4 points, really. Letting Shadow encompass his own only goes to show how much of a spotlight stealer he is. The true 5th point should have been to abandon the over-the-shoulder 3D camera gameplay we've been subjected to all this time and boldly return to the platform-hopping, manual loop-defying 2D style that helped make Rush the better game in recent years... without the need for unnecessary speed boosts littering the track and death pits at every step.
A solid, true Sonic experience. Where falling to the bottom of the stage rewards you with a less ring-laden route to travel, not instant death.
That being said the 2D games did have their pitfalls of doom as well.
It would be impossible to say that you haven't fallen to you doom in such stages as Wing Fortress or Flying Battery.
That article is full of BS. Not because I think the series is fine (I don't) but because they got all the wrong reasons. It's all cosmetic.
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1. Ditch the tagalongs
While the issue of the number of characters is the problem, they got Sonic's character wrong. He's not a loner but a social party animal. Meaning, he will meet new people constantly. And he had a tag along and character interaction since Sonic 2. Fanart of yaoi isn't the problem either. And if no one likes the characters, why were some people upset when Mighty wasn't in Sonic Heroes? The problem isn't the characters. The problem is that they're used all wrong
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2. That goes double for Shadow the Hedgehog.
Again, he's used all wrong. No one hates him. People just hate how he's always in everything.
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3. Faster, Sonic, kill! Kill!
This proves the little credilibty of what they know about Sonic. Sonic games ARE NOT ALWAYS ABOUT SPEED! How long will before people will get that into their heads? And if they had sense they would know that Sonic Riders actually takes skill, unlike most of the video games here. It does take skill and reflective that article missed.
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4. Conversely, slow down
This is the only that makes sense
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5. Here's where the story ends
What they want is not an epic story but an excuse to give Sonic an adventure. There was this game called Sonic Heroes that did that and very few enjoyed the simple story. And what good is a story if I don't like it. The U.S. Sonic 2 story was so simple, yet I find it to be one of the better video game stories, because it actually felt like I had a purpose.
This was basically fluff that shouldn't be considered until Sonic Team makes the coding of the game better. Also, just because a Sonic is in 2D doesn't mean it automatically be good. Are forgetting about the Game Gear games?
Here's my solution:
Cut back on the characters, yes. But a Sonic only game literarly only seeing Sonic and no one else wouldn't cut in this day and age
Better controls and camera: Probably the only thing that requires the series to be saved
An ENJOYABLE story. It doesn't matter if it's an epic or only mentioned in the manual.
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Also, just because a Sonic is in 2D doesn't mean it automatically be good. Are forgetting about the Game Gear games?
Personally Sonic Blast/G Sonic would only apply with that statement. What would you rather play, Sonic Genesis (GBA) or Sonic 1 (GG)?
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Maybe Sega should give Sonic to Nintendo, They actuually pull off a great 3-D Game.
how can you say that. i love nintendo but no way should they sell sonic. thats most likely the craziest thing i've ever heard *covers ears*
if that ever happens than i will through away everything i own that says sega or sonic the hedgehog away, thats a promise (well maybe sell most of it)
It's like choosing between losing my left or right eye? Sonic 1 (GG) was decent for an hour. And my brother has Sonic Genesis and he says it's not that bad (though I told him about the problems)
the only people who can do sonic right is Sega. I'm sorry but I can't picture him with anybody else. They just gotta relearn some tings.
i think if they can actually get voice overs for npc and have at least a decent loading time than i think what ever sega has planned next for sonic will be great.
Makes me wonder when they will announce something new.
I read that 1up article...and it failed to impress me. Why can't these "professionals" understand that:
A) Speed is not, nor should it be, the sole foundation of the Sonic franchise. Speed was a gimmick Sega used to draw gamers away from Mario. The classic Sonics were great, because they beautifully balanced speed, platforming, combat, level exploration, and ring collection. They used Sonic Rush as their example of a great Sonic. Hah. Don't get me started over how outside of the music, Rush was as forgettable as Sonic Advance 2.
