The sheer levels of WIN this idea inspires are completely beyond the capabillity of expression! Particularly if this co-op was extended to online play, so you could play people across the globe as different characters.

This simply MUST be made!!!

And furthermore, a game like that would actually make a massive roster actually work and be more fun. Each character would be broken down of course, to the Speed/Flight/Power subcategories, but within those, different traits could unlock even more exclusive paths. For example, let's say you had a room that isn't accessible by the team? Why is this? Because you have a speed style trap room with a switch at the end. However it has motion detectors. So not only can your teammates not follow into the switch room, but if the Speed character is detected by cameras, instant death pillars from above kill the teammates waiting on the outside room. Mystic Cave Zone style! So your team is forced to take the straight path together instead.

Unless of course, you have ESPIO on your team! Cameras can't detect him if he's DUN DUN DUN, invisible. I think every character could have their own exclusive path at least twice within the game.

To add on, since a game like this would have alternate paths within levels, why not pull another Shadow the Hedgehog and make alternate endings. However, rather than having to finish the game ten different times, just make the "final" ending the hardest one to obtain. Meaning you gotta take all the mondo hard paths together to get the hardcore ending. This could perhaps be more difficult with a team consisting of lower class character like Amy, Big, or Cream.

The separate paths and goals would be completely hidden, rather than just "switching objectives" like in Shadow the Hedgehog. Different paths could lead to different boss battles. And think of how intricate they could get with bosses with this team style play. Imagine facing some massive boss, but at the same time, having to face the Robot swarms, like in Sonic Heroes. You would have to have a speed character keep the robot swarms off your back, since they are fast enough to provide cover. Have the flight character do something up high to dismantle the boss' defenses somehow. And when the boss' guard is down, the power character delivers the damage dealing blow. Of course, there would be alternatives, in case one team member goes down.

And I'd also be all for the true final boss taking it back to Sonic 2 final boss days, and have NO RINGS. Bam!

Roster could include your basic Sonic Heroes cast, plus a few more:

-Speed:

Sonic

Shadow

Amy

Espio

Blaze

Jet

Flight

-Tails

-Charmy

-Cream

-Rouge

-Wave

-RAY THE FLYING SQUIRELL!!!!

Power

-KNUCKLES YO!

-Omega

-Vector

-BIG!!!! FIND FROGGY!

-Silver

-WTF?!! MIGHTY?!?!

Bosses can range from new Eggman machines, to old throwbacks. Metal Sonic, Mecha Sonic(from Sonic 2's Death Egg Zone), Mecha Sonic MK2(from Sky Sanctuary Zone), Chaos forms(forms change depending on path), Biolizard, whatever. Old enemies and new enemies.

I would so play this game. Let it go up to four players. If you go at it in one player mode, you can only go down a straight path. Meaning if you wanna go solo as Sonic, you can only take the paths that it allows for a Speed character. Knuckles can only take the power paths, etc. As the story progresses, you can meet up with new teammates. Sonic would have Tails and Knuckles, Shadow would have Rouge and Omega, etc. As you meet them, they are sort of "unlocked." So at the beginning of each level, you can chose any party member. But they aren't going all together. So if you want to take one path of the storyline as Team Heroes, you would have to play the level as Knuckles all the way through, and take a direct power path.

So you still have the options of going through different paths. But it's much more free during co-op play. But of course, it would also have to be much harder.

If only I had some way to pitch this idea to Sega. *sigh*

Never gonna happen.

Man. I've been thinking about how they would do a Gears of Hog for a while. Mostly because online coop is the new eating things makes you fat, eh?

First rule: You have 4 people minimum.

Second rule: No "teams". You have have a pure speed based team or whatever.

Third rule: Try to make every character unique.

Huge levels.

Im too tired to make a better post.

The concept is excellent, and with Grade-A execution could have Game of the Decade caliber results. Unforturnately, Sega still needs to perfect the basics of 3D Sonic before attempting such an endeavor.

Some suggestions for character specific abilities:
Sonic - Boost Mode. Gives him speed to escape traps that would catch other Speed characters, but makes it difficult to turn or counterattack without slowing to normal speeds. Light Speed Attack(Now Sonic exclusive)

Shadow - Chaos Spear. Long distance projectile capable of hitting remote target that are otherwise out of range. Chargeable similar to Light Speed Attack

Amy - Piko Piko Hammer. Greatest brute strength of non-power characters.
Espio - Invisibility and ability to walk on walls and ceiling.

Blaze - Pyrokinesis. Automatic defense against heat, fire, lava, etc, useful for offense, and can destroy certain barriers. Unusable when submerged in water.
Tails - Combination of Sonic Adventure and Tails' Adventures arsenals. Tails double as a buzzsaw at maximum speed. Greatest running speed of non-speed characters.
Cream - Chao Throw of Death at Advance 2 power. Shortest flight time of flying characters.
Charmy - Infinite flight time and ability to hover perfectly still.
Rouge - Her Sonic Adventure 2 arsenal minus the digging and replacing the gliding with proper flying.
Knuckles - His entire Sonic Adventure arsenal
Omega - Laser cannon with multishot lock-on capabilities.
Silver - Telekinesis

Oh yea...I was thinking of this brillance during my playthrough of SH[after half a year of hating it]. I mean...they laid the ground work for it. Considering how funbly the controls in Heroes were when first picked up, if each character could be controlled by a person[provided certain seperation limitations] a well executed group of players could accomplish some ridiculous things. *Honestly...i'm all for a Sonic Heroes 2. As long as SEGA learns from the downsides of SH1.*

* Never in my life...did I think i'd say that. What's wrong with me?! lol

Knuckles also needs that awesome shockwave attack from Sonic 06. Because he's Knuckles!

