fact that there were, like, 18 bottomless pits per level, even in the first one! I'm sorry, but especially in the 3D games with all the realistic graphics, all these bottomless pits trigger my acrophobia (yeah, I'm afraid of heights) and occasionally make playing certain levels a waking nightmare.

It has to bring something NEW, but at the same time, harken back to the OLD somewhat.

Some good examples are Emerald Coast and City Escape. Sure, they had bottmoless pits, but sometimes, you actually had to TRY to actually be able to fall down them. ANd they both felt very "Sonic"-y to me, even without the checkered hillsides and such.

Nice topic. I was gonna make a similar thread, but you beat me to it.

Anyway...for me, a well-designed level should be long, have a wide diversity of features, have multiple routes, allow for both speed and exploration, and not try too hard to catch the player out.

Best designed level? Well, I'm not sure what the best-designed level is, but there's one level whose layout I've really come to appreciate - Scrap Brain Act 1 from S1 (MegaDrive). Take a look: just after the start you have that spinning disc thingy, where you can choose to go right, or, if you want a challenge, down*. If you go right, you can either keep going right, or jump up via the spinning platforms and take the high road. Later on there's another spinny disc which splits the route into two again. The whole level feels BIG. I picked this example by the way because it's from an earlier game and therefore more likely to be overlooked.

* - Seriously, S1 walkthrough writers, the down path isn't "unsurvivable". Honestly.

All a good level needs is speed and some loops. I could care less if there's a bunch of bottomless pits; to me it just adds something to avoid, and what else are you supposed to have, its just the easiest thing to put in a level
Just look at speed highway on Sonic Adventure. Its so amazingly fast and has my favorite loop of all time in it.

Maybe one or two are fine, but if the whole level is ONE BIG BOTTOMLESS PIT with a few platforms strewn around (Egg Fleet), it's kinda nerve-wracking.

For me, Egg Fleet was one of the few levels in Sonic Heroes where the bottomless pits were justified.

Ooh, "Egg Fleet" was prolly one of my fav. levels in "Sonic Heroes"!
IMO it was REALLY well put together. Really explosive and exciting, you know?

Try looking at it from the point of view of someone who can't stand to be 10 feet above the ground.

Labyrinth Zone must have really sucked for people with a fear of deep water then. XD

1) The design of the level has to be fun to play in, and it has to allow users to feel that they can go really fast and safely do really daring things (like jumping 50,000 feet in the air, or jumping off a cliff to get to a set of rails, etc.).

In some of these late 3D games (cough Sonic360/PS3 cough), I couldn't have fun with the levels because the design wouldn't allow me to have fun. I was more concentrating on not falling into a bottomless pit and other random BS.

The only levels I had fun in was the levels that were either more grounded, or were made in such a way that I felt I could safely land dangerous high jumps/other movements. I didn't have to worry too much about falling off a cliff, so I could run and bounce all over the place!

2) A lot of the good levels in the classic Sonic genesis games.

Speed Highway has bottomless pits, but notice how the level design allows the player to play around and take risks. Like the level is one giant sandbox.

City Escape has good grounding, which allows the user to not fear too much ... it'd be greater if there was platforms and more openness for exploration and speeding/jumping around.

I like levels which you can either totally speed through or take your time. Bottomless pits shold also be resrved for specific traditional platforming sections.

A good example is Final Egg from Sonic Adventure. The first time you go through it would take about 10 minutes, but the A level emblem required you to do it in 4:30, which you never thought would be possible the first time around. It also has a few jumping sections over pits, a lot of flat out running sections, different ways through rooms, and the awesome "super fall of doom" section, which is a very memorable section, which helps make levels even better. The fact that different characters went through the level at different paces/routes was good too.

Another good example of how bottomless pits work is Sky Deck. Mostly you're speeding through tight walkways, with a few tricky jumping sections, but it works really well rather than having you constantly trying to avoid them.

Yes, I really do think Sonic Adventure hit the nail with level design.

Pretty much what everyone else is saying with the exploration (or lack thereof) in the 3D games. I played SA1 through once, and it seemed all right. Lost World was freaking amazing if I remember correctly.

But my hat goes off to SA2. Sure, there were some bottomless pits, some had more than others... But you had the strictly linear levels (Tails/Eggman), the free-roaming levels (Knuckles/Rouge), and the somewhere-in-between levels (Sonic/Shadow). I know in my experience, I was too focused on getting points than exploring the shooting-levels.

One of the best examples for racing I can think of is Final Rush. The place pretty much is one giant bottomless pit, but if you know what you're doing, you can "fall with style" and take shortcuts that way. You can do all sorts of fun stuff with grinding, etc. I think in its own way, it's very well constructed.