B) I'm sick of the "no new character" schlock. Yeah, we shouldn't be bombarded with dozens of critters either. But a little gameplay diversity, say, five or six playable characters with their own interesting play styles are more than fine. Because when it comes down to it, Sonic is a cardboard hero. If he were the lone hero 1up claims him to be, the series would've grown trite by the third installment. I like multiple characters, so long as they play as well and fun as Sonic.
C) Story matters. Especially to modern Sonic fans. In this day and age, no one buys a game if it doesn't have a story. Although I agree that 2006's Elise affair was a questionable plotline.
And lastly, the article was written by Jeremy Parish. The only one I would trust writing about Sonic over there any more is Shane Bettanhausen.
Hm. You pose a very interesting counter to that argument. And I can't even disagree with you.
Well execept for the part about your opinion on writers. I know nothing about these people.
Abac Child:
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how can you say that. i love nintendo but no way should they sell sonic. thats most likely the craziest thing i've ever heard *covers ears*
When Sega turns out a string of quality games that stars the blue boy again instead of the yearly holiday cash-ins, then maybe people will stop saying "I wish 'quality company that is not Sega' would make Sonic games".
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if that ever happens than i will through away everything i own that says sega or sonic the hedgehog away, thats a promise (well maybe sell most of it)
And what if said company actually makes a better Sonic game than Sega did over the past few years?
D.B. Vulpix:
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the only people who can do sonic right is Sega.
Except that the best Sonic game in the past few years was made by DIMPS
And yes, I know the game is flawed and it feels like a Sonic Advance 2 done right, but if I had the choice of playing Rush to say...Heroes, Shadow, or Sonic2K6, I definately wouldn't choose those last three.
Though, if I was going to apply Erin's statement to this, then it definately speaks in volumes in how bad this series has become.
Erinaceus:
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C) Story matters. Especially to modern Sonic fans. In this day and age, no one buys a game if it doesn't have a story.
So would you tell me what are the stories of the highly successful Brain Training and the Nintendogs games?
And people complain about the characters, because they really seem unfun/un-Sonic-like to play as for many people. I mean, you wouldn't believe how excited some folks outside of the Sonic community was anticipating Sonic Wii, just because Sonic was the only playable character in the main game.
And SonicV2, who really gave a darn about Mighty other than a few old-school fans who still kept up with the franchise?
Ask the people who wondered where Mighty was. There's also Nack, Bean, Bark, and a bunch of others. The point I made is that people care about the characters, no matter how many there are
I think Toastyfrog was looking at it from a general gamer's stand point, not from the eyes of a hardcore Sonic fan minority.
Well they just proved that the general gamers don't know enough about Sonic to have a say in what needs to be done.
Chances are that those general gamers he are talking about are the ones who used to like Sonic up until SA1/2 and/or SH. :-p
Oh.....o.o
The article is still B.S.
Instead of making new batches of characters they could bring back old ones. I'd like to play as Bean or Bark...but Mostly Bean. DYNAMITE!!!
And some characters like the Babylon Rogues I'm fine with. If another Sonic Riders game were to be made then I'd like to see them there. But probably not anywhere else.
I do disagree that his remark that Sonic should be "ALL ABOUT SPEED". Yes Sonic should be a speedy character, but he was also about platforming and taking alternative paths within the level. Physics was also important and that went along with the speed, which has been in the 3D games.
Too bad that Sega seems to agree that Sonic is only about speed. And people say they still the best company to do Sonic right. Why again?
However, I won't really argue against his other points.
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Instead of making new batches of characters they could bring back old ones. I'd like to play as Bean or Bark...but Mostly Bean. DYNAMITE!!!
Oh GOD NO! I hate to see what the new Bean and Bark will turn out like if Sega is failing to handle their current cast of critters correctly.
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And people complain about the characters, because they really seem unfun/un-Sonic-like to play as for many people.
That's because starting in Sonic Adventure Sonic Team got stupid and started making characters have completely different games for no reason, instead of having different abilities. It worked with Gamma and to some extent Amy, but then they immediately screwed it up in SA2 by making the emerald hunts a chore and slowing down the shooters for no reason.
Sonic-only is generally not a good thing. In Secret Rings, his abilities are customizable, whch is pretty much the same thing as having multiple characters.