I'll give Sonic 06 and Shadow the Hedgehog this much. They had an interesting arsenal of enemies. If you really thing about it, a lot of Eggman's robots in Sonic 06, where the equivalent of SA2 GUNN bosses. Just as big, just as many deadly projectile attacks, and more hits to kill. They definitely did establish a gap in power between characters. Because yeah, you can justify Sonic, Shadow, Omega, or Knuckles taking them down, because they're 00ber n' whatever. But I'm glad they made characters like Tails and Rouge, who realistically have no super strength or anything, resort to throwing bombs.

I like the ideas guys. Keep em' rolling.

On the note of making each character unique, one idea that comes to mind is adapting the move-sets from Sonic Battle to the platforming genre.

Some ideas to add to Silv's suggested roster:

Chaos 0 - Power, stretchy limbs can double as grappling hooks, and the ability to become an amorphous blob grants access to passages too small for other characters.

Gemerl - Custom, abilities are determined by player customization. New Skills are unlocked whenever Gemerl completes a mission with the skills unlocked determined by the performance of Gemerl's player and his teammates.

And perhaps, just as fun, post-game material, Metal Sonic, Metal Knuckles, Tails Doll, and Egg Robo are included as unlockables.

so you could play people across the globe as different characters.

This simply MUST be made!!!

um.. i'd get confused seeing so many sonics walk around the screen.... and a sonic game online <whispering> everyone will see how bad i play? that's kinda embarrassing. 
however if you could make the game 2d online like something between maple story and sonic advance's style and have the ability to customize your furry animal character.. that would be nice.
the main sonic characters could be the ... what do they call them NPC characters? in the game.

P.S: NO BIG THE CAT!!! he scares me and no one would play him besides we already have one purple cat, she's enough.

so you could play people across the globe as different characters.

This simply MUST be made!!!

um.. i'd get confused seeing so many sonics walk around the screen.... and a sonic game online <whispering> everyone will see how bad i play? that's kinda embarrassing. 
however if you could make the game 2d online like something between maple story and sonic advance's style and have the ability to customize your furry animal character.. that would be nice.
the main sonic characters could be the ... what do they call them NPC characters? in the game. .

When I said playing online, I wasn't nessecerily thinking MMORPG style. From the OP's comparison to Sonic Heroes in the first post, I was thinking each lobby would be a game, and characters would be delt out on a first come-first served basis within that lobby. So if you join a game where one player is already playing Sonic, he'd be unselectable for you and you'd have to choose someone different. And lobby attendance would be limited by the number of playable characters the game offers, so if there was Sonic, Knux, Tails and Amy only, the maximum number of players in a single lobby would be four (not that I would limit it to four, just using that as an example).

And are you sure everybody would play Sonic? I'm not convinced there would be hundreds of Sonics running around tbh I for one would almost exclusively play Knuckles, he's by far the coolest character in the series, way better than the true blue one. And I may occasionally hop on Tails or perhaps Espio once in a while too. Sonic would only come about middle on my character preference list...

okay i get you, but i still think it's a bad idea. cause i know it'll be packed with kids, no offence kids but you use the bathroom every second and you choose the worst times to play online. you'd be asked to wait or get ditched during the game, that really takes the fun out of it. and from what you're saying, its mandatory to have 3 different classes of heroes present to finish the game. so losing one of the players will stop your progress.

also there will be too many people playing sonic for sure, every newbie rule. play the main hero first.

Ideally, such a game would include:

A single player option where you either (1) play a solo character and can only explore part of each level on a single run, or (2) play with Sonic Heroes style character switching.
Local Multiplayer that maxes out at the the console's controller limit.
LAN play to allow locally networked consoles to do multiplayer with a screen per player.
"Friend Code" online play that limits each group to those who have traded network information.
Global online with teams composed of random people from around the world.

As for storyline(if any) and progression though levels:
Each levels is 1 chapter of story written in such a way that play order makes little difference.
Playable characters are unlocked as you encounter them in the storyline.*
Most levels having two or three exits with levels connected in a web similar to Super Mario World.
Most exits are reachable during solo runs.
All levels requiring a diverse team set-up to thoroughly explore on a single run.

*For example, one level might have an exit in the form of a dimensional vortex that transports you to Blaze's universe, and she joins your roster at the beginning of the level that you unlock as a result of finding said vortex. Or Omega joins the roster after you find in one of Eggman's warehouses.

I actually had a "map" of levels similar to Super Mario World/Star Fox 64 in mind. Okay, I was going over this with a personal friend of mine, a fellow true Sonic fan, and we came up with some more ideas for this game that would equal awesome.

First of all, separate paths of zones would be throwbacks to all different styles of Sonic games. The first level for every character would be your generic "green" paradise level. All fun and games. Certain paths will lead you through more Eggman base levels. Other paths would lead you through more natural, ruins, Angel Island-like levels. Here you'd have your Lava Reefs, Sandopolis' Ice Caps, etc.

This game would in fact take the Sonic Adventure approach in the aspect that there will be sub-game sections that veer away from traditional gameplay. Meaning, if you go through Ice Cap Zone, you better bet your pretty little behind that there will be a snowboarding section. We build on this idea. Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, or whatever party you go in with, is going through Ice Cap Zone... OH NO! AVALANCHE!!! Only this isn't your typical avalanche that requires you to snowboard your way through an escape. This avalanche becomes... AN AVALANCHE MONSTER!!!!! Why? Just because. Big evil face made out of flying snow clouds... don't get eaten! You're also being bombed by Badniks. Try to get them to miss you, and take out the avalanche monster! Mini boss! Wooh! Also, as well as badniks, there will be Giant Yeti monsters swarming all over the mountain to fight as well. Why? Just because.