On the other hand, Final Chase sucked hardcore. >> To this day, I cannot beat it with higher than a C. Stupid spinning drum things. That was a good idea that was not executed well at all. oVo

EDIT: OMG! CRAZY GADGET! How could I forget that?!

Crazy Gadget is MY FAVORITE (and best) LEVEL, hands-down. You not only had to focus on what's going on around you, but you also have to be worried about what's above and to the sides and make sure you're not crushed by stuff as gravity shifts and whatnot... And then that bit at the end with the colored blocks? There are all sorts of ways you can shortcut it and cut between 0:30-1:00 off your time. To this day, I never learned the real way to go in that level - I always thought my shortcut was the right way. ^^; But yeah. Definitely one of the best constructed levels in the game.

~Shadowed Spirit Sage

I like the levels that are way up in the air w/ lots of bottomless pits. I love the sensation of being disconnected from everything and just marvel at the lovely clouds and whathaveyou. There's a lot of freedom and a little rush of danger. Sometimes I play as Knux just so I can walk off a cliff and glide back on. ^^;
Theme levels are kinda cool. Like Music Plant, it was kinda unexpected and funky. Oboe-bo-bo-bobo FTW. Actually the only levels I find dull are the green hill zones, I know there a staple but gah! nothing but palm trees and loop-de-loops, made the more boring by the vast amount of rings/powerups and overall lack of challenge. I'll even take the slow as molases water level with Drowning! Sonic over umpteen GHs.

As far as the theme/background goes, I like levels with an ancient ruins feel to them, like Marble Zone, Sandopolis, Hidden Palace, Sky Sanctuary, Lost World and Chaos Angel, but I also like the badass base kind of level, like Sky Base and Sky Deck.

Level design should allow you to run fast if you wish to, but the level should also have plenty of places to explore and get goodies. Hidden paths are always nice, you feel rewarded upon discovering that path you had not noticed for so long.

Another kind of level is one that brings in a totally new element, like Act 2 of Jungle in Sonic 1 8-bit (SMS). First of all your path was vertical and not horizontal, secondly the bottom of the level scrolled upwards as you progressed, making for quite a challenge.
Even though it was all one big bottomless pit, the idea was original and all that was required of the player was some precise, but not too hard, jumps, which provided a good fun challenge and left you with a great feel of satisfaction once you finally reached the top of the level.

Now a small element than can be almost some kind of optional mini-challenge for the player is always welcome.
I always pull up Sonic 1 8-bit for my examples, since I explored that game almost completely and played it so many times.. but I noticed that each act contained exactly one extra life and if you took it and then died, it would not return.
To me it was a challenge to discover where each extra life was located in each level. Some of them were hidden in tricky places! It's noticeable that at least some thought was put into that.. in Labirynth Zone for example you need to press a switch to make a ring box turn into an extra life! Another one in Bridge Zone requires you to go to the left at the start of the level.

So yeah, a good Sonic level for me is either one of two:

- a "traditional" level, which allows you to speed through some of the areas, but also has plenty of different paths and rooms to explore and find goodies in and small details, like the aforementioned extra life "game" or something similar

- a new level, which introduces a new element into the gameplay, without making it mind-boggingly hard

Last but not least, each and every level should have some kind of new element.. be it a small gimmick or level-specific layout thing. Otherwise it'd be just the same thing over with different backgrounds. :/

(applause) Well said!

Maybe it's because I have more experience with the 2D over the 3D ... but the most often heard complaint is bottomless pits ... now, I think to my Sonic experience and realise ... there where very few bottomless pits at all in most of the games ... occasionally in levels like Sky Base or Flying Battery (which made sense) ... in most of the other games there where 3 to 6 'catchnet' levels of each stage, these would either be easier or harder and may not have the same bonuses as the others ... but they weren't instant death until you got to the real bottom of the level ... and even than they tended to be responably sparse.

I liked Lavareef personally .... because it had alot of 'gadgets' to mess around with ... and it was also very atmospheric with such things as the Death Egg in the background. Mushroom Hill was another one that had some interesting pieces of terrain to manipulate (and which manipulated you at times).

Also I quite like stages like Scrap Brain and Icecap that had two distinct feels to their layout (above ground and below ground).

^Omfg Lava Reef was without a doubt the best level in Sonic and Knuckles!
Best level design for a 2-D game is Lava Reef, IMO.
It looked so perdy and was so entertaining.

Lava Reef was like the Metropolis Zone of Sonic 3. Think about it.

Hm...
Well, if you look at it this way:
Metropolis was the "Eggman Base" of Sonic 2 and after you complete it you take to the sky to fight him in the air.
Lava Reef was like Eggman's base and afterwards you went up to Sky Sanctuary Zone which was also in the sky.
Hm, that's about it.

I s'pose they both have a lotta traps and hard-to-defeat bad guys.