Other than getting rid of Shadow and convoluted storylines, which are just decoration anyway, I completely disagree with 1up's editorial. He doesn't have a clue how Sonic works and other than his whining about characters STH360 was basically a response to people like him.
SONIC IS NOT SPEED. Repeat x Infinity
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. He doesn't have a clue how Sonic works and other than his whining about characters STH60 was basically a response to people like him.
I wouldn't say the game is a response to folks who think like him seeing in addition to the large cast, he also complained that Sega tries to make Sonic stories needlessly complex.
And I wouldn't say Sonic-only is a bad thing. Aren't Sonic 1, Sonic CD, and Sonic 2(cause let's face it, Tails was a 100% clone of Sonic) reguarded as remarkable classics in the gaming industry just as much as Sonic 3 & K?
The complaints over convoluted stories are pretty new, since Shadow, and MOSTLY since STH360. Really his opinion was pretty much Sonic only, polish more, and lots of speed (heard it a million times), besides the new complaint about stories (which wasn't a problem before people reacted so negatively to the simple story of SH).
Heroes press releases emphasized the branching paths and gameplay. STH360 was all about how to was supposed to be the greatest sensation of speed ever. Press releases are exaggerations but they give us an idea of the image SEGA is trying to project. SA2 was built around the 3 most popular games in SA. SEGA does seem to listen to fans, but with the exception of Heroes, they've been getting the wrong messages.
A good Sonic game can be Sonic only, as shown by those 3 games, but S3&K's almost unanimous superiority was largely a result of 3 playable characters who were similar enough to make it a cohesive game but different enough to be fun to play. The other titles had slightly superior settings, art, and music, with the exception of gems like Flying Battery and Sandopolis.
The point, though, is that the whole character complaint is kind of silly. If SEGA didn't turn every character into a requirement to access a last story and pointlessly make some slower for "variety," you could put 50 playables in the game and there would be no problem because it would be a bonus. Can you think of any other series where a huge number of characters is a complaint instead of a selling point? Marvel vs. Capcom 2 had 52 playables and that was pretty much the main attraction of the game (you don't have to play as everybody, though, which is an important difference).
It's kind of a pet peeve argument, right after SONIC IS SPEED, because I like some of the supporting characters, and the argument makes no logical sense. Going Sonic-only provides no gameplay advantage whatsoever besides preventing Sonic Team from doing more of the "last story" crap.
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Can you think of any other series where a huge number of characters is a complaint instead of a selling point? Marvel vs. Capcom 2 had 52 playables and that was pretty much the main attraction of the game (you don't have to play as everybody, though, which is an important difference).
But MvsC2 is a fighting game--a genre where multiple chracters are expected. I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison concerning the traditional Sonic platformers. I mean you can do a solo-Sonic game and many people outside of the fan community wouldn't even bat an eye on it.
Also, since you also said that in Secret Rings, Sonic seems to gain different abilities like the different abilites as his friends, wouldn't that be more of a case for the people who are against his, as someone I know usually says, "s****y friends" for being playable. :-p I mean why add several multiple playable characters, when you can just have the title character as the customizable entity?
I think in addition to the complaint of being forced to play as all the other characters to actually finish the game, there is also the complaint that many of these characters steal Sonic's spotlight or Sonic is comparably gimped to the other chracter's abilities. Didn't Sonic recieve the most levels in S3&K and plus he was the only character that utilized the elemental shields in interesting ways?
Certainly I've got to agree that Sonic shouldn't be the "no powers" character like he is in the Advance series. He should definitely get some advantages of his own. A more subtle example, besides the shields, is Sonic's higher jump than Knuckles, which made some bosses easier and even opened up paths. S3&K handled it really well. Every character ran at the same speed, but Sonic's powers, including the awesome insta-shield, made his game play faster, while Knuckles and Tails had powers that gave them advantages (I don't think there's any area Sonic can reach that Tails can't), but their exploration advantages were balanced with slower specialties. They could play the basic fast and free game if they didn't use those powers but Sonic got a slight boost.
