I hate EVERY special stage... I just...

I just do.

At least the special zones were optional and ultimately a nice side thing to the game and gave a nice prize.

Well, the Werehog kind of mixes things up a bit. Think about Mario; the only out of ordinary thing he has done is have a water gun.

Yes. And many people complained about FLUDD and proclaimed the best part of SMS were the FLUDD-less levels.

About this game(rented the 360 version), so far I've completed the 1st Holaska daytime stage and I can see the makings of a really great game here, but it is bogged with some odd design choices. Not just talking about the Werehog stages(those are awful), but the QTE mini-game(also awful) and this RARE-esquse medal collect-a-thon. Sonic Team really needed to trim the useless fat out of this game. It addition, Sonic(normal mode) feels uncontrollable, as if he is too loose. I'm not sure where the compliments about Sonic begin great to control are coming from, because from what I see it is not true. Maybe it is an improvement from what he felt from 2006. I do think that Sonic's ideal speed is in the hubs. He's faster than running Werehog, slower than Sonic in the day levels, and he is easier to control.

Also this game has the worst beginning of a title I've played recently. The first hour or so is awful as it goes from...

A very shot tutorial Sonic level(Apotos act 1) ---->Daytime Sonic level(Apotos act 2)---> Nightime Werehog level(Apotos and it's friggin' long)---> Daytime(oops, it's a Tornado-mini game QTE-fest)---> Nightime Werehog again(Mazuri--another long level)--->Finally, another Daytime Sonic level(Mazuri act 1)--> Eggman Boss battle--> Now you finally free to select previous stages and alter the day/night cycle.

Kiorein wrote:

People keep complaining about the Werehog stages... but honestly how different is it from the Knuckles/Rouge stages and even to an extent the Tails/Eggman stages? It's basically the same concept-- varying gameplay -- that they've been going with for basically forever.

You are so right. Though, I hated the hunting and mecha stages in SA2 also.

I finished the game after taking a day off to recover. I really loved the final werehog battle, it was visually appealing and fun, although pretty easy. Anyone who's played the PSO Ep 2 final boss will find much similaritues here. The Egg Dragon looked great with Destiny Gundam wings of light coming out of the shoulders. The final boss however was a different story. I wont ruin it for anyone who hasn't gotten to that point yet, but it was an odd mess of different gameplay elements... none of which were any fun. And Dark Gaia's design is the most forgetable monster yet, I am sick of rejected designs for Final Fantasy summons being used as final bosses. Egg Dragon would've worked fine as the last boss, or hell bring back those ships Sonic didn't destroy from the opening and have him fight all of them at once... just keep the monsters in monster world.

Story wise, it was okay. They kept it simple this time but not on the level of Sonic Heroes. The story was there but i didnt feel like it was dragging down the game like previous titles. I am glad they didn't try and fit every character into the game for once, although Amy didn't serve any purpose. I liked Chip's design, but outside of the Night of the Werehog short, i didn't really find much appeal to his character. He wasn't annoying like previous entrants to the series, although i had to switch to japanese dialogue because his english voice didn't sound right. Who knows if we will ever see him again... or if anyone will care. The human designs were great too, way better than the station square and soleanna ones

In the end I found all the Sonic stages enjoyable except Eggmanland, I can see myself playing them again from time to time. I would say it is even less of a platformer than Sonic Rush, it feels like the game just guides you along the whole way. Although the special bonus acts make up for that by giving you the most frustratingly difficult platforming i have ever encountered. Unleashed is the most polished Sonic game in ages, but there is still much to fix.

I can't agree I'm afraid. I see both Shadow the Hedgehog and the Werehog as being bad concepts that detract from the core concept that make Sonic games what they are, and then poorly executed. The game play concepts could've been different and still failed, but I feel Omega was a much better concept for guns in Sonic, and trying to mix it with the Speed Platforming, I also feel that using Knuckles for the Werehog gameplay style would have made it easier for fans to digest, but I feel Knuckles shouldn't be a brawler, and preferred his gameplay being a more exploration focused version of Sonic's that was in S&K and SA1.

The other problem is that even if the Werehog stages WERE executed (which can happen with bad concepts) and were as fun as playing as normal (note I'm just assuming they're no fun right now for the sake of argument) it's still an unnecessary gameplay addition that we wouldn't miss were it to disappear from the series.

Now hold on there, cowboy. Shadow the Hedgehog and the Werewolf parts of Unleashed are two completely different things. One sucks hard and the other one is decent, if not repetitive.