If you beat him before you get to the end of the level, you make it to, uh, whatever the next level would be. If not, you retreat into that uh... castle over there? Yes! Only it's infested with ZOMBIES! But you can't go out, because the Avalanche monster is out there! Nevermind the fact that this haunted castle is filled with flesh-eating ZOMBIES, and a mad scientist who plans to unleash them all on Mobiu---Earth! But he didn't count on a certain blue hedgehog stumbling in.

Obviously, the mission-failure path, will have more silly irrelevent stories. But by accomplishing the more challenging feats, you uncover the real story. How is this a good thing?

Well, first off, it offers a challenging style of gameplay that keeps the older, more experienced Sonic fans on their toes. That Avalanche Monster is by no means easy to defeat within the time limit. However, younger, less skilled players aren't penalized, because even if you don't do those challenging feats, you can still progress through and beat the game. Unlike Shadow the Hedgehog, you don't just switch you mission at any given time. Instead, yes, beating to Zone a certain way would lead to a different level, but it's up to you to figure out how to do it. I call it the Star Fox 64 approach. But like I said before, doing the bare minimum opens up paths to less serious, and more irrelevant storylines, like the haunted house level stated below. Still entertaining though. The easy ending would be say, you taking out an Eggman mech... but it turns out to be unmanned. Sure you stopped its reign of terror, and saved the day, but Eggman's still out there. Where the more challenging paths lead to more intense, eath-shattering storylines. You'll find yourself in the middle of a war between the Eggman Empire and Black Aleins(for examples' sake), and the final battle will lead to his actual doomsday device in space.

Secondly, this offers a great ton of replay value. In addition to adding replay value, remember all those upgrades you'd find for your characters in the Sonic Adventure games? The light shoes, the shovel gloves, etc? Well this game has these as well. Upgrades floating around all over the place for each character. However, finding these items isn't mandatory, and for the most part, they are hidden. You can go through the game without them, but if you find these secret upgrades, it will make it a hella easier to complete the tougher challenges. Now let's say, you have a hidden upgrade in some underground cave in Ice Cap Zone for Vector, to give him say, his flamethrower attack from Heroes. It will always be hidden in the same place, for the same character, regardless of who you're playing as. So even say, Omega could pick up that upgrade for Vector. These would be hidden all throughout the game.

Characters would have their basic moves. Their standard B Attack their holding B attack, their special double jump, and an aerial B attack. All of these can be upgraded.

Example: Sonic

Standard B: Somersault

Holding B: Spindash

Double Jump: Homing Attack

Aerial B: Bounce

These attacks would be fairly weak, but with upgrades, Sonic could get, say, the Fire Somersault. Of course, a speed character will never hit as hard as a Power character at full upgrade, but it makes the game more enjoyable. Sonic would eventually upgrade to Tornado Attacks, so he could at least hold his own against bigger enemies. Sonic's spindash however, when coming in contact with an enemy, would stop Sonic in his tracks, but would damage the enemy and knock him down for a moment if it doesn't KO. Sonic and other speed characters don't really have issues taking out smaller badniks like buzz bombers. But once the giant mechs roll in, that's where you need a power character.

Tails:

Standard B: Tail Spin

Holding B: Spindash (THATS RIGHT! TAILS AND KNUCKLES CAN SPINDASH AGAIN!)

Double Jump: Flight

Aerial B: BOMBS!

That's right, Tails, along with all flying characters can do bombing runs. Of course, his Tail dash is weak as hell, and to start, his bombs can only stun. But with an upgrade, they'd both stun, and do damage. Tails's tail spin would actually be a spin attack that would launch a boomerang-like attack that resembles his tails. The advantage Tails and other flying characters have in combat, is that despite being the weakest, they can attack with projectile attacks from a safe distance.

Knuckles:

Standard B: Punch (mad strong)

Holding B: Spindash

Double Jump: Glide/Climb

Aerial B: Shockwave

His standard Punch can take down medium-sized badniks in one hit easily, as opposed to say a Homing Attack, which would take three. His spindash, unlike Sonic's can go through multiple enemies, and is also 3x stronger. The shockwave would be Knuckles punching the ground, taking out a wide range of enemies. This can stun enemies as well, and knock them off their feet. Making it easier to punch em' down. Upgrades would include turning his standard punch into a more powerful attack that takes massive sized mechs down in few to one hit, which would give speed and flight characters some serious trouble. Shockwaves are upgradable to wide-range explosions.

Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, are just three examples. While speed, flight and power characters all have certain basic qualities in common, they still all possess unique skills. For example, Omega is a power character, but would be more shooting based. He'd be slower than Knuckles, and lack the ability to climb (though he would have his booster to glide). However, being a power character with ranged attacks offers some serious business.

Another sub-game, would be the return of Sky Chase Zone. One character pilots the Tornado, while the other two control front and rear guns. Of course, you'd be attacking Eggman's flying fortress. Having four players give you the edge of having two separate planes, each with one pilot, and one gunner. The objective would be to take out Eggman's flying fortress. However, if you're shot down before this, then it leads to your party crash-landing on the Flying Fortress and forced into another level. Taking out the flying fortress would lead to Eggman's retreat into space, or somewhere more relevant. Obviously, finishing the easy way leads to the storyline characters being distracted from the actual objective my unfolding, irrelevant events.