In 3D I think the homing spin and light dash play a similar role, and other speedy moves could be added too, but Shadow's clone nature kind of screwed up Sonic's individuality. Sonic got grinding and then they made the mistake of building entire levels around it and everybody started doing it. Amy and Espio have abilities (hammer jump, hammer attacks, wall run, stealth, shuriken) that are way too interesting, especially in 3D, to be (less so than Shadow) Sonic clones. Everything's in the game design. One of the biggest things I really want to see in a well designed 3D Sonic game would be the possibilities of Espio on walls and ceilings Sonic X-Treme style, in a normal level with bonus paths to take advantage of it.
Customizing Sonic, of course, has a lot of potential, and could be better than loads of characters. I think it depends, as usual, on how they do it, though. Personally in an ideal game I'd take both. Games that let me try a ton of characters that play differently, like Advance Wars, or Mario Kart, are a lot more interesting. Some genres like RPGs and fighters are completely dependent on such a feature to even work (because, IMO, they are more shallow than platformers and strategy games). I don't think platformers are any different except by tradition, and the ability to work without such a gimmick. Multiple playables are not a requirement in a platformer that has depth, but they're always a bonus unless the developers screw up. Rockman & Forte was arguably the best of the Mega Man games, for example.
How I look at all of the characters is: "Why has 64 different flavours of ice cream when you can't get vanilla right?"
Sonic is vanilla. Ignoring all other characters for the moment and focus all of our attention on Sonic. Sonic is crap at the moment. He controls like poo off the shovel. While some would argue that is the whole point of the classic Sonic games, its definatley more noticeable in the 3D games.
And the thing is when you compare Sonic directly to his rivals. You notice that Sonic is the only one trying to do multiple playable characters in a game. Mario Sunshine, Jak series, R&C Series, Psychonauts, PoP series and hell the Tak series all have one (mostly) playable character with the odd segment as another. Sonic is the only one that's trying the whole multiple character thing.
Which is why I was looking forward to Sonic Next at first. It was meant to focus all of their energies on making Sonic good. Then Shadow and Silver popped in and then the Amigo character segments appeared for some reason. And there is no reason that they shouldn't have been great (because Sega is the greatest video games company in the world.) but for the pure reason that because Sonic is crap they all had to be crap.
That is why Secret Rings is looking more and more appealing. In the old days it would just be a spin off(Spinball). But because its actually focusing on Sonic and only Sonic it might just work. That's the one thing I hope that continues from Secret Rings.
Work on vanilla, then work on strawberry.
Also having stages that are designed ONLY for each particular character isn't as fun as using a character with different abilities to explore the same level in new ways. But as it is, exploring gets rewarded with glitches and falling death.
In 3D I think the homing spin and light dash play a similar role, and other speedy moves could be added too, but Shadow's clone nature kind of screwed up Sonic's individuality. Sonic got grinding and then they made the mistake of building entire levels around it and everybody started doing it. Amy and Espio have abilities (hammer jump, hammer attacks, wall run, stealth, shuriken) that are way too interesting, especially in 3D, to be (less so than Shadow) Sonic clones. Everything's in the game design. One of the biggest things I really want to see in a well designed 3D Sonic game would be the possibilities of Espio on walls and ceilings Sonic X-Treme style, in a normal level with bonus paths to take advantage of it.
Fan fricking tastic. Exactly what I wanted to say, but can't really form into words. If they actually worked it out, and gave the Triple Threat the SAME levels, but with their own abilities creating different paths-I'd be fine with it.
Give Espio a path that only he could reach via wall climbing and stealth ninjary, that's fantastic.
Amy-ehh, well she's not meant to be fast, so hey, make that hammer work.
I have nothing against Sonic games having a story. I mean nowadays I can play agame for the story if I have no book to read. I love stories and stories in video games. Theres nothing wrong with that and if Sega can get it to work right in Sonic then more power to them. It's just that they have to get it right.
And Mario has a horde of characters that everyone loves...but I'm not sure if that applies here.
Maybe if they slacked off all the extra extra characters and try to perfect the most prominant characters. Especially Characters like Knuckles. To me his character has been watered down too much.