I've only played very little of Unleashed, but from what I've played already, I can already say that Unleashed is actually... passable. It's the ONLY thing closest to even putting a smile on my face next to Sonic Chronicles, (which I personally don't think it counts, because of BioWare and all that). I mean, let's face it. Shadow was broken, bogged down, and just straight up lame.

Unleashed's unleashed levels are playable and, at its core, could be its own game. A few additions and some frame-rate issue fixes, and it's all good in the hood. The perfect way to describe it is that it's Kingdom Hearts and Devil May Cry, meshed together and then dumbed down for the kid-friendly atmosphere.

That's about where I'll stop defending it, though, as I'm yet unsure how I feel about that being in a Sonic game. It kills the momentum, for me, but I can't deny that after going into this with very low expectations, it felt good to feel something different, and having fun with it, coming out of it. At the same time, at what cost? More of the same - the good kind of "same" - of the normal game we would have played if not for that. Not sure if that sits well with me, still.

The only major flaw I see with it are two things: it gets repetitive, easily, and good god the soundtrack to when you get into fights is abysmal. It's fine the first time, but really? You couldn't switch it out every once and a while? Yech.

I'll say this; it's a game that I don't have a problem selling to my customers, and I game that I will never talk people out of if they ask me about it, unlike Sonic 06.

Now hold on there, cowboy. Shadow the Hedgehog and the Werewolf parts of Unleashed are two completely different things. One sucks hard and the other one is decent, if not repetitive.

I've only played very little of Unleashed, but from what I've played already, I can already say that Unleashed is actually... passable. It's the ONLY thing closest to even putting a smile on my face next to Sonic Chronicles, (which I personally don't think it counts, because of BioWare and all that). I mean, let's face it. Shadow was broken, bogged down, and just straight up lame.

Unleashed's unleashed levels are playable and, at its core, could be its own game. A few additions and some frame-rate issue fixes, and it's all good in the hood. The perfect way to describe it is that it's Kingdom Hearts and Devil May Cry, meshed together and then dumbed down for the kid-friendly atmosphere.

I'm not entirely sure what you're disagreeing with me on, my point was that whether or not the Werehog stages are good they're still a bad idea from the off.

It strikes me as being completely unhappy with just wanting to make a good Sonic game and wanting to tack on what they considered would improve the value for money rather than the actual game we want. When I first read the interviews Sonic Team explained that Werehog Sonic would be slightly slower but more agile, which made me think it would be the same gameplay style with different attributes and abilities, like old times. Instead we get a completely different gameplay style, something that has been cropping up again and again.

Now I was going to start making comparisons to the older games, were multiple gameplay styles got it right and wrong, but unless I play Unleashed I can't judge it fairly.

What I can say is this, when I first saw Sonic Unleashed's leaked footage I fell in love, when I saw Werehog Sonic's render I cringed like I did when I saw Shadow with an AK47, it's not that the concept is that bad compared, but more the idea that I knew it wasn't what I wanted from Sonic, and somehow I'd be forced to go along with it if I bought the game.

Also, I have the same feeling about Sonic with a sword, but I still feel they have a better chance of making that work well rather than adding a beat 'em up mode.

As far as Werehog stages go, the only things I'm finding really frustrating about them is PLATFORMING. The PLATFORMING segments are very annoying. The Holska night stage was passable, but now I'm currently tackling the Empire City night stage, and the beginning is awful. It doesn't help I kind of fail at platforming (and QTE, but that's beside the point) and the game is starting to become rather unforgiving at this point.

I absolutely love the day stages... but there is such a thing as going TOO fast. I've lost a few lives in the Chunan day stage because I flew past a checkpoint without going through it and careening off into the water, and as we all know, blue hedgehogs and water don't mix.

I don't see what the complaint is about the werehog levels, though. It's a beat-'em-up. And beat-em-ups are SUPPOSED to get repetitive after a while. Of course, the only one I ever recall playing is Final Fight... which had recolors. D:

I'm not entirely sure what you're disagreeing with me on, my point was that whether or not the Werehog stages are good they're still a bad idea from the off.

It strikes me as being completely unhappy with just wanting to make a good Sonic game and wanting to tack on what they considered would improve the value for money rather than the actual game we want. When I first read the interviews Sonic Team explained that Werehog Sonic would be slightly slower but more agile, which made me think it would be the same gameplay style with different attributes and abilities, like old times. Instead we get a completely different gameplay style, something that has been cropping up again and again.