OH! They both had lava, only Metropolis didn't have as much.

You forgot the length. THE LENGTH.

Ohh, i see, lol.
Yeah, that's about right, huh.

Wait Lava Reef was long? That zone always went quick for me...nothing will ever match the length/frustration that is Metropolis.

As for good level design, unless it's on a high rise air station or the like, let's kill the bottomless pits. I like a level to have a good balance of platforming and sections where you just go obscenely fast. The one problem I had with Rush was that too often if you memorized the level very well, you could blaze through it without much reduction in speed. Advance 2 was really really notorious for this. And perhaps have complex levels. Too often a level can be described as one thing (casino, water, lava, ice,factor...etc). How about combining some of them? Don't combine them just to be combining them but some can work. I thought Water Palace from Rush could have done that since it was partially based off Santorini of Greece. As in a nice garden type level that has you descend into the sea and then into the volcano where Robotnik awaits...something like that.

And more way out there zones like Toy Factory and Music Plant. I mean you really weren't expecting them but they were fun.

And more way out there zones like Toy Factory and Music Plant. I mean you really weren't expecting them but they were fun.

Don't you mean Toy Kingdom? And for hard to describe zones, how about Scrambled Egg Zone? Crystal Egg Zone? Sleeping Egg Zone?

Quote:

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All a good level needs is speed and some loops.

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People like you are the reason why Sonic Advance levels can get so boring at times.

I honestly can't think of a specific level that I feel is perfect or has all of the elements that I feel are necessary (I haven't played a proper Sonic game in quite a while). However, I do feel that it takes more than "speed and loops" to make a level fun. There definitely needs to be some element of exploration, with lots of different paths to choose from. Like Dane (or OTB to you worthless peons) said, one should be able to move through a level at whatever pace they choose. I'd like to be able to speed through and perform some awesome-looking stunts, yet still have the option of slowing down so I don't miss some of the more subtle details.

Levels should definitely take advantage of the environment and scenery, so that no two levels seem to play the same. Instead of just springs and loops, I love it when you're able to swing from vines and trees, get chased by a giant whale at the beach, or get frozen in a block of ice. A lot of the Advance levels (particularly the ones from Advance 2) simply fail at distinguishing themselves from each other in any important way - they're all rails, springs, loops, and randomly placed enemies and spikes.

I'm not going to comment on bottomless pits. They're just so goddamned stupid, and I think we all know that they should only be reserved for levels taking place in the sky (I know someone has already said this). Hey, you know that part where you said I wasn't going to comment about bottomless pits? I lied.

There is no Sonic game that could win the prize for best levels. Off the top of my head, I definitely think that Sonic Adventures (yes, both of them) and S3&K had some great levels. Hell, even Sonic Heroes had a couple of really good ones. Again, note that I haven't played any of these in a long time.

It's my belief that S3&K was the peak of level design, specifically Hydrocity.

Hydrocity had something for everyone. If you were a speed demon, you could just utilize the speed up and numerous loops and slopes the level provided. If you were more into exploration, Hydrocity offered numerous chances to go off the beaten path, so to speak, especially if you were playing as Tails or Knuckles.

I'd like to see a return of these kind of levels. Have a core path for those who like to speed through a level, but also add several alternate routes for those who like to explore. And save the pits for aerial levels, a la Sky Deck or Wing Fortress.

A'ight, what would you guys consider the worst level?
I'll put my money on "Hidden Palace" for Knuckles...but that doesn't really seem fair =P
Instead I'd go with Labyrinth Zone in Sonic 1. SO frusterating, I despise the underwater levels, despite its catchy song.

I don't like the beach levels. They were pretty cool before they were overused.
They should have just stopped with the beach levels with sonic adventure (thats arguably my favorite level ever).
In sonic 2k6 I enjoy the beach level but I find it kind of stale because it's not really something new.

1. I like epic scale, but I also like variety. I like levels with not just lots of scope, but multiple pathways, lots of hidden surprises and multiple strategies, rather than just levels you run from one end of to the other, and which seem to've forgotten that they were supposed to've been designed by an evil genius who's actually making an effort to pose a threat.

2. Metropolis or S3+K's version of Death Egg. Lots of hazards, lots of exploring and lots of different experiences along the way.

1. Well for me I like non-linear levels. I pretty much feel like Sam. I like exploration and multiple pathways. A challenge is nice and bottomless pits are acceptable as long as they are few and necessary(for instance a pit placed between a set of spikes w/a piece of land before it and the ground you are running on, meaning your jump has to be timed just right to land just before spikes and right after the pit). I'd like for the speed to be uniformly upbeat, but slower sections would be ok every once and a while.

2. Good example I suppose would be Metallic Madness from CD and Scrap Brain from Sonic 1. Also the Death Egg from S3&K is a good example.