To get a story right in Sonic you have to combine the simplicity of the old games with something a lot more entertaining, but not too deep. The best example that comes to mind right now is Wind Waker, while a mostly simple story, it's deep enough to be entertaining without being the major focus of the game, which is the gameplay and fun. IMO, Sonic Adventure got the blend right, in Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails' stories at least. Gamma's was a great side story too.
Wewt! I know we all want to go fishing again!....or maybe not. But if Mighty is gone for good maybe Big can be exploited more for strength but oh God no more fishing.
And yes a good story dosen't have to created by Tolken or Lucas. It just takes some imaaaaaginaaatiooooon. *rainbow sign*
Everybody to your boxes!
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And Mario has a horde of characters that everyone loves...but I'm not sure if that applies here.
It doesn't since as John mentioned, Mario is usually the only playable character in the platformers. Shoot, most of the horde don't even appear in the platformers.
Most of the extra cast in the Mario games is only used for party, sports games, and spin-offs. Marios' main games only star Mario and maybe Luigi. With Super Mario 2 being the exception. Plus, Nintendo knows enough to space them out. Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy have you playing as Mario only, and are about 3-4 years apart each.
Now lets see them do that with Sonic.
I just went back and read that 1up article a little more closely...then stopped when Parish stated in the introduction saying that "Nowadays, Sonic is for hardcore fans living in denial and for casual gamers who haven't heard that his new games suck."
Parish says we all live in denial. Subtly in that comment, Parish is suggesting that the last decade of our time, money, energy, and affection have been a waste. Where I come from, idiotic schlock like that is fightin' words.
Who knows, maybe he was refering to the irrational ones like that Shadowshomeboy17 guy.
What Mario does isn't relevant on its own without some reason that a single character is an advantage. More characters = more value, as long as adding characters doesn't have some gameplay disadvantage like distributing EXP or unlocking the true boss. Heck, some Mario games have given different abilities to the brothers, and if you count SMB2/Doki Doki, 4 characters. In response to "if they can't get Sonic right," or use of development time arguments, I doubt that focusing on Sonic only would suddenly realign the brains of Sonic Team so that they know how to do it properly, and STH360 was so badly conceived that no amount of polish would make it work. Multiple characters playing the same levels in SA and SH actually led them to put in some small extra paths that played differently depending on who you picked.
Oh...and then I read on. He then goes on to say that "Sonic fans are so lame that they like to draw pictures of Tails having sex." Now he's calling the entire Sonic fanbase lame, then goes on associating us all with the very few furry fetishists in the lot? Well...I won't be renewing my EGM subscription. Not until Parish is gone, anyway, and probably not even then, as I find the 1up community to be the most closed-minded, most arrogant bunch of high-minded pricks on the face of the internet.
I think you are taking this a bit too personal.
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More characters = more value, as long as adding characters doesn't have some gameplay disadvantage like distributing EXP or unlocking the true boss.
Concerning platformers, I can't really say that this is true seeing that the only platformers I played and liked that featured multiple playbale characters were Sonic 3&K and to an extent, Sonic Adventure 1 and SMB2US and that I didn't get any less of a value for playing Yoshi Island 1 to S3&K.
I have thin skin...and I really don't like the forum community they have over there at 1up. Many of their forum memberes think only THEY know what's best for the series, even though the truth is that they haven't touched a Sonic title since Sonic 2.
Maybe it's because SA-era Sonic repels them so much that they don't want anything to do with it. It's not a new thing as there are even former Mario fans who come to despise Mario ever since he went 3D and opened his trap in SM64.
And having a thin skin on the interwebs is sort of a bad thing. I guarentee you that the 1up community is far from being the jaded and snarky place you will find on the web. Believe me there are far more worse places that exist.
Yeah... like The GHZ! 😀 😀 😀
ZING!
Spoilers (Select To Read): Though I like the GHZ.
Yeah, I like what they did with the stormtrooper avatar. XD I would have done it here if I wasn't too lazy to code in the javascript required to do it on EZBoard.