Now I was going to start making comparisons to the older games, were multiple gameplay styles got it right and wrong, but unless I play Unleashed I can't judge it fairly.

What I can say is this, when I first saw Sonic Unleashed's leaked footage I fell in love, when I saw Werehog Sonic's render I cringed like I did when I saw Shadow with an AK47, it's not that the concept is that bad compared, but more the idea that I knew it wasn't what I wanted from Sonic, and somehow I'd be forced to go along with it if I bought the game.

Also, I have the same feeling about Sonic with a sword, but I still feel they have a better chance of making that work well rather than adding a beat 'em up mode.

Disagreeing on you throwing that mess of a clusterfudge game that was Shadow and comparing it with the Werewolf stages which are, like I said, fun and passable.

Trust me when I say I totally understand where you're coming from about, "Dammit, I want my Sonic back!" I feel the exact same way. But of all the damn "new ways to play" of Sonic lately, this one's been the one that's most endurable.

As for Sonic with a sword, I'm feeling the same thing you're feeling. I loved Secret Rings, (I'm sorry to many of those that disagree, the thing was fun and new, and it actually worked - with the exception of few unforgiving levels and challenges). While I love the fact that they're using the "story book" idea as a different world and story, (so that these characters may never show their face in any other Sonic game and thus, not cannon), I also hate the fact that it gives them the excuse of "LET'S EXPERIMENT!"

Which my answer to that is "NO!"

this RARE-esquse medal collect-a-thon.

"RARE esque"? RARE makes the most jokes about it, but it's by no means THEIR thing. In fact, some degree of collection is standard to platformers these days.

Disagreeing on you throwing that mess of a clusterfudge game that was Shadow and comparing it with the Werewolf stages which are, like I said, fun and passable.

Ah, fair enough. Still, I was replying to TTG claiming both Werehog and Shadow were good concepts. Which I still disagree with, though I will agree that werewolves and other types of mythic creatures and settings suit the Sonic world much better than military conspiracies, real world guns and deep heavy convoluted backstory by a HUGE margin.

As for the rest I agree. As much as Secret Rings seems to be frowned upon I still think it was a good setting for Sonic, and still has the best looking environments from what I've seen so far, plus I can't think of any other character that would work with that gameplay, so it's a spin off gameplay idea that's perfect for Sonic. But yeah, the idea that they could continue experimenting by mixing the gameplay features into something that's yet to master the basics is something I'd rather avoid.

*slips in*

SONIC SPINBALL WAS THE EPITOME OF THE SONIC GAMING EXPERIENCE

*slips back into shadows as the topic erupts into violent debate*

Hmmm. Actually It seems Capella didn't voice Chip. Its some guy named Tony Salerno. Of course places like IMDB and Wikipedia say its Pete but those places, Wikipedia especially, are always rife with errors. Theres a good chance a fan just heard Chip's voice and thought it was Pete and then edited the cast list on those sites. Even in the Night of the Werehog credits Pete's name isn't there. I checked to see if he has any alias'. He does but none of them match the credits in Night of the Werehog or Unleashed apparently.

But DAMN it sounds just like him.

It's possible he's going by an alias, the same way Jason did in Sonic and the Secret Rings.

Possibly but not likely. Somebody apparently spoke to Pete about it. But he didn't give a straight answer. All he said was that Wikipedia has all kinds of false information about him that he himself has tried to correct but it always un-corrects itself! Arg!Fans!. And on his myspace theres no mention of him having anything to do with Unleashed. Just Sonic 06.

This Tony Salerno person I looked up also has his own Wiki page and IMDB account page.(didn't see any photographs though) They are quite small compared to Pete's though. Plus his name is used in the credits of the NotW and the game. So....either Tony is a real person. Or nobody has been able to connect Tony as an alias to Pete. Which I see no reason why not. Why the heck do voice actors use Alias' anyway??

Edit: They both seem to have done voice work in the exact same shows too. Yu-Gi-Oh/GX, Pokemon, GI Joe Sigma 6, and Winx Club . Buuuut the largest piece of evidence that Chip is not voiced by Pete is this piece of information saying he left 4Kids. Buuuut once again I can't find any other mention of that outside of the unstable walls of Wikipedia.

It seems Hashimoto expected the Werehog reaction to be mixed.

Destructoid: We've all seen The Werehog, and it has been greeted with a mixed reaction from fans. How are you feeling about fan reception to the character?