So overall, we have ourselves, more detail on altering levels, the replay value in finding secret items, and the significance. While your basic attacks made buzz bombers in the first levels a breeze, if you don't get those upgrades, you're in for a long and difficult run while Eggman's massive mechs swarm you in his Flying Fortress.

I'm really thinking of working on the actual map of levels, and really organizing this whole game idea. But I'm grateful for the feedback, both positive and negative.

A lot of the ideas presented her so far have sounded pretty awesome, especially the Lylat Wars way of path forming, and I'd love to see a game like this produced - like a hybrid of the better elements of Heroes, Chronicals, Shadow, and Adventure. However there's one issue I can easily see as being unpopular amoung other fans.

Silv wrote:

---

If you beat him before you get to the end of the level, you make it to, uh, whatever the next level would be. If not, you retreat into that uh... castle over there? Yes! Only it's infested with ZOMBIES! But you can't go out, because the Avalanche monster is out there! Nevermind the fact that this haunted castle is filled with flesh-eating ZOMBIES, and a mad scientist who plans to unleash them all on Mobiu---Earth! But he didn't count on a certain blue hedgehog stumbling in.

Obviously, the mission-failure path, will have more silly irrelevent stories. But by accomplishing the more challenging feats, you uncover the real story. How is this a good thing?

Well, first off, it offers a challenging style of gameplay that keeps the older, more experienced Sonic fans on their toes. That Avalanche Monster is by no means easy to defeat within the time limit. However, younger, less skilled players aren't penalized, because even if you don't do those challenging feats, you can still progress through and beat the game. Unlike Shadow the Hedgehog, you don't just switch you mission at any given time. Instead, yes, beating to Zone a certain way would lead to a different level, but it's up to you to figure out how to do it. I call it the Star Fox 64 approach. But like I said before, doing the bare minimum opens up paths to less serious, and more irrelevant storylines, like the haunted house level stated below. Still entertaining though. The easy ending would be say, you taking out an Eggman mech... but it turns out to be unmanned. Sure you stopped its reign of terror, and saved the day, but Eggman's still out there. Where the more challenging paths lead to more intense, eath-shattering storylines. You'll find yourself in the middle of a war between the Eggman Empire and Black Aleins(for examples' sake), and the final battle will lead to his actual doomsday device in space.  

This whole "irrelevent stories" concept seems like a really bad idea, unless you want to make 'Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog: The Game'. Those players who pride the gameplay over the storyline and don't succeed in the 'defeat the "avalanche monster" before the level ends' challange will probably feel like they've been punished with something tedious and, indeed, comepletely irrelevent - and repeated failures as the game goes on could ruin the whole experience for a gamer - especially some of the more fickle Sonic fans.

However, the Tornado/Sky Chase level sounds good (although the idea of Sonic and Knuckles manning gun turrets could upset some fans - prehaps they could wing-walk and attempt to dodge or jump and attack on coming enemy robots like in the Sonic Advance 3 Special Stage) although I can see a better multiple ending scenario for the stage.
For example you could have the objective to have the piloting player peform a landing on Robotnik's airship before it initiates its thrusters/warp drive/cloaking device/whatever/etc. To make the objective easier, you could have an oppertunity to fire a missle (or maybe a techno-virus developed by Tails) at the airship to disable the aforementioned thrust/warp/cloak thing. If you get shot down yourself, instead of losing a life and restarting the level you'd crash land in a jungle and that'd be the next stage.

Another idea I'd like to put forward is the idea of long routes. For example in one route you could go from the first stage to the ending in, say 6/7 stages, whereas another map route would take something like 12 stages before you reached an ending.

I'd like to comeback with my own ideas for characters and movesets, but I leave this post as it is for now.

This whole "irrelevent stories" concept seems like a really bad idea, unless you want to make 'Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog: The Game'. Those players who pride the gameplay over the storyline and don't succeed in the 'defeat the "avalanche monster" before the level ends' challange will probably feel like they've been punished with something tedious and, indeed, comepletely irrelevent - and repeated failures as the game goes on could ruin the whole experience for a gamer - especially some of the more fickle Sonic fans.

Well, that's kinda the idea. You know how Sonic games traditionally have been since the beginning. Going through it at max speed without getting touched once is kinda like an art form. Poetry in motion. But before you were ever good at say, SA2's Final Rush, I'm sure you died DOZENS of times on your first run through it. We go back to any Sonic game we've beaten, whether it be Sonic 3, or Sonic Heroes, and we play through it like it's nothing. But we all remember that it wasn't that case the first time around. Especially on the later levels.

And that's pretty much the idea of the story. The story is the same no matter what character you pick. There's the map of levels. It is what it is. And in every level, there's something going on. Obviously, some things more crucial than others. So let's say you didn't beat that Avalanche Monster and now you're stuck in this cooky AoStH level. You still have a chance of finishing THAT level the right way, and getting back on track. But chances are, first time around, you'll be doing the more irrelevant missions the first time around. You'll do say, sevenish levels, get an ending that leaves something to be desired. But you see the map, and potential to reach other levels, so you play it again and again. You get better and better. Finding the right path will alter the level's experience completely, and you then feel an amazing sense of satisfaction that you finally got to go to the Launch Base, or Eggman Metropolis level on the map, rather than Ice Cap Zone that you got stuck on last time.