On multiple characters, it's definitely not a requirement for a good platformer, but I don't see how it can be anything but a bonus if done well, much like a hidden level or a good story that enhances gameplay. I'd add DKC2 to the list of platformers that have made multiple characters useful (the other DKC titles did not). Now that we're listing them, I'm actually kind of shocked that this hasn't been taken advantage of more often, at least in games I've played. Perhaps this has something to do with the difficulty of making characters and, especially in the days of no-plot platformers, their designs, marketable, appealing, and complementary while not being clones. SEGA was awesome at that back then, but the new Sonic Team is often not. If they were better at it, this wouldn't be an issue.
Another factor is the fanservice element, which may sound shallow, but it works if done well. Mario & Luigi was a great game in its own right, but if it wasn't loaded with fanservice and environments that were totally compatible with the Mario universe, I wouldn't have been so blown away by it.
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Another factor is the fanservice element, which may sound shallow, but it works if done well.
Yes, I agree it does. But this is current sonic team here. Even if they brought our favorite lost characters back they would butcher them to unlikeability (Vector's 2nd and well known 4kids engish voice). Which is the sad realization: either way we loose =(
Spoilers (Select To Read): Who doesn't like the GHZ?
I do kinda agree with you about characters = longevity. But the problem is if it isn't a good game than no amount of characters will save it. Not even Metal Sonic.
I mean take the R&C series there are segments where you play as Ratchet alone or Clank alone or Giant Clank and they don't actually play all that differently in terms of controls but they offer different experiences. Ratchet alone is more shooting and less platforms, Clank alone offers a kind of Oddworld style of game and Giant Clank is where you are Gojira.
Now it shouldn't be impossible to offer unique spins on the Sonic gameplay (Like S3&K and SA) while keeping Sonic fun. I still think it could have worked on Sonic Next but they never finished it.
Ah yeah, I forgot about the DKC series--though that's expected from someone who never got into it after being unimpressed of the first game.
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I do kinda agree with you about characters = longevity. But the problem is if it isn't a good game than no amount of characters will save it. Not even Metal Sonic.
Yup, and no amount of Sonic soloness will turn a turd of a game into a masterpiece, either. The whole issue of characters has gotten blown out of proportion simply because it's one of many things Sonic Team hasn't been executing optimally in the SA era.
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Ah yeah, I forgot about the DKC series--though that's expected from someone who never got into it after being unimpressed of the first game.
I'd suggest trying out DKC2 on an emulator, because I hear this a lot. The game seems to be very overlooked for some reason and I'm going to go start a topic about it in GA to explain why I like it so much.
I think we just need a Sonic game that breaks free of the current 3D Tradition
Complete Game with X00 characters > get all Chaos Emeralds > LAST STORY > Super Sonic > End.
Will there be any game that does this?
*hears Secret Rings coming down the road*
I think we have our winner!
Well...to explain my mini-rant against 1up...for quite some time now, I have been souring towards EGM and its parent website. I dislike how over the last few years the magazine itself has transformed from a straight-shooting news magazine, the way it was in the late 90's and early 00's, to the poorly-organized pop culture magazine that it is today. Changes are not always for the better sometimes...
And then there's the issue I've had with the forum community. I used to be a member, but got fed up with the community and left. What I could not tolerate was the fact that the community never took me or my opinions seriously simply because I'd still proclaimed to be a Sonic fan.
And these insults that Parish blatantly laid across the chin of the entire Sonic fandom...well that was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. My skin is thick enough to take the occasional insult and flame war...but the cumulative effect of such arrogance and stupidity makes me want to kill somebody. 
:">
Yes, because being teased about what you like justifies you killing someone.
I was half-joking.
Maybe not kill them...but hurt them, say give 'em a bloody nose or an injury that requires stitches...
And in regards to the reviewer I said I trusted...well, GameVideos, their video site just posted their review:
The guy advocating the game is, said trustee, Shane Bettanhausen.
I think people are trained and paid to say they don't like Sonic's American voice or ANYONE'S American voice in any game EVER. I mean who has the balls to ever admit they like something when everyone else says they don't?
But anyway. I have not played this game so if I had to make a comment based on their words....well they both seem to sound very honest. But to tell the truth it seems like the guy who was being a negative louse almost won the debate. He didn't have to scramble for words. But then again that might be because he's already trained to be a "Simon" of video games most likely.