Hashimoto: The current reactions were something we had expected. When we first started the Sonic Unleashed project, I created a concept document with the Art Director Sachiko Kawamura on a single piece of paper. At that point, Kawamura and I remember saying that "There will definitely be mixed reactions from Sonic fans!" However, I took it as receiving mixed reactions is not [necessarily] a bad thing, since it will bring discussions and also bring great impact as well. I personally feel that Werehog's design has come out very well. It has some degree of cuteness inside the wildness and while we can tell that it is Sonic, there are some appearances that he is not Sonic. Also, I feel that the gameplay has become very fun.

Its true. I want a werehog puppy.

Soooo he shot himself in the foot on purpose with the werehog concept to garner conversation? Uh. I guess thats good. It means he likes fan opinions.

<strong class="quote-title" B Vulpix wrote:

---

Why the heck do voice actors use Alias' anyway??

because this

.......SWEEEEEEEEET...

I mean....ahem >.> Well thats interesting....

It is Pete HAHAhahahaHAHAhahaa!

Seriously. If it wasn't Pete then when someone asked him if he voiced Chip he would have just said "no its not me its someone else" I mean he'd have nothing to loose if that were the truth, right? But he was very evasive.

Well, this is interesting. Apparently the reason why Sonic Team keeps putting in all these "twists" -- with multiple playable characters and the such is because Sonic is too fast.

Personally, I honestly wouldn't mind a short Sonic game. I mean, the other Sonic games took a few hours to beat. Just add online time-attack, some cool achievements, and some other random things, and you'll have me playing for days.

You may not mind it, but in this day and age, games are being pushed more and more to have more life and depth to them. It's a tricky balance to achieve.

but in this day and age, games are being pushed more and more to have more life and depth to them

Unless you're making a game for the Wii! Zing!

Life and depth? You mean more grunge and lifeless brown. The only color around being the gallons of blood splatter you can create.

Fable 2 is a very short game with lots to explore that you don't have to do at all, the story could probably be completed in one play through, but if you wanted the game itself could be played for months with the amount there is outside the story.

Sonic could go along that route, especially in 3D.

By life I mean LONGEVITY. How long you're playing and what it offers you to unlock, earn, and replay.

Fable 2 is a very short game with lots to explore that you don't have to do at all, the story could probably be completed in one play through, but if you wanted the game itself could be played for months with the amount there is outside the story.

Sonic could go along that route, especially in 3D.

Fable is an RPG.

So? Well how about Mario Galaxy then?

To finish the game is rather simple, just go after the 60 easy stars, there's still another 60 more challenging Stars to get, completely optional.

Doesn't Unleashed have that? I mean, there's quite a few unlockable stages and whatnot, as well as the sidequests.

Either way, if Sega wants to build a mechanic around Sonic's primary ability like they did in Unleashed and design levels accordingly, finding a way to balance that is going to be a problem. The levels are STILL gonna be vast, and they're still gonna be limited in some fashion, so they'll still need to find a way to work around it.

<strong class="quote-title" B Vulpix wrote:

---

Life and depth? You mean more grunge and lifeless brown. The only color around being the gallons of blood splatter you can create.

YOU'VE INSULTED GAMES CREATED BY SIR CLIFFY B. >=(

The trouble is that they are trying to artifically extend the play time of the game on the first run through. Which is fine for a Fable or a Zelda game but the reason they haven't been able to do the same for Sonic is because he isn't about talking to people called Error or being a lesbian and Stephen Fry's lackey at the same time. And thus it feels very tacked on.

If they intergrated the werehog style fights and platforming into the daytime levels rather than splitting them up, might have brought this game some better criticism.

The lastability with Sonic games should come from multiple routes, obscure puzzles with red and white barrels and to a lesser extent: Time Attacks.

Ironically they kinda got this right with that game with ol' Angsty.

obscure puzzles with red and white barrels

And this is where communication breaks down.

EDIT - I should clarify. "Guide dangit" moments are the worst means of artificially extending difficulty and play time.

Honestly, did anybody LIKE Carnival Knight's barrel and Sandopolis's endless slide?

Just beat the game . Other then taking 45 minutes to beat Eggmanland, I thought the last parts of the game where really good. The last boss is really cool too; something to look forward to if you havn't finished the game.

this RARE-esquse medal collect-a-thon.

"RARE esque"? RARE makes the most jokes about it, but it's by no means THEIR thing. In fact, some degree of collection is standard to platformers these days.