If you "fail" your mission so to speak, you still complete the level. But then the storyline character gets side-tracked. Some of these levels will be more childish and silly, some not so much. Let's say we redo Lava Reef Zone, or Red Mountain. Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, or whoever your party is, goes through this volcano level because you didn't do the secret objective of the last mission. So now you're on the more "Irrelevant Path." Now you find yourself in a deep underground cave. What's this? Boss. The Biolizard was warped via Chaos Control at the end of SA2. You discovered his resting place near the center of the Earth, and now you've woken him up, deep in this magma pit. Now you HAVE to shut him down, or he'll surface and terrorize the world once again. I've come up with different ways you'd fight him with your team, since the terrain is different from when Shadow fought him. He'd be climbing up on the ceiling and walls, bombing you with them gumballs, firing death rays. Flight character would have to stun him by reaching his weak spot. Speed character can homing attack his projectiles, and power character delivers the death blows. Rough idea so far.

But here's the deal... if you didn't fail the mission, before, and got to go to say, Eggman Metropolis instead of Red Mountain, you would have been on the more important path of taking down the Eggman Empire and his eventual Doomsday Device. The Biolizard never would have been an issue, because he was asleep and undisturbed deep below the Earth's crust. But because you got stuck in Red Mountain, say, taking out the Robot Factory deep below the volcano, it cause the Biolizard to awaken, thus making it an issue. This would be sort of a "Middle Path" mission. I'd say that there should be somewhere from 3-5 final outcomes. But unlike Shadow the Hedgehog, where they directly contradict each other, and become irrelevant with the "Final Ending," these events in every level will be taking place. But if you make it to the most challenging ending, taking out Eggman's Doomsday Device in Space, by defeating him, and his control opperation, all other smaller operations, and other endings you may have missed, such as the Giant Mech terrorizing Station Square in that "other" final level, will also be accounted for. By destroying the "Death Egg" or whatever it may turn out to be, out in Space, that giant mech from the other final level, will have been shut off in the Death Egg Control room.

However, if you take one of the less important endings, you will be lead simply to fight that Giant Mech in Station Square. The game ends, but the camera looms over to the Death Egg out in space, to know that you didn't work hard enough for the final ending.

Unlike Sonic Heroes, where you just mindlessly play the same game over and over again, just to unlock the Final Story, this game is literally a new experience every time you play it again. Whichever team you decide to play as in single player mode does not effect the story at all. If you pick Team Heroes for example, the basic premise would be, President and GUN, discover Eggman's plan to build a Doomsday Device in space. They call upon Sonic to stop Eggman. Sonic meets Tails and Knuckles along the way, and the cutscenes and outcome are based on what levels you make it to.

If you however, decide to play as Team Dark, however, it's the same premise from the start. Only GUN calls on Shadow for help, who eventually meets up with Rouge and Omega. It's kinda like a throwback to the old games, where it didn't matter if you played through at Sonic or Tails. The story and events will still be interesting and engaging. But it would be more based on, "what's going on in this level" rather than, characters crossing paths in a clear straight path from beginning to end.

So no, you wouldn't have to play as EVERYONE to beat the game. Beating the game is only a matter of how you play. But because of the difficulty, you will be forced to play over several times to get the REAL ending through challenges. However, you'll be playing virtually a different game every time, since you'll be discovering different paths in each level every time, different levels throughout, and different events depending on the path you take. Playing as different characters is just a bonus.

And of course, in co-op multiplayer, you aren't confined to a "set team." Meaning you can go in as say, Omega, Charmy, and Silver if you wanted.

It all sounds pretty complex, but it's really simple once you lay it all down.

Silv wrote:

---

Well, that's kinda the idea. You know how Sonic games traditionally have been since the beginning. Going through it at max speed without getting touched once is kinda like an art form. Poetry in motion. But before you were ever good at say, SA2's Final Rush, I'm sure you died DOZENS of times on your first run through it. We go back to any Sonic game we've beaten, whether it be Sonic 3, or Sonic Heroes, and we play through it like it's nothing. But we all remember that it wasn't that case the first time around. Especially on the later levels.

And that's pretty much the idea of the story. The story is the same no matter what character you pick. There's the map of levels. It is what it is. And in every level, there's something going on. Obviously, some things more crucial than others. So let's say you didn't beat that Avalanche Monster and now you're stuck in this cooky AoStH level. You still have a chance of finishing THAT level the right way, and getting back on track. But chances are, first time around, you'll be doing the more irrelevant missions the first time around. You'll do say, sevenish levels, get an ending that leaves something to be desired. But you see the map, and potential to reach other levels, so you play it again and again. You get better and better. Finding the right path will alter the level's experience completely, and you then feel an amazing sense of satisfaction that you finally got to go to the Launch Base, or Eggman Metropolis level on the map, rather than Ice Cap Zone that you got stuck on last time.

If you "fail" your mission so to speak, you still complete the level. But then the storyline character gets side-tracked. Some of these levels will be more childish and silly, some not so much.

But that's what I'm saying. Why yould you do that to the player in the first place? A player that sucks at getting the, shall we say, "good story" exits will be bombarded with the "lame story" stages time and time again - and they will feel like their being punished for lack of skill. You make the comparison of Final Rush, but its not the same. When you died countless times in Final Rush, you always started again at the start or at a checkpoint, and the outcome for finally finishing the stage would be the same no matter how bad you did - only the Rank would alter depending your performance. What you yourself are describing sounds more like this: "If (in Sonic Adventure for example) you do badly in a Sonic action stage, you'd be forced to do a Big the Cat fishing stage next".
I mean sure, having an alternative exit for not completing an in-stage objective is a fantastic concept, and I'm not debating that - just as long as its not a totally lame stage with a totally lame storyline that would make eternal damnation a reasonable alternative for the player. Unless its the overall theme of the entire game, no one wants to be force fed the "childish and silly" elements of a game.