RARE made it their thing when they actually broke the Guiness Book of Records for "Most Collectables in a Game" for DK64. I'm not kidding, it's there.

Also I'm confused about why is Werehog, the medal collecting, and Tornado mini-games is essential for this game to have longetivity and depth. Couldn't the same be acheived through slowing Sonic down a bit that he will be more controllable and having all the stages(even night ones--which would be altered in a hypothetical sense) accessable as him? The Sonic levels themselves will have depth and life the game needs. It will probably be even well-recieved by critrics and non-Sonic fans also.

This post at another forum explains the issue rather well, I think:

http://sonicblast.org/topic/7053192/1/

Arguably, the most common answer to "fixing" Sonic that you will hear from the media to the fanbase to the gaming community and other unmentioned factions is very simple: Running only! On a logical level, it makes sense. After all, that was the unique gameplay Sonic pioneered; Speedy platforming is his thing. Nearly everyone likes and prefers it to the other gameplay styles Sega have conjured up. Sometimes the other play styles are indeed noticeably mediocre in comparison. And other franchises have done well with perfecting one formula. But here's the question it seems no one has ever asked--

Can any developer even do that?

I ask this because this link surfaced and offered some interesting yet badly written insight:

I asked one of the developers at TGS, you know I was like, come on everybody just wants Sonic running, like whats up with the werehog? And he was like, well, heres the deal... he runs at this miles per hour, kilometers per hour, and he laid out all of the statistics on how fast this hedgehog goes, and he was like In order to make a game where Sonic is running and everybody enjoys the whole thing we'd have to design this many miles of level, and it was some ungodly number. And he's like and that would be like maybe a three hour game...

So in short, the problem with the idea meshing with modern times is that this demand is nigh impossible to fulfill because Sonic just runs too damn fast to make a game with modern technology long enough to be worth the full price tag! It's hilariously ironic, don't you think?! Seriously, that is funny!

But my amusement was halted when my brother haughtily dismissed Sega's supposed predicament, citing the size of GTA4's Liberty City as an example counter. Ignoring the fact that it's the only place to visit and Niko can only dream of traveling at Sonic's speeds anyways, it made me wonder....

Just what would account for an eight-hour Sonic game? How many levels would that be? How long would they have to be? [Note: You are free to correct me on my math at anytime. I'm notoriously bad at it.]--

Since Unleashed is the par for Sonic's abilities and level length, I will be using that for my calculations. In that game, he can run approx. 300 mph or 5 miles per minute. The largest level in Unleashed is over 10 km long or 6.21 miles. That means that Sonic can theoretically zip from one end of arguably the longest Sonic level in existence to the other at a minimal time of just 0.02 hours or 1.2 minutes.

Now, accounting all mainstream 3D Sonic games since Adventure (Secret Rings excluded), the mean number of speed-oriented levels is 12. If this kooky Sonic game had 12 levels at a maximum length of 10 km, then you wouldn't even play the whole game for an hour-- just 14.4 minutes.

Now, in order to make a game eight hours, the amount of overall playtime would have to be expanded to 480 minutes which means each level would have to play for 40 minutes. And if each level takes 40 minutes to finish, Sonic would be running across stretches of land that are 200 miles or 321 km long.

Let's try to downsize that task by doing the obvious-- increasing the number of levels. After all, we know Sonic levels don't take 40 minutes to finish unless you're a horrific player (No, not even the Werehog himself is an excuse x3). So I'm going to toss out a reasonable number like... seven minutes; seven minutes per level. Now, if each level takes seven minutes to complete, dividing that by eight hours or 480 minutes grants you the number 68.5 which rounds up to 69 levels.

I think we can all agree that the fact that the levels would have to be over 30 times their maximum length or that the game would have to have over five times the number of levels they normally have today is rather mind-blowing.

Of course, my math is all based on the theoretical. I'm not taking into account cutscenes, menu navigation, loading, bosses, and even level design itself where it forces you to slow you down. But still, Classic Sonic games by today's standards are too short for a $60 price, so imagine the horror Sonic Team must have felt about such a task to create 3D game based only on this style of play when they first decided to convert Sonic into 3D 10 years ago, especially when he wasn't nearly as fast. That's a scary thought.

Honestly, considering all of the work that goes into game production beyond Sonic's speed and level length, maybe they knew what they were doing all along and we were just a bit too blind to see the sheer size of the task that comes with delivering what we've been asking for. Or maybe Sonic games just shouldn't be conceived so big in the first place. Maybe they should be slower and shorter as their 2D ancestors are. Would you mind that? Would you prefer that? And what do you think of the math above? Did I completely screw up or put into perspective just what the hell Sonic Team has been dealing with for years? xD

This is an interesting discussion. If Sonic Team made a Sonic only game, with just running (no required treasure hunting, no extra playablecharacters, etc.) with levels like Sonic Unleashed -- the game would surely hardly last even 2 hours.

What can be implemented to make the game last longer to satisfy a full game price tag? They could simply put it on Xbox Live Market, but I surely doubt they'd get a profit out of the cheap pricetag it'd need to have.

And while stuff like Mega Man 9 is good for what it is, it's not a valid vehicle to carry an entire franchise.

lol this is simple

You take out the Werehog levels. This will then take down the price. More people are happy. Other neat extras could then exist such as optional characters after beating it. Like imagine playing as Metal Sonic through.

Anyhow I completed it (360 version) and the last level is quite long. Prolly the longest level in Sonic history. I mean... look at this time trial thing:

Um yea.

You take out the Werehog levels. This will then take down the price.

Economics don't work that way.

This is an interesting discussion. If Sonic Team made a Sonic only game, with just running (no required treasure hunting, no extra playablecharacters, etc.) with levels like Sonic Unleashed -- the game would surely hardly last even 2 hours.

What can be implemented to make the game last longer to satisfy a full game price tag? They could simply put it on Xbox Live Market, but I surely doubt they'd get a profit out of the cheap pricetag it'd need to have.

Howabout this, Sega drops all this emphasis on numbers on how fast Sonic is supposed to be, slow him down and allow the illusion that he's going fast. An example of this is found in the game Okami, when Ammy ran full speed the game gave the impression that she's really fast by showing interesting effects such as flowers flowing in her wake and some speed lines. In reality, she is probably slower than Sonic in Unleashed, but it felt like she was going fast and more importantly, she was easier to control than Sonic.

And as I said, they could also add more levels(turn the dang night time levels into regular Sonic levels), with more emphasis on platforming than just "holding right gameplay". With a slower Sonic, more controlable Sonic, you don't need to rely on gimmicks such as Werehog.

This way it will probably make the game longer if they are so dang worried about length. Also, it might be easier to impliment a momentum-based Sonic game like the ones in the past this way.

Razorsaw wrote:

And while stuff like Mega Man 9 is good for what it is, it's not a valid vehicle to carry an entire franchise.

No one said that this franchise should just be limited to DD. However, I do think it's a great platform for niche games and games that are pretty short to justify spending $50-$60. Also, who says it won't become a valid vehicle to carry a franchise next gen or any gen after that? Early last gen, no one though much of online console gaming, and now look how far that concept has come.

And as I said, they could also add more levels(turn the dang night time levels into regular Sonic levels), with more emphasis on platforming than just "holding right gameplay". With a slower Sonic, more controlable Sonic, you don't need to rely on gimmicks such as Werehog.

At what point then should they stop looking at and trying to expand Sonic's main ability? I think Sonic Unleashed's day stages struck the proper balance of "moving forward" and keeping the player busy, with obstacles and a measure of platforming and managing the boost properly to collect rings and keep it sustained.

Slowing him down or using "tricks" like what you described from Okami... don't strike me as the way to go when they've engineered a mechanic that feels closer to what Sonic's actual POWER is than the momentum based mechanics of the Genesis days.

As for "adding more levels", with how massive they are, we've already gone into how that doesn't necessarily work, considering how massive the levels have to be.

I honestly think that the fandom should adapt more. Obviously the werehog isn't perfect, and could be refined in the future. Perhaps it could be made more specific to Sonic by having him decide (providing an IC reason) to slow down in certain areas, populated by enemies that are more powerful than the standard variety and force Sonic to use melee attacks built more around his quickness. Basically, the werehog concept, but built around Sonic himself, with changed fighting mechanics and a combat system he can't use in the "daytime."

No one said that this franchise should just be limited to DD. However, I do think it's a great platform for niche games and games that are pretty short to justify spending $50-$60. Also, who says it won't become a valid vehicle to carry a franchise next gen or any gen after that? Early last gen, no one though much of online console gaming, and now look how far that concept has come.

Maybe, but we kind of only have the ability to talk about the here and now, and not "maybes."

And speaking of way to fix Sonic here IGN.