(This is purely an example based on my personal feelings towards what I feel are the weakest parts of Sonic Adventure. Please don't reply saying "I liked the Big stages", because I'm not debating that... plus I don't care.)

I think the point Blue is trying to make is that the "easy route" should still have interesting parts of the overall story and quality gameplay. In Star Fox 64, which Silv credits as inspiration, nearly every level had a mission that involved defending a key location from Venomian forces or taking out one of the major units in Andross's fleet.

An extended example of one possible set of alternative routes.

Sky Chase > (Successfully land on airship) > Airship Level >
(Destroy ship's main engine causing it to crash) > Outskirts of
Metropolis
Sky Chase > (Successfully land on airship) > Airship Level >
(Airship reaches destination) > Eggman's Base
Sky Chase > (Get shot down) > Jungle Level > (Find ruins in
heart of Jungle) > Ancient Ruins Level > Ancient Stone
Collossus(Boss) > (Defeat of Boss triggers fall into an underground cavern) > Cave level > (Find way out of Caves) > Sewers of Metropolis
Sky Chase > (Get shot down) > Jungle Level > (Find way out of Jungle) > Outskirts of Metropolis

Of course, this is just throwing ideas out there.

Well, thing is, taking from the SF64 inspiration, if you in fact mess up on a level, and don't get the desired path, then you have the option to redo the level at the cost of one life. In Sonic games, extra lives come around a lot more easily than in Star Fox, so having this option definitely would help the cause.

I mean, let's say we have an Eggman Base level. You have to make it to the end, and continue to persue Eggman, who is trying to escape the "under attack" base to a more secure location. But as a last ditch effort, he plans on launching a missile at a GUN Base with his retreat. Your objective obviously, is to get to the end of the level, and chase down Eggman. But you also have to hit, say, several switches to deactivate the missile launch sequence. Let's say, it's fifteen minutes. Very much like a Chaotix level in Sonic Heroes, you can checkpoint your way to backtrack. But if you fail to stop the missile launch within the time limit, then instead of pursuing Eggman to his next base of retreat, you are forced to chase down the missile in another "Sky Chase" level. Certain levels like this are just a fail or success. You have to shoot the missile down. We don't want *gasp* death in a Sonic game. And so, since you are so close to this GUN base, after shooting down the missile, you receive a distress call, and are forced to assist GUN Troops on the GUN Island Zone, instead of doing the straight up, legit mission of pursuing Eggman to the Launch Base.

Now... the whole idea of failure and success is what offers a replay value. The idea of these levels is that they are fun to play. And the first time around, you may be fine with "failing" the mission, because you want to see every aspect of the game. But next time around, it's hammer time. But of course, failure is a part of gaming. I'm sure all of you had to redo levels of Shadow the Hedgehog, due to failure not allowing you to get to the desired level. Same goes for Star Fox 64.

As for the irrelevant, more childish storylines... I feel that Sonic the Hedgehog as a whole, has many different aspects to it. AoStH, and Sonic Riders shows a very slapstick, silly, up-beat side to the series. SA2, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic 06, showed storylines with well, a greater sense of urgency.

I honestly like the silly, up-beat idea of the Haunted House level. With say, a team consisting of Team Rose, characters with quite possibly the lowest skill level, you'd find yourself easily taking that path. But teams like Team Sonic, or Team Dark, would have a much easier time getting through the harder levels. I mean, to get through levels of "middle priority" all you'd really have to do is pay attention to your teammates, who will hint you of objectives. Some would be more clear than others.

I'd hardly call that Haunted House level a punishment to the level of being forced to go fishing. Yeah, you're totally side-tracked from the Eggman's Doomsday Device main objective, but it's still fairly entertaining. Who wouldn't want to fight zombies in a haunted castle as Sonic the Hedghog?

If I got through my first run of the game doing missions like that, I wouldn't be disappointed, as long as the gameplay isn't epic fail. I mean, in terms of getting to "middle priority missions," I wouldn't be so cruel as to suggest making the objectives so difficult that it's unplayable. I'd say something along the lines of Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog is a fair difficulty. But the idea is to make the game a new experience every time, rather than just making it redundant. I really felt like I forced myself to get the "Final Story" of Sonic Heroes, just because I wanted to see Metal Sonic so badly.

I mean, technically, you wouldn't be required to finish the game several times, to unlock a "final story." The idea is to make the player WANT to play again and again, for the satisfaction of seeing what happens in each different path. And if they are forced to play a level again, they can really experience it in a new way every time depending on what character they go in with. Of course, the most satisfying ending, will be the absolute hardest to achieve. Middle priority endings would be pretty basic Sonic game difficulty. And the cooky levels means you just aren't trying, or are playing with Team Rose without any upgrades.

The game would be whatever the player makes of it. But I doubt even kids would find themselves completely STUCK on the worst levels more than one time over.

Who wouldn't want to fight zombies in a haunted castle as Sonic the Hedghog? 

I, for one. And if you really want that in a game, just get Sega All-Stars Tennis. You get to kill House of the Dead zombies as Sonic with, get this, tennis balls! I'm not kidding. And its pretty funny too. But it only works because its not an in-universe scenario.

Seriously though, if the idea of a Werehog managed to upset fans, then Sonic fighting zombies probably wouldn't fare much better.