"The real Sonic fans, those who grew up with Sonic and want nothing more than to see the series rise again to be a tier one franchise, are caught in the crossfire of Sega's continued attempts to either a) make a game for kids, or b) reinvent the series in some questionable way (maybe for kids as well). "

Yes let us ignore the kiddies and add blood, gore and sex to Sonic games. While we at it, let remove the colorful "kiddie" graphics. Let throw some of those mature brown and metal grey graphics from non kiddies games like Gears of War 2 and GTA IV. Yes this will make the games sell millions of copies .

"In addition to 2D segments like those found in Sonic Unleashed, there would be seamless first-person perspective segments. The track/level would then be divided into X number of lanes that I could move into by simply tapping the control pad left or right, with double-taps letting me move two at a time. "

Basically, he want Sonic to be Faith from Mirror's Edge.

"Get enough coins, and Sonic will morph into Super Sonic where he gains a speed boost and is invulnerable to any attacks (but not ledge drops)"

Wow I didn't know Sonic needed COINS to become Super Sonic .

"One possible control mechanic for speed would be using the triggers. Like a racing game, one would make Sonic start running, and the other would cause him to slowly "brake." Similarly, the A button would be used for a bullet-time effect to help you catch a certain power-up or avoid a particular enemy. "

"The jumping would be tighter - Sonic's jump has always been a bit too floaty for me, kind of like Luigi in Super Mario Bros. 2. I'd have a quicker, more refined jump for him to make platforming more predictable, and more satisfying. "

Sonic is supposed to float because it help him land properly on a platform. Especially when they are moving.

Yea I saw that thing on IGN, didn't read it though. I'm about to give up on Sega...seriously. I've got a bag of games to trade in at Gamestop...in that bag are, ShtH, Sonic Heroes, SA2: B[have 2 on DC] and SADX[have 1 on DC]. I'm keeping SMC and SGC...because the games in there...are *gasps* good. As for floating Sonic...yea it's somewhat required.

Now, now Shadonic...ignoring the kiddies wouldn't necessarily imply the addition of blood, sex, etc[not like you were serious anyway] but I mean...i'm still lost. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are the ones all of my nonSonic fanboy friends know from the 3D era as great. And yea...they're right, those are the great ones. Then they remember the 2D classics...some like, some not so much. There's a possibilty that Sonic's time, as much as I hate to say this, is up. He's had his "run". =/ Then again ST and Sega have gone through some changes as far as employees go, so this could be the problem. We'll see how this Sonic and the Black Knight turns out and if it's not decent...I may call it quits[not like the series isn't already out of my top 5 anyway].

And coins...for SuperSonic. *giggles* I've made that mistake before too. =X

There's a possibilty that Sonic's time, as much as I hate to say this, is up.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And speaking of way to fix Sonic here IGN.

*slaps Shadonic*

It's IGN. Not some website that matters. I never wanna see an IGN artilce on how to butcher Sonic more help Sonic in my range of vision. >:O

Basically, he want Sonic to be Faith from Mirror's Edge.

Considering Mirror's Edge physics engine feels more what Sonic used to be in the Genesis days, this is a bad thing because...?

Slowing him down or using "tricks" like what you described from Okami... don't strike me as the way to go when they've engineered a mechanic that feels closer to what Sonic's actual POWER is than the momentum based mechanics of the Genesis days.

But neither is Unleashed.

As for the fanbase adapting to the series' direction, I'm not sure that can entirely happen. Since I have a feeling this will be the last time we will see gameplay that is similar to Werehog due to the backlash and for a future Sonic entry Sonic Team will create an entirely new gimmick to artifically lengthen the game that will probably get as much backlash as the last gimmicks did.

HyperSonic2003 wrote:

Yea I saw that thing on IGN, didn't read it though. I'm about to give up on Sega...seriously. I've got a bag of games to trade in at Gamestop...in that bag are, ShtH, Sonic Heroes, SA2: B[have 2 on DC] and SADX[have 1 on DC]. I'm keeping SMC and SGC...because the games in there...are *gasps* good. As for floating Sonic...yea it's somewhat required.

Now, now, no need to give up on Sega when you meant to say "I'm about to give up on Sonic" You know Sega is more than Sonic

Sonic's been pretty much SOL since Heroes.

What they have to do is just stop trying to make something new, and try making something old feel "new and fresh" again. For god's sakes, look at Mario Galaxy. It's practically a pretty looking Mario 64 with the "galaxy worlds" concept. Not much different, right? Sold amazingly and got immense response. Look at Sunshine. You added Fludd for a different style of Mario game? Yeah, no. Nobody bought it, it is currently one of the worst selling Mario games, and not very many people liked the game, (I know I hated it).

Sega needs to just give Sonic the "old school" feel and run with it. Take those 2D portions from Unleashed and make an entire game out of that, with the physics to resemble that of the Genesis games, (or at least Adventure 2, minus the camera glitches). Don't want it to be the same through out the entire thing? Okay, throw in some 3D portions like they were doing in Unleashed already, (don't make them as long), and flip back to 2D when the time is right, and the game is on it's way to awesomeness.

Bring back some good special stages, if need be. Don't just make 6 or 8 levels, or whatever, double that if you're worried about length. If you're worried about length, still, bring Tails and Knuckles back in play, (and that's it), and give them different routes, just like in Sonic 3.

I mean, is it really that hard to try again, what made that franchise so good?

Sonic's been pretty much SOL since Heroes.

What they have to do is just stop trying to make something new, and try making something old feel "new and fresh" again. For god's sakes, look at Mario Galaxy. It's practically a pretty looking Mario 64 with the "galaxy worlds" concept. Not much different, right? Sold amazingly and got immense response. Look at Sunshine. You added Fludd for a different style of Mario game? Yeah, no. Nobody bought it, it is currently one of the worst selling Mario games, and not very many people liked the game, (I know I hated it).

Sega needs to just give Sonic the "old school" feel and run with it. Take those 2D portions from Unleashed and make an entire game out of that, with the physics to resemble that of the Genesis games, (or at least Adventure 2, minus the camera glitches). Don't want it to be the same through out the entire thing? Okay, throw in some 3D portions like they were doing in Unleashed already, (don't make them as long), and flip back to 2D when the time is right, and the game is on it's way to awesomeness.

Bring back some good special stages, if need be. Don't just make 6 or 8 levels, or whatever, double that if you're worried about length. If you're worried about length, still, bring Tails and Knuckles back in play, (and that's it), and give them different routes, just like in Sonic 3.

I mean, is it really that hard to try again, what made that franchise so good?

QFT.

Sonic's been pretty much SOL since Heroes.

What they have to do is just stop trying to make something new, and try making something old feel "new and fresh" again. For god's sakes, look at Mario Galaxy. It's practically a pretty looking Mario 64 with the "galaxy worlds" concept. Not much different, right? Sold amazingly and got immense response. Look at Sunshine. You added Fludd for a different style of Mario game? Yeah, no. Nobody bought it, it is currently one of the worst selling Mario games, and not very many people liked the game, (I know I hated it).

You do know Sunshine sold 5.5 millions copies, making it the third best selling 3D Mario game behind Galaxy, right? Not to mention it has a Metacritic score 92 .
Seem to me Sunshine wasn't the failure you claim it was.

I don't recall Sonic being anything like Mirror's edge. O.o

But neither is Unleashed.

But the thing is, I LIKE going that fact. I like the quickstep and the boost and all the other bells and whistles and I don't think it needs to be dropped to go back to momentum and physics based running, and I think the boost mechanic's emphasis on being properly managed and maintained through ring collection benefits Sonic's identity more and gives the rings more to do than simply be a shield from dying.

As for the fanbase adapting to the series' direction, I'm not sure that can entirely happen. Since I have a feeling this will be the last time we will see gameplay that is similar to Werehog due to the backlash and for a future Sonic entry Sonic Team will create an entirely new gimmick to artifically lengthen the game that will probably get as much backlash as the last gimmicks did.

And if that's what pickyness and inflexibility get us, I'm not sure I can sympathize with the fandom.

What they have to do is just stop trying to make something new, and try making something old feel "new and fresh" again. For god's sakes, look at Mario Galaxy. It's practically a pretty looking Mario 64 with the "galaxy worlds" concept. Not much different, right? Sold amazingly and got immense response. Look at Sunshine. You added Fludd for a different style of Mario game? Yeah, no. Nobody bought it, it is currently one of the worst selling Mario games, and not very many people liked the game, (I know I hated it).

As the post before you shows, this is quantifiably untrue.

Yeah so Mario Sunshine wasn't the best Mario game ever...Its still a good Mario game. Its not a BAD game.

Sunshine was a failure when compared to SM64, and Galaxy. On it's own, it was still a decent game.