Now if they were, say, broken and mangled "zombie" badniks that populated a haunted house style level (like Mystic Mansion), I'd be agreeing with you whole-heartedly. It'd be like seeing the badniks in the Future stages of Sonic CD, where they're a little it broken and rusty after a long time has passed - like so:

So imagine playing through a dumping ground of failed and partly damaged badnik attempts, neglected by Robotnik, and maybe somewhat..."unhinged?" (lol). Now that I'd love to see.

A fine idea that is. But personally, I don't see it as devastating as the Werehog. First reason being, it would just be in one, silly, irrelevant zone, as opposed to being anything close to the main focus of the game, like the Werehog was. Second case, I mean, Sonic has fought ghosts before. This concept had never been seen until SA2. They just appeared as regular enemies in the Pyramid levels, and as a random boss fight for Knuckles. No biggie. It was light-hearted, and cartoony. As would this "haunted house" level.

Not diggin't it still? Well, chances are since you seem to not be a young, feeble child under the age of ten, that you probably wouldn't end up stuck on this level on your first run through the game anyways. That's the beauty of it. Just imagine doing levels like this the first two times over, and then one day, BAM! You managed a completely different path, and all of a sudden, it's like, WOAH! Instead of this cooky Haunted House level, I'm running through some futuristic city that's being swarmed with mechs, a digital warp portals that mess with the path! OH EM GEE! And Eggman is firing a death ray from up above. I dunno...totally random scenario off the top of my head.

I just think those altering zones definitely gives you a more rewarding feeling when you actually uncover the path to Eggman's Launch Base, and Flying Fortress.

One thing that I love about Sonic is that it's very open-ended in terms of the world, and possibilities. Throughout the years, the games have taken players from lush green paradise, to snowy ice caps, deserts, volcanoes, ruins, futuristic cities, haunted houses, military bases, apocalyptic wastelands, virtual reality, and even outer space. Some games are very light-hearted and silly in nature, like say, Sonic Riders, and the bulk of Heroes. Others are more dark, and urgent, like Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic 06. Others seem to blend the formula a lot, like the Adventure titles.

The idea behind this game is to offer every type of experience depending on how you play. This "Eggman Metroplis" level I keep talking about, is something I have in mind that is something that looks and feels a lot like the futuristic cities in Sonic CD, or Robotroplis from the Sonic OVA(not to be confused with SatAM's Robotroplis) Bright Neon Lights, yet dark and eerie. Obviously a massive military operation of Eggman's. So it would be swarming with robots, and search lights with the iconic "Eggman Face" symbol seen on the Egg Carrier. Missiles flying everywhere, yaddy yaddy yadda.

The Launch Base Zone of his Flying Fortress(which eventually leads to his doomsday device in space), would be directly modeled after Sonic 3's Launch Base Zone. Throwback levels like Ice Cap Zone or Lava Reef will resemble their Sonic Adventure Counterparts in design(Ice Cap and Red Mountain), but would be designed completely differently in terms of the map and structure.

I wasn't a big fan of Shadow the Hedgehog, but some of their level designs were fantastic. So some of the more challenging, heavier story-based paths will lead to levels that look more like that. Of course, there will be plenty of zones that are completely new and original, not even referencing at all to any old games.

There were things people liked about critically acclaimed "bad" Sonic games. There were things people liked about Heroes, Shadow, 06, and Unleashed. So I'm basically saying, out with the bad, in with the good.

And onto a more, "Sonic Unleashed" related note.

Speed.

It's something Sonic fans unanimously agree on. And what Sonic Unleashed offered, was some good, hard speed. I do believe Sonic has never been faster. However, I felt it was too much speed, not enough platforming, and combat, which are also aspects of Sonic games that have made them fun. How do we create this balance? Some would say Sonic 06 and Heroes had TOO MUCH mindless brawling. In terms of the Werehog, it seemed like that's all it was.

Well, let's just get one thing perfectly clear to start. Before we start worrying about balance, and alienation of one Sonic crowd to another. What is one thing we can all agree that is BAD? What is something that could possibly make this game that seems wonderful on paper, actually a load of crap? Things that have hindered gameplay before in Sonic games?

Simply put... slowness.

We can all agree, whether we prefer more running, brawling, or platforming, that in any of these three cases, SLOW = BAD.

The most hated characters in terms of playability in SA1 were the mindlessly slow Big and Amy. People disliked the treasure hunting levels and shooting levels in SA2 because they were slow. Why were the shooting levels in SA1 not criticized as much? Well, because quite frankly because Gamma, while no Sonic or Knuckles, was not particularly slow. A big complaint from Sonic Heroes, was that for some parts, the gameplay felt smooth, but the switching just slowed things down. Tails and Knuckles were slow. The fights seemed out of place and boring, and it was too much stop and go. Sonic 06 comes out and everyone is like, "WTF? Why is Sonic so slow?" And playing as anyone else was pretty much a crime against nature.

So by all means, we are not going to make ANY of these characters mind-numbingly slow. But then, how do we differentiate them from Speed characters? What will make Speed characters so special if no one is really slow? Well, a reasonable speed for say, Tails and Knuckles, would be Gamma's speed in SA1. Sure, he wasn't the "fastest thing alive" but navigating through Adventure Fields wasn't painful with him, the way it was with Big and Amy.

And of course, because some parts of the levels will be the same for everyone, by all means, Tails and Knuckles can run through speed ramps to achieve even SA1 level speeds at some points. I'm already envisioning Omega going through speed ramps. At his max speed, he's just kinda floating down a corridor with his booster ignited behind him, as he locks onto, and fires at attacking robots as he speeds by them.

Speed characters now, will achieve Sonic Unleashed levels of speed. In single player mode, the game will NOT be on a rail system, but playing through it as Sonic will be incredibly fast-paced, requiring lightning-like reflexes from scaling walls, to homing through badniks over death pits. Some segments will have Sonic being bombed at by unseen enemies from above, to keep him moving. So, very much like in Sonic Unleashed, you'll be running constantly. And if you mess up, you don't particularly worry about slowing down... you worry about dying. Example: Sonic is running through this "Eggman Metropolis" level. Sonic is basically running really fast through corridors open streets, and alleyways. The city is brightly lit, but Sonic is being bombed occasionally by an unseen aircraft whenever he reaches open streets. So while he isn't on a rail system, where he's constantly moving, stopping wouldn't be advised. There will be parts where he has to wall-jump and homing attack his way over death traps. Then perhaps, Sonic is flung up a ramp, and launched into the sky. He lands on a floating platform. The other one is WAY too far away for him to reach. But far off at the end, is the source of the bombing... that floating aircraft. It's firing at you. While you can dodge these attacks, or intercept them with your homing attack, you can't stay on defense forever. But the other platforms that lead to him are too far between. This would be a sinch for a flying character. Instead, you notice flying badniks zipping by every few seconds. Because this is a speed character, and requires lightning reflexes, Sonic must wait for these badniks to fly by, and homing attack them at the right time, so he could reach the next platform. All at the same time, this bomber is still firing at you.

And basically, you have to get closer and closer, until you reach this bomber. This will happen several times throughout the level. If you fall too soon, you die. About halfway too him, you notice safe ground beneath you, so if he shoots you down, and fall, you resume the level. Only he's still bombing you on the ground. This would happen, say, three times throughout the level?

This of course, would be one of the later levels, where your palms sweat and stick to your controller. Earlier levels will have lightning-fast speed for Speed characters, however, like all first levels, you'd pretty much be flying through the obstacles gracefully and without trouble.

So as you can see, there would still be platforming and brawling aspects to Speed-Based characters... but playing through a level as a speed-based character would focus more on speed than these two things. Platforming, obviously would be a little more tricky for them, since they don't have the luxury of flight or gliding. However, Speed characters like Sonic, have an easier time than flight characters on dealing with enemies, but for the most part, can zip right past many of them, unless they happen to be directly in their way, or block off a room.

Flying characters will still run through levels Sonic-Adventure style, but it would be more based on platforming, and flying from far off places to another with precision, while also avoiding enemy attacks. Bombing from above would be recommended. Sometimes enemies will need to be destroyed to be able to progress. Like that one badnik up there sitting on that far off platform, waiting for you to land. But that's what projectiles are for.

Power characters like Knuckles and Omega, once again, can still do decent running, SA1 style, through levels, and have much easier times taking out those big enemies, such as the bomber, with their abilities to glide, and pummel it in one shot. But since they don't have Lightning-fast speed, and can't just fly over most of their obstacles, fighting will be more often the solution. But no worries. At several given points, ANY character may be forced to take on a large enemy blocking a room. So that's where their massive power comes in. Flick em' away like they're nothing. Power characters are not as good at dodging multiple threats the way speed characters are. Example: Let's say we have three big Sonic 06' style mechs blocking the path to the next room. They are all firing missiles at you from every angle. A Speed-type character could actually Homing Attack these missiles, all the way to the enemy, and just hit em' unscratched. However, they'd have to hit each mech maybe three times, whereas the Power character can just run up to it, hit it once, and call it a day.

Basically, it keeps all classes fairly balance. Remember, this isn't as complex as it sounds. All levels are designed the same no matter who you go in as. The only difference would be, yes, certain character types will have exclusive paths at some point or another in each level. There would also be other paths that ANY character type could access.

Each level will have three said elements in them. Running/Reflex work, platforming, and brawling. All, Sonic game style stuff we're familiar with. No matter who you play as, all three of these elements will be present in each level. However, how much of each, depends on who you're playing as. So if you liked that rush you got from Sonic Unleashed, you'd probably enjoy going through the level as a Speed character. However, it will make up for the shortcomings of Unleashed, in that it won't be on rails(so it plays Adventure style), and there will be SOME platforming and mandatory badnik combat, but for the most part, it's all speed, and you're zipping past the giant mechs. It definitely focuses a lot more on dodging that which he can't break, and breaking through everything else.

If you love speed, but can't handle that ridiculous pace of Sonic Unleashed/style play, and wanna play it like SA platformer-based stuff, pick a flight character. You'll still be running fast, and there will be plenty of it, but you'll be worrying more about death pits, and platforms, and aerial boosters. But don't expect that to be the easy way out! Badniks and other enemies will give you a hard time. Keep your distance whenever possible.

Well, that flight character was pretty good. The extreme speed of Sonic was just too much, but Tails was frustratingly weak, and you hate being on the retreat. Time to knuckle up(no pun intended) with your power character. Pretty self-explanatory here. You get the picture.

But by NO MEANS, will any of them be SLOW(well, maybe Big). Sonic fans do not deserve to be punished like that ever again. The missions within the level can be accomplished in single player by any character type. However, different character types will handle the situations differently. Some scenarios may be exclusive to different types of characters. Let's say, perhaps, the power character can avoid the bomber altogether, by busting open a path that leads to the sewer systems of the level.

Co-op mode would sort of play like "hard mode." More spikes, more badniks(that are more intellegent), and more death traps.

And finally getting to the last part of your post... that "dumping ground" level you mentioned, seems like it would be an AWESOME idea as well. If the masses spoke against a zombie level, I wouldn't be so stubborn into forcing it in, since it's such an unimportant aspect of the game. Zombie Badniks would get the point across just as well.